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Do Civics get anything good in the cycle?
#21
(05-31-2019, 02:11 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Yes, Kinser has a good point.  1T can be a good time to be a Civic.  Such a time can seem bland/boring to other archetypes; but I didn't have my young adulthood during a Crisis era.  And for Civics on the elder side of a generation gap, the calm of a 1T must seem pleasant compared to the upheaval of a 2T.

1T will be considered very pleasant to those who are Nomads too.  Before the new prophets come along to burn everything down, and while bland, the world isn't turning to shit like it does in the other three turnings.

One of the reasons I hope to die before the new prophets get out of the "Annoying Mr. Wilson" phase.
It really is all mathematics.

Turn on to Daddy, Tune in to Nationalism, Drop out of UN/NATO/WTO/TPP/NAFTA/CAFTA Globalism.
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#22
Didn't many of the Lost die before the Boom Awakening really got going?

Perhaps the first few Awakening years weren't so bad for retired Lost. It has been noted that the Civic Order begins to decline in late 2T.
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#23
Depends. Women tend to live longer than men--mostly because they take less physically demanding jobs--so many of the lost that survived deep into the last 2T were women. I have faint memories of my lost Great Grandmother but neither of my Great Grandfathers survived past the 1960s.

Based on diary entries in my Great Grandfather's diary (that he kept from when he was about 14 till he was too ill to write, some 50 something years) he considered desegregation the start of the break down of the social order. He actually feared that blacks being allowed to shop in white owned stores and eat in white owned restaurants would eventually force out black owned businesses.

In a way he was right about the result if he was totally off base as to the cause.
It really is all mathematics.

Turn on to Daddy, Tune in to Nationalism, Drop out of UN/NATO/WTO/TPP/NAFTA/CAFTA Globalism.
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#24
(05-30-2019, 10:35 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:
(05-30-2019, 09:35 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote: It seems like they get all of the bad. Is there any good side that extends to our lives, not the life of some hypothetical children in the future?

Yes.  You get to spend most of your prime earning years in a stable if bland society that reflects your generation's values for good or ill.

By the time the crisis is over I'll be in my early 40s. How is this good? I guess the only other good thing is I'll die before the next crisis hits.
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#25
(06-29-2019, 06:35 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote:
(05-30-2019, 10:35 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:
(05-30-2019, 09:35 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote: It seems like they get all of the bad. Is there any good side that extends to our lives, not the life of some hypothetical children in the future?

Yes.  You get to spend most of your prime earning years in a stable if bland society that reflects your generation's values for good or ill.

By the time the crisis is over I'll be in my early 40s. How is this good? I guess the only other good thing is I'll die before the next crisis hits.

You will still be able to start over, or at least build upon what you did before. A stable if bland society is a good thing for that.

Most significantly, in the hard times of a Crisis, you will have likely developed some good habits. Good habits are well worth the sacrifice of some evanescent delights and feeling some frustration at seeing others seem to have fun only to end up broke or hurt.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#26
(05-30-2019, 09:35 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote: It seems like they get all of the bad. Is there any good side that extends to our lives, not the life of some hypothetical children in the future?

Civics get coddled and spoon fed as children and youth.  That's what causes them to be so entitled for the rest of their lives, because they think being coddled is the normal state of life. Contrast this with reactives, who get neglected in their childhood and youth.

Civics are the cannon fodder of the crisis.  That's the main downside.

The result of the crisis is a consensus, which everyone better conform to or else.  Since the consensus is dictated by Civics, a majority of Civics will like this consensus, so there's a good side.  The others just shut up and pretend to agree, I guess.  There were plenty of Civics who said before WWII that we should stay out of it; they all quit saying that afterwards, one way or another.

In old age, Civics get to keep being entitled with respect to material goods, in return for giving up political control to Idealists.  I imagine most Civics consider that to be a good compromise.

Quote:Great. We get a totalitarian society whether left or right. So fun for me to be surrounded by assholes who want to tell me what to do.

Aspies are likely particularly poorly suited to the Civic lifecycle.  For the average sheeple, it's pretty good.

Quote:pbrower [?]

GIs pushed critical thinking upon Boom kids, and it worked to keep most of them from becoming narcissistic fascists 

It wasn't the GIs who pushed critical thinking on Boom kids, since the GIs, as Civics, were ultimate conformists that considered critical thinking dangerously radical.  It was the Silents that taught Boomers to think for themselves, and for some of them, that thinking ended up being critical thinking.

