2016: The National "Cry For Help"

[Bad Dog]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/05/health...pe=article
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/health....html?_r=1
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/30/health...pe=article

You Gen-X’rs wanted us dead, right? Congratulations.
 
So keep on saying “It Is What It Is”, or “Your point?”.
 
You’re next. You’ve trained the slackers that you slave-drive into caring even less about others.
 
2016. The National  Election Suicide “cry for help”, no matter your political affiliation.

[Bad Dog]

Social Isolation:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/06/health...pe=article

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/22/upshot...pe=article

[pbrower2a]

Quote:   Bad Dog

     

Quote: pbrower2a
       Something even more precious may be dying this year. American democracy.

   http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/05/health...pe=article

   Here's why; We've lost hope. Hence, Trump.

   This is my demo: Educated, intelligent, experienced, and past 26.

Appropriate thread-starter. Demographics can dovetail with the generational cycle. I think that we can take have taken it there. But it is the middle-aged (early-wave X) and the 'young-old' and 'near-old' Boomers who either weren't born with silver spoons in their mouths or never latched onto the economic fast track who get to enter old age in a world that has suddenly become hostile to the prospects of old age.

Donald Trump offers me nothing but cause to dissent and perhaps develop some community among others who will be satisfied to "make America GOOD again". That of course is an America in which people care about each other instead of being at each others' throats like 'good' proles in a fantasy out of or inspired by Ayn Rand. (OK, Anthem is OK, and I encourage people to read it  as a logical sequel to 1984. But Anthem is less infused with the every-man-for-himself ethos. That is also an America that respects formal education instead of deriding it.

Dumb solutions are almost always the wrong solutions. Supporting Donald Trump is about as wise as taking up a cocaine habit.

I doubt whether I can fit into an America in which one must be an undemanding work-horse to survive. As a Boomer I have known the good times in American life. I at the least remember hearing Lost and GI (and the world for most GI young adults seems hardscrabble enough before at least the late 1930s) and some of their lessons. Formal education is far more fruitful than the School of Hard Knocks. You are your 'brother's keeper'. 'Fascism sucks' is an understatement.

[gabrielle]

Generation X does NOT want Baby Boomers dead, Jesus!  

We do have a responsibility, in our role as 4T crisis management, to build a better world for the next saeculum.  But I disagree with you that we've trained Millies to care less about humanity; from what I've observed of them--personally and in a general sense--they care very much, to the point that they are derided as "SJWs" and "special snowflakes."  My fear is that they will lack staying power; that they give up too easily.

[gabrielle]

(01-01-2017, 03:56 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 03:33 PM)gabrielle Wrote: Generation X does NOT want Baby Boomers dead, Jesus!  

We do have a responsibility, in our role as 4T crisis management, to build a better world for the next saeculum.  But I disagree with you that we've trained Millies to care less about humanity; from what I've observed of them--personally and in a general sense--they care very much, to the point that they are derided as "SJWs" and "special snowflakes."  My fear is that they will lack staying power; that they give up too easily.

Ah actually some xers have actually said it would be better if they were dead. Heck I have even known some boomers themselves who have said it would be better if their generation was dead. Sorry but you cannot take away from what has already been said. Does it mean all agree? No. But some have actually said that.

It might be that he was only referring to a few assholes on these forums, but I got the impression he was speaking in a general sense.

[gabrielle]

(01-01-2017, 04:17 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 04:09 PM)gabrielle Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 03:56 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 03:33 PM)gabrielle Wrote: Generation X does NOT want Baby Boomers dead, Jesus!  

We do have a responsibility, in our role as 4T crisis management, to build a better world for the next saeculum.  But I disagree with you that we've trained Millies to care less about humanity; from what I've observed of them--personally and in a general sense--they care very much, to the point that they are derided as "SJWs" and "special snowflakes."  My fear is that they will lack staying power; that they give up too easily.

Ah actually some xers have actually said it would be better if they were dead. Heck I have even known some boomers themselves who have said it would be better if their generation was dead. Sorry but you cannot take away from what has already been said. Does it mean all agree? No. But some have actually said that.

It might be that he was only referring to a few assholes on these forums, but I got the impression he was speaking in a general sense.

Could be but from my personal experience it goes beyond this forum unfortunately. It is even shown here in NZ too with some of our xers. Millies to a lesser degree. It is sad because these people probably have boomer relatives. Are they wishing them dead too? Things said in anger like this can be quite idiotic when you think about it.

Yes, that is pretty shitty.  I have never personally heard anyone wish Boomers were dead, Gen X or otherwise.  Some of my Millie coworkers have complained about Boomers, and shared memes like this:

[pbrower2a]

(01-01-2017, 03:33 PM)gabrielle Wrote: Generation X does NOT want Baby Boomers dead, Jesus!  

