To impeach, or not to impeach

[Classic-Xer]

(10-11-2019, 09:44 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-10-2019, 03:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I didn't use Bill as an excuse to shift blame away from Trump. I used Bill and what Bill obviously did while President in order to actually be impeached. Bill basically lied under oath which is a criminal offense as well as an impeachable offense.

FYI: what you wrote above is the very definition of blame-shifting.

Classic-Xer Wrote:As I said, it is pretty common for American presidents to use their power and influence to sway foreign leaders for the sake of their own interests or national interests.

There is a vast difference between the national interest and one's personal interest.  Again: blame-shifting.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I assume that a full scale investigation into that sort of thing or worse would result in many Democratic officials going to prison or terminated careers. Why would you take offense to my negative/ not so pleasant view of Obama and the slimy term used to describe him? I've often said that I wouldn't pass on an opportunity to have a man to man talk with him about issues that are more relevant to him and his side than they are to those on the other side.

What did Obama do that was slimy?  He made mistakes as they all do, but I can't see any slime anywhere.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I don't take offense to the your negative view of Trump or the nasty thing that you and others often say about him or the nasty things that you and others often accuse him of supporting or being directly involved with promoting like fascism or racism and whatever else works with those who are stuck on the other side.

He has done nothing right from day one.  It's hard to make a list.  Let's take a few examples from foreign policy, since its the primary responsibility of the President:

1. He purposely failed to fill positions in the government, for reason that have proven nefarious on several know occasions.  
   
2. He's run a secret foreign policy with tyrants -- including secret meetings with Putin that weren't even witnessed by an American interpreter, and, on the one case one was, he seized the notes.
   
3. He's single handedly trashed the post-WWII relationships we've spent decades building with allies and neighbors.
   
4. Now, he's using extortion on a foreign government to get dirt, real or imagined - either is fine with him - on an opponent.
   

This could go on, but that's enough I think.  

Classic-Xer Wrote:Taramarie doesn't quite understand the dynamics of modern day America or American politics these days. Taramarie knows New Zealand and a few other countries that she has visited. Taramarie doesn't understand the difference between the Democratic voters these days or the difference between the Republican voters and the Democratic voters these days either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the European rifts of old like fascist vs socialist or communists and Protestants vs Catholics or Protestants and Catholics vs Pagans don't  largely apply to the vast majority of modern day American these days.

You think they don't?  Just because the wording is bit different doesn't make them different in kind.  Trump is playing Fascist dictator, or trying to.  If you missed it, do some reading on the 1930s in Europe, and how Fascism grew there.  It's so similar is scary.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I don't think she's alone because American blues don't seem to understand that either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the right to be a homosexual and the freedom to be homosexual  existed long before the right for them to be married and legally recognized as a couple.

The right to be openly gay is fairly recent.  In fact, there is a case before the SCOTUS where the Trump administration is arguing gays aren't protected in the workplace.  There isn't much freedom if you can't make a living.

Blaming me/Republicans for the mismanagement and incompetent leadership of some blue city or the mismanagement or incompetence related to some blue persons life or the act of some greedy/corrupt blue President in the past that results in millions of American job losses across an entire country are other clear examples of the blame shifting that blues do often as well. Blaming me for something you or some other blue obviously did or said and don't care to admit is wrong that directly offends, alienates or seriously pisses me or someone else off and millions of others is another clear example of blame shifting that blues tended to do often but not as often these days. Blaming me for the Republican president who was elected while I was a freshman in high school is another clear example of blue blame shifting that's STILL going on.

Dude, I look at the blues and look at the list of all the blues wants and needs pertaining to themselves. I look at the blue system of justice as its often being used on TV today. I look at the blue media system that's in place and I look at how its being used by the Progressives today. I look at the blue ideology and I see the obvious similarity to those of Eastern Europe at one time and a significant portion of Asia today. I don't need to read a book to see a fascist, socialist or communist system or a fascist, socialist or communist mass communication system that's in place and so forth. Heck, all that's missing right now is an army and a massive government security apparatus with the power to do anything that it needs to remain in power and survive. Right now, all the Progressives have to work with is everything that's needed to attempt winning American hearts and minds and I'd say that they reached they're peak a decade ago.

[pbrower2a]

Something is not great simply because it is over-refined. If anything I recognize the need of classical musicians to rediscover folk traditions as a means of recovering some melodic coherence. This makes Chopin distinct, Dvorak delightful, and Bartok amazing. The works of Shostakovich are spotty, often because he was obliged to compromise musical languages for reasons of infusing it with propaganda -- but his more personal string quartets are sublime in part because he reaches to the Soviet tradition of folk music.

Even if we are subjected to huge quantities of bilge, we are in a second golden era of the cinema (which is about time, in view of the eighty years that have passed since the Golden Year (1939) of American cinema... I used to knock movies rich in special effects often a substitute for good writing, but Marvel Studios puts out movies that have some good dialogue and credible story lines. Pixar seems to offer animation that people of all ages, ethnic groups, and levels of sophistication can enjoy. We may be trending toward a new omnibus culture.

I wish that I could give such advice as "Listen to Sibelius' Sixth Symphony and call me in the morning"; if I could do that I might put many therapists out of business.

I can say this: we would be better off if more people got liberal education as education in knowing how to live. Even brilliant people who get strict technical education without the liberal arts tend to gravitate to the lowest common denominator of sex, drugs (if 'only' alcohol), material indulgence, and bureaucratic power.

[pbrower2a]

(10-11-2019, 05:26 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(10-11-2019, 05:23 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Something is not great simply because it is over-refined. If anything I recognize the need of classical musicians to rediscover folk traditions as a means of recovering some melodic coherence. This makes Chopin distinct, Dvorak delightful, and Bartok amazing. The works of Shostakovich are spotty, often because he was obliged to compromise musical languages for reasons of infusing it with propaganda -- but his more personal string quartets are sublime in part because he reaches to the Soviet tradition of folk music.

