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To impeach, or not to impeach
#61
(10-10-2019, 01:16 AM)taramarie Wrote:
(10-09-2019, 10:56 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(10-08-2019, 03:46 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(10-08-2019, 01:21 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(10-07-2019, 02:41 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump is asking other governments to invent conspiracy theories in order to smear his political opponents. He uses the office for his own financial gain. He should be carted out of the oval office and taken to jail.

True that!  Trump is the first POTUS to totally ignore the responsibilities of the office, while exercising powers for his own gain -- many that are specious at best.  If the GOP office holders who back him now continue until he finishes a second term, there won't be much 'America' to pass o to the next POTUS.

Questionable. Here, I have done a bit of reading. But I doubt you need to look so far for an example. But as an American, you should know more. The 5 most notorious presidents in US history

The Presidents on your list were all repugnant in their own way, but Trump is unique in using the office as a business opportunity.  Worse, he is totally amoral, and sees no issue with screwing everyone as long as he gains.  He's not quite shaping up as our Hitler -- not yet, anyway.  That may change if he feels threatened.
Yep sounds like him given he is a money hungry narcissist.

You are talking about many of America's entrepreneurs and corporate bureaucrats, and many of our entertainers and pro athletes. Our system fosters narcissism in its economic elites. The system breaks narcissism in people who must do either hard labor or must do servile work. Certain roles in life teach people that they are expendable in the grand scheme of things, or at least the economic reality that defines the most materialistic society on Earth.

America used to have a more egalitarian ethos, and flagrant narcissists usually did not develop. Maybe that was because more of the business owners were farmers for whom production was the objective and means of sustenance, shopkeepers who had to connect customers to their needs, small-scale bankers who connected entrepreneurs to savers' money, and small-scale manufacturers who had to make things that fit customers' needs. America is less capitalist today because it has far fewer entrepreneurs as a part of the populace but it is also far more plutocratic because those few are in charge of command-and-control systems.

OK, the most flagrant narcissist at one time was the stereotyped prima donna of the opera; then came the Hollywood star. Careers of such people typically went into a fall when the flamboyance overpowered the talent, and such people became more objects as much of contempt than as delight. There were lessons to learn from that -- don't get too big for your breeches, as the saying went. But thanks in part to the economic priorities that people like Ronald Reagan and both Bushes got us directed, we ended up with more concentration of industry and more flagrant  concentration of industry (monopolization and trusts are more profitable than small business, so such is a virtue and not a bane) and the debasement of any moral or cultural quality in education, and while the system created huge numbers of low-paying jobs as restaurant workers and store clerks the manufacturing jobs (remember well that the best route out of poverty for anyone not particularly bright or talented is the factory) faded away. So we got a more severe hierarchy, and people within the favored spots within the hierarchy could get away with more than they used to. I remember (when GI's were the bosses) that the typical GI executive was comparatively old, had been with the company from early adulthood (job-jumping was strongly held in disdain even if there was a pay raise as a career choice), and knew what went on in the mail-room, on the shop or (retail) sales floor, or in sales territories far away from headquarters because he (it was a male-chauvinist time) had been there in that company. Can you imagine someone as an executive in a company having gotten to the top of a bureaucratic organization in a bloated firm after having started as a laborer, clerk, or assembly-line worker? Above-all, the fifty-something executive had a fifty-something wife, and a house (his house was simply paid for) perhaps a little bigger than most. His car was a staid sedan, maybe a Buick instead of a prole Chevy or Ford. Absolutely never was the car a sportscar; by the time he could afford one he no longer needed or wanted one. Such executives could relate to the common man because he really was one. In contrast the typical executive comes from an MBA school... and the deficiencies are obvious, and the culturally-and morally-empty graduates that often come from such schools compensate in egregious consumerism that are theirs because they succeed at keeping others poor.

Donald Trump fits the pattern of the bad MBA. To be sure, we may not need a PhD in Russian literature to be a good leader, but I can assure you that Donald Trump seems less knowledgeable about science, philosophy, and high culture than did many factory workers fifty years ago. Nothing about him is genuine. He is a fake, a fraud, and a phony.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#62
(10-09-2019, 04:05 PM)taramarie Wrote: Look I identify more with the left wing in your country as it is more close to home so to say. It is more kiwi. But I also have felt the sting from your side also, some who have this mentality if you are not religiously with them, you are the enemy and if you are the enemy you are a racist bigoted (insert any other insult they can find which isn't actually true). When you start to make questions to find the entire truth as a whole you instantly get that and it makes it near damned impossible to have a conversation. So it is more like the culture is on fire and both are screaming at each other and making accusations that are untrue wanting someone to blame.  I am a lefty here, just from a different country and because I like to question things and find the real truth and not a blind follower I instantly get accusations from my own side, just from a different country! How absurd! Hope that its just a few lefties I have met that are just nuts and isn't the norm. Yes I have encountered some interesting right wingers also who are lets say....extreme also. Seemingly obsessed with guns and super religious and against certain people having the same freedoms they enjoy which I find endlessly entertaining because I thought they were against lack of freedom and govt intervention but I guess they mean for THEM not those "adam and steves."


If you tap into the mindstream of ideologues, this is what it looks like.  Yes, you probably have had blowback that is both unfair and quite likely a bit bizarre.  Let's call that the product of the <1% on the left, and a bigger swath on the right.  That doesn't make the <1% better, just less common.

taramarie Wrote:It kinda goes against that belief of having freedoms and lack of govt intervention which btw is very different from our right wingers in my country. Interesting contrast. The worst has been that they feel if anyone would take away their way of life they are willing to kill for it, but they are quite willing to remove others rights whether it be equal marriage rights, womens rights etc. By them I have been accused that I want their country to burn to the ground and that I want to take away all of their guns and that I am going to burn in hell because I am not religious. The first two, believe it or not right wingers but it actually isn't true, but now then again it doesn't help for me to explain why not now does it. So I wont even bother.


