To impeach, or not to impeach

[pbrower2a]

(10-04-2019, 04:03 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(10-04-2019, 03:13 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-03-2019, 02:00 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-02-2019, 11:55 PM)taramarie Wrote: LOL!!! One of my childhood memories was "I did not have sex with that woman." Which he did. Now who is lying here! Good grief how can someone say that wasn't a lie? Classic xer is right here and you are lying for Bill.

Agreed: sex isn't just intercourse, and Bill certainly had sex.  The only real difference between the Clinton affair and Trump's actions (too many to list) is personal versus public crimes.  Trump is involving the nation in his crap.

Right. And Trump's sexual behavior is criminal, whereas Clinton's was not. The only question was whether he lied about it under oath. In his mind, he did not, because he defined sex as intercourse, and what he had was oral sex. He later admitted that his behavior was inappropriate, and that he covered it up to protect his family. I admire Hillary for taking him to the closet, and then forgiving him. But to impeach him based on that was certainly nothing more than politics by a corrupt group of oligarchic Republican politicians who, it was CERTAINLY proven, had much WORSE sexual behavior in their OWN backgrounds. They were a bunch of stupid, lying, greedy hypocrites. To focus anything at all on Clinton's sexual actions and testimony is pretty silly and, what's worse, terribly distracting, and deliberately so by those who defend a compulsive liar and destroyer of everything of value-- our fake orange president.

Well other than the fake president part which he's not. He apparently legally is your president, I could be wrong about the legal part and correct if wrong. I hope that the USA has not become so corrupt to illegally anoint someone a president and it can be debated given the voting power of those in higher positions compared to the average joe in your country, and I do say in your country for a reason....thankfully. Other than these things I do agree with you here. Just don't lie for him, oral sex is still sex regardless if that is all that happened or not. But is it anyone's business, absolutely not. Trump as we know sounds far more sinister and not in a consensual way.

The impeachment process can move quickly. Democrats will almost certainly impeach him, as they need a simple majority. The offenses of which he will be charged will not be trivial. Many who thought it premature and unwise to impeach the President have decided quickly that a Congressional inquiry (the first phase) is now necessary due to the severity of the allegations. Democrats rarely have the political advantage on issues of national security, but Donald Trump seems to have handed it too them on a silver platter. 

What the Republican majority does in the Senate will reflect such moral compass as they have or lack. 

...Donald Trump is President because he won the critical 'right votes' instead of winning a plurality. Of the 537 electoral votes involving the President, the ones that he does not get are in a few states (some of them very large, including California) that vote Democratic by 15% and at times as much as 25% more Democratic, that means that 181 electoral votes are beyond any contest by Republicans. But a state such as California has no more clout in the Presidential election whether it goes 75-25 for the Democrat or 52-47. In an even election the Republican is up by nearly 8% in other states on the whole. Trump could win by because it is difficult for a Democrat to win in the other states.

The advantage of that system is that a state gets no advantage for disenfranchising voters or doing overt fraud, things difficult for the federal system to stop in the distant past. As an example, blacks rarely voted in some states before 1965, and in some states a Democrat could expect to win 80% or more of the vote once winning the Democratic Party. (In those days, there was about as much meaningful competition in statewide elections as there was in a typical Commie state).

The disadvantage is that with winner-take-all, large minorities can be ignored in some states. Texas has large Hispanic and black minorities, but those are usually irrelevant in Presidential elections. Likewise, agrarian interests in New York and Illinois get neglected. Nobody questions whether Democrats win by huge majorities in... Maryland... honestly. I would not want an election result in an otherwise-close election being decided by politicians in a few states stuffing ballot boxes to fix the result nationwide. 

The problem of Donald Trump is that too many of us fell for a demagogue who promised much that Americans wanted but most politicians recognize that they can never deliver. Demagogues are the bane of democracy, whether Hitler, Peron, Duvalier, Mugabe, or Trump.           

.................

I can predict several possible results.

1. Democrats either fail to bring up impeachment or lack the votes with which to do so. That was possible a week ago, but not anymore. 

2. Trump resigns either in disgrace or on such a pretext as "reasons of health" while proceedings are underway. This is hard to guess.

3. The Senate finds some means of a peremptory dismissal of charges through a quick procedural vote that denies a meaningful trial. That will look very bad -- as a cover-up done for partisan reasons and contrary to judicial process. Such would ensure that Trump gets to stay in office until January 21, 2021... but that Democrats end up with a Senate majority after such a scandal. Possible, and a poor choice. 

4. Trump gets acquitted as he can show himself completely innocent and goes on to lead a smashing GOP victory. Yeah, sure... many offenders claim innocence in what prove to be easy cases for conviction. Just see how the case goes.

5. The case is shaky, and we have ambiguity in a partisan split on conviction and removal. See #4. 

6. The case is strong, but the partisan divide is strong enough that Trump wins acquittal solely on the basis of a partisan split. That will not look good in the 2020 election for Trump or GOP Senators. 

7.  Republican Senators see a strong case and decide that the best hope for political relevance is to abandon Trump and take due chances on issues in 2020. We get a new President whose abilities will determine whether he gets elected in 2020 -- or an effective caretaker.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-02-2019, 12:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-02-2019, 01:01 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-01-2019, 09:37 AM)David Horn Wrote: This is one area that polling seems to handle poorly.  Impeachment is a political death sentence, so supporters (especially Trump supporters) are uniquely unwilling to agree to it ... until they are.  That's the rub.  The change of heart is unpredictable, and tied to emotional rather than intellectual evidence.  Is a supporter shocked or sufficiently dismayed by some aspect of or action by POTUS to push him (less likely) or her (more likely) over the edge?  Once moved, does that person simply withdraw from the arena or become an active antagonist?  Impossible to know until it happens.

We're still in the early days.  I suspect that the temperament in the Democratic Party makes impeachment unavoidable, but the aftermath is still unknown and, frankly, unknowable.  Public opinion can be driven as much as it can drive others to action or inaction.    In another month, we'll have a better feel for where this is going, if anywhere.

Well, I hope the Democrats have someone (a whistle blower) with something more to offer than hearsay for evidence. You'd think blue Americans would understand that they live in a country where it takes more than just hearsay or hatred or fear of someone to convict or legally impeach someone. The blues keep showing us glimpses of their future system of justice and Americans continue rejecting it or ignoring it in favor of sticking with their own. Now, I don't really care if you're strung up by a group of blues for something someone else may have said or thought about you for whatever reason. Heck, I don't care if groups of blues start slaughtering each other the same way for the same clueless/lawless reasons. Right now, I'd say public opinion/attitude on this matter is pretty much "same old liberal/PROGRESSIVE crap different day" at this point.

You red guys are funny! It has been confirmed by officials that this was more than hearsay; the whistleblower is a credible witness. There are abundant grounds to impeach and convict Drumpface. He uses his office for his personal gain, such as hotel business, and accepts gifts from other countries, including accusations against his political opponents. That violates the emoluments clause. He called up a foreign leader and asked him to develop a false conspiracy about his political opponent and accuse that opponent of crimes he didn't commit, as a "favor though" in exchange for weapons to fight the Russian invaders of his country. He asked his counsel to fire Mueller directly, and then covered it up and stopped that counsel from testifying. Nixon was forced to resign by Senate Republicans, including Barry Goldwater, for just such conduct. He obstructs justice at every turn, and refuses to turn over his tax returns. That is just the tip of the iceberg. Mueller couldn't indict him for collusion only because Trump had destroyed the evidence, and couldn't indict him for obstruction of justice because the Attorney General said he couldn't indict him for it, but he clearly laid out 10 instances of it. 