Even if we are subjected to huge quantities of bilge, we are in a second golden era of the cinema (which is about time, in view of the eighty years that have passed since the Golden Year (1939) of American cinema... I used to knock movies rich in special effects often a substitute for good writing, but Marvel Studios puts out movies that have some good dialogue and credible story lines. Pixar seems to offer animation that people of all ages, ethnic groups, and levels of sophistication can enjoy. We may be trending toward a new omnibus culture.

I wish that I could give such advice as "Listen to Sibelius' Sixth Symphony and call me in the morning"; if I could do that I might put many therapists out of business.

I can say this: we would be better off if more people got liberal education as education in knowing how to live. Even brilliant people who get strict technical education without the liberal arts tend to gravitate to the lowest common denominator of sex, drugs (if 'only' alcohol), material indulgence, and bureaucratic power.

That is not how trauma works but ok....

Beyond any question. The injured memory never heals -- which is about the only way in which I can understand it. The only trauma that I have known has been economic. I can only wonder how people who survived the worst trauma ever -- genocide -- can deal with it. Express and explain as Elie Wiesel did?

I cannot say what I would do. I have thought of it, but I cannot draw any conclusions.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-08-2019, 08:56 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: *It may be ironic, but right-wingers are far more likely to defend roguish figures.

 https://theauthoritarians.org/Downloads/...arians.pdf

Quote:So (to foreshadow later chapters a little) suppose you are a completely
unethical, dishonest, power-hungry, dirt-bag, scum-bucket politician who will say
whatever he has to say to get elected. (I apologize for putting you in this role, but it
will only last for one more sentence.) Whom are you going to try to lead, high RWAs
or low RWAs? Isn’t it obvious? The easy-sell high RWAs will open up their arms and
wallets to you if you just sing their song, however poor your credibility. Those crabby
low RWAs, on the other hand, will eye you warily when your credibility is suspect
because you sing their song? So the scum-bucket politicians will usually head for the
right-wing authoritarians, because the RWAs hunger for social endorsement of their
beliefs so much they’re apt to trust anyone who tells them they’re right. Heck, Adolf
Hitler was elected Chancellor of Germany running on a law-and-order platform just
a few years after he tried to overthrow the government through an armed insurrection.

You sometimes hear that paranoia runs at a gallop in “right-wingers”. But
maybe you can see how that’s an oversimplification. Authoritarian followers are
highly suspicious of their many out-groups; but they are credulous to the point of
self-delusion when it comes to their in-groups. So (in another experiment I ran) subjects
were told a Christian Crusade was coming to town led by a TV evangelist. The
evangelist (the subjects were further told), knowing that people would give more
money at the end of the evening if he gave them the kind of service they liked, asked
around to see what that might be. Finding out that folks in your city liked a “personal
testimonial” crusade, he gave them one featuring his own emotional testimonial to
Jesus’ saving grace. How sincere do you think he was? Most subjects had their doubts,
given the circumstances. But High RWAs almost always trusted him.

(RWA = right-wing authoritarian, an abbreviation that the author uses 439 times in his paper).

I know your content well, and Right-Wing Authoritarian (RWA) describes you well.

Yes, I'm a lowly RWA  as mentioned above, a lowly RWA with common sense and good instincts and a broader range of knowledge and understanding that most Progressives educated by Progressives primarily for the use of Progressives don't seem to have these days. You don't believe me then read it again. You don't believe what I have to say about Progressives is true then start reading posts by Progressives. 

I already told you that I'm not a fan of Trump. Trump has to do more than just look good and sound sharp and tell us what we want to hear in front of the national camera's to impress us. He can tell us there are parts of the country that are turning to shit because we are able to see the parts of the country that are turning to shit these days. He can tell us that there are foreign criminals mixed in with the illegals entering the country. He can point out a partisan judge directly affiliated with a social justice group and even refer to him as a Mexican. He can do so because he's not telling us anything we don't already know or have seen in real life. What you have to do is pray the wrong person isn't killed by the foolishness/clueless behavior or by some Progressive judge or some Progressive court. Why??? That's simple, most Americans no longer view them as American courts these days. Yes, the Progressives are in deep shit here and it's only the Progressive's who don't seem to realize it or seem to care much about it. Yes, right wingers aren't afraid to remind it's chosen party who is really in charge and let them see what happens to them when they fail at something important to us.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-11-2019, 03:11 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(10-11-2019, 01:49 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-11-2019, 12:10 AM)taramarie Wrote: Btw consider this before saying anything that one of my best friends ran away from home because her parents did not accept her being a lesbian. We lived right next door to each other for years and then one day I found an ambulance was dragging out her body and putting her in an ambulance. I knew she was depressed but had no idea she would do what she did. She gassed herself in her car and deliberately killed herself. For years I tried my best to be of support but in the end the lack of support and the shaming for just being who she was was too much for her. So do consider this before typing a response. I lost someone near and dear and have heard what it is like first hand and had to see her body taken away.

I knew a gal in high school who killed herself for the same reason as your friend. I knew a guy in high school who killed himself the same way as your friend but did it for a different reason. I now another guy (my best friends older brother) who I knew my entire life who killed himself the same way as your friend for a different reason. You may want to consider all these experiences as well.

