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Let's Tell-all about Tulsi
(02-07-2020, 01:48 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(02-06-2020, 05:58 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(02-06-2020, 11:41 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(02-06-2020, 06:40 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: One idea missing is that the migration is allowing people with more sympathy with western values a chance to westernize by simply moving west.  It does allow a few terrorists to leak in, but for the most part those with heavy autocratic, religious and tribal values are the ones that stay behind.  The result?  The places left behind like Syria and Iraq are getting worse by reverse mitosis.  The old values are slowly being concentrated.

Excellent points, but how does that play in the long run?  After all, Afghanistan is still pretty tribal, and some of the other 'stans', even moreso.  If the educated and openminded decide to leave, does the left-behind group degrade into some pre-modern tribal state, anarchy or something else entirely?  I'll be honest here: I haven't the foggiest idea.  

We're seeing similar activity in Central America, so this isn't a Muslim thing.  Doing nothing seems cruel, but doing something stupid is probably worse.

It seems to take centuries for a civilization to switch  say from Agricultural Age to Industrial Age culture.  The transitions are often ugly, with civil wars and revolutions in the west, Napoleon and Fascism in Europe, communism in Asia.

I don’t expect it to be any easier in the Middle East.  Switching from tribal, religious and autocratic systems to modern isn’t easy.  You almost have to sit back and let the holders of the old values die off.

No easy solution available.

The Jupiter religious Blue medieval meme, the Mars imperial Red bronze age meme, and the Saturn royalist Brown renaissance meme, are all later expressions and permutations of the Venus agricultural Venus meme of the neo-lithic age. It is a big switch indeed to transition beyond all these stages to the Uranus liberal Orange modernist early-industrial age meme at one fell swoop; not to mention to transcend the Mercury tribal Purple hunter-gatherer meme too.

Of course, usually all societies have some traces of the past stages of history within them and within their peoples. But the Middle East does seem unusually backward and abundantly mired in these Tribal and Agricultural Age cultures.

It's not likely that waiting will make the transitions happen, though the die-offs could speed it along if young people there are sufficiently tuned-in via their aspirations to modern and post-modern stages. We can see how violent the change has been so far, and how cruel the resistance to it by authority. Of course, as Syria demonstrated, the upholders of the old order can simply kill the young modernists off or exile them. The effect so far has been to arouse old tribal and nationalist hatreds in the places in Europe where they have fled. Time will tell if this regressed Europe is a passing phase. But it already tore the UK apart from the EU, which could mire down the UK in economic decline and national implosion for a long time, and subject the EU to possible break-up or domination by regressive societies where hatred and autocracy are making a comeback.

-- my ruling planet's color is brown Sad ugh! What a shitty color (pun intended) l'm sticking with deep crimson,which I've seen in some books

Re: Brexit- l belong 2 an online international lrish heritage group & Brexit frequently comes up. Interestingly the issue is divided along ethnic lines with the English being the Brexiteers & the Gaels being the Remainers. Now these aren't absolutes, just how the vast majority of these populations roll, in fact, 2 prominent English Remainers r the Queen & Prince Charles. Which is y Teresa May lost her job- in her attempts 2 please the Queen, she was delaying the, ahem, "will of the ppl" overlong. 
Anyhow, in Scotland the results of Brexit have brought up the possibility of Scotexit 2.0 & this time it has a good chance of succeeding. Scotexit failed largely due to $. As in what was the currency gonna be. Saying they would continue 2 use the £ wasn't good enough bcuz that was totally dependent on the Crown, who was against Scotexit & probably wouldn't allow the Scots 2 continue using the £. But this time around the Scots, remaining in the EU, would use the euro 4 currency, which makes Scotexit 2.0 much more of a possiblity
Meanwhile, Northern Ireland has been enjoying a "soft border" with the rest of the island. This,  in theory would go away once the UK formally splits from the EU. Needless 2 say the Irish don't want a hard border & the issue is uniting the island like no other issue b4 it. It's high time the island was finally reunited.. It was only divided, out of spite by Lloyd George 100 yrs ago when lreland won its independence, keeping the 6 counties so the Brits would have a thumbprint on the island & paving the way 4 the troubles. Btw, Lloyd George is the same assclown who sabotaged Wilson's WW1 peace treaty, paving the way 4 Hitler. Anyhow. NI has always been the UK stepchild, lagging behind economically, w/high rates of unemployment & poverty, & the London govt unwilling 2 invest much in it. It's been 100 yrs, & it's time 2 let NI go, where it will fare better as part of a united Ireland. I have 2 agree with this sentiment
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I agree. The UK will become the BK (broken kingdom) due to the stupid imperial nostalgia of the English. I note though that it has been reported clearly all along that the younger English people and the people of London were remainers. Even many Conservative politicians like Cameron were remainers. It's kind of like the red-blue and generational splits in the USA, which could go the way of the UK if the blue side nominates a loser and Trump continues to destroy our country for 4 more years.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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The United Kingdom was formed long ago by blatant aggression. It seems right somehow that the deeds be undone by casting votes. Still, UK sea strength has been favorable to the US for the last century plus. It will be sort of ashamed to see that weakened.
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(02-07-2020, 05:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The United Kingdom was formed long ago by blatant aggression.  It seems right somehow that the deeds be undone by casting votes.  Still, UK sea strength has been favorable to the US for the last century plus.  It will be sort of ashamed to see that weakened.