There are actually two distinct variants of "the right" in the US.  While they support each other politically, their beliefs are actually different, and diametrically opposed at times.  There is an excellent study of this, and you can find it at Hidden Tribes of America.  If you scroll down on the main page, you'll see the definitions of the tribes, and the fact that the left has one fringe, but the right has two.

taramarie Wrote:The third accusation almost would be laughable if it wasn't sad. It is abusive but also tells me they were abused into their own religion by their elders. In short, I have noticed both have their agendas and both do point out some very justified inconsistencies. However there is a lot of lies thrown around and I can just state from my own experience why I believe what I do due to what I have experienced and I hope that this isn't the norm over there. Both want as far as I can tell, govt to have the control to fulfil what suits them more it seems to me and both will make the other side an enemy to prevent conversation. 

No one is more a true believer than a convert.  The no-longer-religious are zealous in their non-beliefs, so yes, you'll get some weird stuff there too.

taramarie Wrote:Should be interesting how this shit storm turns out I will say. I just hope this sort of thing never happens in my country.

Somehow, it seems highly unlikely.  Yours was not created as a haven for every religious fringe group of the time, so it's not in your country's DNA.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#63
(10-09-2019, 11:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(10-09-2019, 01:01 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The Republican Party is responsible for the preservation of the Trump Presidency. It can save him through some perfunctory dismissal of articles of impeachment, but if it does so it may be on the way to a long time in the political wilderness, if not oblivion.

I think it may be oblivion, because there is only one person who has the charisma to be a Republican Obama or even a Republican Bill Clinton. That one person is his daughter Ivanka. But she is not even a Republican, and could go down the dumps with her daddy. And she will have to find a way to prove herself as a presidential public figure somehow. Absent that, there's no other potential candidate who can win the presidential election and thus keep the Republicans in the Senate and in the corporate boardrooms and elsewhere in control of the country.

That's not really true.  I can think of one Republican that still has a great reputation and might, in fact, run in 2020 if Mafia Don is impeached and thrown out of office: Nikki Haley.  She's smart, personable and has a pretty solid track record in South Carolina and the UN.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#64
(10-08-2019, 01:27 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(10-07-2019, 11:07 PM)taramarie Wrote: You know what is amazing here? That some people are gullible enough to believe a grown ass middle aged (at the time) man wouldn't know what the definition of sex is and I find it hard to believe he wasn't having actual sexual intercourse as well as oral. I smell a rat.

Bill is far from the issue.  Pointing at Bill to excuse Trump is the worst form of blame-shifting.  But sure, Bill had sex, and lying about it cost him his right to practice law.  Trump not only lies, but bribes and extorts.  So far: nothing.  Worse, Trump has no compunction about using even the most serious power the US has to cover his ass.  Scary!
I didn't use Bill as an excuse to shift blame away from Trump. I used Bill and what Bill obviously did while President in order to actually be impeached. Bill basically lied under oath which is a criminal offense as well as an impeachable offense. As I said, it is pretty common for American presidents to use their power and influence to sway foreign leaders for the sake of their own interests or national interests. I assume that a full scale investigation into that sort of thing or worse would result in many Democratic officials going to prison or terminated careers. Why would you take offense to my negative/ not so pleasant view of Obama and the slimy term used to describe him? I've often said that I wouldn't pass on an opportunity to have a man to man talk with him about issues that are more relevant to him and his side than they are to those on the other side. I don't take offense to the your negative view of Trump or the nasty thing that you and others often say about him or the nasty things that you and others often accuse him of supporting or being directly involved with promoting like fascism or racism and whatever else works with those who are stuck on the other side.

Taramarie doesn't quite understand the dynamics of modern day America or American politics these days. Taramarie knows New Zealand and a few other countries that she has visited. Taramarie doesn't understand the difference between the Democratic voters these days or the difference between the Republican voters and the Democratic voters these days either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the European rifts of old like fascist vs socialist or communists and Protestants vs Catholics or Protestants and Catholics vs Pagans don't largely apply to the vast majority of modern day American these days. I don't think she's alone because American blues don't seem to understand that either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the right to be a homosexual and the freedom to be homosexual existed long before the right for them to be married and legally recognized as a couple.
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#65
(10-10-2019, 03:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(10-08-2019, 01:27 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(10-07-2019, 11:07 PM)taramarie Wrote: You know what is amazing here? That some people are gullible enough to believe a grown ass middle aged (at the time) man wouldn't know what the definition of sex is and I find it hard to believe he wasn't having actual sexual intercourse as well as oral. I smell a rat.

Bill is far from the issue.  Pointing at Bill to excuse Trump is the worst form of blame-shifting.  But sure, Bill had sex, and lying about it cost him his right to practice law.  Trump not only lies, but bribes and extorts.  So far: nothing.  Worse, Trump has no compunction about using even the most serious power the US has to cover his ass.  Scary!
I didn't use Bill as an excuse to shift blame away from Trump. I used Bill and what Bill obviously did in order to be impeached. Bill lied under oath which is a criminal offense as well as an impeachable offense. As I said, it is pretty common for American presidents to use their power and influence to sway foreign leaders for the sake of their own interests or national interests. I assume that a full scale investigation into that sort of thing or worse would result in many Democratic officials going to prison or terminated careers. Why would you take offense to my negative/ not so pleasant view of Obama and the slimy term used to describe him? I've often said that I wouldn't pass on an opportunity to have a man to man talk with him about issues that are more relevant to him and his side than they are to those on the other side. I don't take offense to the your negative view of Trump or the nasty thing that you and others often say about him or the nasty things that you and others often accuse him of supporting or being directly involved with promoting like fascism or racism and whatever else works with those who are stuck on the other side.

