Millennials and GenZ horribly misidentified

[Eric the Green]

(05-03-2019, 11:00 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 10:53 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: I agree with Eric here. 9/11 was not *that* important. Obviously it was a nightmare for people who died and for their families. It was a shock for everyone. But I remember a New Yorker (my cousin's friend) saying in retrospect it was less devastating than hurricane Sandy in 2012. The financial recession of 2008 was definitely more important for people's daily lives. As for the Internet, there is colossal difference between early and late 2000s. I was born in '86, so I remember the websites of 2001. When MySpace went mainstream in 2006, it made a huge difference.

Coming of age doesn't really mean 18, in the modern context extended adolescence is the norm, so people are more likely to start living an adult life around the age of 22. Using age 22 as a proxy for coming of age works well:
1968 for boomers
1986 for Xers
2006 for millennials
2025 for new Artists born in 2003

9/11 was far more impactful than Hurricane Sandy. 9/11 is when the mentality started to shift towards "Give up your freedoms in the name of society and security. Authority good." The war in Iraq resulting from this also resulted in the deficit that caused the 2008 crash. It's all related. Your coming of age is when your innocence is shattered. For Boomers, it was 1963 when JFK got assassinated. For Millennials it was 2001 or 2008. 2006 was not very significant at all IMO.

The deficit was not a result of the Iraq War, and the deficit did not cause the crash. The deficit is an ongoing condition since Reagan; the wars just made it worse. Also since then are the neo-liberal (free market uber alles, trickle-down economics, hatred of welfare and taxes, etc.) policies dominant since his presidency, including during Bush and Clinton years, that deregulated Wall Street and other predatory companies and created gross inequality and lack of opportunity for many people. The real estate bubble was the basic cause of the 2008 crash, magnified greatly by all the loans and financial instruments based on their phony value.

9-11 did cause passage of threats to freedom, but it did not cause a crisis mood. The nation was not summoned to meet a threat. Instead, the US sent some planes to bomb the Afghans, and then started an un-related but falsely-linked preventive war that divided the nation. The 2008 did create a crisis mood at least for a while, and much of the nation was impacted through financial loss, loss of home, loss of jobs, etc. 

The 4T has dragged on without resolving much of the original problems. Neo-liberalism is still in power, while resistance is growing, and the climate change that caused Sandy and Katrina continues to threaten civilization ever more strongly. Our society is in a cold civil war. Our 4T is a literal seasonal winter which could last well into the next seaculum, but at least if the 4T mood ramps up again as a result of Trump and the resistance, and a strongly-supported Democratic regime takes over at some point during the 4T's remaining years, then progress will restart and will begin to resolve these problems and put the USA on the path toward a middle class free society in a livable climate again.

[Bill the Piper]

(01-06-2020, 12:37 PM)Ghost Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 11:00 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 10:53 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: I agree with Eric here. 9/11 was not *that* important. Obviously it was a nightmare for people who died and for their families. It was a shock for everyone. But I remember a New Yorker (my cousin's friend) saying in retrospect it was less devastating than hurricane Sandy in 2012. The financial recession of 2008 was definitely more important for people's daily lives. As for the Internet, there is colossal difference between early and late 2000s. I was born in '86, so I remember the websites of 2001. When MySpace went mainstream in 2006, it made a huge difference.

Coming of age doesn't really mean 18, in the modern context extended adolescence is the norm, so people are more likely to start living an adult life around the age of 22. Using age 22 as a proxy for coming of age works well:
1968 for boomers
1986 for Xers
2006 for millennials
2025 for new Artists born in 2003

9/11 was far more impactful than Hurricane Sandy. 9/11 is when the mentality started to shift towards "Give up your freedoms in the name of society and security. Authority good." The war in Iraq resulting from this also resulted in the deficit that caused the 2008 crash. It's all related. Your coming of age is when your innocence is shattered. For Boomers, it was 1963 when JFK got assassinated. For Millennials it was 2001 or 2008. 2006 was not very significant at all IMO.

Cases can be made for 2007, considering that was when the iPhone came out, when LCD TVs outsold cathode ray tube TVs, and when the Recession started. But I really can't see how 2006 is significant.