I am fully aware that people kill themselves for other reasons. My uncle killed himself also. But to ignore THIS as another reason for someone to kill themselves is unfortunately sheer ignorance and the question is, are you just ignorant or being wilfully so? This is actually just avoiding the topic to others so lets stick to this topic shall we? I knew her very well and what her issues were and why she wanted to do it. There are many reasons why someone kills themselves. But this would get off the topic entirely and I will not be doing that today as that is an avoidance tactic and a shameful one at that. The question is however why would you want to be avoiding it and pointing to others when the topic at hand is about the homosexual community? Is it too harsh and uncomfortable topic or you do not know how else to respond to someone who has had experience close hand to what a destructive society can and does do to the psyche of those who do not shape up to what society thinks is "normal" and worthy of their acceptance? Stick to the topic otherwise it does appear you are trying to avoid it or if you rather avoid it, state as such instead of tiptoeing around it by pointing to other things. Do you have any clue what you have done which basically is "whataboutism" which is well known for avoiding what is uncomfortable and not facing and addressing actual problems and stating oh but what about this and that? Which is not facing anything really. To truly understand ONE issue you need to keep your focus on that ONE topic. Many people kill themselves. There are varying reasons why. We are discussing the very real reality of the human condition of homosexuals. A man your age should have far better attention than this.

I didn't ignore it as you say. I fully acknowledged that what happened to your friend had also happened to someone that I knew back in high school. I was aware of that happening with homosexuals long before you made me aware of what happened to your very close friend. As far as my so-called "whataboutism", what about it? I wasn't one of her parents. If I was one of her parents, she'd most likely still be alive. I hope that you don't make the mistake of thinking/believing that I'm incapable of being friendly with Homosexuals or respectful towards Homosexuals. Now, as far as I'm concerned, we are done with this topic. BTW, I also understand your obligation to defend the honor of your close and in a way defend her from a group of religious people/zealots that you detest and most likely view as being responsible for her death.

[pbrower2a]

It's really simple. As it is with people whose skin color, physiognomy, theology, national origin, handicap, social status, or gender -- respect the person whose sexual preference is different from yours by respecting that person for shared humanity instead of the obvious difference.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-11-2019, 10:38 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(10-11-2019, 08:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-11-2019, 03:11 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(10-11-2019, 01:49 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-11-2019, 12:10 AM)taramarie Wrote: Btw consider this before saying anything that one of my best friends ran away from home because her parents did not accept her being a lesbian. We lived right next door to each other for years and then one day I found an ambulance was dragging out her body and putting her in an ambulance. I knew she was depressed but had no idea she would do what she did. She gassed herself in her car and deliberately killed herself. For years I tried my best to be of support but in the end the lack of support and the shaming for just being who she was was too much for her. So do consider this before typing a response. I lost someone near and dear and have heard what it is like first hand and had to see her body taken away.

I knew a gal in high school who killed herself for the same reason as your friend. I knew a guy in high school who killed himself the same way as your friend but did it for a different reason. I now another guy (my best friends older brother) who I knew my entire life who killed himself the same way as your friend for a different reason. You may want to consider all these experiences as well.

I am fully aware that people kill themselves for other reasons. My uncle killed himself also. But to ignore THIS as another reason for someone to kill themselves is unfortunately sheer ignorance and the question is, are you just ignorant or being wilfully so? This is actually just avoiding the topic to others so lets stick to this topic shall we? I knew her very well and what her issues were and why she wanted to do it. There are many reasons why someone kills themselves. But this would get off the topic entirely and I will not be doing that today as that is an avoidance tactic and a shameful one at that. The question is however why would you want to be avoiding it and pointing to others when the topic at hand is about the homosexual community? Is it too harsh and uncomfortable topic or you do not know how else to respond to someone who has had experience close hand to what a destructive society can and does do to the psyche of those who do not shape up to what society thinks is "normal" and worthy of their acceptance? Stick to the topic otherwise it does appear you are trying to avoid it or if you rather avoid it, state as such instead of tiptoeing around it by pointing to other things. Do you have any clue what you have done which basically is "whataboutism" which is well known for avoiding what is uncomfortable and not facing and addressing actual problems and stating oh but what about this and that? Which is not facing anything really. To truly understand ONE issue you need to keep your focus on that ONE topic. Many people kill themselves. There are varying reasons why. We are discussing the very real reality of the human condition of homosexuals. A man your age should have far better attention than this.

I didn't ignore it as you say. I fully acknowledged that what happened to your friend had also happened to someone that I knew back in high school. I was aware of that happening with homosexuals long before you made me aware of what happened to your very close friend. As far as my so-called "whataboutism", what about it? I wasn't one of her parents. If I was one of her parents, she'd most likely still be alive. I hope that you don't make the mistake of thinking/believing that I'm incapable of being friendly with Homosexuals or respectful towards Homosexuals. Now, as far as I'm concerned, we are done with this topic. BTW, I also understand your obligation to defend the honor of your close and in a way defend her from a group of religious people/zealots that you detest and most likely view as being responsible for her death.

I do know they were responsible for her death given how she was acting and what she was saying just before her death. As we are done with the topic the only thing I will say in this case is respond to your whataboutism question. When one is talking about a topic, it is more productive to stick to it and not point to other cases by a similarity. In this case suicide from other cases where people take their life. Other reasons which were not sticking to the topic. When you do that of saying "what about them?" instead of focusing on one problem it tends to draw attention from a much needed issue to discuss which in the long run is not productive to teach people awareness and solutions to be found. Does not mean you but it is actually not productive for educating those who do not understand fully certain topics and wont be helpful for society in the long run if attention cannot be fully focused on at least one problem if attention is directed elsewhere because what about those people. In short, it is avoidant. I know fully well different reasons. I myself have contemplated suicide quite often and my uncle actually jumped a bridge a year ago. He died. We both have our different reasons. It all is very personal what reasons drive people to do it, but the underlying theme under it all is disconnection and hopelessness if you wanted to bring in the others as well as suicide for homosexuals. The difference being they have been cut out of society's acceptance and worse still for some, their own family and/or church for just being them. No matter what some may say people do need acceptance love and understanding and not isolation and being thrown out and outcast especially for developing minds of the young which I do know to a certain point hence my cptsd. Yes if you wish we can stop the topic now. I am relieved to know you are kind. It is hard to tell online.