Taramarie doesn't quite understand the dynamics of modern day America or American politics these days. Taramarie knows New Zealand and a few other countries that she has visited. Taramarie doesn't understand the difference between the Democratic voters these days or the difference between the Republican voters and the Democratic voters these days either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the European rifts of old like fascist vs socialist or communists and Protestants vs Catholics or Protestants and Catholics vs Pagans don't  largely apply to the vast majority of modern day American these days. I don't think she's alone because American blues don't seem to understand that either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the right to be a homosexual and the freedom to be homosexual  existed long before the right for them to be married and legally recognized as a couple.
Do you know what it is like for many of these people and can you speak for them and their experience?
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#66
(10-10-2019, 12:40 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(10-09-2019, 04:05 PM)taramarie Wrote: Look I identify more with the left wing in your country as it is more close to home so to say. It is more kiwi. But I also have felt the sting from your side also, some who have this mentality if you are not religiously with them, you are the enemy and if you are the enemy you are a racist bigoted (insert any other insult they can find which isn't actually true). When you start to make questions to find the entire truth as a whole you instantly get that and it makes it near damned impossible to have a conversation. So it is more like the culture is on fire and both are screaming at each other and making accusations that are untrue wanting someone to blame.  I am a lefty here, just from a different country and because I like to question things and find the real truth and not a blind follower I instantly get accusations from my own side, just from a different country! How absurd! Hope that its just a few lefties I have met that are just nuts and isn't the norm. Yes I have encountered some interesting right wingers also who are lets say....extreme also. Seemingly obsessed with guns and super religious and against certain people having the same freedoms they enjoy which I find endlessly entertaining because I thought they were against lack of freedom and govt intervention but I guess they mean for THEM not those "adam and steves."


If you tap into the mindstream of ideologues, this is what it looks like.  Yes, you probably have had blowback that is both unfair and quite likely a bit bizarre.  Let's call that the product of the <1% on the left, and a bigger swath on the right.  That doesn't make the <1% better, just less common.

taramarie Wrote:It kinda goes against that belief of having freedoms and lack of govt intervention which btw is very different from our right wingers in my country. Interesting contrast. The worst has been that they feel if anyone would take away their way of life they are willing to kill for it, but they are quite willing to remove others rights whether it be equal marriage rights, womens rights etc. By them I have been accused that I want their country to burn to the ground and that I want to take away all of their guns and that I am going to burn in hell because I am not religious. The first two, believe it or not right wingers but it actually isn't true, but now then again it doesn't help for me to explain why not now does it. So I wont even bother.


There are actually two distinct variants of "the right" in the US.  While they support each other politically, their beliefs are actually different, and diametrically opposed at times.  There is an excellent study of this, and you can find it at Hidden Tribes of America.  If you scroll down on the main page, you'll see the definitions of the tribes, and the fact that the left has one fringe, but the right has two.

taramarie Wrote:The third accusation almost would be laughable if it wasn't sad. It is abusive but also tells me they were abused into their own religion by their elders. In short, I have noticed both have their agendas and both do point out some very justified inconsistencies. However there is a lot of lies thrown around and I can just state from my own experience why I believe what I do due to what I have experienced and I hope that this isn't the norm over there. Both want as far as I can tell, govt to have the control to fulfil what suits them more it seems to me and both will make the other side an enemy to prevent conversation. 

No one is more a true believer than a convert.  The no-longer-religious are zealous in their non-beliefs, so yes, you'll get some weird stuff there too.

taramarie Wrote:Should be interesting how this shit storm turns out I will say. I just hope this sort of thing never happens in my country.

Somehow, it seems highly unlikely.  Yours was not created as a haven for every religious fringe group of the time, so it's not in your country's DNA.

Yes I have read about them and yes I read your article. Sounds like it fits with what I have come up against time and time again and interesting about the liberals. Yes I assume the extremists I came up against are the progressives on fire. Thank goodness for the last thing you said also. I hope for the very best turn out for your country.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#67
(10-10-2019, 08:09 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 01:16 AM)taramarie Wrote:
(10-09-2019, 10:56 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(10-08-2019, 03:46 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(10-08-2019, 01:21 PM)David Horn Wrote: True that!  Trump is the first POTUS to totally ignore the responsibilities of the office, while exercising powers for his own gain -- many that are specious at best.  If the GOP office holders who back him now continue until he finishes a second term, there won't be much 'America' to pass o to the next POTUS.

Questionable. Here, I have done a bit of reading. But I doubt you need to look so far for an example. But as an American, you should know more. The 5 most notorious presidents in US history

The Presidents on your list were all repugnant in their own way, but Trump is unique in using the office as a business opportunity.  Worse, he is totally amoral, and sees no issue with screwing everyone as long as he gains.  He's not quite shaping up as our Hitler -- not yet, anyway.  That may change if he feels threatened.
Yep sounds like him given he is a money hungry narcissist.

You are talking about many of America's entrepreneurs and corporate bureaucrats, and many of our entertainers and pro athletes. Our system fosters narcissism in its economic elites. The system breaks narcissism in people who must do either hard labor or must do servile work. Certain roles in life teach people that they are expendable in the grand scheme of things, or at least the economic reality that defines the most materialistic society on Earth.

America used to have a more egalitarian ethos, and flagrant narcissists usually did not develop. Maybe that was because more of the business owners were farmers for whom production was the objective and means of sustenance, shopkeepers who had to connect customers to their needs, small-scale bankers who connected entrepreneurs to savers' money, and small-scale manufacturers who had to make things that fit customers' needs. America is less capitalist today because it has far fewer entrepreneurs as a part of the populace but it is also far more plutocratic because those few are in charge of command-and-control systems.