Quote:AspieMillenial:

By the time the crisis is over I'll be in my early 40s. How is this good?

Life begins at 50, so it will be in plenty of time.  Whether the stability will be good for you is another question.  I wouldn't be surprised if the neurotypical Millenials start incarcerating the nonneurotypicals in asylums again, on the theory that they have criminal tendencies.
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#27
(06-29-2019, 11:41 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(05-30-2019, 09:35 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote: It seems like they get all of the bad. Is there any good side that extends to our lives, not the life of some hypothetical children in the future?

Civics get coddled and spoon fed as children and youth.  That's what causes them to be so entitled for the rest of their lives, because they think being coddled is the normal state of life. Contrast this with reactives, who get neglected in their childhood and youth.

Howe and Strauss saw Reactive children neglected and often abused even if they got a good material environment. The Civic generations may have known (economic) hardship in childhood, but they got some solid protection and direction. 

Quote:Civics are the cannon fodder of the crisis.  That's the main downside.

For real cannon fodder, look at the still-young Gilded on both sides in the American Civil War (but they became Civic-like by default, at least in the North, after the Civil War)... or the Lost in western Europe. I know about the horror of the meatgrinder of the Great Patriotic War from the initial invasion of the Soviet Union to the fall of Berlin. Likewise the Sino-Japanese front in the Pacific Theater. In western Europe, the Wehrmacht endured huge casualties -- many of them captures. Given the choice between surrendering to the British or Americans, fighting to the death against the Soviet Union, or becoming a POW of Stalin... surrendering to American, British, or Free French armies was wise if things got desperate. Of course, Hitler, Stalin, Chiang, and Tojo were all horrible leaders willing to sacrifice millions for even slight gains, let alone saving their skins.


Quote:The result of the crisis is a consensus, which everyone better conform to or else.  Since the consensus is dictated by Civics, a majority of Civics will like this consensus, so there's a good side.  The others just shut up and pretend to agree, I guess.  There were plenty of Civics who said before WWII that we should stay out of it; they all quit saying that afterwards, one way or another.

In old age, Civics get to keep being entitled with respect to material goods, in return for giving up political control to Idealists.  I imagine most Civics consider that to be a good compromise.

Precisely.


Quote:
Quote:Great. We get a totalitarian society whether left or right. So fun for me to be surrounded by assholes who want to tell me what to do.


Aspies are likely particularly poorly suited to the Civic lifecycle.  For the average sheeple, it's pretty good.

People with Asperger's are likely to ape conformism. It's the facial expressions that cannot conform. Aspies can find functions in bureaucracies.

Quote:
Quote:pbrower [?]

GIs pushed critical thinking upon Boom kids, and it worked to keep most of them from becoming narcissistic fascists 

It wasn't the GIs who pushed critical thinking on Boom kids, since the GIs, as Civics, were ultimate conformists that considered critical thinking dangerously radical.  It was the Silents that taught Boomers to think for themselves, and for some of them, that thinking ended up being critical thinking.

Howe and Strauss suggest that GI parents and teachers had learned about fascism and later Communist rule, both of which demanded extreme conformity and subordination. Critical thought would allegedly prevent that. Critical thought gave those who learned it as a habit to reject any totalitarian ideology.

People around Trump seem not to practice critical thought. They never learned it.


Quote:
Quote:AspieMillenial:

By the time the crisis is over I'll be in my early 40s. How is this good?

Life begins at 50, so it will be in plenty of time.  Whether the stability will be good for you is another question.  I wouldn't be surprised if the neurotypical Millenials start incarcerating the nonneurotypicals in asylums again, on the theory that they have criminal tendencies.

The system will have enough trouble with the 'dangerous' heretics of politics or religion.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#28
(06-14-2019, 01:02 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Didn't many of the Lost die before the Boom Awakening really got going?

Perhaps the first few Awakening years weren't so bad for retired Lost. It has been noted that the Civic Order begins to decline in late 2T.

If the lost had lived on longer, maybe the 2T would have started later... or had trouble.

(06-29-2019, 11:41 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(05-30-2019, 09:35 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote: It seems like they get all of the bad. Is there any good side that extends to our lives, not the life of some hypothetical children in the future?