You can continue speaking on the topic if you wish.

[pbrower2a]

(10-11-2019, 10:42 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(10-11-2019, 10:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: It's really simple. As it is with people whose skin color, physiognomy, theology, national origin, handicap, social status, or gender -- respect the person whose sexual preference is different from yours by respecting that person for shared humanity instead of the obvious difference.

Can this be said for political difference as well out of sheer curiousity and a tongue in cheek moment....otherwise I agree except for certain people like narcissists who make this VERY difficult. I have my future mother in law in mind. Yes she is an actual narcissist unfortunately who is obsessed with tight control over everyone. Can I respect that difference? Not to the point it destroys those around her. My philosophy is live and let live so long as you aren't harming others.

Narcissism is not a certifiable handicap. Narcissists typically see nothing wrong with themselves and do not change their ways unless they experience some trauma, usually economic. Narcissists are able to make others dependent upon them, putting those that they exploit in fear that exploitation and abuse offer some security. In short, there is some security in being overworked and underpaid in a job that few others want. (That is not quite true; people might be overworked and underpaid because the organization is failing and is losing such attractiveness as it had to people who might bring new competence and talent). 

Failed narcissists learn humility as a survival skill -- and such breaks their narcissism unless they have deeply-rooted anger. Successful narcissists tend to define themselves by their plush lives, their bureaucratic power, and the fear that they inculcate, so they can seem happy in the presence of much misery. 

I have been re-reading a book on criminals. Among criminals are many failed narcissists, people with inflated self-esteem devoid of any basis of legitimate achievement. Some feel entitled to sex with anyone that they want -- which of course makes them rapists. Some feel entitled to a Good Life that they have never earned, and they become thieves -- or they get involved in such an illicit activity as drug trafficking. Some take out their frustrations on vulnerable children or spouses. If they clean up their act a little and get a job, they might short-change or fleece customers or do employee theft. This book neglects criminals who have insinuated themselves into high levels of economic hierarchies who are capable of getting away with sexual harassment or who (remember Enron!) committed large-scale economic frauds. 

In recent years, the United States has endured a strong trend toward pure plutocracy in which most people are obliged to suffer for a tiny elite of rich and powerful people seemingly unaccountable to anyone. Seemingly. There was Jeffrey Epstein, and there is Donald Trump. We are in a Crisis Era, and this one seems so far to elevate the narcissist as much as the last one tore the narcissistic tendency down. If the Depression did not shake people of narcissism, then the Second World War did. We need to go to some basics -- do good for people, and you will do well... but do bad things to people and be ruined.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-11-2019, 10:42 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(10-11-2019, 10:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: It's really simple. As it is with people whose skin color, physiognomy, theology, national origin, handicap, social status, or gender -- respect the person whose sexual preference is different from yours by respecting that person for shared humanity instead of the obvious difference.

Can this be said for political difference as well out of sheer curiousity and a tongue in cheek moment....otherwise I agree except for certain people like narcissists who make this VERY difficult. I have my future mother in law in mind. Yes she is an actual narcissist unfortunately who is obsessed with tight control over everyone. Can I respect that difference? Not to the point it destroys those around her. My philosophy is live and let live so long as you aren't harming others.

I dunno, you have had the opportunity see the differences and exchanges between a modern day American Traditional Conservative and a group of foreign minded/ influences Progressives who just happen to live in America. My tongue and cheek response, it sure would be nice if there was a magical love potion or heavenly mist or a massive bong or opium pipe pumping out smoke but I don't think so. No, unfortunately, we are on the verge of going to war in the modern day era the good old fashioned American way. 

Yes, the Progressives are capable of shouting down a portion of a blue city or a federal freeway running through a blue city or instigating large scale rioting within blue areas or picking on/ smearing some subordinate public official and slowing down something/ temporally stopping something/ hampering something that's commonly viewed as important to our national interest, national security or common defense/national defense. As I've said, the progressives are in deep shit here and it's the Progressives who don't seem to get it, understand it, realize it or seem to care about it all at this point. Does your country have 60 some million people who are private people who are privately funded who own their own stuff who receive the least and require little as far as government support who pay the most as far as taxes who are politically connected to a national party known as the GOP/Republican that knows them and appreciates that about them and still honors an agreement made a few hundred that we refer to as our Constitution and honor the flag that we refer to as our flag. I'm helping you understand the true dynamics of American politics today.

In America, it's the Progressives and their supporters, the retired Democrat  loyalists and the retired Republican party loyalists ( the Republican loyalist of old are kind of split and feeling homeless at the moment) are the bulk of ones who participate in most poles which is why the poles are often skewed in favor of the Democrats. The bulk of the Republican base and the American public in general has other more important/pressing things to do with its time than answering phones and participating in polls.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-12-2019, 10:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: In recent years, the United States has endured a strong trend toward pure plutocracy in which most people are obliged to suffer for a tiny elite of rich and powerful people seemingly unaccountable to anyone. Seemingly. There was Jeffrey Epstein, and there is Donald Trump. We are in a Crisis Era, and this one seems so far to elevate the narcissist as much as the last one tore the narcissistic tendency down. If the Depression did not shake people of narcissism, then the Second World War did. We need to go to some basics -- do good for people, and you will do well... but do bad things to people and be ruined.

I agree. Now, how much of that plutocracy is liberal as you say and more enthused with funding their own pet projects abroad and more enthused with funding their political choice and more enthused with feeding their own precious ego's and more enthused drinking expensive wine and eating expensive food and seeking to again more attention to/for themselves or flying around the world at the taxpayers expense promoting their ideology and themselves to the children of those who are similar to them or promoting family members or close friends while being treated and served like kings and queens of old. PB, do you think I would cry, get upset or feel bad if an event similar to the French revolution took place in San Fransisco or California and Nancy Pelosi was placed on public trial and voted guilty and beheaded. Nope, I wouldn't be upset because that is what they do, what they teach by doing it and seem to be OK with it.

