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What the left has devolved to.
#1
Here is what the left devolved into.  Perhaps it is appropriate and ironic that free speech should be opposed so violently in the place where the Free Speech movement got started.  Here is how one person planning to attend Milo's speech was treated.






I also suggest that you listen to what Molyneux has to say.






This all looks like brown-shirt behavior from the thirties.  Makes me wonder who the real fascists are?
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
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#2
SOME have gone overboard yes. Both sides take away rights in the name of their freedom. Not all participate in it though.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#3
(02-02-2017, 03:13 AM)taramarie Wrote: SOME have gone overboard yes. Both sides take away rights in the name of their freedom. Not all participate in it though.

You don't get it yet.  The left is in the process of deciding that anyone who does not agree with them is the equivalent of old Adolph or perhaps Stalin which is absurd.  Have you spent any time looking at Right to Life, Tea Party and the odd Libertarian protest?  They don't do this kind of shit.  You may not like them but if I have a choice about who I would rather deal with it isn't with the left which right now seems be just fine with this.

It is also worth noting that if the groups I mentioned did behave like this the MSM would never let anyone hear the end of it which is why I am confident it doesn't happen.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
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#4
Sorry I prefer to not smear everyone as the same because they aren't.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#5
(02-02-2017, 03:30 AM)taramarie Wrote: Sorry I prefer to not smear everyone as the same because they aren't.

I live near the People's Republic of Portland and hear them talk so I know more about the situation here in the US than you do.  This is the same shit that happened in the sixties and seventies.  Listen to what Stefan had to say about it carefully.  It looks like the second half of this Fourth Turning is getting interesting.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
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#6
You know me, I treat everyone as an individual not defined by preconceived notions of what they are all like by my experience with some blue or red voters and the like. Sorry but people are not clones of each other and I prefer to keep it that way so my mind is kept open on that topic and not clouded by judgement. I have my reasons why and one of them is so open communication for each person is able to be done. I will not participate in smears of vast groups of people.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#7
(02-02-2017, 03:44 AM)taramarie Wrote: You know me, I treat everyone as an individual not defined by preconceived notions of what they are all like by my experience with some blue or red voters and the like. Sorry but people are not clones of each other and I prefer to keep it that way so my mind is kept open on that topic and not clouded by judgement. I have my reasons why and one of them is so open communication for each person is able to be done. I will not participate in smears of vast groups of people.

Know thy enemy.  I would prefer to be wrong but I am a realist and you know your enemy by what they do, say and write.  The left has and is making their intentions known:  No dissent allowed.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
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#8
That response is also why I prefer to listen to individuals rather than lump together as if they are the same. The division and the hatred. I would rather not be part of feeding it and viewing everyone as the same. I know what I stand for and keep ear out and mind open for new information with regards to instability in the human condition. I fight for men's and women's rights. I would prefer not to be judged as just like the rest of the "blues" as i have my own individual thoughts and i assume others do too. It is just respect and a show of an open mind to really get to know the individuals within the larger group to see and hear what is REALLY going on. Anyway, you send me videos all the time. I think it is time for me to send one to you so that you can understand why I also have this mindset. Everyone is different, but this is the general structure of my thought process. Just so there is no confusion...

https://secure-hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/c/5/0/...b2434bab63
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#9
(02-02-2017, 03:30 AM)taramarie Wrote: Sorry I prefer to not smear everyone as the same because they aren't.

Yep.  The folks on the furthest extremes make a lot of noise and don't represent a lot of folk.  I sympathize with neither Yiannopoulos or the black clad protestors.

CBS described Yiannopoulos as follows...

CBS Wrote:Yiannopoulos, a 32-year-old right-wing provocateur, is a vocal supporter of President Trump and a self-proclaimed internet troll whose comments have been criticized as racist, misogynist, anti-Muslim and white supremacist. He was banned from Twitter after leading a harassment campaign against “Ghostbusters” actress Leslie Jones.

As a general rule, I suspect if Trump continues to ignore non-violent protest, continuing his policies without showing any sign that protests will effect him, the protests aren't apt to stay non-violent.  I'm not advocating violent protest, but I anticipate protests are going to get more violent.  Trumps persona is not one that backs down.