Civics get coddled and spoon fed as children and youth.  That's what causes them to be so entitled for the rest of their lives, because they think being coddled is the normal state of life. Contrast this with reactives, who get neglected in their childhood and youth.
Quote:pbrower [?]

GIs pushed critical thinking upon Boom kids, and it worked to keep most of them from becoming narcissistic fascists 

It wasn't the GIs who pushed critical thinking on Boom kids, since the GIs, as Civics, were ultimate conformists that considered critical thinking dangerously radical.  It was the Silents that taught Boomers to think for themselves, and for some of them, that thinking ended up being critical thinking.

S&H explicitly say that the GIs thought that they had been too conformist in retrospect, so they encouraged their kids. The Silents definitely did, of course.

And you description "Civics get coddled and spoon fed as children and youth." rather fits the Boomers.
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#29
Boomers get coddled but dump the spoon on the floor.
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#30
(07-12-2019, 07:49 PM)Hintergrund Wrote:
(06-14-2019, 01:02 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Didn't many of the Lost die before the Boom Awakening really got going?

Perhaps the first few Awakening years weren't so bad for retired Lost.  It has been noted that the Civic Order begins to decline in late 2T.

If the lost had lived on longer, maybe the 2T would have started later... or had trouble.

(06-29-2019, 11:41 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(05-30-2019, 09:35 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote: It seems like they get all of the bad. Is there any good side that extends to our lives, not the life of some hypothetical children in the future?

Civics get coddled and spoon fed as children and youth.  That's what causes them to be so entitled for the rest of their lives, because they think being coddled is the normal state of life. Contrast this with reactives, who get neglected in their childhood and youth.
Quote:pbrower [?]

GIs pushed critical thinking upon Boom kids, and it worked to keep most of them from becoming narcissistic fascists 

It wasn't the GIs who pushed critical thinking on Boom kids, since the GIs, as Civics, were ultimate conformists that considered critical thinking dangerously radical.  It was the Silents that taught Boomers to think for themselves, and for some of them, that thinking ended up being critical thinking.

S&H explicitly say that the GIs thought that they had been too conformist in retrospect, so they encouraged their kids. The Silents definitely did, of course.

And you description "Civics get coddled and spoon fed as children and youth." rather fits the Boomers.

Civic generations do not get coddled. They get directed. If I had to choose whether I got good and credible direction or got every material delight and great ease as a child, I would take the hardscrabble reality that the GI Generation largely knew (and I can tell you about how rough GI childhood could be in material reality -- every subsequent generation has had things far easier) in return for firm and principled direction. I am going to go further along that line in another post.

The technological world that the GI generation offered few indulgences to most youth. There were phonographs and radios, but those were pricey. Of course a phonograph was expensive enough, but the records for them were themselves costly, too. The GI Generation created the essence of the technology that we would find tolerable today -- the polio vaccine, television, expressways, collapsible steering columns, transistors, mainframe computers, high-fidelity stereo with LP records, cheap paperback books, TV dinners (predecessors of our microwave meals), air travel, and air conditioning. I could name more.

GI workers formed the most effective and pervasive unions that America ever knew... and those unions helped GI adults get what were truly living wages in the 1930s. That is right - the 1930s. As soldiers, the GIs were the optimal soldiers, sailors, and airmen for winning the one war that America absolutely, positively had to win if America was to survive as the Shining City on the Hill. Such GI stars in baseball alone, mostly GI, did something other than hit home runs or throw strikeouts  at some time during WWII:

Luke Appling United States Army
Al Barlick United States Coast Guard
Yogi Berra United States Navy
Willard Brown United States Army
Nestor Chylak United States Army
Mickey Cochrane United States Navy
Leon Day United States Army
Bill Dickey United States Navy
Joe DiMaggio United States Army
Larry Doby United States Navy
Bobby Doerr United States Army
Bob Feller United States Navy
Charlie Gehringer United States Navy
Joe Gordon United States Army
Hank Greenberg United States Army
Billy Herman United States Navy
Monte Irvin United States Army
Ralph Kiner United States Navy
Bob Lemon United States Navy
Ted Lyons United States Marines
Larry MacPhail United States Army
Lee MacPhail United States Navy
Johnny Mize United States Navy
Stan Musial United States Navy
Pee Wee Reese United States Navy
Phil Rizzuto United States Navy
Robin Roberts United States Army
Jackie Robinson United States Army
Red Ruffing United States Army
Red Schoendienst United States Army
Enos Slaughter United States Army
Duke Snider United States Navy
Warren Spahn United States Army
Bill Veeck United States Marines
Ted Williams United States Marines
Early Wynn United States Army

Baseball Hall of Fame, only -- and some of these cut significant parts of lucrative careers out.


