How conservative are Homelanders really?

[Eric the Green]

(04-18-2020, 04:44 PM)gabrielle Wrote:

(04-18-2020, 01:52 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(04-15-2020, 04:49 PM)Ghost Wrote:

(04-15-2020, 11:32 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: The alt-right is mostly a gen X thing. You overestimate the influence of certain online contrarians. See some of comments by Camz.

Artists are not supposed to rebel until they have a midlife crisis  

What worries me more is the growing abandonment of civilized values in favour of barbarism, both on the right and the left. Identity politics replaces individual responsibility. Futurist aims are considered unfashionable and nostalgia is growing.

I think it seems more like a Gen X and older Millennial thing.

The only Gen Zers I could think of that are alt-right are Nick Fuentes, Thomas Rousseau, Jaden McNeil (one of Fuentes' groupies), Naomi Seibt (probably), and some of those mass shooters from last year like John Earnest.

I'm not including those from the r/GenZ brigade from last year and those from r/zoomerright because I am not really sure what their ages are.

I agree with your last paragraph for sure.

The alt right was largely originally a boomer-silent thing. Hannity and the other Fox News idiots, Drudge, the founders of Breitbart, Steve Bannon, Roger Stone, Jared Taylor, Roger Ailes, are older than Gen X. Gen X members have stoked the movement further led by Richard Spencer who apparently coined the term. I think to call it a phenomenon of video games trivializes the movement and its danger.

Why stop with Boomers and Silents?  Right wing extremism has been around in America for a very long time.  The alt-right is a late Gen X/early Millennial form of it.  The term "alt-right" is Gen X in style, borrowing as it does from terms like "alternative rock" and "alt-country" (I suppose Spencer was trying to cast his message of hate as some kind of heroic fight against the mainstream.)

Gen X is also responsible for antifa, which rose in response to the neo-Nazi skinheads of the 80s.

I suppose the term "alt" came from computer culture in the 80s and 90s relating to newsgroups. But the whole boomer-led Breitbart thing was a major force.

[Isoko]

Camz,

I think you will find that your future children will be more conservative then you are. Excess consumption always leads to excess liberalism but when life becomes more austere, the next generation usually becomes more conservative in their outlook on life.

The next idealists I think will be all about creating a new economy and getting out into nature and farming. Neo Agriculture I think is going to be the new future for the masses and with it will come a desire to have a family younger and bigger. Maybe going back to church or something could be a theme too as awakenings always lead to a religious revival.

As for Russia, I expect my future kids to grow up to be little patriots. The current generation in Russia is being raised to be patriotic and proud of their country. That is the legacy of Putinism and it will affect the kids growing up. So where as your kids will be idealists, mine will be more civic minded.

[Blazkovitz]

(04-21-2020, 08:56 AM)Camz Wrote: I'm worried about what older people say about new kids being bad parents in the future because we're phone-addicts is true.

It's very likely. The neo-Missionaries and neo-Lost will have much (too much) freedom because their parents will be too busy online.

Isoko Wrote:The next idealists I think will be all about creating a new economy and getting out into nature and farming. Neo Agriculture I think is going to be the new future for the masses and with it will come a desire to have a family younger and bigger. Maybe going back to church or something could be a theme too as awakenings always lead to a religious revival.

If the neo-Missionaries want to have big families, it'll come during the 3T. Parenthood is never cool during the 2T. Of course they will want to pretend their kids form neo-Lost naughtiness, which might include biotechnological body modification or orgiastic VR experiences.

[Isoko]

Blazkovitz,

The big culture war coming this century is going to be about body modifications and other technological choices (GM babies, VR, etc) Vs a revived conservative culture that favours nature and family values. I expect the naturalists to win due to potential higher birth rates. Community building I think will be a big thing too. I wouldn't be surprised if some countries that are more conservative out right ban certain technologies as being too unnatural.

As for parent hood, you will be surprised. People used to have their kids young and even in Russia during this 2T, young people still expect to get married and have children young.

[Blazkovitz]

(04-22-2020, 07:24 AM)Isoko Wrote: Blazkovitz,

The big culture war coming this century is going to be about body modifications and other technological choices (GM babies, VR, etc) Vs a revived conservative culture that favours nature and family values. I expect the naturalists to win due to potential higher birth rates.

