The cancer infecting the political Left

[Einzige]

The entire thing is a scam. Biden is the candidate of the coastal bourgeoisie, with roots in the credit card industry in Delaware. Trump is the candidate of the extractive industries in the interior and the defense complex (with the exception of those elements with roots in the tech sector).

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-01-2020, 11:53 PM)Einzige Wrote: The entire thing is a scam. Biden is the candidate of the coastal bourgeoisie, with roots in the credit card industry in Delaware. Trump is the candidate of the extractive industries in the interior and the defense complex (with the exception of those elements with roots in the tech sector).

Yah. Both Biden and Trump have ties to the elites formed in the unraveling. It was considered a better tie to power to take money from the elites rather than to serve the people. Not so in a crisis. You have to solve the most significant problems confronting the culture. Spending money on making the problems go away will not make the elites overly happy.

But at least Biden is in a position to work on the problems. The Marxists? They can't draw a large enough following to be a significant player.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-01-2020, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-01-2020, 09:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The need for labor hasn't changed. The world has changed since World War II. So, how are you going to compete with a changing world that's becoming more competitive and more productive by sticking with old tax laws?

As computer productivity eliminates jobs, as jobs are sent overseas, as labor shifts into unnecessary production of luxury goods and service, the labor situation has changed.  As an example, since the COVID precautions kicked in, I have cooked my own meals, and have spent less on my hobbies.

I do anticipate that Trump's tax cuts for the elites will be changed to get out of the economic downturn caused by COVID.  I do anticipate that more essential stuff, such as recently PPE and ventilators, will understandably be required to be built locally so nations will be less dependent on one another.

Competing with populations willing to endure environmental degradation, low wages, poor benefits and autocratic governments working hand in hand with the elites will be hard.  Tariffs on nations who feature these things striving to use the US market  are likely.  The key is that the elites use the low wage low benefit, poor environment environments for making a profit.  If you want to accept campaign contributions to benefit the elites as the establishment Republicans have through the unraveling, you's have to change.

[Einzige]

(12-02-2020, 01:03 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-01-2020, 11:53 PM)Einzige Wrote: The entire thing is a scam. Biden is the candidate of the coastal bourgeoisie, with roots in the credit card industry in Delaware. Trump is the candidate of the extractive industries in the interior and the defense complex (with the exception of those elements with roots in the tech sector).

Yah.  Both Biden and Trump have ties to the elites formed in the unraveling.  It was considered a better tie to power to take money from the elites rather than to serve the people.  Not so in a crisis.  You have to solve the most significant problems confronting the culture.  Spending money on making the problems go away will not make the elites overly happy.

But at least Biden is in a position to work on the problems.  The Marxists?  They can't draw a large enough following to be a significant player.

The point of Marxists is not to instigate or lead a revolution. That comes as a consequence of processes endemic to capitalism.

[Einzige]

(12-02-2020, 01:13 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-01-2020, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-01-2020, 09:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The need for labor hasn't changed. The world has changed since World War II. So, how are you going to compete with a changing world that's becoming more competitive and more productive by sticking with old tax laws?

As computer productivity eliminates jobs, as jobs are sent overseas, as labor shifts into unnecessary production of luxury goods and service, the labor situation has changed.  As an example, since the COVID precautions kicked in, I have cooked my own meals, and have spent less on my hobbies.

I do anticipate that Trump's tax cuts for the elites will be changed to get out of the economic downturn caused by COVID.  I do anticipate that more essential stuff, such as recently PPE and ventilators, will understandably be required to be built locally so nations will be less dependent on one another.

Competing with populations willing to endure environmental degradation, low wages, poor benefits and autocratic governments working hand in hand with the elites will be hard.  Tariffs on nations who feature these things striving to use the US market  are likely.  The key is that the elites use the low wage low benefit, poor environment environments for making a profit.  If you want to accept campaign contributions to benefit the elites as the establishment Republicans have through the unraveling, you's have to change.

The Republicans didn't represent the working class until recently. I'm not a working class voter myself. Until recently, the Democrats represented the working class people.

Neither party has ever "represented" the working class. Stop thinking in terms of representation altogether and think in terms of real expressions of power by the class.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-02-2020, 01:17 AM)Einzige Wrote: Neither party has ever "represented" the working class. Stop thinking in terms of representation altogether and think in terms of real expressions of power by the class.

Not true of the Democrats from FDR through LBJ. Through the unravelling, sorta true. Pretty true of the Marxists and Communists.