If GIs seem coddled with the GI Bill -- they earned it in such places as Guadalcanal and Bastogne. GI scriptwriters, actors, and directors played their role in creating some of the finest cinema -- most of it still eminently watchable -- in the marvelous cinematic years just before America got involved in WWII. GIs established the entertainment part of television and made it squeaky-clean and safe for about twenty years.


OK, so what of the Civil Rights Movement? GI adults got their role and handled it well. GI blacks may have been ahead of GI whites in struggling for it, but GI whites generally made the right choices. Don't underestimate the roles of Rosa Parks and Thurgood Marshall. Maybe GI soldiers who had faced much the same ideology that the KKK offered among the Axis enemy in WWII could decide that the segregationist cause was simply wrong.

Maybe a generation that knew how rough American life could be, especially if it lacked WASP privilege, would endeavor to make a better world. The generations that saw the completed project but not the process could take it for granted.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#31
If I had to make the choice between developing good habits and getting the material goodies of life easily -- I would take the good habits, even if those came under great hardship (as in farm chores in the 1930s or military service in the 1940s).

Here is someone who knows well.

Quote:At 88, Warren Buffett has a lot of wisdom — and sharing it with students is one of the many wonderful things he’s known for.

One lesson the Berkshire Hathaway CEO loves to teach is the importance of developing good personal qualities at a young age.

Establishing good habits — even the little ones, like saying “please” and “thank you” — is a major key to success, he told Yahoo Finance’s editor-in-chief last year.


Buffett elaborated on the topic in a talk to MBA students from the University of Florida in 1998.

The legendary investor started his speech with a little game: “Think for a moment that I granted you a right — you can buy 10% of one of your classmate’s earnings for the rest of their lifetime.”

The decision should be based on merit, Buffett advised, so it’d be unwise to pick the person with the highest IQ, the richest parents or the most energy.

“There’s nothing wrong with getting the highest grades in the class, but that isn’t going to be the quality that sets apart a big winner from the rest of the pack,” said Buffett.

He continued: “You’d probably pick the person who has leadership qualities, who is able to get others to carry out their interests. That would be the person who is generous, honest and gave credit to other people for their own ideas.”

And here comes the hooker: In addition to this person, Buffett told the students they had to sell short another one of their classmates and pay 10% of what they do.

“You wouldn’t pick the person with the lowest IQ,” he said. “You’d think about the person who turned you off, the person who is egotistical, who is greedy, who cuts corners, who is slightly dishonest.”

If you see any of those qualities in yourself, you can get rid of them. “It’s simply a question of which you decide,” he said.

Don’t be someone who turns people off

The big takeaway here is that if you want to be the person who is successful, who everyone wants to hire, you need to build habits of integrity.

There are a handful of ways to do that:

   Fulfill your promises
   Be honest
   Be trustworthy
   Give credit where credit is due
   Be mindful and emotionally intuitive
   Manifest humility
   Be willing to admit you’re wrong
   Offer help when it’s needed
   Treat others with respect
   Be charitable
   Be patient

Intelligence and ambition are valuable traits, but even so, a lack of integrity won’t make you stand apart from the others — nor will it get you hired, at least not by Buffett.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/12/billiona...ket-newtab
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#32
Buffett is a Silent, his mentor Ben Graham was Lost. But where is the X-er Buffett is mentoring in the same way he was mentored by Graham? If there is none, I'd say he's pretty ungrateful. Typical Silent behavior: They talk a lot, but prefer to give away crumbs to ignorant youths who'd never suspect that they are screwed by the Silents.

Silents had all the advantages of a good education (also thanks to their low numbers), but prefer to keep all the tricks of the trade to themselves. While pretending that they only want to save the youth from hard schoolwork. don't read their speeches, watch what they do in practice! By their fruits, indeed.
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