[pbrower2a]

(10-12-2019, 05:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-12-2019, 10:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: In recent years, the United States has endured a strong trend toward pure plutocracy in which most people are obliged to suffer for a tiny elite of rich and powerful people seemingly unaccountable to anyone. Seemingly. There was Jeffrey Epstein, and there is Donald Trump. We are in a Crisis Era, and this one seems so far to elevate the narcissist as much as the last one tore the narcissistic tendency down. If the Depression did not shake people of narcissism, then the Second World War did. We need to go to some basics -- do good for people, and you will do well... but do bad things to people and be ruined.

I agree. Now, how much of that plutocracy is liberal as you say and more enthused with funding their own pet projects abroad and more enthused with funding their political choice and more enthused with feeding their own precious ego's and more enthused drinking expensive wine and eating expensive food and seeking to again more attention to/for themselves or flying around the world at the taxpayers expense promoting their ideology and themselves to the children of those who are similar to them or promoting family members or close friends while being treated and served like kings and queens of old. PB, do you think I would cry, get upset or feel bad if an event similar to the French revolution took place in San Fransisco or California and Nancy Pelosi was placed on public trial and voted guilty and beheaded. Nope, I wouldn't be upset because that is what they do, what they teach by doing it and seem to be OK with it.

Plutocracy is illiberal and reactionary. It is democracy only for the asset owners -- which was so of feudal orders. The masses got no say in government. 

If you are talking about Congressional Representatives and US Senators taking taxpayer-paid visits to examine military, economic, and diplomatic realities... that seems necessary for the smooth functioning of the government. Jet travel in real terms is much less costly than sea travel in the old days. The tickets for a transcontinental flight are about the same in real costs as a as steamer travel, except that one does not have to spend as much money on food on the flight of much lesser time. 

The people most likely to be subjected to the guillotine or whatever its modern equivalent will be upper leaders deemed as criminals against humanity for ordering troops to fire upon peaceful protesters, followed by blatant exploiters who waxed fat off human suffering to support their sybaritic lifestyles or acted callously before the Revolution.

But before you speak of the French Revolution, know well that it occurred during a food shortage that followed a volcanic eruption in Iceland that exuded sulfur oxides that have an anti-greenhouse effect and fluorine compounds that harmed crop growth.      



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[Classic-Xer]

(10-12-2019, 05:34 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(10-12-2019, 05:00 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-11-2019, 10:42 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(10-11-2019, 10:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: It's really simple. As it is with people whose skin color, physiognomy, theology, national origin, handicap, social status, or gender -- respect the person whose sexual preference is different from yours by respecting that person for shared humanity instead of the obvious difference.

Can this be said for political difference as well out of sheer curiousity and a tongue in cheek moment....otherwise I agree except for certain people like narcissists who make this VERY difficult. I have my future mother in law in mind. Yes she is an actual narcissist unfortunately who is obsessed with tight control over everyone. Can I respect that difference? Not to the point it destroys those around her. My philosophy is live and let live so long as you aren't harming others.

I dunno, you have had the opportunity see the differences and exchanges between a modern day American Traditional Conservative and a group of foreign minded/ influences Progressives who just happen to live in America. My tongue and cheek response, it sure would be nice if there was a magical love potion or heavenly mist or a massive bong or opium pipe pumping out smoke but I don't think so. No, unfortunately, we are on the verge of going to war in the modern day era the good old fashioned American way. 

Yes, the Progressives are capable of shouting down a portion of a blue city or a federal freeway running through a blue city or instigating large scale rioting within blue areas or picking on/ smearing some subordinate public official and slowing down something/ temporally stopping something/ hampering something that's commonly viewed as important to our national interest, national security or common defense/national defense. As I've said, the progressives are in deep shit here and it's the Progressives who don't seem to get it, understand it, realize it or seem to care about it all at this point. Does your country have 60 some million people who are private people who are privately funded who own their own stuff who receive the least and require little  as far as government support who  pay the most as far as taxes who are politically connected to a national party known as the GOP/Republican   that knows them and appreciates that about  them and still honors an agreement made a few hundred that we refer to as our Constitution and honor the flag that we refer to as our flag. I'm helping you understand the true dynamics of American politics today.  

In America, it's the Progressives and their supporters, the retired Democrat  loyalists and the retired Republican party loyalists ( the Republican loyalist of old are kind of  split and feeling homeless at the moment) are the bulk of  ones who participate in most poles which is why the poles are often skewed in favor of the Democrats. The bulk of the Republican base and the American public in general has other more important/pressing things to do with its time than answering phones and participating in  polls.

Agree as I figured lets turn that response around by Paul B and make that interesting question in tongue in cheek because it was a cheeky thing to say, however its quite a reflective one these days from what I see goes on and it is loud enough for foreigners to hear and see it. I do agree with you that it will get worse. I believe USA will recover. But it may look quite different to how it was, naturally. 

I live on an island among a set of islands in the south pacific ocean. I believe we have around 4 million last I checked. May be approaching 5 million at best currently. But this you know. Soon I will be in Slovakia, in a couple months time once my ankle has fully recovered (recent surgery). So that will be an interesting difference for me being in Europe around far more people. Well as for what you mentioned however, with the RW govt it was those who are the most vulnerable who were having a variety of important things taken from them that help make life easier for them. With the left wing here they gave back the support for the most vulnerable and by that I mean for kids and for the elderly and to a certain degree stop demonizing those who need the help financially and by that I mean need it. Those like myself who snapped their ankle in half and needed help as I couldn't do my job as I needed surgery and had to stop working. Also help for those with mental health care. The RW shut down funding for those who needed mental healthcare so they literally closed down those areas in the hospitals here. My mother works in a hospital so I know all about it. So, here, the RW from what I have observed, take from the most vulnerable and give to the rich who are their voters, and the left wing who I have observed focus on giving it back to the most vulnerable who are their voters. They work with who their voters are here basically. 