[Einzige]

(12-02-2020, 06:30 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-02-2020, 01:17 AM)Einzige Wrote: Neither party has ever "represented" the working class. Stop thinking in terms of representation altogether and think in terms of real expressions of power by the class.

Not true of the Democrats from FDR through LBJ.  Through the unravelling, sorta true.  Pretty true of the Marxists and Communists.

The New Deal Democratic Party was a capitalist Party that represented the interests of a coterie of subsidy-heavy agricultural interests, construction companies and the like - and the Southern elite. Any 'pro-worker' policies they adopted were molded by Capital (e.g. having to work until 65 to collect social security).

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-02-2020, 06:58 AM)Einzige Wrote: The New Deal Democratic Party was a capitalist Party that represented the interests of a coterie of subsidy-heavy agricultural interests, construction companies and the like - and the Southern elite. Any 'pro-worker' policies they adopted were molded by Capital (e.g. having to work until 65 to collect social security).

I think you are projecting Communist behavior on the Democrats. Talk about the elites monopolizing the means of production! Yes, you have to pay some attention on not killing the goose that lays the golden eggs in running a capitalist system, but they gave a lot more power to the labor unions, a lot more jobs, a lot more a share of the wages and benefits than the Marxists or Communists ever did.

[pbrower2a]

(12-01-2020, 08:51 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-01-2020, 04:08 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Which is why we need a market -- to smash delusions.  One of the worst delusions is that enterprise is no necessity.

And yet the need for labor changes.  In order for the elites to gather their ever increasing cut, the economy is producing Unneeded stuff in order that the working man keeps employed enough to maintain a reasonable lifestyle.  Labor is not required as much as it once was.  Thus, do we need the 40 hour work week and retirement age of 65?  Do we have to allocate resources that are getting ever rarer to stuff nobody needs?

With each Crisis Era has come a Great Devaluation. Continental dollars. Confederate currency and the asset valuation of slaves. Real estate and shares of stock in the wake of the 1929 Crash. This time it could be the value of labor while all else becomes fiendishly expensive. I question whether such would be stable. 

The most reasonable solution is to reduce the number of hours worked. The alternative is to have more of the toil become translated into economic rent (which includes rent on real estate whose rent has no connection to the cost of initial building or acquisition). Economic rent also includes the reward for monopolization and cartels and the establishment of bloated bureaucracies in Big Business. Note well: bureaucracies do not create wealth; they simply control it and keep the proles in line. They are often the enforcers of class privilege.  

I look at the ideology of the American Right and I see an ethos in which the rich have no responsibilities and an entitlement to class privilege while the working people have a duty to serve the super-rich to the extent demanded while the super-rich have no responsibility except to themselves. I am tempted to call that neo-feudal, the "neo" part being the technology of control, enforcement, and personal numbing.      

Quote:A lot has to change for the new economy to be built back better.  A rethought exchange of labor for necessities is one of them.  Rewarding those who put in a little extra in exchange for more than necessities seems necessary.

Markets have their merits in encouraging people to do work itself, to please customers, to operate more efficiently, to take reasonable (but reject unreasonable) risks, to do work best described as pure drudgery if it is necessary, and to not to operate in delusion (buggy whips/elevator operators/mainframe computers/pre-recorded VHS tapes will always be necessary).  I have seen a suggestion in a theory of a life-cycle of business entities that bureaucratization is evidence of serious decline in a firm. So workers are paid so badly because profit margins are thin that they are tempted to steal to make ends meet, and the company 'solves' that by having a large bureaucracy to control the inventory from 'inventory shrinkage'. Such explains the retail apocalypse. (Cheap labor is not prosperity; it is misery).  

Quote: But agreed the Marxist myth of from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs, is just that.  A myth.

Even the slave-master on the plantation was able to exploit the slave as completely as possible while reducing his upkeep as completely as possible. That was no myth. Obviously some people will need help (children, the crippled, the mentally-handicapped, and the worn-out) who either cannot yet meet their needs, can do so no longer, or will never have the chance to do so again. Whatever system of social organization one has, if it fails to recognize human kindness as a virtue it will become a monstrosity!

This said, human happiness is the only fit objective, and that happiness cannot be restricted to some privileged elite.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-02-2020, 07:46 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-02-2020, 06:58 AM)Einzige Wrote: The New Deal Democratic Party was a capitalist Party that represented the interests of a coterie of subsidy-heavy agricultural interests, construction companies and the like - and the Southern elite. Any 'pro-worker' policies they adopted were molded by Capital (e.g. having to work until 65 to collect social security).

