I VOTE YES ON CALEXIT!

[Kinser79]

(03-10-2017, 01:55 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: But unlike France we still have enough Old West in us that we can do the resource stuff in a way that no European country can. We were really gifted by nature.

Venezuela is also gifted by nature having the large oil reserves. Rat is still on the menu in Caracas.

[SomeGuy]

Isn't a big part of the Calexit driver (such as it actually is) the immigration issue?  Can we then expect California to have open borders?

[TeacherinExile]

(03-10-2017, 12:52 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: You misunderstand.  I am not offended, nor am I apologizing for my vote, I just don't think what you linked to counted as satire, nor was it particularly witty.  Had Eric or PBrower or Alphabet or any of the other emotionally-crippled old men who post routinely here linked to it, I probably would have passed without comment.  It was the fact that you are usually more open-minded that made me cringe when you posted something so narrowly partisan, that amounted to little more than a "blue" venting his spleen at the "reds".

I mean, to whom do you think that article was actually addressed?  What was the message that the article was trying to get across?  How effective do you think the rhetorical strategy chosen was in conveying said message to said audience?  What elements do you feel identified the article as being satiric in intent?

It simply made me laugh.  Was it satire?  Only in the sense that the writer was being deliberately impractical, though not completely so.   Much as Jonathan Swift sounded wildly impractical and immoral, intentionally so, as a counterpoint to the British response to the poor, starving Irish.  Personally, I don't think "virtual secession" is that all that farfetched, though a lot would have to go wrong in America for that to come about in any meaningful way.  Like Kinser, I wouldn't rule out dissolution, Soviet-style.  And that wouldn't take a civil war, necessarily, to accomplish.  

If you could see the extreme legislation that the GOP-controlled statehouse is trying pass here in my adopted state, and the 2016 voter-approved initiative (minimum wage hike) that the Arizona Chamber of Commerce is trying to overturn by way of judicial review, contrary to popular will, you would understand my initial impulse to move to a state (or country) more in accord with my values.  I'm not partisan in the least, though I admit I do fall--for now--on one side of the political spectrum, and only then as a countervailing force in a country that has swung too far in one direction.  Truly, I am a radical pragmatist, oxymoron that that may seem.  Where is the political party for that "ideology," pray tell?  Do I have to move to a country like Singapore to find a government ruled by some semblance of common sense? (Authoritarian as that country may be.)  You know the old saying, "If it ain't broke (Glass-Steagall), don't fix it?" and if it is broke (healthcare), we best fix it, and now. 

In my lifetime, both parties have pressed their so-called "mandate" and electoral advantage too far.  Forced busing?  Bad idea--hello, "white flight."  Hate crimes?  Didn't sentencing guidelines already give judges the leeway to incorporate such aggravating factors into the sentences they impose?  Isn't it obvious to the jury--and to the public--that, when a man goes into sports bar and yells "Go back to your country!" and then kills an Indian-American (not a "Middle Easterner") that racial animus probably motivated the crime?  "Free-speech zones"?  Don't get me started. 

It is as one man has said, "There's a common lack of common sense in America."  My girlfriend and I agree that the evidence of that is all around us, and not just in the political arena.  Just where is the leadership that's going to reverse that trend so that we can get down to the serious business of fixing what ails our country?  Having taught young people, who I always thought were entitled to wild-eyed optimism, I generally disdain cynicism, defeatism, much less despair.  Millennials, including my two grown sons, deserve so much better.  But when I survey the politicians on offer, I'm hard-pressed to find a Washington, Lincoln, or FDR in the bunch.  Perhaps, Trump in some weird, inimical way will assume--and justify--the mantle of Gray Champion.  We better all hope so.  Because if he fails, and spectacularly so, I fear someone--or something--much worse will come in his place.  I will hold that thought in abeyance for now..

[Kinser79]

(03-10-2017, 02:03 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 01:59 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 01:55 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: But unlike France we still have enough Old West in us that we can do the resource stuff in a way that no European country can. We were really gifted by nature.

Venezuela is also gifted by nature having the large oil reserves.  Rat is still on the menu in Caracas.

Venezuela has a Bolivarian system. As much as some people in the US label California "socialist," by world standards we are still to The Right. Yet another flavor of neoliberalism/neoconservatism.

Venezuela also does not have many (any?) Fortune 50 companies and not very many billionaires.

Do you even listen to your fellow Californians?  They would love to implement a Bolivarian system.  The only reason they haven't is because by and large economic policy is set on the federal level. 

Venezuela doesn't have those companies or billionares because Chavez and Maduro nationalized them and then ran the former owners off.  Should California not have the restraints placed on it by the rest of the country I have no doubt that Governor Moonbeam wouldn't hesitate to do the same.

[Kinser79]

(03-10-2017, 02:05 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 02:01 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Isn't a big part of the Calexit driver (such as it actually is) the immigration issue?  Can we then expect California to have open borders?

You could probably expect status quo.

That is not "open borders." Ever been to the border?