This is to assume that people "inherit" their views on certain issues which is not the case. Every Christian had pagan ancestors. Every atheist had both pagan and Christian ancestors. Every free love enthusiast had ancestors who believed in sanctity of marriage. So we're always betraying our ancestors!

Personally, I never agreed with my father on many things and if a view was too similar to my father's ideas that was enough to reject it. (generally, his mindset was quite similar to yours)

Parenthood becoming cool during a 2T? Possible if it's a "civic awakening" like Solidarity in Poland or the Arab Spring rather than a proper Romantic one.

If there are attempts to ban transhumanism, it will motivate the transhumanists to depart for outer space!

[Isoko]

(04-22-2020, 07:40 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote:

(04-22-2020, 07:24 AM)Isoko Wrote: Blazkovitz,

The big culture war coming this century is going to be about body modifications and other technological choices (GM babies, VR, etc) Vs a revived conservative culture that favours nature and family values. I expect the naturalists to win due to potential higher birth rates.

This is to assume that people "inherit" their views on certain issues which is not the case. Every Christian had pagan ancestors. Every atheist had both pagan and Christian ancestors. Every free love enthusiast had ancestors who believed in sanctity of marriage. So we're always betraying our ancestors!

Personally, I never agreed with my father on many things and if a view was too similar to my father's ideas that was enough to reject it. (generally, his mindset was quite similar to yours)

Parenthood becoming cool during a 2T? Possible if it's a "civic awakening" like Solidarity in Poland or the Arab Spring rather than a proper Romantic one.

If there are attempts to ban transhumanism, it will motivate the transhumanists to depart for outer space!

To be honest, I tend to find that most people do inherit their views from their parents until a huge transformation takes place. All those Pagans remained Pagans until Christianity came along. All those Christians remained Christians, etc. 

Rebellion is not a common  thing entirely throughout turnings and I would argue that the 1960s was a rather unique event that won't be repeated for a long time to come.

Coming back to Russia, rebellion within generations is actually unheard of. People usually stick to the same principles as their parents. When it comes to rebellion in Russia, it is usually all generations involved and it is always to do with economic concerns. To get actual rebellion amongst your parents is actually quite rare...

As for transhumanism, I think that the huge cultural fears are going to be it will lead the world down some kind of technological Sodom and Gomorrah and this is why a lot of these conservative areas are going to put on the breaks eventually. I think if it gets to the point it is radically changing Humanity, I think it will unnerve a lot of people, to be honest.

Maybe people will learn to love the change? I am not sure. But all I know is you will probably end up having two camps of people split and eventually the conservatives usually win out because they out produce the liberal faction.

[Tim Randal Walker]

Isoko, it has been commented that in the USA, for example, has a double rhythm in its sequence of Awakenings.

That is, Awakenings alternate between the Dionysus (God centered) and Apollo (man centered) types..

The Boom Awakening would be an example of the Dionysus. These 2Ts tend to create a huge upheaval in the culture, and push the boundries of spirituality/religion. The Boom Awakening led to a culture war.

The Apollo type is more oriented towards ideology. These 2Ts tend to emphasize the political system, or the economic system, or perhaps both. The subsequent 4Ts tend to see upheavals in political or economic arrangements.The Missionary Awakening was the last Apollo 2T in the USA.

The double rhythm suggests that the next American 2T will be of the Apollo type. This 2T will likely start a few decades from now. With the next Dionysus 2T starting well into the 22nd century.

[Isoko]

(04-22-2020, 09:36 AM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Isoko, it has been commented that in the USA, for example, has a double rhythm in its sequence of Awakenings.

That is, Awakenings alternate between the Dionysus (God centered) and Apollo (man centered) types..

The Boom Awakening would be an example of the Dionysus.  These 2Ts tend to create a huge upheaval in the culture, and push the boundries of spirituality/religion.  The Boom Awakening led to a culture war.

The Apollo type is more oriented towards ideology.  These 2Ts tend to emphasize the political system, or the economic system, or perhaps both.  The subsequent 4Ts tend to see upheavals in political or economic arrangements.The Missionary Awakening was the last Apollo 2T in the USA.

The double rhythm suggests that the next American 2T will be of the Apollo type.  This 2T will likely start a few decades from now.  With the next Dionysus 2T starting well into the 22nd century.

Hi Tim,

When it comes to America, this is quite a good explanation and seems to fit with the nature of the land. I agree that the country does have two Awakening periods although I am sceptical of the next Awakening will be an Apollo type as I tend to view the 1960s as more Apollo due to the sex, drugs and rock and roll phenomenon. 