I think you are projecting Communist behavior on the Democrats.  Talk about the elites monopolizing the means of production!  Yes, you have to pay some attention on not killing the goose that lays the golden eggs in running a capitalist system, but they gave a lot more power to the labor unions, a lot more jobs, a lot more a share of the wages and benefits than the Marxists or Communists ever did.

He's right, we are both associated with capitalist party. I'm associated with the one that doesn't pretend it isn't and deny it or pretend to be something else to get elected. The Democratic Party is more or less a business these days. It's the largest and most powerful business that we have in this country. So, the Republican party better get it's shit together and understand where its base is at because the 70 some million American people who voted for Trump are well aware of it these days. You are looking at an American army that can mobilize and destroy the business that most of you are reliant on one way or another these days. Self reliance has its perks. Einzige represents the plethora of anarchists and anarchist groups that I refer to as Quasi Socialists and associate with you and the Democratic party as a whole.

Like I said, you's guys had to pull out all the stops and scrape the bottom of the barrel to win this election. So, how much money and loss of integrity did the Biden victory cost? The young Liberal clueless/ gullible who weren't paying attention who got emotionally tied up in the hoopla over George Floyd or all the hoopla over COVID19. It's pretty clear the first round of COVID didn't teach the blue governors about the importance of being fully prepared to handle round two of COVID. They had several months to prepare for round two. So, how rich has Pelosi got while she's been in office? We've got a pretty good idea about how rich Biden has gotten since he's a humble beginnings kind of Democrat/candidate. I'll give Bernie credit, he talked the talk and walked the walk and lived the as a humble servant for the most part. Biden ain't Bernie or a self made billionaire like Trump either. Guess what, there isn't going to be a honeymoon period with Biden and Biden should expect no support from the Republicans because the ones who survived or were added weren't elected to bow down and go along with the Democrats and the focus is going from Biden to the Democratic population. So, get ready, the time of playing nice, being kind to Democratic supporters is done. Like I said, Biden fulfilling his promise to end COVID is a given at this point. We're just waiting for a group of pro Biden bureaucrats to quit dragging there feet over minor percentages. Fucking murderers. Don't the fucking murderers know that thousands of people are dying. See, I can be like PB too. If PB can run rough shot then why can't I?

[Eric the Green]

We won the election for president, but you reactionaries do have enough power from it to stop most of the reforms and actions that Biden wants to do for the people. Your big-business tycoon Party wants to destroy the people. We will continue to work for an America that represents the people, not a privileged few. That's the Democratic Party. We will try to get through a budget that raises taxes on you big business tycoons that extort everything from the people.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-02-2020, 06:30 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-02-2020, 01:17 AM)Einzige Wrote: Neither party has ever "represented" the working class. Stop thinking in terms of representation altogether and think in terms of real expressions of power by the class.

Not true of the Democrats from FDR through LBJ.  Through the unravelling, sorta true.  Pretty true of the Marxists and Communists.

FDR didn't represent all of it. FDR represented the portion of it that was white, male, union and later veteran which he added before he died. Of coarse, the veterans split over Korea and Vietnam (a couple of needless wars that a couple of Democrats committed America that turned into quagmires run by global minded politicians and bureaucrats instead of American generals ingrained with the understanding that they were sent there to win an American war like they were before Korea and Vietnam.

I'd like to thank you for helping to bring it to light. So, what's an anti corporate, anti Wall Street, anti crony capitalist Democrat doing on their side these days? Didn't you hear, there's a few trillion to solve an issue with Mother Nature and a few trillion more to solve the issues that we seen over the summer? Gee, how can I tap into to that action? If I didn't have scruples, I'd be in on that action and I would have been in on the action with the housing market too. Oh, if I was a Democrat in office, I could have gotten rich and blamed Republicans for something that Clinton did and got away with it without any concerns. See, Democrats are either stupid or Democrat's don't hold their own to the same standards as they do others or don't care as long as Democrat does their job and continues bringing home the bacon? Which is it? The problem is you're on the wrong side and you don't seem to be aware of it or able to see what the rest of the country was/is able to see these days.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-02-2020, 02:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We won the election for president, but you reactionaries do have enough power from it to stop most of the reforms and actions that Biden wants to do for the people. Your big-business tycoon Party wants to destroy the people. We will continue to work for an America that represents the people, not a privileged few. That's the Democratic Party. We will try to get through a budget that raises taxes on you big business tycoons that extort everything from the people.