-- Britannia no longer rules the waves & we got our own blue water Navy
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(02-07-2020, 07:59 PM)Marypoza Wrote:
(02-07-2020, 05:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The United Kingdom was formed long ago by blatant aggression.  It seems right somehow that the deeds be undone by casting votes.  Still, UK sea strength has been favorable to the US for the last century plus.  It will be sort of ashamed to see that weakened.

-- Britannia no longer rules the waves & we got our own blue water Navy

True, but the more money one spends on the military, the less is left over for the people.  Alas, I am not apt to see the last of the Autocratic states fall.
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(02-05-2020, 09:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(01-31-2020, 02:42 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:
(01-31-2020, 01:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-31-2020, 01:05 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(01-30-2020, 06:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As we've learned, the radical Islamic groups like ISIS or political remnants of dictatorships like the Baathist's that have druthers will set up shop in hospitals and schools which they know we won't just bomb like they're doing. If Putin is already shaky, then leaving it alone for now is probably best.

What a bunch of crazy rot, Classic.
Ok. You've seen what happened in Egypt and you've seem what happened in Libya, do we need to see what happens in Syria  for people like  you to learn what not to do again.

Yeah, and let's not forget Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and I think now Nigeria of all places as other Loser propositions
we've staggered into drunk on hubris.  Of course doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

Each situation is different. In any case, anyone should be able to see that Classic Xer is not in possession of any facts regarding Syria. Regardless of what you think should be done or not done about Syria, it should be obvious that Classic Xer is not aware of the facts. Hospitals and schools in northwestern Syria do not have IS or Baathists setting up shop there. It is simply a case of Putin bombing innocent children while the world stands by.

Leaving Syria alone now or not is NOT a decision to make for the USA. We have no alternative now but to leave it alone now. We left the field of the proxy war, and let Putin and Assad win. So talking about whether we should leave Syria alone now or not, is ridiculously irrelevant.

The people rose up in Egypt and Libya and threw out their dictator, but revolutions often do not work, and tyranny or anarchy often results. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. That says NOTHING about US policy. THE PEOPLE made the decision to revolt; the US did not impose revolt upon them, as the US did in Iraq, and in Nam. And I protested those latter interventions by the US vigorously, so there is no meaning to Classic's phrase "people like you." On the other hand, Classic Xer supports the folks who denounced the protesters to those interventions as "un-American."
The fact is that you don't know what's really going on there anymore than me at this point. All I have is a pretty good guess based on my knowledge of tactics often used by common enemies in the area.
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(02-07-2020, 05:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The United Kingdom was formed long ago by blatant aggression.  It seems right somehow that the deeds be undone by casting votes.  Still, UK sea strength has been favorable to the US for the last century plus.  It will be sort of ashamed to see that weakened.
Yep, if that goes, there goes a few trillion to replace it. How about privatizing a portion of their healthcare costs? I know that would crush the hopes of progressives here but it would keep us both free and able to protect both our nations shipping routes.
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(02-07-2020, 10:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(02-07-2020, 05:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The United Kingdom was formed long ago by blatant aggression.  It seems right somehow that the deeds be undone by casting votes.  Still, UK sea strength has been favorable to the US for the last century plus.  It will be sort of ashamed to see that weakened.
Yep, if that goes, there goes a few trillion to replace it. How about privatizing a portion of their healthcare costs? I know that would crush the hopes of progressives here but it would keep us both free and able to protect both our nations shipping routes.