We do have a responsibility, in our role as 4T crisis management, to build a better world for the next saeculum.  But I disagree with you that we've trained Millies to care less about humanity; from what I've observed of them--personally and in a general sense--they care very much, to the point that they are derided as "SJWs" and "special snowflakes."  My fear is that they will lack staying power; that they give up too easily.

They might cheer when certain ones -- those that thwart Millennial tendencies toward an equitable, sane, collegial society and try to tie X to an economic order that serves only entrenched wealth and the bureaucratic power within private industry die or become irrelevant. This Boomer, if he had the ability to do so with the stoke of a pen, would promptly grant the desire for an equitable, sane, and collegial society that offers alternatives to servitude to a rapacious, selfish, arrogant elite. I can easily see large parts of Generation X, mostly the non-white, non-Anglo, non-Christian, and non-straight parts, siding with most Millennial adults to create a more humane and decent order. This Boomer will be on your side, as will many of us. I may be self-righteous, but my moral values are consistent with a good and just America.

I look forward to the Trump Administration with much the same relish as I would to a four-year penal term. The type that Donald Trump is creates a vile order in other countries where it comes to power... and I see no reason to believe that we are not in for the nastiest politics in America since just before the Civil War.

The inequity, insanity, atomization, and elitism that threaten to give America a new feudalism creates the Crisis. Everything about the Hard Right that pushes such is ethically and intellectually absurd.

[Eric the Green]

I always dissent from that first picture. Boomers were statistically less inclined to support Reagan than other generations. They didn't make the decision to institute Reaganomics. The GIs and Silents did that, and the early and core Gen Xers were its most enthusiastic supporters as they grew up under it, and then kept it going.

Boomers are more culpable on that last point, however. Boomers as older folks have gotten more Republican and helped drive the Bush era and the Tea Party, thus driving up the deficit with more tax cuts.

[Galen]

(01-01-2017, 09:26 PM)gabrielle Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 04:17 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 04:09 PM)gabrielle Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 03:56 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 03:33 PM)gabrielle Wrote: Generation X does NOT want Baby Boomers dead, Jesus!  

We do have a responsibility, in our role as 4T crisis management, to build a better world for the next saeculum.  But I disagree with you that we've trained Millies to care less about humanity; from what I've observed of them--personally and in a general sense--they care very much, to the point that they are derided as "SJWs" and "special snowflakes."  My fear is that they will lack staying power; that they give up too easily.

Ah actually some xers have actually said it would be better if they were dead. Heck I have even known some boomers themselves who have said it would be better if their generation was dead. Sorry but you cannot take away from what has already been said. Does it mean all agree? No. But some have actually said that.

It might be that he was only referring to a few assholes on these forums, but I got the impression he was speaking in a general sense.

Could be but from my personal experience it goes beyond this forum unfortunately. It is even shown here in NZ too with some of our xers. Millies to a lesser degree. It is sad because these people probably have boomer relatives. Are they wishing them dead too? Things said in anger like this can be quite idiotic when you think about it.

Yes, that is pretty shitty.  I have never personally heard anyone wish Boomers were dead, Gen X or otherwise.  Some of my Millie coworkers have complained about Boomers, and shared memes like this:

One of the best summations of what the Boomers did that I have ever seen.

[Warren Dew]

(01-02-2017, 03:35 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I always dissent from that first picture. Boomers were statistically less inclined to support Reagan than other generations. They didn't make the decision to institute Reaganomics. The GIs and Silents did that, and the early and core Gen Xers were its most enthusiastic supporters as they grew up under it, and then kept it going.

The big bills that are being handed to the "kids" are from massive entitlement programs like Social Security and Medicare; they are more FDR and LBJ than Reagan.  Obviously boomers didn't do that since they weren't even alive at the time of FDR and most weren't voting in time for LBJ.

It really comes down to the GIs, who benefited from those programs much more than they paid in.  Handing bills down generation by generation worked as long as each later generation of payers was bigger, but boomers were really the last generation big enough to pay the tab.

[Bob Butler 54]

Quote:

Quote:Some of my Millie coworkers have complained about Boomers, and shared memes like this:

One of the best summations of what the Boomers did that I have ever seen.

Hmm.  There's no small amount of truth in the above.  However...

The deficits came with Voodoo Economics.  This boomer never voted for that (expletive deleted.)  Not all boomers are alike in all things.

I never had kids.

My first salary out of college was higher than that.

I got my dream job with the help of my colleges' find-a-job department.

I did move back in with my parents for a decade or so.

Why wake up?  Well, yes, it would be nice if the country as a whole graduated beyond voodoo economics.