I think that two things that we know for sure are that the key Boomer year was 1968 and that the key Gen X year was 1989. However, the key Millennial year is somewhat up for debate because of how there could be many candidates for it (with good reasons). I might take a stab and say 2011 because that was when Osama bin Laden got killed, when Occupy Wall Street (a big Millennial event) occurred, and when the hipster culture started to become more mainstream. Please correct me if I am wrong.

2006 was the year when millennial online culture became really visible. Also the Iraqi civil war happened which made the American public switch to an anti-war mood. But I agree that 2011 is the key millennial year. 2006 was the start of the millennial zeitgeist, like 1964 was the start of boomer zeitgeist.

Then the youngest boomers were 8 in 1968 and the youngest millennials were 9 in 2011.

[pbrower2a]

Note that the divide between the GI and Silent generation did not get definition until after WWII, when the two generations divided based on how the war affected them. GI's born as late as 1924 could make rank in the war; the Silent born in 1925 or later could not even if they were positioned for such. The early-wave Silent largely were in basic training as the rapid resolution of the war; even if they were under military command they were more likely to spend time as occupation troops (which turned out comparatively safe and easy instead of as combat, which is dangerous. If early-wave Silent did participate in war it was in the Korean Conflict.

We do not yet know when the Crisis will end and probably will not until it really does end. Most Americans had no idea around D-Day that within a year that Nazi Germany would be no more and that Japan would be on the brink of social collapse. Many Americans thought that the Battle of the Bulge indicated that Hitler still had the means for driving the Allies back to England and did not recognize that that last-ditch counter-offensive doomed the Third Reich. Nazi Germany was moribund as soon as the Soviets cut Germany off from the Silesian coal mines now in southwestern Poland and oil fields of Hungary and the Ruhr Valley; Germany then depended heavily upon coal for energy for industry and petroleum for its tanks and aircraft. By the end of the war the Luftwaffe was practically grounded and tank crews had largely become infantry. Such is the view of historians who then had 20/20 hindsight.

[Ghost]

(01-08-2020, 12:00 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Note that the divide between the GI and Silent generation did not get definition until after WWII, when the two generations divided based on how the war affected them. GI's born as late as 1924 could make rank in the war; the Silent born in 1925 or later could not even if they were positioned for such.  The early-wave Silent largely were in basic training  as the rapid resolution of the war; even if they were under military command they were more likely to spend time as occupation troops (which turned out comparatively safe and easy instead of as combat, which is dangerous.  If early-wave Silent did participate in war it was in the Korean Conflict.  

We do not yet know when the Crisis will end and probably will not until it really does end. Most Americans had no idea around D-Day that within a year that Nazi Germany would be no more and that Japan would be on the brink of social collapse. Many Americans thought that the Battle of the Bulge indicated that Hitler still had the means for driving the Allies back to England and did not recognize that that last-ditch counter-offensive doomed the Third Reich. Nazi Germany was moribund as soon as the Soviets cut Germany off from the Silesian coal mines now in southwestern Poland and oil fields of Hungary and the Ruhr Valley; Germany then depended heavily upon coal for energy for industry and petroleum for its tanks and aircraft. By the end of the war the Luftwaffe was practically grounded and tank crews had largely become infantry. Such is the view of historians who then had 20/20 hindsight.

Probably an unrelated reason, but I think that another reason why 1924 was chosen as the end year for the GI Gen was because they were the last to be at elementary school when Black Tuesday occurred.

[Ghost]

(01-07-2020, 06:32 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(01-06-2020, 12:37 PM)Ghost Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 11:00 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 10:53 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: I agree with Eric here. 9/11 was not *that* important. Obviously it was a nightmare for people who died and for their families. It was a shock for everyone. But I remember a New Yorker (my cousin's friend) saying in retrospect it was less devastating than hurricane Sandy in 2012. The financial recession of 2008 was definitely more important for people's daily lives. As for the Internet, there is colossal difference between early and late 2000s. I was born in '86, so I remember the websites of 2001. When MySpace went mainstream in 2006, it made a huge difference.