" Does your country have 60 some million people who are private people who are privately funded who own their own stuff who receive the least and require little  as far as government support who  pay the most as far as taxes"

How does that work? That is very odd if true. 

It's true. Well, it works by defying conventional wisdom and raising national debt levels. Who is doing that? The Progressives, the Democrats and small group of Republicans in Washington that most of their base don't place much value on these days. How is that possible? The 60 some million knows itself, knows its countrymen, knows its system, knows its capabilities, knows it has a viable Constitution, knows it has an economic system that works for them, an army to call upon, an armed citizenship and the ability to simply repeat history and accomplish what has already been done in the past. The big hang up back then was the issue of slavery and the fact that our founding fathers were establishing and laying the foundation for a new nation unlike any other nation before from scratch.

[Eric the Green]

(10-12-2019, 05:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-12-2019, 10:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: In recent years, the United States has endured a strong trend toward pure plutocracy in which most people are obliged to suffer for a tiny elite of rich and powerful people seemingly unaccountable to anyone. Seemingly. There was Jeffrey Epstein, and there is Donald Trump. We are in a Crisis Era, and this one seems so far to elevate the narcissist as much as the last one tore the narcissistic tendency down. If the Depression did not shake people of narcissism, then the Second World War did. We need to go to some basics -- do good for people, and you will do well... but do bad things to people and be ruined.

I agree. Now, how much of that plutocracy is liberal as you say and more enthused with funding their own pet projects abroad and more enthused with funding their political choice and more enthused with feeding their own precious ego's and more enthused drinking expensive wine and eating expensive food and seeking to again more attention to/for themselves or flying around the world at the taxpayers expense promoting their ideology and themselves to the children of those who are similar to them or promoting family members or close friends while being treated and served like kings and queens of old. PB, do you think I would cry, get upset or feel bad if an event similar to the French revolution took place in San Fransisco or California and Nancy Pelosi was placed on public trial and voted guilty and beheaded. Nope, I wouldn't be upset because that is what they do, what they teach by doing it and seem to be OK with it.

It is the people you support and vote for who are the plutocratic elite, not the people liberals like me vote for and support.

Your anti-tax, anti-welfare, pro-gun ideology enables the plutocrats to have lower taxes, fewer regulations, less government; and this enables them to pile up riches and build the oligarchy.

[Eric the Green]

(10-10-2019, 12:45 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-09-2019, 11:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-09-2019, 01:01 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The Republican Party is responsible for the preservation of the Trump Presidency. It can save him through some perfunctory dismissal of articles of impeachment, but if it does so it may be on the way to a long time in the political wilderness, if not oblivion.

I think it may be oblivion, because there is only one person who has the charisma to be a Republican Obama or even a Republican Bill Clinton. That one person is his daughter Ivanka. But she is not even a Republican, and could go down the dumps with her daddy. And she will have to find a way to prove herself as a presidential public figure somehow. Absent that, there's no other potential candidate who can win the presidential election and thus keep the Republicans in the Senate and in the corporate boardrooms and elsewhere in control of the country.

That's not really true.  I can think of one Republican that still has a great reputation and might, in fact, run in 2020 if Mafia Don is impeached and thrown out of office: Nikki Haley.  She's smart, personable and has a pretty solid track record in South Carolina and the UN.

Well, I can see how it might seem so. But according to my cosmic horoscope scoring system, her score is abysmal. And that goes for most of the others who might be considered today. No, Republicans are joined at the hip with Mafia Don and are stuck with him, at least until daughter Ivanka is ready-- but she isn't even a Republican!

Some of the Democratic candidates seemed attractive and had good records too. Beto was some kind of rock star. But when things got going, he fell behind. Now his polls are under 2%. He lived up to his lousy score after all. Harris is fading too. It looked like she had a following, but it's down to 4% now. Her abysmal score is catching up with her too.

Warren has a mediocre score, so the question now is whether her big bump is temporary, and whether she can beat my expectations. I can't predict her to win if she is nominated. I think only Biden and Sanders have a chance if Trump keeps his 43% and his job and runs again. But if by some miracle Pence is the Republican candidate in 2020, then maybe the wooden indian can beat the wooden stick.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-12-2019, 08:13 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Plutocracy is illiberal and reactionary. It is democracy only for the asset owners -- which was so of feudal orders. The masses got no say in government. 

If you are talking about Congressional Representatives and US Senators taking taxpayer-paid visits to examine military, economic, and diplomatic realities... that seems necessary for the smooth functioning of the government. Jet travel in real terms is much less costly than sea travel in the old days. The tickets for a transcontinental flight are about the same in real costs as a as steamer travel, except that one does not have to spend as much money on food on the flight of much lesser time. 

The people most likely to be subjected to the guillotine or whatever its modern equivalent will be upper leaders deemed as criminals against humanity for ordering troops to fire upon peaceful protesters, followed by blatant exploiters who waxed fat off human suffering to support their sybaritic lifestyles or acted callously before the Revolution.

But before you speak of the French Revolution, know well that it occurred during a food shortage that followed a volcanic eruption in Iceland that exuded sulfur oxides that have an anti-greenhouse effect and fluorine compounds that harmed crop growth.      