I do feel that in some ways the GI's saw the peak of the time when America was Great, not the Boomers.  My father got a full time job with New England Telephone shortly after returning from World War II.  He retired out the phone company decades later.  There was a loyalty, a two way street, back in the day.  As he took stock options whenever the company offered them, he retired a millionaire though his education ended at high school and he never go promoted past mid management.  In the 1960s he bought a second home, a summer home, lakefront property.  I'm currently typing this note in that home, which I inherited a few years back.  My lake is surrounded by 1960s era second homes, many of which were built by the GI home owners, who were good with tools.  Many of these properties are now winterized, but in the 1960s lots of folks could afford second homes just so their kids could water ski.  

Not to say I would wish to have been born in my father's time.  His free tour of Italy provided by the government in 1944 to 1946 didn't sound like a lot of fun.  I was just old enough to avoid Vietnam.  I'd say my timing was good enough to be very pleased with.

I'm also pleased with the Awakening changes.  The anti war, race equality (sorta), gender equality (sorta) and ecological awareness (sorta) were worthy changes to the culture.  The timing of my life allowed me to live in a culture better in many ways.  

But the work ethic, the willingness go pay taxes to get great things done, were the hallmark of the GIs.  The Boomers participated in the end of it, but it fell apart with the National Malaise that Carter spoke of.  Tax and spend liberalism turned into borrow and spend trickle down.  The willingness to work hard, get taxed hard, and pay for an improving society ended.  Some Boomers voted for this change, some voted against.

I think Reagan had his fingers on the pulse of the country.  I don't think the economic aspects of the unravelling could have been avoided.  Tax and spend had been going on for too long.  Too many sacrifices had been made to sustain it.  Even the GIs ran out of gas.  Unravellings are supposed to be times of selfishness, when people become less willing to sacrifice for the common good, become ready for tax cuts and selfish indulgence.  Well, when a country drops a work ethic dedicated to the common good to favor selfish indulgence, what does one expect to happen in the long run?

And, yes, I've done my share of the unravelling selfish indulgence.  So have a lot of Xers and Millenials.  I see the unraveling values shift as effecting all generations.  The Boomers just had the advantage of more years in the work force before work ethic collapsed.  Yes, I appreciate that, but I didn't chose the year I was born.

How does America become Great Again?  A return to hard work and a willingness to apply the results to the common good would be one plausible answer.  That died with the arrival of the unravelling.  Crises are supposed to be a time when everyone has to come together to confront grave problems.  Thus far, I'm not really seeing that supposed-to-be cyclical shift.  Too many people think a return to greatness just requires wishful thinking and voting for empty promises.  We've got problems.  At some point we've got to resolve to fix them.

[flbones too]

The thing about those memes is that they're actually so accurate.

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-03-2017, 10:04 AM)flbones too Wrote: The thing about those memes is that they're actually so accurate.

Yes, the boomers took advantage of a favorable environment.  I strongly suspect that if members of other generations had the same opportunities available, they would have taken advantage of them too.  Should we be blamed for being born into the tail end of America's greatness?

The problem is a profound disagreement on how to restore that environment or invent something new that might approximate it somehow.  Do we double down on the unravelling borrow and spend trickle down, somehow expecting that continuing unravelling policies will end the unravelling?  Do we return to some variant of the New Deal crisis values, working together for the common good?

All generations are divided in different ways on this question.  Boomers tend towards idealism, and will express themselves in a certain way.  Xers might be more pragmatic and edgy, disgusted by the ideals, and express their opinion in different ways.  They are still divided.

The problem is red and blue, not generational.

[Eric the Green]

Thanks for the good posts; I'm glad to hear you don't want all of us baby boomers dead.

[Eric the Green]

(01-03-2017, 09:20 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-02-2017, 03:35 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I always dissent from that first picture. Boomers were statistically less inclined to support Reagan than other generations. They didn't make the decision to institute Reaganomics. The GIs and Silents did that, and the early and core Gen Xers were its most enthusiastic supporters as they grew up under it, and then kept it going.

The big bills that are being handed to the "kids" are from massive entitlement programs like Social Security and Medicare; they are more FDR and LBJ than Reagan.  Obviously boomers didn't do that since they weren't even alive at the time of FDR and most weren't voting in time for LBJ.

It really comes down to the GIs, who benefited from those programs much more than they paid in.  Handing bills down generation by generation worked as long as each later generation of payers was bigger, but boomers were really the last generation big enough to pay the tab.

Bless the GIs for being the most consistent supporters of these programs, and reminding us that if there is a "bill" for them, they are well worth paying. And FDR and LBJ didn't give us our massive federal debt; Reagan and Bush did; although LBJ obviously overspent on the Vietnam war and tried to give us both guns and butter to excess.