I've been trying to watch the spiral of violence, and this does seem to break new ground, at least in recent history.  This was organized and thought through.  The black clad protestors were masked and had a uniform of sorts.  With video cameras everywhere these days, this seems prudent.  The style of uniform reminds me more of the KKK than the fascists of the 1930s.  The old fascists wore pseudo military outfits and left their faces exposed.  Still, if you are trying to ask whether a group more resembles the brownshirts or the KKK, they aren't nice people.

It does not remind me much of the 1960s protests.  There were few masks and no uniforms back then.  The crowds of protestors were much much larger.  Early days, though.

While the black clad agitators were reported as throwing molotov cocktails and commercial grade fireworks, there were apparently no major injuries?  While the action was correctly described as violent, this suggests that the protestors were ready to take it only so far.

The next question is whether this is a one off or a template for an ongoing series of incidents.  Also, will Trump escalate?  I've often said it takes two to spiral.  If both sides are trying to intimidate the other into backing down, things are most likely to get out of hand.  Since Ruby Ridge, Waco and OKC, the federals have treated right wing militants with kid gloves, trying not to escalate violence or create martyrs.  We'll see what Trump's approach is.  A true fascist demagogue might use the incident as an excuse to mobilize the secret police.  I personally don't think he is a true fascist demagogue, but we'll have a chance to find out.
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#10
(02-02-2017, 02:59 AM)Galen Wrote: Makes me wonder who the real fascists are?

I thought it was obvious months ago.
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#11
"Yep. The folks on the furthest extremes make a lot of noise and don't represent a lot of folk."

I view it like religion which is also a belief/value system like politics in which people identify with it as being a part of who they are. Fortunately I do keep an open mind and allow myself to listen to individuals who show me they are not like extremists or just others in general. This grounds me and allows me to see all the colours, not just the shades. Which brings me to the real truth on a one on one basis. My mind has been opened to the differences of beliefs within the same religion let alone different ones. The extremists, the ones who warp a message, the ones who leave people alone and focus on self development...heck it is all very personal. My mind has expanded and been blown by what I have learned and I am thankful for that.

The same would apply to politics as well as religion.

Now people should know why I value listening to people.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#12
(02-02-2017, 03:13 AM)taramarie Wrote: SOME have gone overboard yes. Both sides take away rights in the name of their freedom. Not all participate in it though.

Except, both sides don't.  Only one side regularly attacks people from the other side, or resorts to burning things down.

Now, I agree that only some progressives are engaging in organized violence.  Too many are apologists for this kind of inexcusable violence, though.

(02-02-2017, 04:15 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: As a general rule, I suspect if Trump continues to ignore non-violent protest, continuing his policies without showing any sign that protests will effect him, the protests aren't apt to stay non-violent.  I'm not advocating violent protest, but I anticipate protests are going to get more violent.  Trumps persona is not one that backs down.

I've been trying to watch the spiral of violence, and this does seem to break new ground, at least in recent history.  This was organized and thought through.  The black clad protestors were masked and had a uniform of sorts.  With video cameras everywhere these days, this seems prudent.  The style of uniform reminds me more of the KKK than the fascists of the 1930s.  The old fascists wore pseudo military outfits and left their faces exposed.  Still, if you are trying to ask whether a group more resembles the brownshirts or the KKK, they aren't nice people.

It does not remind me much of the 1960s protests.  There were few masks and no uniforms back then.  The crowds of protestors were much much larger.  Early days, though.

While the black clad agitators were reported as throwing molotov cocktails and commercial grade fireworks, there were apparently no major injuries?  While the action was correctly described as violent, this suggests that the protestors were ready to take it only so far.

Like that, for example.
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#13
"Except, both sides don't. Only one side regularly attacks people from the other side, or resorts to burning things down."

Ah I would have to disagree with you there. I have heard and seen too much to believe that. I may be a foreigner but I am not blind nor deaf.