[url=http://www.jamescamerononline.com/TitanicFAQ.htm#targetText=The%20first%20class%20tickets%20ranged,(%24170%20%2D%20%C2%A3460).][/url]

I don't see your right to vote being taken away any time soon. Yes, it's very difficult to convince people who own their own stuff and pay for their own stuff to also pay for you and pay for your stuff too. 

I was talking about a blue plutocrat who happens to be a US congresswoman who has the luxury of being able to fly to places and stay at places for free while there on official business and do other things as mentioned above relating to other plutocrats as long as it can be viewed or explained or generally accepted as associated with official business too.

Yes, jet travel is much cheaper and much faster than boat travel. It's to bad we're going to have to get rid of them and resort to boat travel powered by wind again. The people who get guillotined will be whoever the propagandists are paid to get rid of for them. As far as I know, the court of public opinion does whatever the crowd says and crowd believes whatever the propagandists want it to believe. This is the liberal way based on everything that I've seen so far.

[Eric the Green]

(10-11-2019, 02:44 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-11-2019, 09:44 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-10-2019, 03:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I didn't use Bill as an excuse to shift blame away from Trump. I used Bill and what Bill obviously did while President in order to actually be impeached. Bill basically lied under oath which is a criminal offense as well as an impeachable offense.

FYI: what you wrote above is the very definition of blame-shifting.

Classic-Xer Wrote:As I said, it is pretty common for American presidents to use their power and influence to sway foreign leaders for the sake of their own interests or national interests.

There is a vast difference between the national interest and one's personal interest.  Again: blame-shifting.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I assume that a full scale investigation into that sort of thing or worse would result in many Democratic officials going to prison or terminated careers. Why would you take offense to my negative/ not so pleasant view of Obama and the slimy term used to describe him? I've often said that I wouldn't pass on an opportunity to have a man to man talk with him about issues that are more relevant to him and his side than they are to those on the other side.

What did Obama do that was slimy?  He made mistakes as they all do, but I can't see any slime anywhere.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I don't take offense to the your negative view of Trump or the nasty thing that you and others often say about him or the nasty things that you and others often accuse him of supporting or being directly involved with promoting like fascism or racism and whatever else works with those who are stuck on the other side.

He has done nothing right from day one.  It's hard to make a list.  Let's take a few examples from foreign policy, since its the primary responsibility of the President:

1. He purposely failed to fill positions in the government, for reason that have proven nefarious on several know occasions.  
   
2. He's run a secret foreign policy with tyrants -- including secret meetings with Putin that weren't even witnessed by an American interpreter, and, on the one case one was, he seized the notes.
   
3. He's single handedly trashed the post-WWII relationships we've spent decades building with allies and neighbors.
   
4. Now, he's using extortion on a foreign government to get dirt, real or imagined - either is fine with him - on an opponent.
   

This could go on, but that's enough I think.  

Classic-Xer Wrote:Taramarie doesn't quite understand the dynamics of modern day America or American politics these days. Taramarie knows New Zealand and a few other countries that she has visited. Taramarie doesn't understand the difference between the Democratic voters these days or the difference between the Republican voters and the Democratic voters these days either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the European rifts of old like fascist vs socialist or communists and Protestants vs Catholics or Protestants and Catholics vs Pagans don't  largely apply to the vast majority of modern day American these days.

You think they don't?  Just because the wording is bit different doesn't make them different in kind.  Trump is playing Fascist dictator, or trying to.  If you missed it, do some reading on the 1930s in Europe, and how Fascism grew there.  It's so similar is scary.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I don't think she's alone because American blues don't seem to understand that either. Taramarie doesn't understand that the right to be a homosexual and the freedom to be homosexual  existed long before the right for them to be married and legally recognized as a couple.

The right to be openly gay is fairly recent.  In fact, there is a case before the SCOTUS where the Trump administration is arguing gays aren't protected in the workplace.  There isn't much freedom if you can't make a living.

Blaming me/Republicans for the mismanagement and incompetent leadership of some blue city or the mismanagement or incompetence related to some blue persons life or the act of some greedy/corrupt blue President in the past that results in millions of American job losses across an entire country are other clear examples of the blame shifting that blues do often as well. Blaming me for something you or some other blue obviously did or said and don't care to admit is wrong that directly offends, alienates or seriously pisses me or someone else off and millions of others is another clear example of blame shifting that blues tended to do often but not as often these days. Blaming me for the Republican president who was elected while I was a freshman in high school is another clear example of blue blame shifting that's STILL going on.

Dude, I look at the blues and look at the list of all the blues wants and needs pertaining to themselves. I look at the blue system of justice as its often being used on TV today. I look at the blue media system that's in place and I look at how its being used by the Progressives today. I look at the blue ideology and I see the obvious similarity to those of Eastern Europe at one time and a significant portion of Asia today. I don't need to read a book to see a fascist, socialist or communist system or a fascist, socialist or communist mass communication system that's in place and so forth. Heck, all that's missing right now is an army and a massive government security apparatus with the power to do anything that it needs to remain in power and survive. Right now, all the Progressives have to work with is everything that's needed to attempt  winning American hearts and minds and I'd say that they reached they're peak a decade ago.

It's amazing how you guys are still red baiting (even though metaphorically you guys are the reds now). You are still fighting against communism. Isn't that something of a dead horse now? What we've got in much of Asia now is state capitalism.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-12-2019, 09:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-12-2019, 05:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-12-2019, 10:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: In recent years, the United States has endured a strong trend toward pure plutocracy in which most people are obliged to suffer for a tiny elite of rich and powerful people seemingly unaccountable to anyone. Seemingly. There was Jeffrey Epstein, and there is Donald Trump. We are in a Crisis Era, and this one seems so far to elevate the narcissist as much as the last one tore the narcissistic tendency down. If the Depression did not shake people of narcissism, then the Second World War did. We need to go to some basics -- do good for people, and you will do well... but do bad things to people and be ruined.