The only reason he isn't gone is because of you guys-- all of you red-base people, mostly rural and some suburban white voters who like him because they are indoctrinated, prejudiced, and have their egos stoked by trickle-down, self-reliance, anti-tax and pro-gun rhetoric that appeals to those same prejudices. Public opinion is shifting though. There is a majority now saying the impeachment inquiry should go forward. That doesn't mean you guys won't still back him, and it doesn't mean your senators will convict him, knowing that you guys might not support them in doing so.

Oh, I'm sure the Progressives have all kinds of personal reasons to impeach and convict Trump for whatever reason. The Progressives have made that very clear to me. Yes, I'd say the PROGRESSIVES have made that very clear to me and damn near half the nation too. You may not know this or understand this, I know the difference between the Progressive and the Democrat. I also know that there is a substantial difference between the Progressives and the Democrats as far as voters go as well. I even know what the differences are between them. The question I have for you, are the Democrats themselves willing to financially suffer/sacrifice and accept major concessions/cuts or enter harms way and possibly die for the Progressives or in order to keep the Progressives in power. Right now, the Progressives are center stage for all to judge. Lets see, we experienced a partial government shutdown that lasted for almost a month caused by a rift between the President of the United State and the top ranking Progressive in office today. Dude, that was relatively minor and a little glimpse of what it's going to be like whens there's sixty some million actively involved to bring down an oppressive Progressive government that obviously wants control of everything and redistribute our dollars among themselves. I'd say the number of Americans judging them is about the same or greater than the number of people judging Trump now. Why? Nothing that's important that matters to most seems to be getting done/adequately addressed. Right now, half the country hates the Progressives and could care less about what happens to them and those who support them. A percentage of the country can't stand them either but view them as necessary to keep their higher paying jobs and their government entitlements. A larger percentage hates them just as much as half the country but haven't quite figured out that they're now directly related to them politically regardless of what they believe and know to be the obvious differences that clearly separates them or figured out that they're in charge whether they like it or not at this point and that's pretty much the way it's going to be from now on. Knowing this, I hope they're able to accept the bulk of their tax dollars going to fund Progressives and Progressive programs and Progressive groups and financial interests related to Progressives with much less going towards law enforcement

Now, I don't really care what goes in Progressive cities. I don't care if their PUBLIC parks have TRANSIENTS living in tents. I don't care if their citizens have to look down before they step to avoid stepping in poop. I don't care if there aren't enough cops to go around. I don't care if their public officials/elected officials where expensive clothes, own expensive cars and live in expensive homes in upper class neighborhoods. I don't care if they prefer to have their children educated in private schools either. I don't care if their crooks or incompetent or simply don't care about anyone other than themselves or their interests. I don't care if the obvious concerns of their citizens are ignored or not viewed as being more important than their own concerns. I don't care if nothing gets fixed, water quality sucks, water ways smell like outhouses, homelessness and unemployment become more and more common. I live in a mid western suburban area that's still largely reddish. A suburban area/community with taxpayers that won't tolerate transients living in their parks. I live in a mid western that's more reddish than blue despite being viewed as a long time Democratic state. I dunno, As I've mentioned, I'm very familiar with the Progressives. I should be familiar them, I've been studying them, learning about them for years and communicating directly with them in person for years. I'm also very familiar with those that I often refer as the Americans. I should be familiar them, I've been learning from them and learning about them for years and I've been actively involved with them with doing just everything for my entire life.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-04-2019, 08:10 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-03-2019, 03:50 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(10-03-2019, 02:00 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-02-2019, 11:55 PM)taramarie Wrote: LOL!!! One of my childhood memories was "I did not have sex with that woman." Which he did. Now who is lying here! Good grief how can someone say that wasn't a lie? Classic xer is right here and you are lying for Bill.

Agreed: sex isn't just intercourse, and Bill certainly had sex.  The only real difference between the Clinton affair and Trump's actions (too many to list) is personal versus public crimes.  Trump is involving the nation in his crap.

I consider grabbing women by their "kitty-cats" a form of sexuality... and criminal if unwelcome. 

Bill Clinton's sex looks far more consensual, and it should have never been grist for impeachment.

Yes, the Lewinsky affair (pun intended) was consensual, though others like Anita Broderick may have been anything but.  Bill was and probably still is a randy guy, and not the best example of Presidential stewardship.  Then again, Dwight Eisenhower had a long-term affair with an aide that was kept solidly under wraps while he and Mamie were alive, and let's not forget JFK.

Trump, on the other hand, has used the US government as an ATM for his crappy businesses.  He has no trouble trading on the integrity of the nation to make that happen; it's all about him.  So yes, he's vastly worse … especially considering his crotch grabbing and sleeping around while his wife was pregnant.  Trump is slime, top to bottom.

Personally, I didn't really care about Clinton, his affair with Monica or the hardship it may have caused for his greedy self serving wife either. Also, I wasn't surprised that he lied or fudged the truth while under oath either. I mean, he was slick Willy for Christ's sake and slick Willy as we know was used to doing shit and used to getting away with shit. Dude, Clinton was a scum bag at the core. His wife was a scum bag at the core too. Anthony Wiener was another scum bag at the core. I'll take a superficial slime as you say over a scum bag at the core any day. Just so you know, Obama was a superficial slime as well. I guess you and every other clueless blue recruiter better come to grips with the fact that the reds ain't as dumb you think or as you've been taught or as you hoped or as you believe and the reds themselves are more capable of defeating/ destroying you than any group of Republicans in Washington DC. The 60 some million who voted for Trump in 2016 are the Americans that you don't ever want to piss off or alienate because that group has the balls and the power to bring the pukes in Washington and the pukes in the pukes cities to their knees and eliminate them without touching them. Dude, as long as the Progressives appear to be isolated and mostly contained as far as their power, you can expect see more Democrats in office like in 2018.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-02-2019, 12:58 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-30-2019, 08:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: It keeps getting worse:

Ipsos/Reuters, Sep. 26-30, 2234 adults including 1917 RV (prior poll Sep. 23-24)

Adults:

Approve 39 (-3)
Disapprove 56 (+2)

Strongly approve 21 (nc)
Strongly disapprove 45 (+5)

Trump should be impeached: 

Yes 45 (+8)
No 41 (-4)

An elected official who uses the power of their office to attack political rivals should be removed:

Agree 63 (strongly 38)
Disagree 22 (strongly 7)

An elected official who uses a foreign government to attack a political rival should be removed:

Agree 66 (strongly 44)
Disagree 18 (strongly 6)


RV:

Approve 40 (-5)
Disapprove 56 (+2)

Strongly approve 23 (nc)
Strongly disapprove 45 (+3)

Trump should be impeached: 

Yes 45 (+6)
No 43 (-4)

An elected official who uses the power of their office to attack political rivals should be removed:

Agree 65 (strongly 40)
Disagree 23 (strongly 8 )

An elected official who uses a foreign government to attack a political rival should be removed:

Agree 69 (strongly 46)
Disagree 19 (strongly 6)

It is funny how a strong majority agrees that an elected official who uses his power to attack his political rivals should be removed from office, and yet Trump who has clearly done so only agrees by a few points that he should be impeached. It shows his power over his base of prejudiced and ignorant voters.

If a president is allowed to use his powers to attack his political opponents, and asks foreign governments to help him in this attack, then clearly we are no longer a democratic republic, and we have installed a dictator in office. We are scarcely better than North Korea or Saudi Arabia then. Trump's followers are just like the crowds celebrating 70 years of communist rule in China yesterday, while real people rise up for democracy against them in Hong Kong. Trump is Xi Jin Ping, the Republicans are his goose-stepping flag-waving followers, and the Democrats are the people of Hong Kong rising up for freedom.