It is not pirates that worry me.  Lots of nations have ships at sea that need protection.  Lots of nations don’t have enough carrier groups to stand off the Persian Gulf to perform bombing raids, or to conduct naval operations in China’s brown water.  If you want to project force anywhere in the world near an ocean, it gets a lot more expensive than taking turns putting a few destroyers or frigates off the coast of Somalia.  

Plus we have been playing 3 for 1 games lately.  In order to deploy one carrier group, there will be another in maintenance and another in training.  Somehow, in World War II, they deployed carriers for years. Much of it was the use of well trained and large crews who would perform maintenance while deployed.  When the war ended, they had to deploy balloons on traditional going home banners with a foot for every day away from Uncle Sugar.  If they did not, the banners would dip into the sea.

Cut domestic spending to float more carrier groups?  The ability to meddle in areas converting from autocratic states is worthy.  So are the retirement accounts of the Xers and Millennials.  Someone does have to play the Domino Theory game.  You have to give the autocrats a feeling that expansion by force is prohibitively expensive and apt to fail.  Meddling in Neo colonialism is another thing.  Bush 43 just got the world mad at us and destabilized the Middle East for his trouble.  Trying to do something you cannot wastes a lot in gold, iron and blood.

I just have the feeling that as the Xers and Millennials start reaching retirement, they are going to expect the government to bail out their past inability to save, and have the votes to make it so.  The years of spending on the military while ignoring the needs of their people will come back to haunt the US.
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(02-07-2020, 07:59 PM)Marypoza Wrote:
(02-07-2020, 05:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The United Kingdom was formed long ago by blatant aggression.  It seems right somehow that the deeds be undone by casting votes.  Still, UK sea strength has been favorable to the US for the last century plus.  It will be sort of ashamed to see that weakened.

-- Britannia no longer rules the waves & we got our own blue water Navy

… stretched thin as a taut string.  We need more, not less, allied support.  Japan could and should beef-up its navy.  The same is true for South Korea.  Taking off some pressure in the Pacific needs to happen regardless.  We're not that dominant anymore.  But in the end, we need Europe in the game too, and there is less unanimity there.  France?  Sure, we can count on them.  Germany?  I see 0.0% interest in building a Bluewater fleet.  Italy?  They have so many problems right offshore, they're already saddled to their max.  Spain?  They're a wild card, but I see no indication they have any interest at all.  Turkey is already moving away.  Greece is an impossibility.

We don't need the GOP screaming for 2 or 3 additional new aircraft career battle groups (12 are already being planned), and going it alone is what that means.  An aircraft career battle group (Ford class) is roughly $100 Billion of ships, aircraft and weapons systems.  It's hard to guess at the ongoing cost of manning and maintenance, but a typical group has ~8,000 sailors and a few months a year (average) in dry dock.  Do the math.  In my book, no thanks.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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(02-07-2020, 10:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(02-07-2020, 05:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The United Kingdom was formed long ago by blatant aggression.  It seems right somehow that the deeds be undone by casting votes.  Still, UK sea strength has been favorable to the US for the last century plus.  It will be sort of ashamed to see that weakened.

Yep, if that goes, there goes a few trillion to replace it. How about privatizing a portion of their healthcare costs? I know that would crush the hopes of progressives here but it would keep us both free and able to protect both our nations shipping routes.

Why not tax the hell out of businesses that need to use those shipping routes to pay for that protection, and let the rest of us have healthcare that's worth something?  Business, especially huge, multinational business, has had a free ride on us for decades.  Times up!

BTW, privatizing healthcare is an oxymoron,  Except for the VA and Indian Health Service, it already is.  What's private in the non-service part: insurance.  What doesn't work very well is, oh yeah: insurance.  I see nothing but higher cost if we insist on keeping private insurance.  I've had both kinds (I'm on Medicare).  You can believe me or not, but Medicare is a vast improvement.  My wife, who is younger and still working, has really good private insurance.  Hers costs more, and plays "gotcha" on anything not strictly in line with their policies.  Medicare just pays, iits cheaper for me, and, not surprising, cheaper over all.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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(02-08-2020, 10:11 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(02-07-2020, 07:59 PM)Marypoza Wrote:
(02-07-2020, 05:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The United Kingdom was formed long ago by blatant aggression.  It seems right somehow that the deeds be undone by casting votes.  Still, UK sea strength has been favorable to the US for the last century plus.  It will be sort of ashamed to see that weakened.