Both sides participate in the viciousness. But not every single individual does.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#14
(02-02-2017, 04:21 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(02-02-2017, 02:59 AM)Galen Wrote: Makes me wonder who the real fascists are?

I thought it was obvious months ago.

As did I, but it seems best to remember the words of Robert Heinlein: Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.  So I like to point it out from time to time.

Interesting the Butler 54 understands the threat made by these protests but still doesn't understand Trump.  In my life I have never seen a President actually not retreat from his campaign promises but in fact actually carry them out and it seems likely that he is just getting started.  It's really odd to see in politicians but in the private sector you have to carry out your promises and maintain that reputation or go out of business and it would seem he is carrying that attitude into his Administration.

It seems unlikely that The Donald is going to change his style now so the Dem equivalent of the brown-shirts are going to be disappointed.  The ordinary working person will tire of their antics and cheer when they are locked up.  In the end Trump comes out better.  Come to think of it, I should thank them on Milo's behalf for the publicity they are providing and helping to spread his message
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
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#15
(02-02-2017, 03:57 AM)Galen Wrote:
(02-02-2017, 03:44 AM)taramarie Wrote: You know me, I treat everyone as an individual not defined by preconceived notions of what they are all like by my experience with some blue or red voters and the like. Sorry but people are not clones of each other and I prefer to keep it that way so my mind is kept open on that topic and not clouded by judgement. I have my reasons why and one of them is so open communication for each person is able to be done. I will not participate in smears of vast groups of people.

Know thy enemy.  I would prefer to be wrong but I am a realist and you know your enemy by what they do, say and write.  The left has and is making their intentions known:  No dissent allowed.

The Left has practically no power in America. It commands nothing. The Trump maladministration has an agenda of making almost all American serfs in all but names of rapacious plutocrats who believe that no human suffering is in excess so long as it enriches and pampers them or enforces their will. The only good things about Donald Trump are that he is so inept that he inspires contempt for his semi-fascist ideology and that he has yet to call for torture chambers, concentration camps, and execution pits. He has an analogue who did great (if unintended) harm because of his character,

Look how quiet America was when Barack Obama was President. The Tea Party Movement took much longer to develop than has the mass rallies that oppose "The Donald". There are plenty of issues to protest about when an unjust ruler insists that he is the supposed arbiter of truth for all time. Il Duce ha sempre raggione... Der Fuehrer hat immer rechts....  

Milo Yiannopoulis (correct the spelling) went to Berkeley to provoke  a response like the one that he got.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#16
(02-02-2017, 05:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(02-02-2017, 03:57 AM)Galen Wrote:
(02-02-2017, 03:44 AM)taramarie Wrote: You know me, I treat everyone as an individual not defined by preconceived notions of what they are all like by my experience with some blue or red voters and the like. Sorry but people are not clones of each other and I prefer to keep it that way so my mind is kept open on that topic and not clouded by judgement. I have my reasons why and one of them is so open communication for each person is able to be done. I will not participate in smears of vast groups of people.

Know thy enemy.  I would prefer to be wrong but I am a realist and you know your enemy by what they do, say and write.  The left has and is making their intentions known:  No dissent allowed.

Milo Yiannopoulis (correct the spelling) went to Berkeley to provoke  a response like the one that he got.

He may be a provocateur but he did not choose their response.

This points out what has been said before, the left feels morally justified in its violent response.  If this had come from Republicans, Libertarians or the alt right you would be demanding that they repudiate the people involved.  Interesting that is not happening.  Indeed you feel he was asking for it.  He was expressing ideas which you disagree.  Thank you for helping to make my point about the left.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
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#17
(02-02-2017, 04:31 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(02-02-2017, 03:13 AM)taramarie Wrote: SOME have gone overboard yes. Both sides take away rights in the name of their freedom. Not all participate in it though.

Except, both sides don't.  Only one side regularly attacks people from the other side, or resorts to burning things down.

Now, I agree that only some progressives are engaging in organized violence.  Too many are apologists for this kind of inexcusable violence, though.