I think it's funny how the liberal mind tends to work. Dude, all you and others have ever done over the years is either work or assist others with the task of trying to control other peoples minds or manipulate the way people think. I think you've been doing it so much for so long that it's having a negative impact on your ability to reason and your ability to respond/ speak to those who have the ability to reason. Well, I've got the mind that you and others combined aren't able to manipulate and control. In others words, I have the mind that can over power yours and others combined and scare the crap out of others. I look at the information and what you claim to be true and chuckle. Once again, I suggest that you figure out a way to step up your logic/intelligence or game when we're back in town. I'm sorry but the bulk of the Republican folks are most likely above you in intelligence level. I know that you guys teach that we are as dumb as this and that and whatever else you get away with teaching clueless blue recruits and supporters/followers about us. Based on what I've read and what I've seen over the years, the only difference between American Progressives and the Chinese Progressives trying to take control over Honk Kong today is the Chinese Progressives have been the ones in power for over fifty years and t have a military in place that is capable of doing it for them as long as we don't get actively involved politically, don't continue the trade war that's bleeding them economically, don't begin doing the kind of covert operations like we did during the Soviet incursion into Afghanistan that eventually toppled them and significantly cut them down in size like we did with the old Soviet Union.

[pbrower2a]

(10-05-2019, 05:53 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-02-2019, 12:58 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-30-2019, 08:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: It keeps getting worse:

Ipsos/Reuters, Sep. 26-30, 2234 adults including 1917 RV (prior poll Sep. 23-24)

Adults:

Approve 39 (-3)
Disapprove 56 (+2)

Strongly approve 21 (nc)
Strongly disapprove 45 (+5)

Trump should be impeached: 

Yes 45 (+8)
No 41 (-4)

An elected official who uses the power of their office to attack political rivals should be removed:

Agree 63 (strongly 38)
Disagree 22 (strongly 7)

An elected official who uses a foreign government to attack a political rival should be removed:

Agree 66 (strongly 44)
Disagree 18 (strongly 6)


RV:

Approve 40 (-5)
Disapprove 56 (+2)

Strongly approve 23 (nc)
Strongly disapprove 45 (+3)

Trump should be impeached: 

Yes 45 (+6)
No 43 (-4)

An elected official who uses the power of their office to attack political rivals should be removed:

Agree 65 (strongly 40)
Disagree 23 (strongly 8 )

An elected official who uses a foreign government to attack a political rival should be removed:

Agree 69 (strongly 46)
Disagree 19 (strongly 6)

It is funny how a strong majority agrees that an elected official who uses his power to attack his political rivals should be removed from office, and yet Trump who has clearly done so only agrees by a few points that he should be impeached. It shows his power over his base of prejudiced and ignorant voters.

If a president is allowed to use his powers to attack his political opponents, and asks foreign governments to help him in this attack, then clearly we are no longer a democratic republic, and we have installed a dictator in office. We are scarcely better than North Korea or Saudi Arabia then. Trump's followers are just like the crowds celebrating 70 years of communist rule in China yesterday, while real people rise up for democracy against them in Hong Kong. Trump is Xi Jin Ping, the Republicans are his goose-stepping flag-waving followers, and the Democrats are the people of Hong Kong rising up for freedom.

I think its funny how the liberal mind works. All you have ever done over the years is either work or assist with controlling peoples minds.  Well, I've got one that you don't have the ability to control. I look at the information and what you claim and laugh. Once again, I suggest that you figure out a way to step up your logic/intelligence when we're back in town. I'm sorry but the bulk of the Republican folks above your intelligence level. I know that you guys teach that we are this and that and whatever else you get away with teaching recruits and supporters/followers about us. Based on what I've read and what I've seen over the years, the only difference between your folks and the folks trying to take control over Honk Kong is that they've been in power for fifty years and have a military that is capable of doing it as long as we don't get involved, bleed them economically and topple them like we did with the Soviet Union.

Liberals or not, most of us prefer using our minds instead of doing raw labor. Your skilled labor is as much mind-work as body-work, and I am not going to deride such. We all recognize that we need laborers to milk cows, pick fruits, herd livestock... there is no techno-fix capable of sparing us from hunger. Do you need shelter or infrastructure? That will take construction laborers in large numbers.  

Speaking of me...

Unless you are MENSA material, don't challenge me to an IQ test. On the other hand, I have no desire to challenge you on a test of skill at doing installation, maintenance, or repair of HVAC units.  Likewise, I have Asperger's...and a rigid gate and poor facial recognition (which creates some social embarrassments).  

I have big trouble with President Trump for his morals. I have known of brilliant people (extreme example: Joseph Goebbels) who are pure evil, and those people are all the more inexcusable.  But back to Trump -- he has shown a large number of moral lapses throughout his life, including grabbing women by ... you know. Without a female's consent such is "criminal sexual conduct" in Michigan... In New York State?

https://abovethelaw.com/2016/11/when-doe...l-a-crime/

(that also refers to a vagina and mentions Trump's behavior as a misdemeanor)

 https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/cr...attery.htm


The attempt to blackmail the President of a country particularly vulnerable to aggression by a large power is a crime. It looks like an impeachable offense. It is a matter of national security, and the non-partisan CIA sees to consider it an impeachable offense. Imagine that I went to the President of the Republic of China (Taiwan) and threatened that if I did not get a cash bribe I would give defense secrets to the People's Republic of China that might make the Taiwan indefensible. First, I would probably be arrested by Taiwan's authorities and sent to prison if convicted of the crime. If I got away after the transfer of funds to a secret bank account I would be subject to arrest by the United States practically anywhere that I went. 

Democrats who have recently seen impeachment of the President as premature and ineffective and thus unwise now recognize the necessity of impeachment. Even if it does not result in the removal of the President it will expose him for what he is and his supporters for the unprincipled myrmidons that they are. A Republican Senator can vote to remove someone who has done an act inconsistent with the limited powers of the President when the time arises or risk losing a Senate seat in the next election. 

This Presidency has no precedent for corruption and abuse of power.  If our side of the spectrum had a President doing something like this we would be ready to impeach and convict. 

We liberals believe in the rule of law, human rights, fair and free elections, a competitive political process, and Constitutional checks and balances. Such is morality. A President who violates those values is toying with despotism or dictatorship.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-05-2019, 06:30 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Liberals or not, most of us prefer using our minds instead of doing raw labor. Your skilled labor is as much mind-work as body-work, and I am not going to deride such. We all recognize that we need laborers to milk cows, pick fruits, herd livestock... there is no techno-fix capable of sparing us from hunger. Do you need shelter or infrastructure? That will take construction laborers in large numbers.  

Speaking of me...

Unless you are MENSA material, don't challenge me to an IQ test. On the other hand, I have no desire to challenge you on a test of skill at doing installation, maintenance, or repair of HVAC units.  Likewise, I have Asperger's...and a rigid gate and poor facial recognition (which creates some social embarrassments).  

