Choosing your generation?

[AspieMillennial]

(07-13-2019, 01:14 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(07-13-2019, 10:53 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-02-2019, 01:43 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: I enjoy arguing with those people and setting them off. I almost see them like parental figures to rebel against because it seems like they want to control me more than anyone. What could cause you to see people your age or even younger as parental figures trying to control you?

As with many parents with a child with Asperger's syndrome, they may have mishandled you.

Their handling would have been fine 40 years earlier, which might have been when they were children themselves.  Personally I am trying to teach my children to hide or channel their independent streak since they're likely to live in the shadow of conformism demanding Millenials for most of their lives, but not all parents know generational theory.

This isn't really true to me but then again I'm an old Millennial. In my experience, standing firm, standing your ground, and not budging works. People take advantage of those who budge to pressure. Many people in my generation outside of the specific area I lived in value maturity and not fighting back to the point of giving up very easily or at least you walk away even because many are not used to conflict. Many are also conflict averse because of seeing how their parents acted and being appalled by it. I learned the opposite. I learned if you go along to get along, people can and will run you over as long as they have you as a target in your mind. Your cooperation counts for nothing for certain people, especially if cooperating with the system will leave you behind. I learned to cooperate and be a team player with things that won't harm me and to be belligerent with things that will. You have to be stronger and smarter than your opponents and have a willpower of steel. I also learned to team up with other outliers and other people who disagree with the way things work. Also learned to focus my energy and do lots of favors for and be friends with those who have what you want or need. I see socializing as more of a strategy game than anything. I see "Input A = Output A".

[Warren Dew]

(07-13-2019, 06:52 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: This isn't really true to me but then again I'm an old Millennial. In my experience, standing firm, standing your ground, and not budging works.

It has worked so far for you, but we're still in the fourth turning.  Boomers are still fighting, so if you disagree with some, there are others that will come to your defense.  And Gen X are fine with independence.

After the crisis and the forming of a consensus, during the first turning, the winning Boomers and the (nonaspie) Millenials will enforce the consensus ruthlessly.  There is already talk of taking away rights from the "mentally ill" and, in some circles, preventive detention of them; in the first turning, nonconforming aspies, as well as any other nonconforming nonneurotypicals will likely be labelled mentally ill and put in asylums.  The neurotypicals will conform because of their strong herd instinct.

People talk about how high a percentage of the US population is in prison now; back in the 1950s, the percentage in prison was much lower, but the percentage involuntarily committed to insane asylums was much higher than now, and about the same as are in prison now.  McCarthyism was a winning political tactic in the 1950s.  Don't think it can't happen again.

Independent thinkers won't be safe again until the second turning.  And frankly, back in the 1960s, there were still remnants of enforced conformism; it's just that there were enough Adaptives - Silents - around to reinforce the Reactive Lost in their efforts to restore some individual freedom.

I'm not saying you need to change your habits now, but I am saying that you should be on the lookout for a sea change that will suggest that you need to change or at least tone down your habits.

Quote:I was taught social skills but more in a specific sense. Specific words to say, specific phrases to say, specific actions to take, specific body language, posture, ways of walking, specific types of eye contact. I was taught specific rules of politeness, how to make an impression, how to haggle and negotiate, how to do favor for others to gain favor back. I was taught when something was weird or strange. I didn't get the urge to fit in but I got the urge to use those skills whenever I needed something. This was enforced by parents, teachers, and psychologists. On the other hand, I was taught critical thinking and discussion was a daily part of my life. I was taught how to use logic.

Sounds like your parents did a good job.  My daughter was referred to a city psychologist because of behavior issues at school, and the psychologist remarked repeatedly on how rationally she discussed individual relations.  Aspies need these skills because we just don't have the intuitive understanding of how neurotypicals handle interpersonal relations.

[AspieMillennial]

(07-13-2019, 07:48 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(07-13-2019, 06:52 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: This isn't really true to me but then again I'm an old Millennial. In my experience, standing firm, standing your ground, and not budging works.

It has worked so far for you, but we're still in the fourth turning.  Boomers are still fighting, so if you disagree with some, there are others that will come to your defense.  And Gen X are fine with independence.