OK, the most flagrant narcissist at one time was the stereotyped prima donna of the opera; then came the Hollywood star. Careers of such people typically went into a fall when the flamboyance overpowered the talent, and such people became more objects as much of contempt than as delight. There were lessons to learn from that -- don't get too big for your breeches, as the saying went. But thanks in part to the economic priorities that people like Ronald Reagan and both Bushes got us directed, we ended up with more concentration of industry and more flagrant  concentration of industry (monopolization and trusts are more profitable than small business, so such is a virtue and not a bane) and the debasement of any moral or cultural quality in education, and while the system created huge numbers of low-paying jobs as restaurant workers and store clerks the manufacturing jobs (remember well that the best route out of poverty for anyone not particularly bright or talented is the factory) faded away. So we got a more severe hierarchy, and people within the favored spots within the hierarchy could get away with more than they used to. I remember (when GI's were the bosses) that the typical GI executive was comparatively old, had been with the company from early adulthood (job-jumping was strongly held in disdain even if there was a pay raise as a career choice), and knew what went on in the mail-room, on the shop or (retail) sales floor, or in sales territories far away from headquarters because he (it was a male-chauvinist time) had been there in that company. Can you imagine someone as an executive in a company having gotten to the top of a bureaucratic organization in a bloated firm after having started as a laborer, clerk, or assembly-line worker? Above-all, the fifty-something executive had a fifty-something wife, and a house (his house was simply paid for) perhaps a little bigger than most. His car was a staid sedan, maybe a Buick instead of a prole Chevy or Ford. Absolutely never was the car a sportscar; by the time he could afford one he no longer needed or wanted one. Such executives could relate to the common man because he really was one. In contrast the typical executive comes from an MBA school... and the deficiencies are obvious, and the culturally-and morally-empty graduates that often come from such schools compensate in egregious consumerism that are theirs because they succeed at keeping others poor.

Donald Trump fits the pattern of the bad MBA. To be sure, we may not need a PhD in Russian literature to be a good leader, but I can assure you that Donald Trump seems less knowledgeable about science, philosophy, and high culture than did many factory workers fifty years ago. Nothing about him is genuine. He is a fake, a fraud, and a phony.
Well as for the discussion of the rise of the narcissist, sure perhaps the culture has shifted towards being all about meeting our own needs and not the whole as a group. Fi vs Fe shift perhaps?? There is good in it but only to a certain point and only about how it is used. Tantra and self healing is one example. Not speaking of the westernised focal point of tantra but its eastern origin. But it also can have a drawback of being quite disconnected from others needs if unhealthy. Same can be said for Fe where it connects to the groups needs, but disconnected to its own needs or isn't sure as the groups needs and their own can feel like one and the same so I have heard from Fe dom users. I do have to wonder if the rise of the hippie and the turning into oneself and then as that generation grew up and became the yuppie of the 80s and the greed is good culture took off it has been festering for a few decades now of the unhealthy use of Fi of focusing on their needs and not anyone else's due to the culture before them that was about others out of necessity basically but also about how they were raised to be considerate of other people first which sounds more Fe. Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree here though. Just some thoughts of interest. Regardless the underlying theme here is once the dust settled there seemed to be an itch for focusing on the self and the individuals needs and shaking off the civic mindset of their parents. That said while it may be supposedly be more common now for narcissists to sprout up perhaps as a counteractive to the previous mindset, there are individuals regardless who regardless of the era are still narcissistic. My partner his now thankfully deceased grandmother was one. Yes shocking to say thankfully but I do have my reasons. Lets just say she was not only narcissistic but a well known psychopath who left my partner traumatized. She raised a narcissist who then went on to raise one narcissist who will be my brother in law. It seems when you have a series of narcissists in a family they are so damned busy meeting their own needs they forget the needs of the child who then goes on to believe to meet their needs they need to force them and run over anyone else to get it. Which makes me wonder if DT's parents were narcs? Possible. Which then would mean he had a sad childhood. Kids of narcs go in either two ways, they become narcs or develop the victim mentality. But they also end up a very fragmented person who has lost themselves in order to gain the love and acceptance that can never be as a narcissist can never truly love someone or give them the empathy that they need because they are far too busy meeting their own needs to see their child's who to them is a living breathing doll to shape into what they want. Which is themselves. So of course a person like DT is seeing this as a business opportunity for himself as someone put it. He is all about himself and has been raised in the culture which focused within itself and the root to the narcissist starts off young and at home also which tells me that he experienced trauma where his needs were not met long enough for himself and others like him to force it and run over anyone in their way. Personal thought, it will be "fun" for me having a narcissist for a mother in law and brother in law I can tell you that one. She already is unbearable.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#68
(10-10-2019, 04:01 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 03:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(10-08-2019, 01:27 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(10-07-2019, 11:07 PM)taramarie Wrote: You know what is amazing here? That some people are gullible enough to believe a grown ass middle aged (at the time) man wouldn't know what the definition of sex is and I find it hard to believe he wasn't having actual sexual intercourse as well as oral. I smell a rat.

Bill is far from the issue.  Pointing at Bill to excuse Trump is the worst form of blame-shifting.  But sure, Bill had sex, and lying about it cost him his right to practice law.  Trump not only lies, but bribes and extorts.  So far: nothing.  Worse, Trump has no compunction about using even the most serious power the US has to cover his ass.  Scary!
I didn't use Bill as an excuse to shift blame away from Trump. I used Bill and what Bill obviously did in order to be impeached. Bill lied under oath which is a criminal offense as well as an impeachable offense. As I said, it is pretty common for American presidents to use their power and influence to sway foreign leaders for the sake of their own interests or national interests. I assume that a full scale investigation into that sort of thing or worse would result in many Democratic officials going to prison or terminated careers. Why would you take offense to my negative/ not so pleasant view of Obama and the slimy term used to describe him? I've often said that I wouldn't pass on an opportunity to have a man to man talk with him about issues that are more relevant to him and his side than they are to those on the other side. I don't take offense to the your negative view of Trump or the nasty thing that you and others often say about him or the nasty things that you and others often accuse him of supporting or being directly involved with promoting like fascism or racism and whatever else works with those who are stuck on the other side.

Taramarie doesn't quite understand the dynamics of modern day America or American politics these days. Taramarie knows New Zealand and a few other countries that she has visited. Taramarie doesn't understand the difference between the Democratic voters these days or the difference between the Republican voters and the Democratic voters these days either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the European rifts of old like fascist vs socialist or communists and Protestants vs Catholics or Protestants and Catholics vs Pagans don't  largely apply to the vast majority of modern day American these days. I don't think she's alone because American blues don't seem to understand that either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the right to be a homosexual and the freedom to be homosexual  existed long before the right for them to be married and legally recognized as a couple.
Do you know what it is like for many of these people and can you speak for them and their experience?
Nope. I don't know what it's like to be a homosexual and I can't really speak for them or their experiences. I'm not one of them and I never lived as one of them. With that said, do you know what it's like to be one and can you really speak for them and their experiences. Now, I can attest to what it's like being poor and barely making enough to survive and being reliant on someone else is poor because I have experienced that during my lifetime.
Reply
#69
(10-10-2019, 06:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 04:01 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 03:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(10-08-2019, 01:27 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(10-07-2019, 11:07 PM)taramarie Wrote: You know what is amazing here? That some people are gullible enough to believe a grown ass middle aged (at the time) man wouldn't know what the definition of sex is and I find it hard to believe he wasn't having actual sexual intercourse as well as oral. I smell a rat.