I'd dare most people to try and cross it without documents and anywhere besides an established port of entry.

No one cares about Americans entering Mexico.  Honestly, why would they want to?  Been to Mexico?  I have.  I wasn't impressed--outside of the tourista areas the place is a smelly dump with foul water.

[SomeGuy]

(03-10-2017, 02:05 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 02:01 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Isn't a big part of the Calexit driver (such as it actually is) the immigration issue?  Can we then expect California to have open borders?

You could probably expect status quo.

That is not "open borders." Ever been to the border?

I'd dare most people to try and cross it without documents and anywhere besides an established port of entry.

I do expect the status-quo.  It's why I don't think CALEXIT is going to happen.  I was asking about the policies of a very much not status-quo independent California government.

Although, on your last bit, it seems worthwhile to point out that some 12 million people apparently did just what you said was so unlikely (well, admittedly, a fair amount of that sort of thing is overstays on various temporary visas).

[Odin]

(03-10-2017, 01:49 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: California's politics is driven by a philosophy of high taxes and giving away "free shit".  Other countries tried that.  Venezuela comes to mind.

LOL, California's economy is perfectly fine, as is Minnesota's, another high-tax state. Indeed, Minnesota under Mark Dayton's governorship has proven everything the Republicans claim about high-tax states to be completely wrong and bogus. You guys keep spewing nonsense that is simply factually wrong and has no basis in reality.

And American Progressivism has nothing to do with Chavez's pseudo-leftist populism, Chavez was just a typical populist strongman, a caudillo, who used the language of left-wing politics to get international support for his regime and justify the oil-funded largess he showered on his supporters.

[SomeGuy]

TiE,

I dunno, while what he is proposing is impractical, judging by the content of this thread, and the few responses to what you've posted here on this thread, and responses I have seen to that article where posted elsewhere, I am not certain that the people he's addressing (whom are not the "Red Staters" ostensibly being addressed in the article) are actually taking it as such.  I am not even certain that the author was being facetious in his proposal, which would make the claim that the article was "satire" somewhat tenuous.

[Kinser79]

(03-10-2017, 02:21 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 01:49 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: California's politics is driven by a philosophy of high taxes and giving away "free shit".  Other countries tried that.  Venezuela comes to mind.

LOL, California's economy is perfectly fine, as is Minnesota's, another high-tax state. Indeed, Minnesota under Mark Dayton's governorship has proven everything the Republicans claim about high-tax states to be completely wrong and bogus. You guys keep spewing nonsense that is simply factually wrong and has no basis in reality.

And American Progressivism has nothing to do with Chavez's pseudo-leftist populism, Chavez was just a typical populist strongman, a caudillo, who used the language of left-wing politics to get international support for his regime and justify the oil-funded largess he showered on his supporters.

Are you sure about that?  Seems Californians are fleeing to Texas and Minnesotans are fleeing to places like Florida and Georgia.  Neither state has fully recovered from the Great Depression and are unlikely to (mostly cause it is just now starting to end).  I don't buy the offical unemployment numbers either--the books are cooked.

I will say thought that the low tax Red states are recovering nicely.  Hell in a few decades Alabama might even be a semi-decent place to live provided you have air conditioning.

American Progressivism of the current age has nothing to do with American Progressivism either.  After all it isn't me or Milo or even Benny Shapiro calling for segregation.

[TeacherinExile]

(03-10-2017, 02:24 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: TiE,

I dunno, while what he is proposing is impractical, judging by the content of this thread, and the few responses to what you've posted here on this thread, and responses I have seen to that article where posted elsewhere, I am not certain that the people he's addressing (whom are not the "Red Staters" ostensibly being addressed in the article) are actually taking it as such.  I am not even certain that the author was being facetious in his proposal, which would make the claim that the article was "satire" somewhat tenuous.

Touche...well played.  (And don't withdraw from this forum...just yet; there are posters here with whom you can "cross swords.")  I've said it before, I wasn't the kind of teacher who folded my arms and dared students to cross me.  (Too much of that in our "liberal" institutions of higher learning these days.)  That's no way to develop the critical thinking skills to which so many school reformers pay lip service.  And unlike some Boomers, perhaps, you nor any other Millennial owe us deference simply by virtue of our age.  I'm sure you got your fill of that in the Army.

[SomeGuy]

I appreciate the sentiment, I always enjoyed having you here as well.  And I don't think I will be withdrawing quite yet, though to be honest that has less to do with your kind words than it does that until I resolve my personal situation I have few other intellectual outlets.

And yes (as I have stated before), having gotten out of the Army and school, I have lost my last remaining legal/administrative obligations to defer to my elders.  And, to be honest, I was really bad at it when I had said obligations.

[Odin]

(03-10-2017, 02:39 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I don't buy the offical unemployment numbers either--the books are cooked.

So you are impervious to facts, got it.

Minnesota recovered from the Great Recession just fine.