Yep. You won the election for President and Biden was elected to serve those who elected him. That's the country we seem to live in now. You've adjusted, Pelosi has adjusted, Schumer has adjusted and that's how the country is being run. You can thank Obama for teaching us that back in 08' and that's how the country is going to be run until the country either splits or one of them collapses. Moderates no longer matter. Moderates either go along or face the risk of being defunded and removed.  That is the way the Democratic business works, right? Before you answer, keep this in mind, I've been closely following and closely paying attention to how the Democratic Business does business for years. I guess being in business for well over one hundred years like the Democratic business has been even after half of it was soundly defeated by America during the last American Civil War.

So, welcome to the 4T era and I've already to taken the time to introduce you to your new adversaries. I hope you're ready for a war that's going to make Iraq and Afghanistan look like child's play. I don't have a tycoon over my head making decisions for me about my business or the products that I prefer to buy and so forth like you and Joe Biden do these days. Facebook, Citibank, Google, Amazon, CBS, NBC, ABC, HBO, Microsoft, Bloomberg are all big business's run by tycoons that your candidate is now obligated to serve their interests along with your interests and the interests of everyone else who helped him win. We could throw China in the mix too but that will need some time for independent investigators/ journalists to prove beyond all doubt. I'm pretty sure Biden's attorney general will do everything in their power to protect him and to keep him in power. I don't see the value in electing a political patsy at this point but the tycoons do which makes sense with all the trillions that Biden represents Wasn't the Obama election supposed to be the big payday? It should have been, he had everything in place like FDR and LBJ? So what happened?

So, how much debt does it take for America to let go of Washington DC and wash its hands and start over? We're over a year of GDP in debt right now. According to Dave, your living a dream which sounds about right to me. You're not alone, there's a bunch of people born with silvers spoons or propelled into the world of those born with silvers who are living a dream too. A dream where idiots can write some thing stupid, claim to know something stupid, do something stupid or go along with something stupid and stay rich or get richer. Pretty backwards don't you think. You know that say if you drink sea water you'll go nuts. I wonder if living to close for to long (inhaling it's vapors and so forth) has a similar affect.

[Bob Butler 54]

I just have a feeling that 2020 isn't over. The hospitals are on the brink of overloading. Thanksgiving is apt to cause another holiday surge on top of the current surge. Trump seems to be going for pardons over revenge. He is seeking money for his next life while the legal cases are pending.

I keep waiting for the base to wake up. They ought to wake up. If they don't, they deserve what is coming.

[Mickey123]

(12-02-2020, 01:16 AM)Einzige Wrote: The point of Marxists is not to instigate or lead a revolution. That comes as a consequence of processes endemic to capitalism.

This is the Marxist fantasy that never worked out in reality.

Marx had the idea that communism would happen automatically, that capitalism carried the seeds of its own destruction, and would inevitably lead to communism just as a ball rolls down a hill.  But this never happened.  It turns out that capitalism leads to social democracy, and the workers have good enough lives that they never rise up and overthrow the system.

So Marxists, having faced the failure of Marx's theories, have turned to forcing socialism into place, through violent revolutions.  This has been a complete disaster, creating miserable police state dystopias.  In places where socialist revolutions are not currently possible, Marxists have turned to cultural Marxism, trying to rot society from within in the hopes that if they can make things bad enough, workers will finally rise up.

The sad truth is that Marxism has led to nothing but misery, but Marxists never give up, always ready to create more of it.  "This time, it will be different", they say each time.

[Einzige]

(12-02-2020, 09:13 PM)Mickey123 Wrote:

(12-02-2020, 01:16 AM)Einzige Wrote: The point of Marxists is not to instigate or lead a revolution. That comes as a consequence of processes endemic to capitalism.

This is the Marxist fantasy that never worked out in reality.

Marx had the idea that communism would happen automatically, that capitalism carried the seeds of its own destruction, and would inevitably lead to communism just as a ball rolls down a hill.  But this never happened.  It turns out that capitalism leads to social democracy, and the workers have good enough lives that they never rise up and overthrow the system.

So Marxists, having faced the failure of Marx's theories, have turned to forcing socialism into place, through violent revolutions.  This has been a complete disaster, creating miserable police state dystopias.  In places where socialist revolutions are not currently possible, Marxists have turned to cultural Marxism, trying to rot society from within in the hopes that if they can make things bad enough, workers will finally rise up.