After the crisis and the forming of a consensus, during the first turning, the winning Boomers and the (nonaspie) Millenials will enforce the consensus ruthlessly.  There is already talk of taking away rights from the "mentally ill" and, in some circles, preventive detention of them; in the first turning, nonconforming aspies, as well as any other nonconforming nonneurotypicals will likely be labelled mentally ill and put in asylums.  The neurotypicals will conform because of their strong herd instinct.

People talk about how high a percentage of the US population is in prison now; back in the 1950s, the percentage in prison was much lower, but the percentage involuntarily committed to insane asylums was much higher than now, and about the same as are in prison now.  McCarthyism was a winning political tactic in the 1950s.  Don't think it can't happen again.

Independent thinkers won't be safe again until the second turning.  And frankly, back in the 1960s, there were still remnants of enforced conformism; it's just that there were enough Adaptives - Silents - around to reinforce the Reactive Lost in their efforts to restore some individual freedom.

I'm not saying you need to change your habits now, but I am saying that you should be on the lookout for a sea change that will suggest that you need to change or at least tone down your habits.

Quote:I was taught social skills but more in a specific sense. Specific words to say, specific phrases to say, specific actions to take, specific body language, posture, ways of walking, specific types of eye contact. I was taught specific rules of politeness, how to make an impression, how to haggle and negotiate, how to do favor for others to gain favor back. I was taught when something was weird or strange. I didn't get the urge to fit in but I got the urge to use those skills whenever I needed something. This was enforced by parents, teachers, and psychologists. On the other hand, I was taught critical thinking and discussion was a daily part of my life. I was taught how to use logic.

Sounds like your parents did a good job.  My daughter was referred to a city psychologist because of behavior issues at school, and the psychologist remarked repeatedly on how rationally she discussed individual relations.  Aspies need these skills because we just don't have the intuitive understanding of how neurotypicals handle interpersonal relations.

I'm going to isolate myself in the first turning from the majority of people and only limit my interaction to people who are close to me. I will get my way by finding niches. Also in the first turning, Millennials won't be the only generation there. I will specifically use strategies to avoid interactions with certain people and crowds and only limit myself to those who will accept me. I will ignore all others and specifically avoid them. I will only limit myself to the minority of people in my generation or Gen X who agree with me. The others I will go out of the way to not talk to them. Is this a good strategy? I'm fine with independence and was raised differently from many in my generation.

[Warren Dew]

I think that strategy will work. A lot of X will have to resort to that strategy, too - as well as a few old boomers, like me if Eric's side wins, or him if my side wins.

[Teejay]

(03-26-2019, 06:40 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: Is it ever an option?

I know it seems nonsensical, but for those born near the cusp, isn't choice a factor? I have been playing with the notion that generations overlap rather than having neat boundaries, so for people from these "grey areas" there must be some other factors apart from birth date.
Mark Zuckerberg and Amy Winehouse have been both born in 1984, but I see Zuckerberg as a millennial, while Amy as an Xer. From an older generation, we could point to Jimmy Carter who is more Silent-like despite being born in a supposed G.I. year.

Amy Winehouse was a late wave member of the British equivalents of Generation X, the Hooligan generation whose cohorts are roughly from 1966/7 to 1986. A lot of British figures born in those years are archetypically Nomads as well. The same observation can be made for early to middle 1980s cohorts on the European continent as well. It is much more obivious that those British public figures born in the early to middle 1960s are Prophets.

These are the years of British generations, which assorted former Fourth Turning members have proposed.


Air Raider (Artist) 1927-1946
Generation 68' (Prophet) 1947-1966
Hooligan (Nomad) 1967-1986
Millennial (Civic) 1987-2007?

[Hintergrund]

I have to admit, the bit about Amy makes sense.

[Teejay]

(11-20-2019, 02:54 AM)Hintergrund Wrote: I have to admit, the bit about Amy makes sense.

A lot of British people of her age and even a little younger have personalities consistent with a Nomad generation. Just do a survey of British celebrities and public figures born from say 1981 to 1986.

[ResidentArtist]

I grapple with this quite a bit. Technically I am within the birth years of the Millennials as dated by Strauss and Howe but am a fairly late one, so I feel much more at home with Gen Z (hence my username). I don't remember 9/11 despite being alive for it. It feels like I've only been watching history happen for as long as I can recall -- which will probably continue until the First Turning.