(02-02-2017, 04:15 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: As a general rule, I suspect if Trump continues to ignore non-violent protest, continuing his policies without showing any sign that protests will effect him, the protests aren't apt to stay non-violent.  I'm not advocating violent protest, but I anticipate protests are going to get more violent.  Trumps persona is not one that backs down.

I've been trying to watch the spiral of violence, and this does seem to break new ground, at least in recent history.  This was organized and thought through.  The black clad protestors were masked and had a uniform of sorts.  With video cameras everywhere these days, this seems prudent.  The style of uniform reminds me more of the KKK than the fascists of the 1930s.  The old fascists wore pseudo military outfits and left their faces exposed.  Still, if you are trying to ask whether a group more resembles the brownshirts or the KKK, they aren't nice people.

It does not remind me much of the 1960s protests.  There were few masks and no uniforms back then.  The crowds of protestors were much much larger.  Early days, though.

While the black clad agitators were reported as throwing molotov cocktails and commercial grade fireworks, there were apparently no major injuries?  While the action was correctly described as violent, this suggests that the protestors were ready to take it only so far.

Like that, for example.

Too much of the conversation here is deciding which vile stereotype applies to whom.  I'm not interested in name calling, determining who is the fascist.  I'm not advocating violence.  Trying to understand what is going on is not the same as apologizing for what is going on.  Neither side reminds me particularly of the 1930s.  This moment in history is unique.

I am interested in how spirals of violence work.  It takes two to spiral.  If non-violence doesn't work, expect violence.  The government not responding to violence with violence helps defuse the spiral.  I believe the above principles would hold no matter which side is is protesting, and which side controls the government.

For decades, here, and in the old forum, various people have been predicting and advocating revolution, civil war, succession and other dire circumstances one might expect in a fourth turning.  My response has generally been to ask if people are seeing a spiral of violence escalating.  Up until this point, I haven't seen it.  The Ruby Ridge / Waco / OKC spiral died after OKC.  The Black Lives / Blue Lives Matter spiral was real, but didn't get beyond the lone shooter level.  Thus, you don't see me on threads concerned with things like California drifting out to sea, or various maps proposing red / blue divisions.

Here we have a fairly large organized group planning a violent act in such a way as they can get away and do it again.  While I don't have a great feel for Trump, it seems possible he won't respond gently, won't avoid escalating.

That could become a big deal.  It could be much more important than who calls who a fascist.

For the record, I intensely dislike where Yiannopoulos is coming from, what he is advocating.  However, I'll still favor free speech for deplorables... and the right to protest deplorables non-violently.  Yiannopoulos isn't worth significantly escalating a spiral of violence, though.
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#18
(02-02-2017, 04:42 AM)Galen Wrote: Interesting the Butler 54 understands the threat made by these protests but still doesn't understand Trump.  In my life I have never seen a President actually not retreat from his campaign promises but in fact actually carry them out and it seems likely that he is just getting started.  It's really odd to see in politicians but in the private sector you have to carry out your promises and maintain that reputation or go out of business and it would seem he is carrying that attitude into his Administration.

It seems unlikely that The Donald is going to change his style now so the Dem equivalent of the brown-shirts are going to be disappointed.  The ordinary working person will tire of their antics and cheer when they are locked up.  In the end Trump comes out better.  Come to think of it, I should thank them on Milo's behalf for the publicity they are providing and helping to spread his message

He's keeping most promises, with the notable exception of draining the swamp. If he wants a second term and a legacy, he's almost got to keep promises. He's got to keep his base happy. That much absolutely makes sense.

But he's still a narcissist. If someone opposes him, he will throw a hissy fit. It doesn't matter if the opposition is a former beauty queen or a head of state. If North Korea or Iran rattles a saber, I feel confident that Trump will show them he has a larger saber. His style features bombast and confrontation.

I've got a close friend who voted Trump. We recently spent a half hour running through issues. In the end we understood each other but didn't agree. It was clear to both of us that the other had thought through their position. I then went on to Trump's personality. I barely got started when he interrupted me. "Oh, yes. He's an (expletive deleted)." He made no attempt, zero, to defend Trump's personality or people skills. There, we agreed entirely.