Coming of age doesn't really mean 18, in the modern context extended adolescence is the norm, so people are more likely to start living an adult life around the age of 22. Using age 22 as a proxy for coming of age works well:
1968 for boomers
1986 for Xers
2006 for millennials
2025 for new Artists born in 2003

9/11 was far more impactful than Hurricane Sandy. 9/11 is when the mentality started to shift towards "Give up your freedoms in the name of society and security. Authority good." The war in Iraq resulting from this also resulted in the deficit that caused the 2008 crash. It's all related. Your coming of age is when your innocence is shattered. For Boomers, it was 1963 when JFK got assassinated. For Millennials it was 2001 or 2008. 2006 was not very significant at all IMO.

Cases can be made for 2007, considering that was when the iPhone came out, when LCD TVs outsold cathode ray tube TVs, and when the Recession started. But I really can't see how 2006 is significant.

I think that two things that we know for sure are that the key Boomer year was 1968 and that the key Gen X year was 1989. However, the key Millennial year is somewhat up for debate because of how there could be many candidates for it (with good reasons). I might take a stab and say 2011 because that was when Osama bin Laden got killed, when Occupy Wall Street (a big Millennial event) occurred, and when the hipster culture started to become more mainstream. Please correct me if I am wrong.

2006 was the year when millennial online culture became really visible. Also the Iraqi civil war happened which made the American public switch to an anti-war mood. But I agree that 2011 is the key millennial year. 2006 was the start of the millennial zeitgeist, like 1964 was the start of boomer zeitgeist.

Then the youngest boomers were 8 in 1968 and the youngest millennials were 9 in 2011.

It also seems to coincide with the Uranus cycle saeculum length (84.3 years).

[pbrower2a]

(01-08-2020, 07:42 AM)Ghost Wrote:

(01-08-2020, 12:00 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Note that the divide between the GI and Silent generation did not get definition until after WWII, when the two generations divided based on how the war affected them. GI's born as late as 1924 could make rank in the war; the Silent born in 1925 or later could not even if they were positioned for such.  The early-wave Silent largely were in basic training  as the rapid resolution of the war; even if they were under military command they were more likely to spend time as occupation troops (which turned out comparatively safe and easy instead of as combat, which is dangerous.  If early-wave Silent did participate in war it was in the Korean Conflict.  

We do not yet know when the Crisis will end and probably will not until it really does end. Most Americans had no idea around D-Day that within a year that Nazi Germany would be no more and that Japan would be on the brink of social collapse. Many Americans thought that the Battle of the Bulge indicated that Hitler still had the means for driving the Allies back to England and did not recognize that that last-ditch counter-offensive doomed the Third Reich. Nazi Germany was moribund as soon as the Soviets cut Germany off from the Silesian coal mines now in southwestern Poland and oil fields of Hungary and the Ruhr Valley; Germany then depended heavily upon coal for energy for industry and petroleum for its tanks and aircraft. By the end of the war the Luftwaffe was practically grounded and tank crews had largely become infantry. Such is the view of historians who then had 20/20 hindsight.

Probably an unrelated reason, but I think that another reason why 1924 was chosen as the end year for the GI Gen was because they were the last to be at elementary school when Black Tuesday occurred.

...and the last to have any real (if bare) childhood memory of time before the Crash. Good point!

[pbrower2a]

(01-08-2020, 09:57 AM)Ghost Wrote:

(01-07-2020, 06:32 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(01-06-2020, 12:37 PM)Ghost Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 11:00 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 10:53 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: I agree with Eric here. 9/11 was not *that* important. Obviously it was a nightmare for people who died and for their families. It was a shock for everyone. But I remember a New Yorker (my cousin's friend) saying in retrospect it was less devastating than hurricane Sandy in 2012. The financial recession of 2008 was definitely more important for people's daily lives. As for the Internet, there is colossal difference between early and late 2000s. I was born in '86, so I remember the websites of 2001. When MySpace went mainstream in 2006, it made a huge difference.

Coming of age doesn't really mean 18, in the modern context extended adolescence is the norm, so people are more likely to start living an adult life around the age of 22. Using age 22 as a proxy for coming of age works well:
1968 for boomers
1986 for Xers
2006 for millennials
2025 for new Artists born in 2003

9/11 was far more impactful than Hurricane Sandy. 9/11 is when the mentality started to shift towards "Give up your freedoms in the name of society and security. Authority good." The war in Iraq resulting from this also resulted in the deficit that caused the 2008 crash. It's all related. Your coming of age is when your innocence is shattered. For Boomers, it was 1963 when JFK got assassinated. For Millennials it was 2001 or 2008. 2006 was not very significant at all IMO.