I always thought the next Awakening there would be more Dionysus as with the coming transhumanism culture, more people are going to start retreating into their churches in order to make sense of it all. So it is a good question.

But one thing about America and that is it is a land that always pushes the boundaries, something that other countries do not.

[Tim Randal Walker]

Yes, Isoko, perhaps Transhumanism will be a theme of the next 2T.

Other possible themes include political and/or economic systems.

As for spirituality, at the minimum we might see a religious revival based on traditional religion. We certainly saw this during the Boom Awakening, and during previous 2Ts.

[Tim Randal Walker]

I would also consider the intensities of turnings.

As I have mentioned before, I suspect that for the USA the next 1T will, at best, be a weak 1T. I don't know of any particular reason to think that it will feel like a "High".

If the next 1T should play out as a weak one, could the next 2T play out as lower intensity, as compared to the Boom Awakening?

From the paleo 4T site I recall mention of a British 2T that played out during the Missionary 2T in the USA. I don't recall much regarding the description (though I believe that feminism and socialism were issues), but I do recall getting the impression that this 2T was less intense than the Missionary Awakening.

[Tim Randal Walker]

My guess at a conceivable time line for the USA. This assumes that for the USA this 4T remains relatively mild. Also, note that Strauss and Howe anticipated a "Crisis of 2100".

A. Current 4T-Crisis of 2020.

B. Weak 1T.

C. (Mild?) 2T.

D. 3T.

E. Projected Crisis of 2100

F. 1T

G. 2T

One of my assumptions is that a weak 1T will mean that there is less for New Prophets to react against, compared to a "High" with highly hubristic Civics.

Another of my assumptions is that the human lifespan remains more or less the same. So the turnings beyond 2100 are ones I listed mechanically. By the early 22nd century I expect current generations to be nearly gone. Any of today's children who survive to that time will be extremely old. Like, super centarians.

I am not even going to try to guess what the themes will be for a 22ND century 2T. That time is too far out for me make informed predictions.

And really, trying to write about the early 22nd century seems like science fiction.

[Eric the Green]

(04-22-2020, 12:53 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: My guess at a conceivable time line for the USA.  This assumes that for the USA this 4T remains relatively mild.  Also, note  that Strauss and Howe anticipated a "Crisis of 2100".

A.  Current 4T-Crisis of 2020.

B.  Weak 1T.

C.  (Mild?) 2T.

D.  3T.

E.  Projected Crisis of 2100

F.  1T

G.  2T

One of my assumptions is that a weak 1T will mean that there is less for New Prophets to react against, compared to a "High" with highly hubristic Civics.

Another of my assumptions is that the human lifespan remains more or less the same.  So the turnings beyond 2100 are ones I listed mechanically.  By the early 22nd century I expect current generations to be nearly gone.  Any of today's children who survive to that time will be extremely old.  Like, super centarians.

I am not even going to try to guess what the themes will be for a 22ND  century 2T.  That time is too far out for me make informed predictions.

And really,  trying to write about the early 22nd century seems like science fiction.

The next 1T will be "weak" in the sense that there will be less consensus, and still some activism and controversy rather than boring conformity.

We have fallen so far back from the Consciousness Revolution Awakening, that there's mountains and oceans of awakening still due in the next 2T. A society, state and culture that has been fast asleep for 40 years will need another break, and another breakthrough when it finally comes. But I will agree that the next 2T will be somewhat milder or mellower in tone than the late sixties.

I wrote about the 22nd century in my book. Astrology gives a good peak.
http://philosopherswheel.com/hna.html

[Eric the Green]

(04-22-2020, 08:21 AM)Isoko Wrote: Rebellion is not a common  thing entirely throughout turnings and I would argue that the 1960s was a rather unique event that won't be repeated for a long time to come.

It needs to be constant!

perpetual subversion!

[JasonBlack]

(04-14-2020, 02:26 PM)Isoko Wrote: My own opinion is that the Zoomers are more than likely going to be a centrist generation. They won't be left wing as that is the established culture and the kids obviously are going to rebel. But they won't be full on alt right either. However expect with coming problems, this generation might be slightly tinted towards something alt rightish. So I'm guessing a sort of centre right leaning for the majority with a hey, your gay, that's cool, just don't shove your culture at me bra type of mindset.