I have big trouble with President Trump for his morals. I have known of brilliant people (extreme example: Joseph Goebbels) who are pure evil, and those people are all the more inexcusable.  But back to Trump -- he has shown a large number of moral lapses throughout his life, including grabbing women by ... you know. Without a female's consent such is "criminal sexual conduct" in Michigan... In New York State?

https://abovethelaw.com/2016/11/when-doe...l-a-crime/

(that also refers to a vagina and mentions Trump's behavior as a misdemeanor)

 https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/cr...attery.htm


The attempt to blackmail the President of a country particularly vulnerable to aggression by a large power is a crime. It looks like an impeachable offense. It is a matter of national security, and the non-partisan CIA sees to consider it an impeachable offense. Imagine that I went to the President of the Republic of China (Taiwan) and threatened that if I did not get a cash bribe I would give defense secrets to the People's Republic of China that might make the Taiwan indefensible. First, I would probably be arrested by Taiwan's authorities and sent to prison if convicted of the crime. If I got away after the transfer of funds to a secret bank account I would be subject to arrest by the United States practically anywhere that I went. 

Democrats who have recently seen impeachment of the President as premature and ineffective and thus unwise now recognize the necessity of impeachment. Even if it does not result in the removal of the President it will expose him for what he is and his supporters for the unprincipled myrmidons that they are. A Republican Senator can vote to remove someone who has done an act inconsistent with the limited powers of the President when the time arises or risk losing a Senate seat in the next election. 

This Presidency has no precedent for corruption and abuse of power.  If our side of the spectrum had a President doing something like this we would be ready to impeach and convict. 

We liberals believe in the rule of law, human rights, fair and free elections, a competitive political process, and Constitutional checks and balances. Such is morality. A President who violates those values is toying with despotism or dictatorship.

Funny, I got the impression that Democrats are able to break laws and continue their Presidential campaigns with losing Democratic support. Prior to that, I got the impression that Democrat could have a sexual fling with an intern in the White House of all places and then lie about it while under oath and be able to remain in office and even be defended and excused for his behavior by his Democratic supporters several years later as well.

I'd say that most liberals aren't liberal today. The few that are more liberal are pretty meaning less/irrelevant at this point. How do liberals miss the obvious when it's right in front of the face and not see/make the connection as it relates to them? The only obligation we have to those on your side of the spectrum is to try to educate, help those who are capable of seeing beyond themselves and warn in advance of what is yet to come. I have to say, the liberals are some of the more interesting (more challenging) and most confusing/deceiving/manipulative people that I've ever met. As far as I'm concerned, I have already fulfilled my obligation.

[pbrower2a]

(10-06-2019, 11:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Funny, I got the impression that Democrats are able to break laws and continue their Presidential campaigns with full Democratic support. Prior to that, I  had the impression that Democrat could have a sexual fling with an intern in the White House of all places and lie about it while under oath and be able to remain in office and even be defended and offering excuses for him by Democratic supporters several years later as well. How do liberals miss what's clearly going on right in front of the face and their inability to make a connection? I have to say, the liberals are some of the more interesting (more challenging) and most confusing people that I've ever met.

America has become more repressive of workplace sexuality. Lawsuits and (with Jeffrey Weinstein and Bill Cosby) criminal cases demonstrate that most employers want the workplace to not become a safe haven for asking for sexual favors or even dating. America has become much more repressive of sexuality than it was in the 1990's except on homosexuality. 

I cannot tell whether the President's assertion that he grabbed women by their "kitty-cats" is literal or figurative, but his sexual behavior is infamous for other things, like going into female changing rooms. His sexuality seems to have developed in a world perfectly fitting him, the genteel porn of Playboy Magazine that offers a world of sex and luxury with highly-desirable females. Most men see that as fantasy, but Trump could live that as reality. Few of us can. 

We Democrats can abandon egregious failures of moral values as elected officials. Dan Rostenkowski, Kwame Crookpatrick, Rod Blagojevich, William Jefferson, Al Franken? We insist upon integrity in public office, and we see a viable alternative to a crooked liberal Democrat. OK, Mitt Romney could see through Donald Trump, but he was a rarity among Republicans who can't understand why liberal Democrats don't click their heels and support Donald Trump. If we don't support our moral failures no matter what, why should you right-wingers expect us to support the moral failures that your side offers?

People who sell out national security for personal gain or sexual favors have received very long prison terms. Trump seems to have tried to sell out a shaky ally (Ukraine), which has been a victim of Russian efforts to strip it of territory before turning it into a puppet state if it did not get dirt on family members of one of the President's arch-rivals. John Walker (deceased), Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen? Trump seems to be in this league now. 

It is you who shows hypocrisy. The CIA whistle-blower went to the only people (the Democrats in charge of the House majority) who have means of sanctioning this President. Congress can impeach, and it is now safe to say that Democrats who have questioned the efficacy and likelihood of success of impeaching the President now find themselves with no excuse for not impeaching him.  If impeachment does not bring down this President, then the next Presidential election will -- and it will also take down many politicians who support him despite commission of an act of gross treachery.  

Donald Trump has the moral pathology of believing that rules are for fools, but not for him.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-06-2019, 11:47 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(10-06-2019, 11:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Funny, I got the impression that Democrats are able to break laws and continue their Presidential campaigns with full Democratic support. Prior to that, I  had the impression that Democrat could have a sexual fling with an intern in the White House of all places and lie about it while under oath and be able to remain in office and even be defended and offering excuses for him by Democratic supporters several years later as well. How do liberals miss what's clearly going on right in front of the face and their inability to make a connection? I have to say, the liberals are some of the more interesting (more challenging) and most confusing people that I've ever met.

America has become more repressive of workplace sexuality. Lawsuits and (with Jeffrey Weinstein and Bill Cosby) criminal cases demonstrate that most employers want the workplace to not become a safe haven for asking for sexual favors or even dating. America has become much more repressive of sexuality than it was in the 1990's except on homosexuality. 

I cannot tell whether the President's assertion that he grabbed women by their "kitty-cats" is literal or figurative, but his sexual behavior is infamous for other things, like going into female changing rooms. His sexuality seems to have developed in a world perfectly fitting him, the genteel porn of Playboy Magazine that offers a world of sex and luxury with highly-desirable females. Most men see that as fantasy, but Trump could live that as reality. Few of us can. 

We Democrats can abandon egregious failures of moral values as elected officials. Dan Rostenkowski, Kwame Crookpatrick, Rod Blagojevich, William Jefferson, Al Franken? We insist upon integrity in public office, and we see a viable alternative to a crooked liberal Democrat. OK, Mitt Romney could see through Donald Trump, but he was a rarity among Republicans who can't understand why liberal Democrats don't click their heels and support Donald Trump. If we don't support our moral failures no matter what, why should you right-wingers expect us to support the moral failures that your side offers?

People who sell out national security for personal gain or sexual favors have received very long prison terms. Trump seems to have tried to sell out a shaky ally (Ukraine), which has been a victim of Russian efforts to strip it of territory before turning it into a puppet state if it did not get dirt on family members of one of the President's arch-rivals. John Walker (deceased), Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen? Trump seems to be in this league now. 

It is you who shows hypocrisy. The CIA whistle-blower went to the only people (the Democrats in charge of the House majority) who have means of sanctioning this President. Congress can impeach, and it is now safe to say that Democrats who have questioned the efficacy and likelihood of success of impeaching the President now find themselves with no excuse for not impeaching him.  If impeachment does not bring down this President, then the next Presidential election will -- and it will also take down many politicians who support him despite commission of an act of gross treachery.  

Donald Trump has the moral pathology of believing that rules are for fools, but not for him.

I assume that you've never had a woman come on to you or offer you obvious signs that she's sexually interested in you or she want's to get laid or she's open to having you grad or rub her crotch. I can relate to what Trump was talking about in the tape. I've had women make sexual advances towards me. I've had them flaunt their stuff in front of me. I've had them give me a crotch shot or create an opportunity so that I could get a very good look at them fully naked or partially naked or scantly dressed and so forth. I went through all kinds of training on what to do, what not to do and how to avoid sexual encounters/sexual involvement with women including an understanding all the negatives and legal consequences associated with sexual advances or having sex or having an affair with a female customer, coworker or subordinate. I'd say my age group was the first wave to enter the workforce post civil rights era where employee education was pretty common.