Bill is far from the issue.  Pointing at Bill to excuse Trump is the worst form of blame-shifting.  But sure, Bill had sex, and lying about it cost him his right to practice law.  Trump not only lies, but bribes and extorts.  So far: nothing.  Worse, Trump has no compunction about using even the most serious power the US has to cover his ass.  Scary!
I didn't use Bill as an excuse to shift blame away from Trump. I used Bill and what Bill obviously did in order to be impeached. Bill lied under oath which is a criminal offense as well as an impeachable offense. As I said, it is pretty common for American presidents to use their power and influence to sway foreign leaders for the sake of their own interests or national interests. I assume that a full scale investigation into that sort of thing or worse would result in many Democratic officials going to prison or terminated careers. Why would you take offense to my negative/ not so pleasant view of Obama and the slimy term used to describe him? I've often said that I wouldn't pass on an opportunity to have a man to man talk with him about issues that are more relevant to him and his side than they are to those on the other side. I don't take offense to the your negative view of Trump or the nasty thing that you and others often say about him or the nasty things that you and others often accuse him of supporting or being directly involved with promoting like fascism or racism and whatever else works with those who are stuck on the other side.

Taramarie doesn't quite understand the dynamics of modern day America or American politics these days. Taramarie knows New Zealand and a few other countries that she has visited. Taramarie doesn't understand the difference between the Democratic voters these days or the difference between the Republican voters and the Democratic voters these days either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the European rifts of old like fascist vs socialist or communists and Protestants vs Catholics or Protestants and Catholics vs Pagans don't  largely apply to the vast majority of modern day American these days. I don't think she's alone because American blues don't seem to understand that either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the right to be a homosexual and the freedom to be homosexual  existed long before the right for them to be married and legally recognized as a couple.
Do you know what it is like for many of these people and can you speak for them and their experience?
Nope. I don't know what it's like to be a homosexual and I can't really speak for them or their experiences. I'm not one of them and I never actually lived as one of them. With that said, do you really know what it's like and can you/ are you really able speak for them and their experiences. Now, I can attest to what it's like being poor and barely making enough to survive and being reliant on someone else is poor because I have experienced it during my lifetime.
I have read extensively about their experiences, spoken to many and I can say for a fact that what you said was incorrect and not understanding of their situation.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#70
(10-10-2019, 06:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Nope. I don't know what it's like to be a homosexual and I can't really speak for them or their experiences. I'm not one of them and I never lived as one of them. With that said, do you know what it's like to be one and can you really speak for them and their experiences.  Now, I can attest to what it's like being poor and barely making enough to survive and being reliant on someone else is poor because I have experienced that during my lifetime.

I doubt that anyone not homosexual understands homosexuality. I have seen theories from psychological trauma to being attracted to the 'wrong' pheromones... but nothing convincing. From what I have heard homosexuals say, they often cannot imagine being straight. 

Nobody chooses homosexuality, so far as I can tell.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


Reply
#71
(10-10-2019, 07:58 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 06:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Nope. I don't know what it's like to be a homosexual and I can't really speak for them or their experiences. I'm not one of them and I never lived as one of them. With that said, do you know what it's like to be one and can you really speak for them and their experiences.  Now, I can attest to what it's like being poor and barely making enough to survive and being reliant on someone else is poor because I have experienced that during my lifetime.

I doubt that anyone not homosexual understands homosexuality. I have seen theories from psychological trauma to being attracted to the 'wrong' pheromones... but nothing convincing. From what I have heard homosexual say, they often cannot imagine being straight. 

Nobody chooses homosexuality, so far as I can tell.
Bingo. Closest you can get to it is LISTENING to them and seeing what happens to them.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#72
(10-10-2019, 10:29 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 07:58 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 06:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Nope. I don't know what it's like to be a homosexual and I can't really speak for them or their experiences. I'm not one of them and I never lived as one of them. With that said, do you know what it's like to be one and can you really speak for them and their experiences.  Now, I can attest to what it's like being poor and barely making enough to survive and being reliant on someone else is poor because I have experienced that during my lifetime.

I doubt that anyone not homosexual understands homosexuality. I have seen theories from psychological trauma to being attracted to the 'wrong' pheromones... but nothing convincing. From what I have heard homosexual say, they often cannot imagine being straight. 

Nobody chooses homosexuality, so far as I can tell.
Bingo. Closest you can get to it is LISTENING to them and seeing what happens to them.
Bingo! You are correct. You have to be homosexual and live among them in order to fully understand what it's like to be them and share their experiences.
Reply
#73
(10-10-2019, 11:30 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 10:29 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 07:58 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 06:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Nope. I don't know what it's like to be a homosexual and I can't really speak for them or their experiences. I'm not one of them and I never lived as one of them. With that said, do you know what it's like to be one and can you really speak for them and their experiences.  Now, I can attest to what it's like being poor and barely making enough to survive and being reliant on someone else is poor because I have experienced that during my lifetime.

I doubt that anyone not homosexual understands homosexuality. I have seen theories from psychological trauma to being attracted to the 'wrong' pheromones... but nothing convincing. From what I have heard homosexual say, they often cannot imagine being straight. 