The Adaptive generational archetype is the least rebellious of the saeculum. "Young people just do the opposite of what their parents do" is one of many tendencies people have to associate the behavior of idealists in youth/rising adulthood with all generations of that age (ex: it tends to be associated with idealism not present in Reactive generations, rising crime not present in Civic generations and rebellion not seen in Adaptive generations).

Millennials (Civic Gen) are a good example of this. Everything they're protesting is exactly what the boomers did in the Awakening. Racism? Gender Equality? Sexual liberation? Environmentalism? Even their "anti-establishment" rhetoric is exactly what their boomer parents and teachers taught them to say, and speaking as a millennial, it's hard not to laugh at them for this.

[JasonBlack]

(04-22-2020, 03:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(04-22-2020, 08:21 AM)Isoko Wrote: Rebellion is not a common  thing entirely throughout turnings and I would argue that the 1960s was a rather unique event that won't be repeated for a long time to come.

It needs to be constant!

perpetual subversion!

I'm assuming you're being a bit tongue-and-cheek, but...no, we don't. Americans have turned into an insufferably rude, impulsive and entitled culture across generations because we've been taught for so long to be "passionate", "let our voices be heard", "fight the system", etc. Everyone is so concerned with dreams, ideology and spectacles of emotion that advocacy has become a vacuous attention game, and the players have no idea how to get things done.

I realize the irony of having just dissed the hell out of millennials only to turn around and say something classically Civic gen, but yeah...we don't need any more of that. We need coolers to prevail if we want to fix things. We need more focus on pragmatism, competence and emotional self-regulation. Americans are so obsessed with "rebellion", "starting a movement", raging against this and that, but this is exactly the kind of mindset that leads a country in crisis down the path of a neurotic mob swept up in momentary frenzy.

Frankly, we need to make it acceptable to just...be a normal ass person who wants to get married and have kids. The obsession people have with being seen as special, virtuous, a "trailblazer" has moved from novel and entertaining a few decades ago to a mainstay of rampant cultural narcissism (in my experience, inward turning, "spiritual" and "high consciousness" people are way more narcissistic on balance than most "materialistic" people who just want to have some nice stuff and be left alone).

[David Horn]

(02-14-2022, 09:33 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(04-22-2020, 03:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(04-22-2020, 08:21 AM)Isoko Wrote: Rebellion is not a common  thing entirely throughout turnings and I would argue that the 1960s was a rather unique event that won't be repeated for a long time to come.

It needs to be constant!

perpetual subversion!

I'm assuming you're being a bit tongue-and-cheek, but...no, we don't. Americans have turned into an insufferably rude, impulsive and entitled culture across generations because we've been taught for so long to be "passionate", "let our voices be heard", "fight the system", etc. Everyone is so concerned with dreams, ideology and spectacles of emotion that advocacy has become a vacuous attention game, and the players have no idea how to get things done.

I realize the irony of having just dissed the hell out of millennials only to turn around and say something classically Civic gen, but yeah...we don't need any more of that. We need coolers to prevail if we want to fix things. We need more focus on pragmatism, competence and emotional self-regulation. Americans are so obsessed with "rebellion", "starting a movement", raging against this and that, but this is exactly the kind of mindset that leads a country in crisis down the path of a neurotic mob swept up in momentary frenzy.

Frankly, we need to make it acceptable to just...be a normal ass person who wants to get married and have kids. The obsession people have with being seen as special, virtuous, a "trailblazer" has moved from novel and entertaining a few decades ago to a mainstay of rampant cultural narcissism (in my experience, inward turning, "spiritual" and "high consciousness" people are way more narcissistic on balance than most "materialistic" people who just want to have some nice stuff and be left alone).

Whether intentionally or not, you've taken a communitarian position that fits the Millennial model to a T.  After 40 years of libertarianism, it's a refreshing change.

[Eric the Green]

(02-14-2022, 09:33 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(04-22-2020, 03:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(04-22-2020, 08:21 AM)Isoko Wrote: Rebellion is not a common  thing entirely throughout turnings and I would argue that the 1960s was a rather unique event that won't be repeated for a long time to come.

It needs to be constant!

perpetual subversion!

I'm assuming you're being a bit tongue-and-cheek, but...no, we don't. Americans have turned into an insufferably rude, impulsive and entitled culture across generations because we've been taught for so long to be "passionate", "let our voices be heard", "fight the system", etc. Everyone is so concerned with dreams, ideology and spectacles of emotion that advocacy has become a vacuous attention game, and the players have no idea how to get things done.