I'm not making an excuse for Trump's mistakes but he's spent his entire adult life in big business, running a big business, negotiating with big business's, competing with big business's being used to being the one who is in charge of calling all the shots. The private sector doesn't have rules when it comes to operating business and eliminating competition. As far as the floundering/bunging/foolish competition named Joe Biden, all Biden needed a nail in his political coffin. I'm sure the power hungry greedy liberal bitches would love to have a nail and would even use the nail IF they really want to be the President of the United States. Isn't there a federal law against claiming to be a native American when you're not? Another example of what a Democrat can do and get away with and still remain in office and run for President. I don't know, maybe Trump is tired of being President and tired of dealing with a bunch of clueless wack jobs and scum bag politicians that mindless fools and emotional twits seem to love and support.

[David Horn]

(10-05-2019, 12:02 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personally, I didn't really care about Clinton, his affair with Monica or the hardship it may have caused for his greedy self serving wife either. Also, I wasn't surprised that he lied or fudged the truth while under oath either. I mean, he was slick Willy for Christ's sake and slick Willy as we know was used to doing shit and used to getting away with shit. Dude, Clinton was a scum bag at the core. His wife was a scum bag at the core too. Anthony Wiener was another scum bag at the core. I'll take a superficial slime as you say over a scum bag at the core any day. Just so you know, Obama was a superficial slime as well. I guess you and every other clueless blue recruiter better come to grips with the fact that the reds ain't as dumb you think or as you've been taught or as you hoped or as you believe and the reds themselves are more capable of defeating/ destroying you than any group of Republicans in Washington DC. The 60 some million who voted for Trump in 2016 are the Americans that you don't ever want to piss off or alienate because that group has the balls and the power to bring the pukes in Washington and the pukes in the pukes cities to their knees and eliminate them without touching them. Dude, as long as the Progressives appear to be isolated and mostly contained as far as their power, you can expect see more Democrats in office like in 2018.

Assuming I understand your point here, you're arguing that Obama was slimy and Trump is slimy, but both Clintons are total scumbags. Well, I'm no Clintonite, so I'm not going to defend them, but a quick note about Obama: there were no scandals during his entire 8 years in office. I take offense with that one. I take greater offense at the argument that Mafia Don is on similar footing. This guy is single handedly destroying the effectiveness of the entire nation, ordering torture for people he doesn't like and throwing allies in arms under the bus. A Democrat doing even half of what he's done would be labeled a traitor by every Republican in the country.

So you seem to be saying that he can do no wrong, even when he commits felonies, because he's your guy. H-m-m-m. You might be well advised to take a look in the mirror and decide just how low you wish to go with this scumbag.

[Eric the Green]

(10-06-2019, 11:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-05-2019, 06:30 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Liberals or not, most of us prefer using our minds instead of doing raw labor. Your skilled labor is as much mind-work as body-work, and I am not going to deride such. We all recognize that we need laborers to milk cows, pick fruits, herd livestock... there is no techno-fix capable of sparing us from hunger. Do you need shelter or infrastructure? That will take construction laborers in large numbers.  

Speaking of me...

Unless you are MENSA material, don't challenge me to an IQ test. On the other hand, I have no desire to challenge you on a test of skill at doing installation, maintenance, or repair of HVAC units.  Likewise, I have Asperger's...and a rigid gate and poor facial recognition (which creates some social embarrassments).  

I have big trouble with President Trump for his morals. I have known of brilliant people (extreme example: Joseph Goebbels) who are pure evil, and those people are all the more inexcusable.  But back to Trump -- he has shown a large number of moral lapses throughout his life, including grabbing women by ... you know. Without a female's consent such is "criminal sexual conduct" in Michigan... In New York State?

https://abovethelaw.com/2016/11/when-doe...l-a-crime/

(that also refers to a vagina and mentions Trump's behavior as a misdemeanor)

 https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/cr...attery.htm


The attempt to blackmail the President of a country particularly vulnerable to aggression by a large power is a crime. It looks like an impeachable offense. It is a matter of national security, and the non-partisan CIA sees to consider it an impeachable offense. Imagine that I went to the President of the Republic of China (Taiwan) and threatened that if I did not get a cash bribe I would give defense secrets to the People's Republic of China that might make the Taiwan indefensible. First, I would probably be arrested by Taiwan's authorities and sent to prison if convicted of the crime. If I got away after the transfer of funds to a secret bank account I would be subject to arrest by the United States practically anywhere that I went. 

Democrats who have recently seen impeachment of the President as premature and ineffective and thus unwise now recognize the necessity of impeachment. Even if it does not result in the removal of the President it will expose him for what he is and his supporters for the unprincipled myrmidons that they are. A Republican Senator can vote to remove someone who has done an act inconsistent with the limited powers of the President when the time arises or risk losing a Senate seat in the next election. 

This Presidency has no precedent for corruption and abuse of power.  If our side of the spectrum had a President doing something like this we would be ready to impeach and convict. 

We liberals believe in the rule of law, human rights, fair and free elections, a competitive political process, and Constitutional checks and balances. Such is morality. A President who violates those values is toying with despotism or dictatorship.

Funny, I got the impression that Democrats are able to break laws and continue their Presidential campaigns with losing Democratic support. Prior to that, I got the impression that Democrat could have a sexual fling with an intern in the White House of all places and then lie about it while under oath and be able to remain in office and even be defended and excused for his behavior by his Democratic supporters several years later as well.

I'd say that most liberals aren't liberal today. The few that are more liberal are pretty meaning less/irrelevant at this point. How do liberals miss the obvious when it's right in front of the face and not see/make the connection as it relates to them? The only obligation we have to those on your side of the spectrum is to try to educate, help those who are capable of seeing beyond themselves and warn in advance of what is yet to come. I have to say, the liberals are some of the more interesting (more challenging) and most confusing/deceiving/manipulative people that I've ever met. As far as I'm concerned, I have already fulfilled my obligation.

You tend to make these general statements and it's hard to know specifically what you refer to, especially since I don't see things the same way you do. I don't know about any Democrats who break laws and continue their presidential campaigns while losing support. I don't know who you refer to. Certainly not the Clintons. Hillary didn't break any laws and all the charges against her are false. I checked the whole email nonsense out carefully and there's nothing there. Bill's affair was his own business and should never have been investigated. It was a partisan trap. He believed that sex was intercourse, and that therefore he didn't have a sexual affair with that woman. To impeach Bill for that was not only stupid but was a ridiculous example of how you guys behave. I know Bill was slick, but if you guys don't have anything you can nail down against him you should have left him alone.

Trump is asking other governments to invent conspiracy theories in order to smear his political opponents. He uses the office for his own financial gain. He should be carted out of the oval office and taken to jail.

[pbrower2a]

(10-07-2019, 01:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-06-2019, 11:47 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Donald Trump has the moral pathology of believing that rules are for fools, but not for him.

I assume that you've never had a woman come on to you or offer you obvious signs that she's sexually interested in you or she want's to get laid or she's open to having you (grab) or rub her crotch. I can relate to what Trump was talking about in the tape. I've had women make sexual advances towards me. I've had them flaunt their stuff in front of me. I've had them give me a crotch shot or create an opportunity so that I could get a very good look at them fully naked or partially naked or scantly dressed and so forth. I went through all kinds of training on what to do, what not to do and how to avoid sexual encounters/sexual involvement with women including an understanding all the negatives and legal consequences associated with sexual advances or having sex or having an affair with a female customer, coworker or subordinate. I'd say my age group was the first wave to enter the workforce post civil rights era where employee education was pretty common.