Social Security and Medicare are not problems, and are not the cause of the debt. They are paid-for programs. Relatively speaking, Social Security is better paid for than Medicare, but basically it's the same deal. Social Security is massively in surplus, except that taxes paid for by workers for social security has been used for other things-- chiefly to pay off the debt racked up intentionally by Reagan and Co. to give conservatives the arguments they need to cut it. And also by our military industrial complex and its many unnecessary and costly wars, and by needless and useless tax cuts for the wealthy.

And Medicare is the best health care cost cutting program that there is, but the cost of health care is still rising, and that's due entirely to greedy insurance companies, drug companies and hospitals who charge too much. Our Republican mentality is to blame, because single payer would get rid of the high cost of health care in a single stroke, but the "less government" memes of neo-liberalism (trickle-down, libertarian Reaganomics), and ONLY that, keep it from being politically viable.

[Eric the Green]

(01-03-2017, 05:50 AM)Galen Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 09:26 PM)gabrielle Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 04:17 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 04:09 PM)gabrielle Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 03:56 PM)taramarie Wrote: Ah actually some xers have actually said it would be better if they were dead. Heck I have even known some boomers themselves who have said it would be better if their generation was dead. Sorry but you cannot take away from what has already been said. Does it mean all agree? No. But some have actually said that.

It might be that he was only referring to a few assholes on these forums, but I got the impression he was speaking in a general sense.

Could be but from my personal experience it goes beyond this forum unfortunately. It is even shown here in NZ too with some of our xers. Millies to a lesser degree. It is sad because these people probably have boomer relatives. Are they wishing them dead too? Things said in anger like this can be quite idiotic when you think about it.

Yes, that is pretty shitty.  I have never personally heard anyone wish Boomers were dead, Gen X or otherwise.  Some of my Millie coworkers have complained about Boomers, and shared memes like this:

One of the best summations of what the Boomers did that I have ever seen.

Well it's true, but only the first picture in the upper left is any kind of accusation (and it's false, of course, from any point of view, whether mine or Warren's.) These pictures of a Boomer young worker and the "meme" words with them only show that the Boomers had it better in youth than young people today, not anything that Boomers did "wrong." That's certainly true, but it's all because people became hooked on the memes that Galen promotes. And at first, Boomers were less hooked by Reaganomics than other generations were. But now, Boomers by and large have certainly not woken up to the facts of inequality, nor to the responsibility of Galen's favorite neo-liberal memes FOR those facts.

[Warren Dew]

(01-03-2017, 04:00 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(01-01-2017, 03:33 PM)gabrielle Wrote: Generation X does NOT want Baby Boomers dead, Jesus!  

We do have a responsibility, in our role as 4T crisis management, to build a better world for the next saeculum.  But I disagree with you that we've trained Millies to care less about humanity; from what I've observed of them--personally and in a general sense--they care very much, to the point that they are derided as "SJWs" and "special snowflakes."  My fear is that they will lack staying power; that they give up too easily.

I'm actually freaking out about the Boomers retiring and in some cases dying. We are losing so much skill and knowledge right at a time when formal knowledge management is in one of the weakest conditions I have ever witnessed. The shame of it is how we could be using technology to do really great knowledge management but are not. The opportunity may soon be lost. This is how dark ages get started.

Better make your contributions to Wikipedia.

[Warren Dew]

(01-03-2017, 04:27 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Thanks for the good posts; I'm glad to hear you don't want all of us baby boomers dead.

Meh.  "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." - Winston Churchill

[Warren Dew]

(01-03-2017, 04:36 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Social Security and Medicare are not problems, and are not the cause of the debt. They are paid-for programs. Relatively speaking, Social Security is better paid for than Medicare, but basically it's the same deal.

False.  Social Security has unfunded liabilities of $32 trillion, not counting Medicare.  That dwarfs the nominal debt of $17 trillion or so.

[Galen]

(01-04-2017, 01:20 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-03-2017, 04:36 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Social Security and Medicare are not problems, and are not the cause of the debt. They are paid-for programs. Relatively speaking, Social Security is better paid for than Medicare, but basically it's the same deal.

False.  Social Security has unfunded liabilities of $32 trillion, not counting Medicare.  That dwarfs the nominal debt of $17 trillion or so.

Like I keep trying to tell Eric the Obtuse, the government has over promised.  In the end there will be a default even if it isn't called that.  For example the default in 1971 is called closing the gold window which means that there wasn't enough gold to cover the dollar bills that were printed.  A consequence of the Great Society programs and the Vietnam War which the Boomers failed to correct in the years since LBJ.