I realize the irony of having just dissed the hell out of millennials only to turn around and say something classically Civic gen, but yeah...we don't need any more of that. We need coolers to prevail if we want to fix things. We need more focus on pragmatism, competence and emotional self-regulation. Americans are so obsessed with "rebellion", "starting a movement", raging against this and that, but this is exactly the kind of mindset that leads a country in crisis down the path of a neurotic mob swept up in momentary frenzy.

Frankly, we need to make it acceptable to just...be a normal ass person who wants to get married and have kids. The obsession people have with being seen as special, virtuous, a "trailblazer" has moved from novel and entertaining a few decades ago to a mainstay of rampant cultural narcissism (in my experience, inward turning, "spiritual" and "high consciousness" people are way more narcissistic on balance than most "materialistic" people who just want to have some nice stuff and be left alone).

Regarding your final paragraph, to me it's acceptable to be what one is called to be. If that's to be normal ass married with kids, that is their calling. If it is to be a special trailblazer, that is their calling. I have chosen the latter, and in any case the opportunity to be the former did not arise for me. It is better not to be narcissistic, but that doesn't mean that being spiritual or high consciousness is narcissistic. It may be your experience that spiritual people are narcissistic, but I would suggest our "normal" society is so focused on individual materialistic success and sensational temporary fame that it is a high bar to cross here to take a genuine spiritual path. Our society does not support it well, or even have any idea what it is.

Your previous paragraphs I don't really disagree with. Although my post said constant subversion, I also endorse "pragmatism, competence and emotional self-regulation", and I think a lot of what's called "rebellion" in the USA today is not that at all, but sheer neurosis. This is mostly the right-wing calling itself rebellion, but really supporting the status quo in a fanatical way; but neurotic frenzy exists on the Left as well.

Have we really "been taught for so long to be "passionate", "let our voices be heard", "fight the system" "?? I'm not so sure at all. Most people still just go along, whether in politics or in submitting to the leader or the boss at work or in non-profits. As George Carlin said, most people don't care that a big red white and blue dick is being jammed up their asshole everyday. Wilful ignorance, and inability to truly think critically about the conditions we live under.

What I might agree with is that in addition to raising our passionate voices to fight the system, we need to be able to listen as well as speak in respectful dialogue, at least some of the time

[Eric the Green]

(02-14-2022, 09:23 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(04-14-2020, 02:26 PM)Isoko Wrote: My own opinion is that the Zoomers are more than likely going to be a centrist generation. They won't be left wing as that is the established culture and the kids obviously are going to rebel. But they won't be full on alt right either. However expect with coming problems, this generation might be slightly tinted towards something alt rightish. So I'm guessing a sort of centre right leaning for the majority with a hey, your gay, that's cool, just don't shove your culture at me bra type of mindset.

The Adaptive generational archetype is the least rebellious of the saeculum. "Young people just do the opposite of what their parents do" is one of many tendencies people have to associate the behavior of idealists in youth/rising adulthood with all generations of that age (ex: it tends to be associated with idealism not present in Reactive generations, rising crime not present in Civic generations and rebellion not seen in Adaptive generations).

Millennials (Civic Gen) are a good example of this. Everything they're protesting is exactly what the boomers did in the Awakening. Racism? Gender Equality? Sexual liberation? Environmentalism? Even their "anti-establishment" rhetoric is exactly what their boomer parents and teachers taught them to say, and speaking as a millennial, it's hard not to laugh at them for this.

Adaptive generations are the least rebellious-- until midlife in the Awakening. Then they are perhaps the MOST rebellious-- until the Awakening is over, and then they go back to being the least rebellious.

Millennials are protesting against what Boomers protested against, because it is all still what NEEDS to be rebelled against, because virtually nothing has been accomplished since Boomers were young and the late 2T Sleepening era came along and neoliberalism took over and squelched all progress from that day to this. And it's no laughing matter if because of this your house burns down or floods away or you or your friend gets killed by a cop or a racist because you are black and/or transgender or you have no money or can't buy a home in a grossly unequal society or get killed in a stupid war ordered by a creepy president or get killed in the violence at home that remains at a rising level because gun control has still not been enacted in all these years.

"Sexual liberation"?? When did THAT start again since the Sleepening era? If you see any let me know