[SomeGuy]

(03-10-2017, 03:00 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 02:39 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I don't buy the offical unemployment numbers either--the books are cooked.

So you are impervious to facts, got it.

Minnesota recovered from the Great Recession just fine.

How's the labor force participation rate there? (genuinely asking)

Also genuinely asking, what exactly do you do for a living, if you don't mind?

[Odin]

(03-10-2017, 03:02 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 03:00 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 02:39 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I don't buy the offical unemployment numbers either--the books are cooked.

So you are impervious to facts, got it.

Minnesota recovered from the Great Recession just fine.

How's the labor force participation rate there? (genuinely asking)

Also genuinely asking, what exactly do you do for a living, if you don't mind?

70%, and I'm working at a place in Fargo that prints and embroiders clothes, saving up money for grad school because my Clinical Psych B.Sci isn't enough for any of the places here in the Fargo area, they want masters degrees.

[Kinser79]

(03-10-2017, 03:00 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 02:39 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I don't buy the offical unemployment numbers either--the books are cooked.

So you are impervious to facts, got it.

Minnesota recovered from the Great Recession just fine.

No the official numbers are not facts.  For example when you stop drawing unemployment you're magically no longer unemployed.  That you choose to ignore that fact tells me far more about you than my disdain of the official numbers tell you about me.

Not from who I'm talking to.  You might be doing just fine, but others are not doing so well and are leaving if they can afford to do so.  Surprising thing is they are heading south where our economy is starting to heat up.

[SomeGuy]

(03-10-2017, 03:08 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 03:02 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 03:00 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 02:39 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I don't buy the offical unemployment numbers either--the books are cooked.

So you are impervious to facts, got it.

Minnesota recovered from the Great Recession just fine.

How's the labor force participation rate there? (genuinely asking)

Also genuinely asking, what exactly do you do for a living, if you don't mind?

70%, and I'm working at a place in Fargo that prints and embroiders clothes, saving up money for grad school because my Clinical Psych B.Sci isn't enough for any of the places here in the Fargo area, they want masters degrees.

That's pretty good.  Actually, that was sufficiently high that I felt the need to look it up to confirm.

Do you actually print and/or embroider clothes, or are you working in some sort of administrative/sales type function?  Feel free not to respond if you don't feel comfortable.

What do you want to study in grad school?  In preparation for what job?  I was under the impression (one of my brothers has a Psych BA) that the undergrad was pretty useless on its own, did you know that before looking for work or find it out after?

[Kinser79]

(03-10-2017, 03:08 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 03:02 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 03:00 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 02:39 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I don't buy the offical unemployment numbers either--the books are cooked.

So you are impervious to facts, got it.

Minnesota recovered from the Great Recession just fine.

How's the labor force participation rate there? (genuinely asking)

Also genuinely asking, what exactly do you do for a living, if you don't mind?

70%, and I'm working at a place in Fargo that prints and embroiders clothes, saving up money for grad school because my Clinical Psych B.Sci isn't enough for any of the places here in the Fargo area, they want masters degrees.

Even using official numbers a work force participation rate around 70% is still a recession economy.  In fact a recession worse than the recession of 84 which had the lowest work force participation rates until the current depression.

[SomeGuy]

70% is actually pretty good.  With retirees, stay-at-home parents, and students, that's fairly reasonable.  It's higher than the national rate has ever been (since WWII at least)

[Odin]

(03-10-2017, 03:13 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 03:08 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 03:02 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 03:00 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 02:39 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I don't buy the offical unemployment numbers either--the books are cooked.

So you are impervious to facts, got it.

Minnesota recovered from the Great Recession just fine.

How's the labor force participation rate there? (genuinely asking)

Also genuinely asking, what exactly do you do for a living, if you don't mind?

70%, and I'm working at a place in Fargo that prints and embroiders clothes, saving up money for grad school because my Clinical Psych B.Sci isn't enough for any of the places here in the Fargo area, they want masters degrees.

That's pretty good.  Actually, that was sufficiently high that I felt the need to look it up to confirm.

Do you actually print and/or embroider clothes, or are you working in some sort of administrative/sales type function?  Feel free not to respond if you don't feel comfortable.

What do you want to study in grad school?  In preparation for what job?  I was under the impression (one of my brothers has a Psych BA) that the undergrad was pretty useless on its own, did you know that before looking for work or find it out after?

I help with the printing, I use a pad-print machine that looks like a big stamp and does the smaller detail work.

With grad school I think I want to continue on with clinical psychology, I'm hoping to get a position at one of the mental health clinics in the area. And no, I actually didn't know that a bachelor's would be fairly useless on it's own at the time. There ARE positions for people with only a bachelor's degree, but those are the kind of "going out to see clients" type jobs where a car is needed and I can't drive.

[SomeGuy]

Ah, that's fairly cool, then.


Yeah, the higher education system is not terribly good at actually connecting its programs with the existing workplace and its needs.  Which is why it is a pity that it serves as the primary source of vocational training, particularly for "white-collar" jobs.