[Ghost]

(11-21-2019, 07:23 PM)ResidentArtist Wrote: I grapple with this quite a bit. Technically I am within the birth years of the Millennials as dated by Strauss and Howe but am a fairly late one, so I feel much more at home with Gen Z (hence my username). I don't remember 9/11 despite being alive for it. It feels like I've only been watching history happen for as long as I can recall -- which will probably continue until the First Turning.

That's probably just one of the small pieces of the big Millennial puzzle.

A 1999 born (I get that the idea of 1999 borns remembering 9/11 is somewhat outlandish) that lived in NYC at the time is far more likely to remember 9/11 than a 1997 born that lived in Poland.

I even think that 1994 borns have some Generation Z qualities to them, like starting elementary school after the Columbine shootings and still being in elementary school during the start of the Web 2.0 age. They're probably like what 1922 borns are to the GI generation or what 1958 borns are to the Baby Boomer generation.

But yet again, we're only talking about Americans here.

[Teejay]

(11-21-2019, 10:00 PM)Ghost Wrote:

(11-21-2019, 07:23 PM)ResidentArtist Wrote: I grapple with this quite a bit. Technically I am within the birth years of the Millennials as dated by Strauss and Howe but am a fairly late one, so I feel much more at home with Gen Z (hence my username). I don't remember 9/11 despite being alive for it. It feels like I've only been watching history happen for as long as I can recall -- which will probably continue until the First Turning.

That's probably just one of the small pieces of the big Millennial puzzle.

A 1999 born (I get that the idea of 1999 borns remembering 9/11 is somewhat outlandish) that lived in NYC at the time is far more likely to remember 9/11 than a 1997 born that lived in Poland.

I even think that 1994 borns have some Generation Z qualities to them, like starting elementary school after the Columbine shootings and still being in elementary school during the start of the Web 2.0 age. They're probably like what 1922 borns are to the GI generation or what 1958 borns are to the Baby Boomer generation.

But yet again, we're only talking about Americans here.

The impression I got from speaking to old T4T forum members. Is that American Generation Z cohorts, is there is a split between Civics and Artists. In Australia and Europe on the other-hand they are solid Civics, it is the Millennial cohorts who are split between Late Wave Nomads and Early Wave Civics.

The same people I speak to, have argued that the current Artist generation's first cohorts are in the early 2000's, with the late 1990s cohorts being cuspers.

[AspieMillennial]

(11-21-2019, 10:00 PM)Ghost Wrote:

(11-21-2019, 07:23 PM)ResidentArtist Wrote: I grapple with this quite a bit. Technically I am within the birth years of the Millennials as dated by Strauss and Howe but am a fairly late one, so I feel much more at home with Gen Z (hence my username). I don't remember 9/11 despite being alive for it. It feels like I've only been watching history happen for as long as I can recall -- which will probably continue until the First Turning.

That's probably just one of the small pieces of the big Millennial puzzle.

A 1999 born (I get that the idea of 1999 borns remembering 9/11 is somewhat outlandish) that lived in NYC at the time is far more likely to remember 9/11 than a 1997 born that lived in Poland.

I even think that 1994 borns have some Generation Z qualities to them, like starting elementary school after the Columbine shootings and still being in elementary school during the start of the Web 2.0 age. They're probably like what 1922 borns are to the GI generation or what 1958 borns are to the Baby Boomer generation.

But yet again, we're only talking about Americans here.

If 1994 is equivalent to 1922 in the GI Generation, then 1973 would be equivalent to 1901. This wouldn't make much sense as 1973 is core Generation X.

[Ghost]

(11-21-2019, 11:43 PM)Teejay Wrote:

(11-21-2019, 10:00 PM)Ghost Wrote:

(11-21-2019, 07:23 PM)ResidentArtist Wrote: I grapple with this quite a bit. Technically I am within the birth years of the Millennials as dated by Strauss and Howe but am a fairly late one, so I feel much more at home with Gen Z (hence my username). I don't remember 9/11 despite being alive for it. It feels like I've only been watching history happen for as long as I can recall -- which will probably continue until the First Turning.

That's probably just one of the small pieces of the big Millennial puzzle.

