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A Virus Lie?
#21
The last big economic meltdown (2007-2009 was certifiably the worst since the Great Depression) ended with Corporate America prevailing and pushing America into the 3T ways that got America into the mess, ensuring that nothing happened except that a few shysters lost their assets or went to prison. The political choices that Corporate America foisted through front groups such as FreedomWorks!, Citizens for Growth, Americans for Prosperity, and the like stood for the economic hierarchy that had prevailed before -- typical 3T ideology. Nothing matters except profits and indulgence for elites.

We are back to much the same. But this time the President is a consort of overt organized crime. If Dubya made his money honorably, we can't be so sure about Trump. If Dubya had limitations, even he knew when he had run out of credibility and had to turn to the experts. Donald Trump is his own expert. Will the overall results be different?

The DJIA is off 31.72% from its all-time high, which so far isn't as nasty as the "Four Bad Bears" of 1929, 1973, 2000, and 2007. But it is so far an ominous start. All four "Bad Bears" before this one -- and we do not know where this one stops -- led to recessions or the Great Depression.

Any recession from this downturn will not end before the November election.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#22
If anyone wants to know what "doing too little" means, then consider Iran, which has been hit extremely hard:


Quote:DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) — Appearing before the cameras coughing and sweating profusely, the man leading Iran’s response to the new coronavirus outbreak promised it was of no danger to his country.

“Quarantines belong to the Stone Age,” Iraj Harirchi insisted.

A day later, he himself would be in quarantine from the virus.

Harirchi’s story is a microcosm of what has happened in Iran amid the coronavirus pandemic. Roughly nine out of 10 cases in the Middle East come from the Islamic Republic, which has reported over 16,000 people infected and at least 988 deaths amid fears that cases may still be underreported. While most people who are infected recover, the virus spreads rapidly and can kill the elderly and those with breathing problems or other underlying illnesses.

Days of denials gave the virus time to spread in Iran as the country marked the 41st anniversary of its 1979 Islamic Revolution with mass demonstrations and then held a parliamentary election in which authorities desperately sought to boost turnout.

Although Iran has one of the Mideast’s best medical services, its hospitals appear to be overwhelmed and authorities have asked for 172 million masks from abroad. It also has asked the International Monetary Fund for $5 billion, the first such loan for Iran since 1962.


https://apnews.com/a385bc3ccad75f990dff96f664dd508c
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#23
(03-16-2020, 11:22 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The corona crisis is not a lie, because this virus spreads easily and fast, and people can see that. And it kills a lot of people, even though the vast majority have mild symptoms. And the only way to stop it is to isolate ourselves. That means closing everything down for a few weeks. We have no other recourse.

What you just said is 100% conglomerate from all news outlets right now.

You did not just say that.  That's you, a sponge, and what you heard elsewhere.  You aren't a human being when you said that, you're a mini news outlet.

Anyone from planet Nebuchadnezzar would say that if having landed 2 hours ago after reading any newspaper anywhere or a TV station.

Ppl here want to talk about "facts" and "reality" that just means "What I Know To Be True" which is only another way of saying

my view, my perspective

You aren't a doctor or a health worker on-the-scene. You are a participant in only chattering what "knowledge" you have gleaned from sitting around the hearth.

Do you know one person with the Virus?  If not, how is it you came to the conclusion

"this virus spreads easily and fast, and people can see that. And it kills a lot of people, even though the vast majority have mild symptoms. And the only way to stop it is to isolate ourselves"
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#24
(03-17-2020, 03:47 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Do you know one person with the Virus?  If not, how is it you came to the conclusion

He probably checked against reality. I know this seems like a radical idea...

My sister reacted to a summary of the site. "Your token conservative has his head in the sand."
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#25
(03-17-2020, 06:00 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(03-17-2020, 03:47 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Do you know one person with the Virus?  If not, how is it you came to the conclusion

He probably checked against reality.  I know this seems like a radical idea...

My sister reacted to a summary of the site.   "Your token conservative has his head in the sand."

If the person has not dealt personally with the outbreak or contagion, if they have not personally been informed by what is happening, you're saying it is "reality" when they preach ABOUT it.

It's no different than the conservative person who follows the law of moses.  Then, they tell you about your love for shellsifh and say you are "not with reality" that you offend god.

They had no personal contact with moses.  They know nothing about the origin of the thing they are preaching about. But they are so completely sure you are insane for pissing off god.

You cannot see yourself on the other side of the reflection. 

We might all die for that.

Both of you are determined to rip the house down with all the children inside.