Cases can be made for 2007, considering that was when the iPhone came out, when LCD TVs outsold cathode ray tube TVs, and when the Recession started. But I really can't see how 2006 is significant.

I think that two things that we know for sure are that the key Boomer year was 1968 and that the key Gen X year was 1989. However, the key Millennial year is somewhat up for debate because of how there could be many candidates for it (with good reasons). I might take a stab and say 2011 because that was when Osama bin Laden got killed, when Occupy Wall Street (a big Millennial event) occurred, and when the hipster culture started to become more mainstream. Please correct me if I am wrong.

2006 was the year when millennial online culture became really visible. Also the Iraqi civil war happened which made the American public switch to an anti-war mood. But I agree that 2011 is the key millennial year. 2006 was the start of the millennial zeitgeist, like 1964 was the start of boomer zeitgeist.

Then the youngest boomers were 8 in 1968 and the youngest millennials were 9 in 2011.

It also seems to coincide with the Uranus cycle saeculum length (84.3 years).

Consumer technologies do not bring traumatic change as do financial panics, wars, or usurpation of power. People do not adopt any technology all at the same time. If the automobile does not divide the Lost from the GI -- and I have never seen anyone claim that the automobile separates the Lost from the GI's -- then how could something like an i-device make such a difference? The potential of participation in World War I and the raw deal for returning WWI vets made a huge difference.

[Ghost]

(01-08-2020, 10:06 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-08-2020, 09:57 AM)Ghost Wrote:

(01-07-2020, 06:32 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(01-06-2020, 12:37 PM)Ghost Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 11:00 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote: 9/11 was far more impactful than Hurricane Sandy. 9/11 is when the mentality started to shift towards "Give up your freedoms in the name of society and security. Authority good." The war in Iraq resulting from this also resulted in the deficit that caused the 2008 crash. It's all related. Your coming of age is when your innocence is shattered. For Boomers, it was 1963 when JFK got assassinated. For Millennials it was 2001 or 2008. 2006 was not very significant at all IMO.

Cases can be made for 2007, considering that was when the iPhone came out, when LCD TVs outsold cathode ray tube TVs, and when the Recession started. But I really can't see how 2006 is significant.

I think that two things that we know for sure are that the key Boomer year was 1968 and that the key Gen X year was 1989. However, the key Millennial year is somewhat up for debate because of how there could be many candidates for it (with good reasons). I might take a stab and say 2011 because that was when Osama bin Laden got killed, when Occupy Wall Street (a big Millennial event) occurred, and when the hipster culture started to become more mainstream. Please correct me if I am wrong.

2006 was the year when millennial online culture became really visible. Also the Iraqi civil war happened which made the American public switch to an anti-war mood. But I agree that 2011 is the key millennial year. 2006 was the start of the millennial zeitgeist, like 1964 was the start of boomer zeitgeist.

Then the youngest boomers were 8 in 1968 and the youngest millennials were 9 in 2011.

It also seems to coincide with the Uranus cycle saeculum length (84.3 years).

Consumer technologies do not bring traumatic change as do financial panics, wars, or usurpation of power. People do not adopt any technology all at the same time. If the automobile does not divide the Lost from the GI -- and I have never seen anyone claim that the automobile separates the Lost from the GI's -- then how could something like an i-device make such a difference? The potential of participation in World War I and the raw deal for returning WWI vets made a huge difference.

I feel like the only generation that was defined by consumer technology was (to an extent) Generation Z/Homelanders, which supposedly made Generation Z begin in 1995 according to various sources because of how they are the first to be born after Windows 95 (even though it came out on August 24, 1995). 

I think that Windows 95 also resulted in a shockingly early starting date for Millennials according to a small minority of sources (1974) because of how they were the first to graduate college post-Windows 95.

[beechnut79]

(01-08-2020, 10:06 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-08-2020, 09:57 AM)Ghost Wrote:

(01-07-2020, 06:32 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(01-06-2020, 12:37 PM)Ghost Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 11:00 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote: 9/11 was far more impactful than Hurricane Sandy. 9/11 is when the mentality started to shift towards "Give up your freedoms in the name of society and security. Authority good." The war in Iraq resulting from this also resulted in the deficit that caused the 2008 crash. It's all related. Your coming of age is when your innocence is shattered. For Boomers, it was 1963 when JFK got assassinated. For Millennials it was 2001 or 2008. 2006 was not very significant at all IMO.