Nobody chooses homosexuality, so far as I can tell.
Bingo. Closest you can get to it is LISTENING to them and seeing what happens to them.
Bingo! You are correct. You have to be homosexual and live among them  in order to fully  understand what it's like to be them and share their experiences.
Which I have. Which is why you speaking of their experiences was absurd in the first place. The very best to speak of it is them. The second best are those who listen and shut their mouths about inaccurate "facts" about them and what their rights and experiences are. I have lived among them and heard all about their experiences and I can tell you right now that what you have claimed is sadly out of touch with reality. But I do advise for you if you wish to stick to the facts, for you to pay a little more attention to them and if you aren't interested, then stick to what you know best.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#74
Btw consider this before saying anything that one of my best friends ran away from home because her parents did not accept her being a lesbian. We lived right next door to each other for years and then one day I found an ambulance was dragging out her body and putting her in an ambulance. I knew she was depressed but had no idea she would do what she did. She gassed herself in her car and deliberately killed herself. For years I tried my best to be of support but in the end the lack of support and the shaming for just being who she was was too much for her. So do consider this before typing a response. I lost someone near and dear and have heard what it is like first hand and had to see her body taken away.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#75
(10-11-2019, 12:10 AM)taramarie Wrote: Btw consider this before saying anything that one of my best friends ran away from home because her parents did not accept her being a lesbian. We lived right next door to each other for years and then one day I found an ambulance was dragging out her body and putting her in an ambulance. I knew she was depressed but had no idea she would do what she did. She gassed herself in her car and deliberately killed herself. For years I tried my best to be of support but in the end the lack of support and the shaming for just being who she was was too much for her. So do consider this before typing a response. I lost someone near and dear and have heard what it is like first hand and had to see her body taken away.
I knew a gal in high school who killed herself for the same reason as your friend. I knew a guy in high school who killed himself the same way as your friend but did it for a different reason. I now another guy (my best friends older brother) who I knew my entire life who killed himself the same way as your friend for a different reason. You may want to consider all these experiences as well.
Reply
#76
(10-11-2019, 01:49 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(10-11-2019, 12:10 AM)taramarie Wrote: Btw consider this before saying anything that one of my best friends ran away from home because her parents did not accept her being a lesbian. We lived right next door to each other for years and then one day I found an ambulance was dragging out her body and putting her in an ambulance. I knew she was depressed but had no idea she would do what she did. She gassed herself in her car and deliberately killed herself. For years I tried my best to be of support but in the end the lack of support and the shaming for just being who she was was too much for her. So do consider this before typing a response. I lost someone near and dear and have heard what it is like first hand and had to see her body taken away.
I knew a gal in high school who killed herself for the same reason as your friend. I knew a guy in high school who killed himself the same way as your friend but did it for a different reason. I now another guy (my best friends older brother) who I knew my entire life who killed himself the same way as your friend for a different reason. You may want to consider all these experiences as well.

I am fully aware that people kill themselves for other reasons. My uncle killed himself also. But to ignore THIS as another reason for someone to kill themselves is unfortunately sheer ignorance and the question is, are you just ignorant or being wilfully so? This is actually just avoiding the topic to others so lets stick to this topic shall we? I knew her very well and what her issues were and why she wanted to do it. There are many reasons why someone kills themselves. But this would get off the topic entirely and I will not be doing that today as that is an avoidance tactic and a shameful one at that. The question is however why would you want to be avoiding it and pointing to others when the topic at hand is about the homosexual community? Is it too harsh and uncomfortable topic or you do not know how else to respond to someone who has had experience close hand to what a destructive society can and does do to the psyche of those who do not shape up to what society thinks is "normal" and worthy of their acceptance? Stick to the topic otherwise it does appear you are trying to avoid it or if you rather avoid it, state as such instead of tiptoeing around it by pointing to other things. Do you have any clue what you have done which basically is "whataboutism" which is well known for avoiding what is uncomfortable and not facing and addressing actual problems and stating oh but what about this and that? Which is not facing anything really. To truly understand ONE issue you need to keep your focus on that ONE topic. Many people kill themselves. There are varying reasons why. We are discussing the very real reality of the human condition of homosexuals. A man your age should have far better attention than this.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#77
(10-11-2019, 01:49 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(10-11-2019, 12:10 AM)taramarie Wrote: Btw consider this before saying anything that one of my best friends ran away from home because her parents did not accept her being a lesbian. We lived right next door to each other for years and then one day I found an ambulance was dragging out her body and putting her in an ambulance. I knew she was depressed but had no idea she would do what she did. She gassed herself in her car and deliberately killed herself. For years I tried my best to be of support but in the end the lack of support and the shaming for just being who she was was too much for her. So do consider this before typing a response. I lost someone near and dear and have heard what it is like first hand and had to see her body taken away.

I knew a gal in high school who killed herself for the same reason as your friend. I knew a guy in high school who killed himself the same way as your friend but did it for a different reason. I now another guy (my best friends older brother) who I knew my entire life who killed himself the same way as your friend for a different reason. You may want to consider all these experiences as well.

Rejection by people whom one used to believe accepted you unconditionally and then turned against you completely because one is homosexual? Having been in a time in which I contemplated suicide (family assets necessary for me to start over as my father went into a nursing home and facing the prospect of having to live in which my sole purpose in life would be to suffer for people richer than myself, living in a community that I have outgrown in every way but financially, and knowing that nothing matters in America except wealth and bureaucratic power? All that kept me from killing myself was the fear of Hell. 

America has debased itself badly as the economic elites have accumulated complete power only to toy with us on occasion with a Clinton or Obama to offer some hope that politics can change something. Then comes Donald Trump who dredges up the worst in human nature in America on behalf of the rich-and-powerful. The people who really rule us seem to hold onto the belief that the sole reason for the existence of the rest of us is to enrich and pamper those elites in return for bare existence... and as a reward, the current opiate of the masses, disposable mass low culture that people must replace almost as if it were last-year's clothes (if one is middle class) or the clothes from two or three years ago (if one is poor). 

I grew up in a time in which many people still practiced the ethos of "make-it-do-or-do-without", which is good for ensuring that one can keep a savings account to meet a glaring need and ultimately to make retirement more comfortable than otherwise. I have nice book, music (classical), and movie collections... and I think people would be richer, at least emotionally, if they looked to real culture instead of the derivative and expendable stuff that a commercial society pushes as if it were a drug-trafficker offering heroin.