A 1999 born (I get that the idea of 1999 borns remembering 9/11 is somewhat outlandish) that lived in NYC at the time is far more likely to remember 9/11 than a 1997 born that lived in Poland.

I even think that 1994 borns have some Generation Z qualities to them, like starting elementary school after the Columbine shootings and still being in elementary school during the start of the Web 2.0 age. They're probably like what 1922 borns are to the GI generation or what 1958 borns are to the Baby Boomer generation.

But yet again, we're only talking about Americans here.

The impression I got from speaking to old T4T forum members. Is that American Generation Z cohorts, is there is a split between Civics and Artists. In Australia and Europe on the other-hand they are solid Civics, it is the Millennial cohorts who are split between Late Wave Nomads and Early Wave Civics.

The same people I speak to, have argued that the current Artist generation's first cohorts are in the early 2000's, with the late 1990s cohorts being cuspers.

In the US, it's probably like this:

1993: 100% Civic (started elementary school before the Columbine shootings, spent most of their elementary school years pre-9/11, started middle school before Web 2.0, started high school before the Recession, spent most of their high school years before the release of the iPad, graduated high school before the Trayvon Martin incident, and graduated college before the legalization of gay marriage)
1994: 85% Civic, 15% Artist
1995: 70% Civic, 30% Artist
1996: 60% Civic, 40% Artist
1997: 45% Civic, 55% Artist
1998: 30% Civic, 70% Artist
1999: 15% Civic, 85% Artist
2000: 100% Artist (started elementary school after Web 2.0, spent most of their elementary school years after the Recession, started high school after the legalization of recreational marijuana and the Crimean annexation, spent most of their high school years after the legalization of gay marriage, were still in high school when the Parkland shooting took place, and spent most of their college years after the climate strikes)

[ResidentArtist]

I like having percentages on the cusp years based on events that generations experienced. For the Boomers and Gen Xers it's likely similar to this:

1952: 100% Prophet (started elementary school before the Space Race, spent most of elementary school years before JFK's assassination, started middle school before the Great Society laws, started high school before the 1968 social unrest, spent most of their high school years before the moon landing, graduated high school before 18-year-olds could vote, and graduated college before the fall of Saigon)
1953: 85% Prophet, 15% Nomad
1954: 70% Prophet, 30% Nomad
1955: 60% Prophet, 40% Nomad
1956: 45% Prophet, 55% Nomad
1957: 40% Prophet, 60% Nomad
1958: 30% Prophet, 70% Nomad
1959: 15% Prophet, 85% Nomad
1960: 100% Nomad (started elementary school after the Great Society laws, spent most of elementary school years after the 1968 social unrest, started middle school after the moon landing, started high school after abortion was legalized, spent most of their high school years after Nixon resigned, graduated high school after Star Wars was released, and spent most of college after the Iranian Revolution)

1974: 100% Nomad (started elementary school before the launch of MTV, spent most of elementary school years before the crack epidemic, started middle school the same year as the Challenger disaster, started high school before the Berlin Wall fell, spent most of their high school years before a public World Wide Web, graduated high school before the Oklahoma City bombing, and graduated college before the Lewinsky scandal)
1975: 85% Nomad, 15% Civic
1976: 70% Nomad, 30% Civic
1977: 60% Nomad, 40% Civic
1978: 45% Nomad, 55% Civic
1979: 30% Nomad, 70% Civic
1980: 15% Nomad, 85% Civic
1981: 100% Civic (started elementary school after the Challenger disaster, spent most of elementary school years after the Berlin Wall fell, started middle school after the World Wide Web was public, started high school after the Cold War ended, spent most of their high school years after the O.J. trial, were still in high school when the Columbine shooting took place, and graduated college after the 9/11 attacks)

[Ghost]

(11-23-2019, 09:20 PM)ResidentArtist Wrote: I like having percentages on the cusp years based on events that generations experienced. For the Boomers and Gen Xers it's likely similar to this:

1952: 100% Prophet (started elementary school before the Space Race, spent most of elementary school years before JFK's assassination, started middle school before the Great Society laws, started high school before the 1968 social unrest, spent most of their high school years before the moon landing, graduated high school before 18-year-olds could vote, and graduated college before the fall of Saigon)
1953: 85% Prophet, 15% Nomad
1954: 70% Prophet, 30% Nomad
1955: 60% Prophet, 40% Nomad
1956: 45% Prophet, 55% Nomad
1957: 40% Prophet, 60% Nomad
1958: 30% Prophet, 70% Nomad
1959: 15% Prophet, 85% Nomad
1960: 100% Nomad (started elementary school after the Great Society laws, spent most of elementary school years after the 1968 social unrest, started middle school after the moon landing, started high school after abortion was legalized, spent most of their high school years after Nixon resigned, graduated high school after Star Wars was released, and spent most of college after the Iranian Revolution)

1974: 100% Nomad (started elementary school before the launch of MTV, spent most of elementary school years before the crack epidemic, started middle school the same year as the Challenger disaster, started high school before the Berlin Wall fell, spent most of their high school years before a public World Wide Web, graduated high school before the Oklahoma City bombing, and graduated college before the Lewinsky scandal)
1975: 85% Nomad, 15% Civic
1976: 70% Nomad, 30% Civic
1977: 60% Nomad, 40% Civic
1978: 45% Nomad, 55% Civic
1979: 30% Nomad, 70% Civic
1980: 15% Nomad, 85% Civic
1981: 100% Civic (started elementary school after the Challenger disaster, spent most of elementary school years after the Berlin Wall fell, started middle school after the World Wide Web was public, started high school after the Cold War ended, spent most of their high school years after the O.J. trial, were still in high school when the Columbine shooting took place, and graduated college after the 9/11 attacks)

Some corrections to make:

*1952 borns were the last to start middle school before JFK's assassination and the Great Society laws.
*1953 borns were actually the last to graduate high school before the voting age changed from 21 to 18 (if we are talking about the ratification of that amendment).
*1953 borns were the last to start high school before the 1968 social unrest.
*1958 borns were actually the first to spend most of their college years after the Iranian revolution.
*1959 borns were actually the first to start elementary school after the Great Society laws.
*1959 borns were actually the first to start middle school after the Moon Landing.
*1959 borns were actually the first to start high school after the legalization of abortion.
*1959 borns were the first to spend most of their high school years after Nixon's resignation.
*1975 borns were actually the last to spend most of their elementary school years before the crack epidemic.
*1975 borns were the last to start high school after the Berlin Wall fell.
*1975 borns were the first to start middle school after the Challenger explosion.
*1976 borns were the last to enter elementary school before the start of MTV.
*1976 borns were the last to graduate high school before the Oklahoma City bombing.
*1979 borns were the last to graduate college before 9/11.
*1981 borns started high school after the OJ trial.

[ResidentArtist]

I admittedly wasn't specifically looking for the first or last borns in every case, but a universal year in which someone born in that year would have experienced those events at a certain stage of life, after which the cusps began. As an example, a person that was born in 1953 could also vote at 18 but would still have been in college when Saigon fell and the Vietnam War was lost. For that matter, a 1976 born was technically the last to start elementary school before MTV launched but would not have spent most of high school before the World Wide Web was public.

Noted on the Challenger and O.J. trial though, the months of those events didn't match.

[Ghost]

(11-24-2019, 02:02 AM)ResidentArtist Wrote: I admittedly wasn't specifically looking for the first or last borns in every case, but a universal year in which someone born in that year would have experienced those events at a certain stage of life, after which the cusps began. As an example, a person that was born in 1953 could also vote at 18 but would still have been in college when Saigon fell and the Vietnam War was lost. For that matter, a 1976 born was technically the last to start elementary school before MTV launched but would not have spent most of high school before the World Wide Web was public.

Noted on the Challenger and O.J. trial though, the months of those events didn't match.

"Lasts" and "firsts" are kind of necessary to determine where a generation starts/ends.