 

I have Asperger's. I do very badly at understanding non-verbal signals except perhaps by dogs. I don't trust the seduction of sex for its own sake. I expect that she shows signs of shared interests, without which any relationship is nothing more than a one-night stand. I have never had a one-night stand. 

Don't get me wrong. I want a woman for much more than sex. Intimate companionship? Doing delightful things together? I am well aware that at certain age, almost all females look better without than with clothes. The problem is that females that age rarely have anything in common with me. I would bore them if I tried to talk about pop culture of the 1960's and 1970's. My taste in music is as old-fashioned as it could be...maybe it is the historical cycle that makes education strictly utilitarian (preparation for work as opposed to preparation for life in all its potential richness) that ensures that young adults generally lack the patience for long pieces of music whose structure and contrapuntal writing are both magnificent. I have a long list of things that I would like to do, such as listening to the Chicago Symphony live. I did knock off a bottle of what may be the best beer available (Pilsner Urquell, a Czech beer with a nutty taste that I have never experienced in another beer -- too bad I can't drink anymore.  It's not my liver; one drink is ordinarily enough for me, in part because I can't hold liquor as I did when I was in my twenties). I want to see Gettysburg and the MLK historical site. I want to see Sleeping Bear Dunes in northwestern lower Michigan. Thus alcoholic beverages are off the list.  I'd love to witness a rocket launch. That's before I discuss delights overseas. Vegas? Last place I want to be, if that tells you anything. 

I can probably do these things because I have few bad habits that cost a fortune. I have no desire to buy the newest technology and experience the "new car smell". 200 channels of cable TV? Fifty are enough.      

Quote:I'm not making an excuse for Trump's mistakes but he's spent his entire adult life in big business, running a big business, negotiating with big business's, competing with big business's  being used to being the one who is in charge of calling all the shots. The private sector doesn't have rules when it comes to operating business and eliminating competition. As far as the floundering/bunging/foolish  competition named Joe Biden, all Biden needed a nail in his political coffin. I'm sure the power hungry greedy liberal bitches would love to have  a nail and would even use the nail IF they really want to be the President of the United States. Isn't there a federal law against claiming to be a native American when you're not? Another example of what a Democrat can do and get away with and still remain  in office and run for President.    I don't know, maybe Trump is tired of being President and tired of dealing with a bunch of clueless wack jobs and scum bag politicians that mindless fools and emotional twits seem to love and support.

Trump has spent his life ripping of subcontractors, schmoozing with politicians for tax breaks and zoning variances, finding ways to sell off businesses that have troubles but potential for expanding a marketplace, creating fecal mass entertainment, and grabbing attention only to make a fool of himself. Heck, the late Lee Iacocca saved what many thought was a doomed automaker, which is a bigger achievement than anything that Trump has ever done -- and he brushed off suggestions that he be President of the United States. Because a non-socialist government operates few things on a profit-and-loss basis, a businessman is typically irrelevant to running the federal government. Surely as a conservative you do not want the government running most of the productive enterprise of America! 

At least Lee Iacocca was a superb businessman, which is more than I can say of Donald Trump! To be sure, we had a failed businessman who became President, Harry Truman, and he took that in stride. He was a better politician than a businessman, and he knew it. This is not to say that the efficiency of government operations is not to be sought -- it is. But for all his shallowness as a person, Donald Trump lacks something that most Presidents have displayed even if they have troubled administrations: integrity. 

It will be up to the American people to decide which politicians founder politically and which ones succeed. The polling that I have seen suggests that Donald Trump seems to be a mistake to many who voted for him, and he is not getting new voters for him. 

It is no crime to misrepresent one's ethnic origins. 



Rather hot, don't you think? She might have gotten away with it if she weren't so crazy and dishonest about other things. I am satisfied that she had no loyalty to the white race, as is common among people that I have met who have similar skin and hair. If anything, people who look much like that usually have even more legitimate complaints about what white people have done to them -- such as white relatives who reject them. 

This was deliberate, and it was not a crime. This said... millions of people have heard false and misleading stories about their ancestry, whether to hide something inconvenient (I do genealogy, and I have suspicion that some of my ancestors may have been black) or to maintain a story that gets better the more that the genetic contribution gets diluted into irrelevance. 


It might be more satisfying than figuring that eighth-cousins or so may have included some Nazi war criminals. I would rather have connections to Holocaust victims than to Holocaust perpetrators. Indeed if I had such a choice, I would rather be a Jew than a Nazi because as a Jew I could maintain my culture and my moral values. 

Should I ever take one of those genetic tests and I find that I have some sub-Saharan ancestry in recent times I will deal with it with the maturity that I show about trivial things. Heck, if (in an unlikely scenario) I needed infusions of melanin to free me from Asperger's I would do it. 

And let's go back to an issue of race. You do realize that by almost every measure Barack Obama was an above-average President, do you not? Contrast the freedom from chaos and corruption in his Presidency, the perverse behavior, and the rigorous adherence to Constitutional norms to what we see in Trump. We have a President offending the core sensibilities of the CIA,  the Armed Services, and federal law enforcement, groups usually seen on the Right in political orientation. I am old enough to remember a leader who had such problems in his own country. His name was Salvador Allende.

Let's recognize the realities of Donald Trump:

1. He lacks the preparation to be President.
2. He lacks the temperament to be President.
3. He lacks the integrity to be President.
4. He prefers yes-men to wise advisers.
5. He has no respect for the American political heritage.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-07-2019, 02:41 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: You tend to make these general statements and it's hard to know specifically what you refer to, especially since I don't see things the same way you do. I don't know about any Democrats who break laws and continue their presidential campaigns while losing support. I don't know who you refer to. Certainly not the Clintons. Hillary didn't break any calls and all the charges against her are false. I checked the whole email nonsense out carefully and there's nothing there. Bill's affair was his own business and should never have been investigated. It was a partisan trap. He believed that sex was intercourse, and that therefore he didn't have a sexual affair with that woman. To impeach Bill for that was not only stupid but was a ridiculous example of how you guys behave. I know Bill was slick, but if you guys don't have anything you can nail down against him you should have left him alone.

Trump is asking other governments to invent conspiracy theories in order to smear his political opponents. He uses the office for his own financial gain. He should be carted out of the oval office and taken to jail.

How did you come up with seeing general statements when you were looking at more specific information with details? Dude, I don't care if you end up dead on some street, starving or learning to make due living in a tent on tent space because you refuse to see and acknowledge truth relating to fellow Democrats and Democratic run areas. I got news for you, Jesus died a couple thousand years ago and we haven't seen a human exactly like him ever since.

Lets see, Bill lied under oath (other people have gone to prison or looking at prison time for doing it today) and then lied to us about having a sexual relationship/sexual fling with an intern that occurred in the Oval Office inside the White House of all places. Hilary must have forgotten there was a federal law (American Law) that prohibited her from using private servers/ computers in their homes before she had one installed in her and Bills home for personal and work related use while she was Secretary of State and must not have been aware of the federal law that prohibits tampering and destroying evidence pertaining a criminal investigation and didn't realize she did twice by having the hard drives white washed and ordering her team to destroy their hand held devices before the FBI seized them. I'm pretty sure there was a federal law against lying on official applications pertaining to federal grants for special programs about being an American Indian when actually being a caucasian woman with higher cheek bones as well. Oh, then there's Anthony Wiener, the pervert who sent pictures of his junk to his young adolescent girlfriend. The dude had a history of being suspected of doing it too.