It's the (expletive deleted) part that makes me nervous.

I'll add that I don't understand the black clad protestors either. Are they looking for their fifteen minutes of fame, or are they seriously out to escalate a spiral of violence? Do they just not like Yiannopoulos, or are they looking to destabilize the country? Obama, seeing violence starting to escalate, would likely try to defuse it. Trump? I tentatively expect a hissy fit. I could be wrong.

We'll see. Too soon for predictions. Soon enough to worry.
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#19
(02-02-2017, 06:46 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(02-02-2017, 04:31 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(02-02-2017, 03:13 AM)taramarie Wrote: SOME have gone overboard yes. Both sides take away rights in the name of their freedom. Not all participate in it though.

Except, both sides don't.  Only one side regularly attacks people from the other side, or resorts to burning things down.

Now, I agree that only some progressives are engaging in organized violence.  Too many are apologists for this kind of inexcusable violence, though.

(02-02-2017, 04:15 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: As a general rule, I suspect if Trump continues to ignore non-violent protest, continuing his policies without showing any sign that protests will effect him, the protests aren't apt to stay non-violent.  I'm not advocating violent protest, but I anticipate protests are going to get more violent.  Trumps persona is not one that backs down.

I've been trying to watch the spiral of violence, and this does seem to break new ground, at least in recent history.  This was organized and thought through.  The black clad protestors were masked and had a uniform of sorts.  With video cameras everywhere these days, this seems prudent.  The style of uniform reminds me more of the KKK than the fascists of the 1930s.  The old fascists wore pseudo military outfits and left their faces exposed.  Still, if you are trying to ask whether a group more resembles the brownshirts or the KKK, they aren't nice people.

It does not remind me much of the 1960s protests.  There were few masks and no uniforms back then.  The crowds of protestors were much much larger.  Early days, though.

While the black clad agitators were reported as throwing molotov cocktails and commercial grade fireworks, there were apparently no major injuries?  While the action was correctly described as violent, this suggests that the protestors were ready to take it only so far.

Like that, for example.

Too much of the conversation here is deciding which vile stereotype applies to whom.  I'm not interested in name calling, determining who is the fascist.  I'm not advocating violence.  Trying to understand what is going on is not the same as apologizing for what is going on.  Neither side reminds me particularly of the 1930s.  This moment in history is unique.

The trouble is that routinely the left engages in large scale violence far more that the right.  In many respects the Antifa people are behaving very much as the people they accuse Milo and everyone else they disagree with.  If they look like a duck and quack like a duck then I must consider the possibility that I have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on my hands.  The left for better or worse are choosing the tactics of the brown-shirts of long ago.  Maybe not all but the number are getting larger as time goes on.

If the people that the left hate so much these days are what they are accusing them of then they would have chosen the same tactic during the Obama Administration.  They did not.  These are not protestors but rather they are thugs and it is far past time they be described as such.  It is not a vile stereotype but rather the simple truth that you prefer to ignore.  I have lived among the left and the right and so I am in a good position to evaluate their behavior.  The conservatives, libertarians and religious right are no problem for me because all I have to do is leave them alone and they will leave me in peace.  I can not say this about the left.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
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#20
Quote:Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

-Karl Popper, The Open Society And Its Enemies

And before the usual suspects begin denouncing Popper, you should know that he is famous for his defense of Liberal Democracy against both Fascism and Marxism, and he was a close friend of Hayek. Popper wrote these lines at the height of WW2, when many of his fellow Jews were being exterminated in the concentration camps.

Milo Yianopoulos has no interest in reasonable discussion, he's a professional troll, like Ann Coulter, and like Coulter he likely doesn't even believe the BS he spews. His sole interest is in being as provocative as possible in order to incite protest so he can whine about "violent leftists" oppressing him, and thus help further radicalize his Fascist fuck followers. Giving him a platform for his bullshit just encourages his bullshit. He has no place on a college campus, whose purpose is for reasonable discussion.

And of course "Libertarians" like Galen show their true colors by cozying up to Fascism.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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