1997 and 2000, for example, are both actually pretty good starting years for the Artist generation because they have more "firsts" than "lasts":

1997 firsts:
*First to not be in elementary school when 9/11 happened.
*First to start elementary school after the release of the iPod.
*First to start elementary school after DVD sales top over VHS sales in ~2002.
*First to spend most of their elementary school years post-Web 2.0, post-peak of Blockbuster (Blockbuster peaked in November 2004), post-YouTube, and post-closing of Nickelodeon Studios (which marked an end to the "Silver Age" of Nickelodeon)
*First to start middle school after the release of the iPhone.
*First to start middle school after liquid-crystal display TVs overtook cathode-ray tube TVs.
*First to start middle school after the Recession
*First to start high school after the launch of Instagram.
*First to start high school after the killing of Osama bin Laden.
*First to start high school after smartphone sales exceeded PC sales.
*First to spend most of their high school years after smartphone sales overtook flip phone sales.
*First to graduate high school after the Ferguson riots, which escalated racial tensions in the modern era, and after the rise of ISIS.
*First to spend most of their college years after the Trump v. Hillary election.

1997 lasts:
*Last to start elementary school before the Iraq War.
*Last to spend most of their elementary school years before Hurricane Katrina.
*Last to start middle school before the McCain v. Obama election.
*Last to start high school before the Trayvon Martin incident.
*Last to spend most of their high school years before the legalization of recreational marijuana, the annexation of Crimea, and the Isla Vista shooting (the event that would usher in the "incel" movement).
*Last to graduate high school before the legalization of gay marriage.
*Last to graduate college before the Climate strikes and the "OK Boomer" thing.

2000 firsts:
*First to be born in a year that begins with a 2 (obviously)
*First to start elementary school post-Web 2.0, post-peak of Blockbuster, post-YouTube, and post-closing of Nickelodeon Studios.
*First to spend most of their elementary school years after the release of the iPhone.
*First to spend most of their elementary school years after the start of the Recession.
*First to spend most of their elementary school years after liquid-crystal display TVs overtook cathode-ray tube TVs.
*First to start middle school after the launch of Instagram.
*First to start middle school after the killing of Osama bin Laden.
*First to start middle school after smartphone sales overtook PC sales.
*First to start high school after the legalization of recreational marijuana, the annexation of Crimea, and the Isla Vista shooting.
*First to spend most of their high school years after the legalization of gay marriage.
*First to graduate high school after the release of Fortnite, the tide pod scare, and the Parkland shooting, all of which giving the Artist generation a firm identity in pop culture and politics.
*First to graduate high school after worldwide Internet usage hit 50%.
*First to spend most of their college years after the Climate strikes and the whole "OK Boomer" thing

2000 lasts:
*Last to start elementary school before Hurricane Katrina.
*Last to spend most of their elementary school years before the McCain v. Obama election.
*Last to start middle school before the Trayvon Martin incident.
*Last to start high school before the Ferguson riots and the rise of ISIS.
*Last to spend most of their high school years prior to the Trump v. Hillary election.

1994 too is actually a decent starting point for Homelanders/Artists despite being kind of early:

1994 firsts:
*First to start elementary school after the Columbine shooting.
*First to spend most of their elementary school years post-9/11.
*First to spend most of their elementary school years after the release of the iPod.
*First to spend most of their elementary school years after DVD sales top over VHS sales in ~2002.
*First to start middle school post-Web 2.0, post-peak of Blockbuster, post-YouTube, and post-closing of Nickelodeon Studios.
*First to start high school after the release of the iPhone.
*First to start high school after liquid-crystal display TVs overtook cathode-ray tube TVs.
*First to start high school after the start of the Recession.
*First to spend most of their high school years after the release of the iPad.
*First to graduate high school after the Trayvon Martin incident.
*First to spend most of their college years after the legalization of recreational marijuana, the annexation of Crimea, and the Isla Vista shooting.
*First to graduate college after the legalization of gay marriage.

1994 lasts:
*Last to start elementary school before Y2K.
*Last to spend most of their elementary school years before the Iraq War.
*Last to start middle school before Hurricane Katrina.
*Last to start high school before the McCain v. Obama election.
*Last to spend most of their high school years before the killing of Osama bin Laden.
*Last to graduate high school before smartphone sales overtook flip phone sales.
*Last to graduate college before the Trump v. Hillary election.

[Hintergrund]

(11-24-2019, 01:20 AM)Ghost Wrote: 1922 isn't purely GI because:

Seeing as most of them fought in WW2, which wasn't the case for the 1901 cohort, I'd rather say that they're quintessential GI. Isn't one big shaping experience more important than many little ones from childhood (which they don't remember that much)? Especially since they grew up in hard times, so it's no wonder they don't have much of childhood nostalgia.