[Eric the Green]

(10-07-2019, 10:41 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-07-2019, 02:41 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: You tend to make these general statements and it's hard to know specifically what you refer to, especially since I don't see things the same way you do. I don't know about any Democrats who break laws and continue their presidential campaigns while losing support. I don't know who you refer to. Certainly not the Clintons. Hillary didn't break any calls and all the charges against her are false. I checked the whole email nonsense out carefully and there's nothing there. Bill's affair was his own business and should never have been investigated. It was a partisan trap. He believed that sex was intercourse, and that therefore he didn't have a sexual affair with that woman. To impeach Bill for that was not only stupid but was a ridiculous example of how you guys behave. I know Bill was slick, but if you guys don't have anything you can nail down against him you should have left him alone.

Trump is asking other governments to invent conspiracy theories in order to smear his political opponents. He uses the office for his own financial gain. He should be carted out of the oval office and taken to jail.

How did you come up with seeing general statements when you were looking at more specific information with details? Dude, I don't care if you end up dead on some street, starving or learning to make due living in a tent on tent space because you refuse to see and acknowledge truth relating to fellow Democrats and Democratic run areas. I got news for you, Jesus died a couple thousand years ago and we haven't seen a human  exactly like him ever since.  

Lets see, Bill lied under oath (other people have gone to prison or looking at prison time for doing it today) and then lied to us about having a sexual relationship/sexual fling with an intern that occurred in the Oval Office inside the White House of all places. Hilary must have forgotten there was a federal law (American Law) that prohibited her from using  private servers/ computers in their homes before she had one installed in her and Bills home for personal and work related use while she was Secretary of State and must not have been aware of  the federal  law that prohibits tampering and destroying  evidence pertaining a criminal investigation and didn't realize she did twice by having the hard drives white washed and  ordering her team to destroy their hand held devices before the FBI seized them. I'm pretty sure there was a federal law against lying on official applications pertaining to federal grants for special programs about being an American Indian when actually being a caucasian woman with higher cheek bones as well. Oh, then there's Anthony Wiener, the pervert who sent pictures of his junk to his young adolescent girlfriend. The dude had a history of being suspected of doing it too.

Jesus, wow talk about a non-sequitur. How did he get into this? Yeah, he was quite a dude, but you right-wingers know nothing about him. I see nothing specific here about your charges against Democrats. You've got nothing on them.

As for Bill, as far as I know his "lied under oath" and "then" "lied about having a sexual fling with an intern" are the same lie, and it wasn't a lie; as explained, Bill thought of sex as intercourse, so he denied having sex with that woman, and said under oath that it depends how you define it. Perfectly understandable, and none of anyone's bid'ness. All the secretaries of state used personal email servers, and Mrs. Clinton broke no law in doing it, and did not reveal any state secrets. She only took off irrelevant emails. I guess you refer to Elizabeth Warren here, but I know nothing about that, and I follow politics. You must have made it up. Wiener, he's not running for anything anymore, and he's nothing but a goofy nutcase. Perverted I'm sure. You let Trump off the hook for hundreds of severe violations, but you bring up Bill for saying it depends on what the meaning of the word is, is. You guys are crazy, that's all there is to it. And you are taking the country and the world to ruin. Shame on you guys.

[pbrower2a]

(10-07-2019, 10:41 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-07-2019, 02:41 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: You tend to make these general statements and it's hard to know specifically what you refer to, especially since I don't see things the same way you do. I don't know about any Democrats who break laws and continue their presidential campaigns while losing support. I don't know who you refer to. Certainly not the Clintons. Hillary didn't break any calls and all the charges against her are false. I checked the whole email nonsense out carefully and there's nothing there. Bill's affair was his own business and should never have been investigated. It was a partisan trap. He believed that sex was intercourse, and that therefore he didn't have a sexual affair with that woman. To impeach Bill for that was not only stupid but was a ridiculous example of how you guys behave. I know Bill was slick, but if you guys don't have anything you can nail down against him you should have left him alone.

Trump is asking other governments to invent conspiracy theories in order to smear his political opponents. He uses the office for his own financial gain. He should be carted out of the oval office and taken to jail.

How did you come up with seeing general statements when you were looking at more specific information with details? Dude, I don't care if you end up  dead on some street, starving or learning to make due living in a tent on tent space because you refuse to see and acknowledge truth relating to fellow Democrats and Democratic run areas. I got news for you, Jesus died a couple thousand years ago and we haven't seen a human  exactly like him ever since.

 

Dude, the powers-that-be in the Republican Party are mirror-image Marxists, people who want capitalism to behave as the nightmare that Marx and his successors depict. They want the common man to suffer for the economic elite of tycoons, rural magnates, and executives who live like kings in the midst of mass fear and suffering. Their dream is one in which workers have forty-year lifespans and seventy-hour workweeks yet recognize that survival is a privilege to be earned but suffered. They would send children through economic realities to mines and factories if their parents died of commonplace industrial accidents or (even more likely) got worn down due to the incessant toil by age 35 and could no longer work. Try to impose that sort of world in America and you would see lots of red flags around -- the ones with hammers and sickles. 

Before you try to get Jesus into the argument -- I can imagine someone far more desirable than someone who can absolve us from sins, some of those monstrous. How about someone who delivers us completely from the desire to commit grave sins? Jesus came into the world, yet people professing to be Christians have involved themselves in grave injustices: the murderous Crusades, the medieval witch-hunts, the Inquisition, the Atlantic slave trade, and the annihilation of First Peoples. People brought up as Christians have become gangsters, fascists (some extremely militant in expressing their Christian affiliation), and Communists (among those, Lenin, Stalin, Ceausescu, Castro, and Kim il-Sung). Did Christianity improve humanity? Maybe not. Maybe people can be less in fear of eternal damnation if they face the noose if they repent before they are hanged, but it would be better if people did not murder, rape, or commit robberies. 

Cheap grace is a huge fault in Christianity and Islam. As someone with cultural ties to Germany, I love Bach and hate Hitler. I can say this of Germany: one thing would have solved all the most dangerous moral pathology of the German people between 1933 and 1945. Judaism, which offers no cheap grace. 

Quote:Lets see, Bill lied under oath (other people have gone to prison or looking at prison time for doing it today) and then lied to us about having a sexual relationship/sexual fling with an intern that occurred in the Oval Office inside the White House of all places. Hilary must have forgotten there was a federal law (American Law) that prohibited her from using  private servers/ computers in their homes before she had one installed in her and Bills home for personal and work related use while she was Secretary of State and must not have been aware of  the federal  law that prohibits tampering and destroying  evidence pertaining a criminal investigation and didn't realize she did twice by having the hard drives white washed   and  ordering  her team to destroy their hand held devices before the FBI seized them.  I'm pretty sure there was a federal law against lying on official applications pertaining to federal grants for special programs about being an American Indian when actually being a caucasian woman with higher cheek bones as well. Oh, then there's Anthony Wiener, the pervert who sent pictures of his junk to his young adolescent girlfriend. The dude had a history of being suspected of doing it too.

In practice, lying under oath applies to people for attempting to trick law enforcement and thus making a travesty of justice on a non-trivial matter. Consensual sex is a trivial matter, and America was much more tolerant of sex involving people in the workplace than is the case now. 