We are in a messed-up time because we are no longer able to get more happiness by making, selling, and using more stuff. Basic needs remain, but such activities as farming, energy extraction, clothing manufacturing, and the building of low-income housing are not particularly lucrative. What used to be desired luxuries are now often junk due to a glut. 

...back to Donald Trump. I knew that he would be a disaster because he made promises that could only bring conflict. Although paradoxes are always possible, blatant contradictions can never reconcile. We get such a warning from Kafka to a lesser extent and Orwell to a greater extent, and we ignore those two only at the risk of missing the sagest advice from the twentieth century. Donald Trump does Newspeak, probably without knowing that he does so. Well, Orwellian Newspeak turns discourse on anything into sheer madness. There was truth before Trump and there will be truth after him. Impeachment is not for offense of mass sensibilities or for administrative incompetence; it is instead for malfeasance, including corruption and other crime. Impeachment is a duty when the President's misconduct is as egregious as it seems to be. Note well: the impeachment itself is a collection of charges analogous to a criminal indictment. Innocent people have been indicted and acquitted. Nothing of which President Trump is said to have done is yet proved in any court of law. But there is the stench of rotting flesh in the trunk.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


Reply
#78
(10-10-2019, 03:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I didn't use Bill as an excuse to shift blame away from Trump. I used Bill and what Bill obviously did while President in order to actually be impeached. Bill basically lied under oath which is a criminal offense as well as an impeachable offense.

FYI: what you wrote above is the very definition of blame-shifting.

Classic-Xer Wrote:As I said, it is pretty common for American presidents to use their power and influence to sway foreign leaders for the sake of their own interests or national interests.

There is a vast difference between the national interest and one's personal interest. Again: blame-shifting.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I assume that a full scale investigation into that sort of thing or worse would result in many Democratic officials going to prison or terminated careers. Why would you take offense to my negative/ not so pleasant view of Obama and the slimy term used to describe him? I've often said that I wouldn't pass on an opportunity to have a man to man talk with him about issues that are more relevant to him and his side than they are to those on the other side.

What did Obama do that was slimy? He made mistakes as they all do, but I can't see any slime anywhere.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I don't take offense to the your negative view of Trump or the nasty thing that you and others often say about him or the nasty things that you and others often accuse him of supporting or being directly involved with promoting like fascism or racism and whatever else works with those who are stuck on the other side.

He has done nothing right from day one. It's hard to make a list. Let's take a few examples from foreign policy, since its the primary responsibility of the President:
  1. He purposely failed to fill positions in the government, for reason that have proven nefarious on several know occasions.
  2. He's run a secret foreign policy with tyrants -- including secret meetings with Putin that weren't even witnessed by an American interpreter, and, on the one case one was, he seized the notes.
  3. He's single handedly trashed the post-WWII relationships we've spent decades building with allies and neighbors.
  4. Now, he's using extortion on a foreign government to get dirt, real or imagined - either is fine with him - on an opponent.
This could go on, but that's enough I think.

Classic-Xer Wrote:Taramarie doesn't quite understand the dynamics of modern day America or American politics these days. Taramarie knows New Zealand and a few other countries that she has visited. Taramarie doesn't understand the difference between the Democratic voters these days or the difference between the Republican voters and the Democratic voters these days either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the European rifts of old like fascist vs socialist or communists and Protestants vs Catholics or Protestants and Catholics vs Pagans don't  largely apply to the vast majority of modern day American these days.

You think they don't? Just because the wording is bit different doesn't make them different in kind. Trump is playing Fascist dictator, or trying to. If you missed it, do some reading on the 1930s in Europe, and how Fascism grew there. It's so similar is scary.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I don't think she's alone because American blues don't seem to understand that either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the right to be a homosexual and the freedom to be homosexual  existed long before the right for them to be married and legally recognized as a couple.

The right to be openly gay is fairly recent. In fact, there is a case before the SCOTUS where the Trump administration is arguing gays aren't protected in the workplace. There isn't much freedom if you can't make a living.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
Reply
#79
(10-11-2019, 09:44 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 03:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I didn't use Bill as an excuse to shift blame away from Trump. I used Bill and what Bill obviously did while President in order to actually be impeached. Bill basically lied under oath which is a criminal offense as well as an impeachable offense.

FYI: what you wrote above is the very definition of blame-shifting.

Classic-Xer Wrote:As I said, it is pretty common for American presidents to use their power and influence to sway foreign leaders for the sake of their own interests or national interests.

There is a vast difference between the national interest and one's personal interest.  Again: blame-shifting.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I assume that a full scale investigation into that sort of thing or worse would result in many Democratic officials going to prison or terminated careers. Why would you take offense to my negative/ not so pleasant view of Obama and the slimy term used to describe him? I've often said that I wouldn't pass on an opportunity to have a man to man talk with him about issues that are more relevant to him and his side than they are to those on the other side.

What did Obama do that was slimy?  He made mistakes as they all do, but I can't see any slime anywhere.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I don't take offense to the your negative view of Trump or the nasty thing that you and others often say about him or the nasty things that you and others often accuse him of supporting or being directly involved with promoting like fascism or racism and whatever else works with those who are stuck on the other side.

He has done nothing right from day one.  It's hard to make a list.  Let's take a few examples from foreign policy, since its the primary responsibility of the President:
  1. He purposely failed to fill positions in the government, for reason that have proven nefarious on several know occasions.  
  2. He's run a secret foreign policy with tyrants -- including secret meetings with Putin that weren't even witnessed by an American interpreter, and, on the one case one was, he seized the notes.
  3. He's single handedly trashed the post-WWII relationships we've spent decades building with allies and neighbors.
  4. Now, he's using extortion on a foreign government to get dirt, real or imagined - either is fine with him - on an opponent.
This could go on, but that's enough I think.  