The sad truth is that Marxism has led to nothing but misery, but Marxists never give up, always ready to create more of it.  "This time, it will be different", they say each time.

How long has capitalism existed?

[Classic-Xer]

(12-02-2020, 02:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We won the election for president, but you reactionaries do have enough power from it to stop most of the reforms and actions that Biden wants to do for the people. Your big-business tycoon Party wants to destroy the people. We will continue to work for an America that represents the people, not a privileged few. That's the Democratic Party. We will try to get through a budget that raises taxes on you big business tycoons that extort everything from the people.

Funny. You keep calling me the reactionary as you talk about banning/removing guns. Your the Reactionary and there is no doubt about it either at this point. Libertarians can be reactionaries and I've even showed you and told you what to do for that to occur as well. So, do you really think you're (the Liberals/Progressives) going to win a war with the American libertarians and conservatives. I don't think so but you can try because you are free to try in this country. You just have to accept all the consequences. You're fortunate, your not going to learn what your learning from me here by watching the news people and the salesman on Fox. They promote, they speak, they warn, they report but we deliver when the time comes so to speak. So, how long is going to be before Liberal Google is competing with American Google? It won't be long, it's coming after the results of this election and Facebook is in  the same boat as Google. The Democrats may keep their special protections in place but that ain't going to stop America from destroying both of them one way or another after this election. If you own stock, I'd sell it now. Like I said, a bunch of dumb rich people with college degrees pretty much fucked themselves big time during this election. The plus side, it's nice to know the people in Portland can handle living with violence and politicians who refuse or prefer not to get involved or do much about it as well. I don't have to waste any sympathy on any of them.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-02-2020, 09:28 PM)Einzige Wrote:

(12-02-2020, 09:13 PM)Mickey123 Wrote:

(12-02-2020, 01:16 AM)Einzige Wrote: The point of Marxists is not to instigate or lead a revolution. That comes as a consequence of processes endemic to capitalism.

This is the Marxist fantasy that never worked out in reality.

Marx had the idea that communism would happen automatically, that capitalism carried the seeds of its own destruction, and would inevitably lead to communism just as a ball rolls down a hill.  But this never happened.  It turns out that capitalism leads to social democracy, and the workers have good enough lives that they never rise up and overthrow the system.

So Marxists, having faced the failure of Marx's theories, have turned to forcing socialism into place, through violent revolutions.  This has been a complete disaster, creating miserable police state dystopias.  In places where socialist revolutions are not currently possible, Marxists have turned to cultural Marxism, trying to rot society from within in the hopes that if they can make things bad enough, workers will finally rise up.

The sad truth is that Marxism has led to nothing but misery, but Marxists never give up, always ready to create more of it.  "This time, it will be different", they say each time.

How long has capitalism existed?

The Romans and Egyptians and Greeks and most other ancient cultures had currency.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-02-2020, 08:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I just have a feeling that 2020 isn't over.  The hospitals are on the brink of overloading.  Thanksgiving is apt to cause another holiday surge on top of the current surge.  Trump seems to be going for pardons over revenge.  He is seeking money for his next life while the legal cases are pending.

I keep waiting for the base to wake up.  They ought to wake up.  If they don't, they deserve what is coming.

Nope. 2020 is going to extend well into 2022. The Republican base is awake and has been awake for years. The Democratic base is groggy, clueless, still dreaming and wishful thinking. So, what's coming Bob? Is climate change coming or is climate change here forever? I assume climate change is here forever. AOC says that we are going to die in ten years unless we spend Trillions and eliminate evil industries today but the plan is over thirty years. ARE THERE ANY LIBERALS WHO UNDERSTAND MATH or ARE ANY GOOD AT MATH? Since we're all going to be dead in years I've noticed we only have spend 3 Trillion so we can all die feeling good about ourselves. Sounds comical but Liberals are pretty comical these days but it seems to work for largely disconnected Democratic voters/supporters these days. 

Well, if we are going to die and the world is going to starve or die of thirst or be flooded out of house and home due to rising seas, the 1st priority should be exterminating China? The polar bears will adapt.  So, what are we going to do about it? Are you going to change Mother Nature? Did you know that our carbon footprint is less than a quarter of China's? More of the same as far as what we seen last summer? Are the blacks giong to take power and begin enslaving whites? Are our guns going to be taken away by crazy Liberals? The Republican base is awake Bob.

[Einzige]

God, you people are fucking stupid.

Guns?

Quote:Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.