Get familiar with the parable of Jacob and Esau who are brothers, yet historically destroy each other continually.  It's the same Strauss and Howe archetype of the Prophet but you can't hear it.  Which is fine, but not when you hoard positions of such great responsibility and use it without morality.
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#26
(03-17-2020, 07:22 PM)TheNomad Wrote: If the person has not dealt personally with the outbreak or contagion, if they have not personally been informed by what is happening, you're saying it is "reality" when they preach ABOUT it.

Back in my days at college, I took a philosophy course that featured Bishop Berkeley.  One of his teachings was that elections, or anything else that you have not directly experienced with your senses, do not exist.  At the time I was an electronic engineering major, and had been studying electrons for the last four plus years.  I was writing a paper on semiconductor lasers, how semiconductors could be doped to create an electrical voltage difference that directly effects the wavelength of the light that is generated.

I came to the conclusion that the philosophy professor had not experienced all of the evidence, and did not know what he was talking about.  He hadn’t a clue about how to build a radio, or a semiconductor laser.  Should the philosophy department dictate to the engineering department how they should teach?  Are my visits to the library under the MIT Great Dome to read journals on electricity and lasers be considered futile?

I’m afraid the opinion of the argument that you should not believe in anything you haven’t experienced with your own senses was pretty much set in that time.  I learned enough about Bishop Berkeley's theories to feed the professor what he expected to hear and pass the test at the end of the quarter, but did not try in earnest to correct his ignorance.

We might die for passing on false information, but censorship and ignorance are not the answer either.  There are certain scientific sources of information that one can and does trust.  If so, you can state your source and pass on the information.  There are other sources of guidance which are biased, like Trump, Fox News and Twitter.  I don’t trust them, but people with different world views might.  You just have to correct them as you can with the science.

I note on another thread that a good response to your censorship rant was to provide links to the CDC and WebMD.  Looks good to me.
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#27
We know all too little about this virus. What we know will not itself overcome the virus. We might protect ourselves and some vulnerable people.

If anything most of us are keeping cool heads about this. So far the people who trivialize the danger seem most vulnerable.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#28
(03-17-2020, 09:58 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: We know all too little about this virus. What we know will not itself overcome the virus.  We might protect ourselves and some vulnerable people.

If anything most of us are keeping cool heads about this. So far the people who trivialize the danger seem most vulnerable.

The coastal press does seem to be profiting by sensationalizing.  Whether profiting from danger or seeking advantage in pushing a political agenda, you can't say the press is pure.  Still, it is probably healthier not to be ignorant, to understand what is going on.  You can ask what motives may exist, and whether what is said is true.  One can seek out reputable sources, and verify anything you doubt.  Certainly there is cause for alarmism.  There is cause to protect people by speaking truth.  There is no cause to favor ignorance and censorship.
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#29
(03-17-2020, 10:20 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(03-17-2020, 09:58 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: We know all too little about this virus. What we know will not itself overcome the virus.  We might protect ourselves and some vulnerable people.

If anything most of us are keeping cool heads about this. So far the people who trivialize the danger seem most vulnerable.

The coastal press does seem to be profiting by sensationalizing.  Whether profiting from danger or seeking advantage in pushing a political agenda, you can't say the press is pure.  Still, it is probably healthier not to be ignorant, to understand what is going on.  You can ask what motives may exist, and whether what is said is true.  One can seek out reputable sources, and verify anything you doubt.  Certainly there is cause for alarmism.  There is cause to protect people by speaking truth.  There is no cause to favor ignorance and censorship.

The worst aspect of this disease is the inherent degree of uncertainty.  Is it highly transmissible by touch? At present, the opinion seems to be yes, but only hard surfaces.  That may change.  Should we separate by 1 meter or two (two seems to be the opinion de jure).  We don't even know the incubation period (it may vary), or why some people have severe symptoms and others have little to nothing.  All we do know is the experience of a few countries, and that varies a lot too.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#30
(03-17-2020, 07:22 PM)TheNomad Wrote:
(03-17-2020, 06:00 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(03-17-2020, 03:47 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Do you know one person with the Virus?  If not, how is it you came to the conclusion

He probably checked against reality.  I know this seems like a radical idea...

My sister reacted to a summary of the site.   "Your token conservative has his head in the sand."

If the person has not dealt personally with the outbreak or contagion, if they have not personally been informed by what is happening, you're saying it is "reality" when they preach ABOUT it.
...
There are other ways to gain knowledge than personal experience. This is why humans have been writing stuff down for, well, a few years now, to pass knowledge on. Sure some sources are better than others (see Encyclopedia Britannica vs National Enquirer), but the concept that you can only gain knowledge from personal experience is wrong.
"But there's a difference between error and dishonesty, and it's not a trivial difference." - Ben Greenman
"Relax, it'll be all right, and by that I mean it will first get worse."
"How was I supposed to know that there'd be consequences for my actions?" - Gina Linetti
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