I agree. Now, how much of that plutocracy is liberal as you say and more enthused with funding their own pet projects abroad and more enthused with funding their political choice and more enthused with feeding their own precious ego's and more enthused drinking expensive wine and eating expensive food and seeking to again more attention to/for themselves or flying around the world at the taxpayers expense promoting their ideology and themselves to the children of those who are similar to them or promoting family members or close friends while being treated and served like kings and queens of old. PB, do you think I would cry, get upset or feel bad if an event similar to the French revolution took place in San Fransisco or California and Nancy Pelosi was placed on public trial and voted guilty and beheaded. Nope, I wouldn't be upset because that is what they do, what they teach by doing it and seem to be OK with it.

It is the people you support and vote for who are the plutocratic elite, not the people liberals like me vote for and support.

Your anti-tax, anti-welfare, pro-gun ideology enables the plutocrats to have lower taxes, fewer regulations, less government; and this enables them to pile up riches and build the oligarchy.

Dude, the plutocratic elites are the ones financially backing you guys now. Dude, NIKE or any other flashy brand has more sway over blues than reds. Where the fuck do you think the billions being spent to elect ho de do liberal Democrats is coming from? Hint: it's not falling from the sky or falling off tree branches. It's coming from plutocrats. You have a blue plutocrat representing a Republican district. Do you know how a blue plutocrat runs their business? The blue plutocrat pays their employees minimum wage, skirts the laws by only allowing their people to work part time or slightly below legal full time hours and relies upon federal/state programs to take care of the rest for them. So, you go ahead point fingers at me while I laugh at you for not having an f-n clue as to what is going on here.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-12-2019, 10:20 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(10-12-2019, 09:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-12-2019, 05:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-12-2019, 10:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: In recent years, the United States has endured a strong trend toward pure plutocracy in which most people are obliged to suffer for a tiny elite of rich and powerful people seemingly unaccountable to anyone. Seemingly. There was Jeffrey Epstein, and there is Donald Trump. We are in a Crisis Era, and this one seems so far to elevate the narcissist as much as the last one tore the narcissistic tendency down. If the Depression did not shake people of narcissism, then the Second World War did. We need to go to some basics -- do good for people, and you will do well... but do bad things to people and be ruined.

I agree. Now, how much of that plutocracy is liberal as you say and more enthused with funding their own pet projects abroad and more enthused with funding their political choice and more enthused with feeding their own precious ego's and more enthused drinking expensive wine and eating expensive food and seeking to again more attention to/for themselves or flying around the world at the taxpayers expense promoting their ideology and themselves to the children of those who are similar to them or promoting family members or close friends while being treated and served like kings and queens of old. PB, do you think I would cry, get upset or feel bad if an event similar to the French revolution took place in San Fransisco or California and Nancy Pelosi was placed on public trial and voted guilty and beheaded. Nope, I wouldn't be upset because that is what they do, what they teach by doing it and seem to be OK with it.

It is the people you support and vote for who are the plutocratic elite, not the people liberals like me vote for and support.

Your anti-tax, anti-welfare, pro-gun ideology enables the plutocrats to have lower taxes, fewer regulations, less government; and this enables them to pile up riches and build the oligarchy.

Nothing wrong with guns for self defence. Don't like certain types being available, but the main thing is loads of sensible regulations and teaching how to own one sensibly and do checks on the person every year or so. My partner lives in Slovakia where I will be going in a couple months time. Apparently they also have guns on them unlike in my country but they are well trained and if something happens like an armed robbery they by law are legally allowed to shoot the armed robbers. He says this actually deters people from committing such crimes as who wants to be shot lol. Admittedly I was shocked because I do live in a country where it is illegal to carry guns. Not security, police don't carry them on them nor civilians. Americans could make a case that if something were to happen they could kill many. Like in the mosque shootings. But it is also not in the culture here. Generally it is peace loving. However that said, it is a different system I will be going into in Slovakia and if it works, it works right. Main thing is these people can defend themselves and others around them and have been taught how to properly use a gun by the sounds of things. So what is the issue with guns? It is rather the supposed lack of wise regulations that is one let down in your country so any nut can easily access one.

Well, the issue is the amount of people and the size of the country. How do you keep track of multiple millions of people who already own guns and the millions more buying and selling new guns and prevent a few of them from murdering others with them? Keep in mind, this is going on every day in all fifty states. Oh, that's just the legal gun market. We also have an illegal gun market that the authorities are already working to keep some measure of legal control over too. Also, our government did what your country did with mental health funding around 50 years ago. In my opinion, the issue is more of a mental health issue than a legal gun issue. If we had the issue that liberals try make it out to be, we would have dead bodies laying all over the place. The vast majority of Americans don't live in an area infested with street gangs and all sorts of other criminals.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-12-2019, 10:02 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's amazing how you guys are still red baiting (even though metaphorically you guys are the reds now). You are still fighting against communism. Isn't that something of a dead horse now? What we've got in much of Asia now is state capitalism.

What do you expect, you guys are still promoting socialism/socialist ideology. You don't look/act like a dead horse.

[Ragnarök_62]

(10-13-2019, 10:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-12-2019, 10:02 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's amazing how you guys are still red baiting (even though metaphorically you guys are the reds now). You are still fighting against communism. Isn't that something of a dead horse now? What we've got in much of Asia now is state capitalism.

What do you expect, you guys are still promoting socialism/socialist ideology. You don't look/act like a dead horse.

Uh, I like some "socialist" stuff like roads, post office, cops, firemen, rules to keep Big Oil from violating my property rights (my body), and our private healthcare system is broken. I'll take Medicare now, which really should begin at age 0 instead of 65. Oh, yeah, I want my Social Security, cause I don't know how old I'll to be.

So, what do the Republicans have on offer?