Cases can be made for 2007, considering that was when the iPhone came out, when LCD TVs outsold cathode ray tube TVs, and when the Recession started. But I really can't see how 2006 is significant.

I think that two things that we know for sure are that the key Boomer year was 1968 and that the key Gen X year was 1989. However, the key Millennial year is somewhat up for debate because of how there could be many candidates for it (with good reasons). I might take a stab and say 2011 because that was when Osama bin Laden got killed, when Occupy Wall Street (a big Millennial event) occurred, and when the hipster culture started to become more mainstream. Please correct me if I am wrong.

2006 was the year when millennial online culture became really visible. Also the Iraqi civil war happened which made the American public switch to an anti-war mood. But I agree that 2011 is the key millennial year. 2006 was the start of the millennial zeitgeist, like 1964 was the start of boomer zeitgeist.

Then the youngest boomers were 8 in 1968 and the youngest millennials were 9 in 2011.

It also seems to coincide with the Uranus cycle saeculum length (84.3 years).

Consumer technologies do not bring traumatic change as do financial panics, wars, or usurpation of power. People do not adopt any technology all at the same time. If the automobile does not divide the Lost from the GI -- and I have never seen anyone claim that the automobile separates the Lost from the GI's -- then how could something like an i-device make such a difference? The potential of participation in World War I and the raw deal for returning WWI vets made a huge difference.

It was WWI vets who got the raw deal, faced with moral nagging that led to the prohibition of liquor and the Bonus Army revolt of 1932. WWII vets were able to benefit from the newly enacted GI Bill, spawned from lessons learned from post-WWI mistakes which enabled them to buy homes and otherwise participate in what many still feel is America's Golden Age (even though it did have dark sides such as McCarthyism). It was a time when most households could be supported handily on one paycheck. I more and more feel that those days will probably never come again. August 5, 1981, the day Reagan fired all the air traffic controllers, stands out in many minds as the requiem for middle class prosperity as we had come to know it. This branch of society has never really recovered in the nearly four decades since.

[Marypoza]

(05-04-2019, 04:31 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Skipping back to the onset of the 2T in 1964:

The average Boomer was born in about 1952, so the average Boomer was 12 years old shifting from childhood into youth.
The average Silent was born in about 1933, so the average age was 31 years old shifting from youth into middle age.
The average GI was born in about 1912, so the average age was 53 years old shifting from middle age to elder.
The average Lost was born in about 1892, so the average age was 72 years old shifting from elder to old age.

-- you don't think the 2T started in 1967 with the Summer of Love? why 1964?

[Ghost]

(01-10-2020, 04:56 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(05-04-2019, 04:31 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Skipping back to the onset of the 2T in 1964:

The average Boomer was born in about 1952, so the average Boomer was 12 years old shifting from childhood into youth.
The average Silent was born in about 1933, so the average age was 31 years old shifting from youth into middle age.
The average GI was born in about 1912, so the average age was 53 years old shifting from middle age to elder.
The average Lost was born in about 1892, so the average age was 72 years old shifting from elder to old age.

-- you don't think the 2T started in 1967 with the Summer of Love? why 1964?

Why not 1963 when JFK was assassinated?

[Warren Dew]

(01-10-2020, 08:12 PM)Ghost Wrote:

(01-10-2020, 04:56 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(05-04-2019, 04:31 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Skipping back to the onset of the 2T in 1964:

The average Boomer was born in about 1952, so the average Boomer was 12 years old shifting from childhood into youth.
The average Silent was born in about 1933, so the average age was 31 years old shifting from youth into middle age.
The average GI was born in about 1912, so the average age was 53 years old shifting from middle age to elder.
The average Lost was born in about 1892, so the average age was 72 years old shifting from elder to old age.

-- you don't think the 2T started in 1967 with the Summer of Love? why 1964?

Why not 1963 when JFK was assassinated?

I've never met a Boomer who cared about the JFK assassination.  It was the Silents who venerated him.  As a GI, Kennedy would have been seen as an oppressor by the Boomers if he had lasted long enough.