Washing a hard drive? The trick for someone involved in an illegal activity such as the creation and dissemination of child pornography is to destroy a hard drive, which is easy to do. Of course if one buys an inordinate number of hard drives and is suspect in the criminal activity, having a large number of transactions that purchase hard drives might draw suspicion  much like buying huge quantities of sinus medicine. So if you are in southeastern Missouri and buy sinus medicines in places such as Cairo, Illinois; Paragould or Blytheville, Arkansas; Wickliffe, Kentucky; and Dyersburg, Tennessee you might get on the federal meth-watch list and get a visit from the DEA at some point. Nothing says that suspicious behavior is exempt from legal scrutiny.

As for Elizabeth Warren -- I have said enough already. Being wrong about facts is not the same as deliberate lying. If anything, finding out that one is wrong and admitting such is about as strong an assertion of truth as one can do.

[David Horn]

(10-07-2019, 02:41 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump is asking other governments to invent conspiracy theories in order to smear his political opponents. He uses the office for his own financial gain. He should be carted out of the oval office and taken to jail.

True that! Trump is the first POTUS to totally ignore the responsibilities of the office, while exercising powers for his own gain -- many that are specious at best. If the GOP office holders who back him now continue until he finishes a second term, there won't be much 'America' to pass o to the next POTUS.

[David Horn]

(10-07-2019, 11:07 PM)taramarie Wrote: You know what is amazing here? That some people are gullible enough to believe a grown ass middle aged (at the time) man wouldn't know what the definition of sex is and I find it hard to believe he wasn't having actual sexual intercourse as well as oral. I smell a rat.

Bill is far from the issue.  Pointing at Bill to excuse Trump is the worst form of blame-shifting.  But sure, Bill had sex, and lying about it cost him his right to practice law.  Trump not only lies, but bribes and extorts.  So far: nothing.  Worse, Trump has no compunction about using even the most serious power the US has to cover his ass.  Scary!

[Classic-Xer]

(10-08-2019, 01:21 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-07-2019, 02:41 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump is asking other governments to invent conspiracy theories in order to smear his political opponents. He uses the office for his own financial gain. He should be carted out of the oval office and taken to jail.

True that!  Trump is the first POTUS to totally ignore the responsibilities of the office, while exercising powers for his own gain -- many that are specious at best.  If the GOP office holders who back him now continue until he finishes a second term, there won't be much 'America' to pass o to the next POTUS.

I think that your naive to believe that Trump is the first American President to use their power and influence to sway a foreign leader or a fellow politician to do something for them that's in their personal interest to have occur or American interest. In Trump's case, he may have attempted but he didn't succeed so no law was broken.

[pbrower2a]

(10-08-2019, 02:10 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-08-2019, 01:21 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-07-2019, 02:41 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump is asking other governments to invent conspiracy theories in order to smear his political opponents. He uses the office for his own financial gain. He should be carted out of the oval office and taken to jail.

True that!  Trump is the first POTUS to totally ignore the responsibilities of the office, while exercising powers for his own gain -- many that are specious at best.  If the GOP office holders who back him now continue until he finishes a second term, there won't be much 'America' to pass on to the next POTUS.

I think that your naive to believe that Trump is the first American President to use their power and influence to sway a foreign leader or a fellow politician  to do something for them that's in their personal interest to have occur or American interest. In Trump's case, he may have attempted but he didn't succeed so no law was broken.

FDR never asked Churchill to campaign with him. Both had more important matters at hand, and in 1944 that included finishing off three Evil Empires that had sought to finish us off. 

Personal interest -- as in some business deal to the benefit of the President for his profit or to rescue his assets? Unthinkable for 43 other Presidents (in this case I am not counting Grover Cleveland twice), and inexcusable now. The American interest? Sure -- as defined by some Congressional vote. So here are some weapons with which to fight fascists (whether Nazis or ISIS) or Commies... But the American interest is not that the President or his family get a low-interest loan, a business opportunity, or money into the campaign fund of himself or others.

Let me discuss Ukraine. First, Ukraine needs some military aid for standing up to an aggressive neighbor that has been  pinching off Ukrainian territory bit by bit and would love to turn the rest of the country into a satellite. Congress has so decided in votes, and it is not up to the President to rescind that money by making it contingent upon some smear of a rival's son. Second, democracy and the rule of law are shaky in Ukraine -- and Trump is attempting to get the new President of Ukraine to compromise both. 

Donald Trump has brought a level of corruption to the White House that many of us thought could happen only somewhere else. He is the real-life Berzelius Windrip of It Can't Happen Here. But he is also making another story all the more likely as a realization: Seven Days in May.  This President has offended the Intelligence services, federal law enforcement, and the Armed Forces. In many other countries that is the portent of a military coup.

[pbrower2a]

Another poll:

Some 55% of poll participants said Congress should take up the Ukraine matter, with 31% supporting the House impeachment inquiry that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi launched last month and an additional 24% saying enough evidence exists already for lawmakers to remove Mr. Trump from office.

By contrast, 39% said Congress shouldn’t hold an impeachment inquiry and should allow Mr. Trump to finish his term as president.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/majority-of...malertNEWS

[Classic-Xer]

(10-07-2019, 12:51 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-05-2019, 12:02 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personally, I didn't really care about Clinton, his affair with Monica or the hardship it may have caused for his greedy self serving wife either. Also, I wasn't surprised that he lied or fudged the truth while under oath either. I mean, he was slick Willy for Christ's sake and slick Willy as we know was used to doing shit and used to getting away with shit. Dude, Clinton was a scum bag at the core. His wife was a scum bag at the core too. Anthony Wiener was another scum bag at the core. I'll take a superficial slime as you say over a scum bag at the core any day. Just so you know, Obama was a superficial slime as well. I guess you and every other clueless blue recruiter better come to grips with the fact that the reds ain't as dumb you think or as you've been taught or as you hoped or as you believe and the reds themselves are more capable of defeating/ destroying you than any group of Republicans in Washington DC. The 60 some million who voted for Trump in 2016 are the Americans that you don't ever want to piss off or alienate because that group has the balls and the power to bring the pukes in Washington and the pukes in the pukes cities to their knees and eliminate them without touching them. Dude, as long as the Progressives appear to be isolated and mostly contained as far as their power, you can expect see more Democrats in office like in 2018.

Assuming I understand your point here, you're arguing that Obama was slimy and Trump is slimy, but both Clintons are total scumbags.  Well, I'm no Clintonite, so I'm not going to defend them, but a quick note about Obama: there were no scandals during his entire 8 years in office.  I take offense with that one.  I take greater offense at the argument that Mafia Don is on similar footing. This guy is single handedly destroying the effectiveness of the entire nation, ordering torture for people he doesn't like and throwing allies in arms under the bus.  A Democrat doing even half of what he's done would be labeled a traitor by every Republican in the country.

So you seem to be saying that he can do no wrong, even when he commits felonies, because he's your guy.  H-m-m-m.  You might be well advised to take a look in the mirror and decide just how low you wish to go with this scumbag.

I'd say it's the Progressives who are/ have been trying to destroy the effectiveness of the nation more than it's Trump at this point in my life. Dude, if Trump was more of a Progressive, you'd love the guy. I say that because he's the type of Progressive leader that you've been telling us you'd prefer and believe is needed for Progressives to prevail and change America. If the issue with Trump isn't viewed as being an issue with the working class voters who tend to vote Republican or those who exclusively vote for Trump/support Trump, the Republicans aren't going to support impeachment. You see the the thirty some percent that Trump has the support of right now is actually 75% of the entire Republican base. Me, I'm not a big fan of Trump or a working class voter but I am still a member of the entire Republican base. Basically, I'd be in the some what agree group that Eric lumped in with the strongly agree to form his view of there's a strong majority in favor of impeaching Trump.