Classic-Xer Wrote:Taramarie doesn't quite understand the dynamics of modern day America or American politics these days. Taramarie knows New Zealand and a few other countries that she has visited. Taramarie doesn't understand the difference between the Democratic voters these days or the difference between the Republican voters and the Democratic voters these days either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the European rifts of old like fascist vs socialist or communists and Protestants vs Catholics or Protestants and Catholics vs Pagans don't  largely apply to the vast majority of modern day American these days.

You think they don't?  Just because the wording is bit different doesn't make them different in kind.  Trump is playing Fascist dictator, or trying to.  If you missed it, do some reading on the 1930s in Europe, and how Fascism grew there.  It's so similar is scary.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I don't think she's alone because American blues don't seem to understand that either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the right to be a homosexual and the freedom to be homosexual  existed long before the right for them to be married and legally recognized as a couple.

The right to be openly gay is fairly recent.  In fact, there is a case before the SCOTUS where the Trump administration is arguing gays aren't protected in the workplace.  There isn't much freedom if you can't make a living.
Blaming me/Republicans for the mismanagement and incompetent leadership of some blue city or the mismanagement or incompetence related to some blue persons life or the act of some greedy/corrupt blue President in the past that results in millions of American job losses across an entire country are other clear examples of the blame shifting that blues do often as well. Blaming me for something you or some other blue obviously did or said and don't care to admit is wrong that directly offends, alienates or seriously pisses me or someone else off and millions of others is another clear example of blame shifting that blues tended to do often but not as often these days. Blaming me for the Republican president who was elected while I was a freshman in high school is another clear example of blue blame shifting that's STILL going on.

Dude, I look at the blues and look at the list of all the blues wants and needs pertaining to themselves. I look at the blue system of justice as its often being used on TV today. I look at the blue media system that's in place and I look at how its being used by the Progressives today. I look at the blue ideology and I see the obvious similarity to those of Eastern Europe at one time and a significant portion of Asia today. I don't need to read a book to see a fascist, socialist or communist system or a fascist, socialist or communist mass communication system that's in place and so forth. Heck, all that's missing right now is an army and a massive government security apparatus with the power to do anything that it needs to remain in power and survive. Right now, all the Progressives have to work with is everything that's needed to attempt winning American hearts and minds and I'd say that they reached they're peak a decade ago.
Reply
#80
(10-11-2019, 08:49 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(10-11-2019, 01:49 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(10-11-2019, 12:10 AM)taramarie Wrote: Btw consider this before saying anything that one of my best friends ran away from home because her parents did not accept her being a lesbian. We lived right next door to each other for years and then one day I found an ambulance was dragging out her body and putting her in an ambulance. I knew she was depressed but had no idea she would do what she did. She gassed herself in her car and deliberately killed herself. For years I tried my best to be of support but in the end the lack of support and the shaming for just being who she was was too much for her. So do consider this before typing a response. I lost someone near and dear and have heard what it is like first hand and had to see her body taken away.

I knew a gal in high school who killed herself for the same reason as your friend. I knew a guy in high school who killed himself the same way as your friend but did it for a different reason. I now another guy (my best friends older brother) who I knew my entire life who killed himself the same way as your friend for a different reason. You may want to consider all these experiences as well.

Rejection by people whom one used to believe accepted you unconditionally and then turned against you completely because one is homosexual? Having been in a time in which I contemplated suicide (family assets necessary for me to start over as my father went into a nursing home and facing the prospect of having to live in which my sole purpose in life would be to suffer for people richer than myself, living in a community that I have outgrown in every way but financially, and knowing that nothing matters in America except wealth and bureaucratic power? All that kept me from killing myself was the fear of Hell. 

America has debased itself badly as the economic elites have accumulated complete power only to toy with us on occasion with a Clinton or Obama to offer some hope that politics can change something. Then comes Donald Trump who dredges up the worst in human nature in America on behalf of the rich-and-powerful. The people who really rule us seem to hold onto the belief that the sole reason for the existence of the rest of us is to enrich and pamper those elites in return for bare existence... and as a reward, the current opiate of the masses, disposable mass low culture that people must replace almost as if it were last-year's clothes (if one is middle class) or the clothes from two or three years ago (if one is poor). 

I grew up in a time in which many people still practiced the ethos of "make-it-do-or-do-without", which is good for ensuring that one can keep a savings account to meet a glaring need and ultimately to make retirement more comfortable than otherwise. I have nice book, music (classical), and movie collections... and I think people would be richer, at least emotionally, if they looked to real culture instead of the derivative and expendable stuff that a commercial society pushes as if it were a drug-trafficker offering heroin.

We are in a messed-up time because we are no longer able to get more happiness by making, selling, and using more stuff. Basic needs remain, but such activities as farming, energy extraction, clothing manufacturing, and the building of low-income housing are not particularly lucrative. What used to be desired luxuries are now often junk due to a glut. 

...back to Donald Trump. I knew that he would be a disaster because he made promises that could only bring conflict. Although paradoxes are always possible, blatant contradictions can never reconcile. We get such a warning from Kafka to a lesser extent and Orwell to a greater extent, and we ignore those two only at the risk of missing the sagest advice from the twentieth century. Donald Trump does Newspeak, probably without knowing that he does so. Well, Orwellian Newspeak turns discourse on anything into sheer madness. There was truth before Trump and there will be truth after him. Impeachment is not for offense of mass sensibilities or for administrative incompetence; it is instead for malfeasance, including corruption and other crime. Impeachment is a duty when the President's misconduct is as egregious as it seems to be. Note well: the impeachment itself is a collection of charges analogous to a criminal indictment. Innocent people have been indicted and acquitted. Nothing of which President Trump is said to have done is yet proved in any court of law. But there is the stench of rotting flesh in the trunk.
That's you man. Certain people here need to understand that those who commit suicide specifically for this reason as this was what I was discussing, that their whole world has shattered. If you think no one loves you and even those who are family don't accept you for who you are and tear you down just for being you and outcast you from the family suicide becomes a real option because they already are in their own living hell. Because more than food and water, humans need to feel accepted and loved. We are social animals after all.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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