-- Britannia no longer rules the waves & we got our own blue water Navy

… stretched thin as a taut string.  We need more, not less, allied support.  Japan could and should beef-up its navy.  The same is true for South Korea.  Taking off some pressure in the Pacific needs to happen regardless.  We're not that dominant anymore.  But in the end, we need Europe in the game too, and there is less unanimity there.  France?  Sure, we can count on them.  Germany?  I see 0.0% interest in building a Bluewater fleet.  Italy?  They have so many problems right offshore, they're already saddled to their max.  Spain?  They're a wild card, but I see no indication they have any interest at all.  Turkey is already moving away.  Greece is an impossibility.

We don't need the GOP screaming for 2 or 3 additional new aircraft career battle groups (12 are already being planned), and going it alone is what that means.  An aircraft career battle group (Ford class) is roughly $100 Billion of ships, aircraft and weapons systems.  It's hard to guess at the ongoing cost of manning and maintenance, but a typical group has ~8,000 sailors and a few months a year (average) in dry dock.  Do the math.  In my book, no thanks.

-- you'll get no argument from me. All those countries u mentioned, & a few u haven't need 2 build up their fleets, & their military in general. Warren, l believe said it in another thread that we need a blue water Navy 2 keep our coasts connected, but these other countries could @ least build up coastal navies, & their militaries in general, to protect their own respective countries
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(02-07-2020, 08:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(02-07-2020, 07:59 PM)Marypoza Wrote:
(02-07-2020, 05:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The United Kingdom was formed long ago by blatant aggression.  It seems right somehow that the deeds be undone by casting votes.  Still, UK sea strength has been favorable to the US for the last century plus.  It will be sort of ashamed to see that weakened.

-- Britannia no longer rules the waves & we got our own blue water Navy

True, but the more money one spends on the military, the less is left over for the people.  Alas, I am not apt to see the last of the Autocratic states fall.

-- I agree with u. I was just saying.

Check this out. Britain isn't even on the list. In fact only 1 European country is & it not who you'd think. Well 2 counting Russia & they're not where you'd expect them 2b. Neither r we. You'll never guess who's #1:

https://www.businessinsider.com/biggest-...95-ships-4
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(02-07-2020, 10:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(02-05-2020, 09:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(01-31-2020, 02:42 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:
(01-31-2020, 01:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-31-2020, 01:05 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: What a bunch of crazy rot, Classic.
Ok. You've seen what happened in Egypt and you've seem what happened in Libya, do we need to see what happens in Syria  for people like  you to learn what not to do again.

Yeah, and let's not forget Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and I think now Nigeria of all places as other Loser propositions
we've staggered into drunk on hubris.  Of course doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

Each situation is different. In any case, anyone should be able to see that Classic Xer is not in possession of any facts regarding Syria. Regardless of what you think should be done or not done about Syria, it should be obvious that Classic Xer is not aware of the facts. Hospitals and schools in northwestern Syria do not have IS or Baathists setting up shop there. It is simply a case of Putin bombing innocent children while the world stands by.

Leaving Syria alone now or not is NOT a decision to make for the USA. We have no alternative now but to leave it alone now. We left the field of the proxy war, and let Putin and Assad win. So talking about whether we should leave Syria alone now or not, is ridiculously irrelevant.

The people rose up in Egypt and Libya and threw out their dictator, but revolutions often do not work, and tyranny or anarchy often results. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. That says NOTHING about US policy. THE PEOPLE made the decision to revolt; the US did not impose revolt upon them, as the US did in Iraq, and in Nam. And I protested those latter interventions by the US vigorously, so there is no meaning to Classic's phrase "people like you." On the other hand, Classic Xer supports the folks who denounced the protesters to those interventions as "un-American."
The fact is that you don't know what's really going on there anymore than me at this point. All I have is a pretty good guess based on my knowledge of tactics often used by common enemies in the area.

I have knowledge because I read and watch reports. An award winning film is also making the rounds now that covers the Syria Revolution and massacre first hand.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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Gabbard made her name by being a Democratic Party official who broke ranks and endorsed Bernie Sanders. So why doesn't she now get out of the race and support Bernie?
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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