Countdown to a Free America

[Ragnarök_62]

(04-21-2018, 05:34 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(04-20-2018, 07:44 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(04-20-2018, 06:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Not sure which words are yours from this post, Rags, but first of all, the information I was offering or suggestions asked for were about presidential candidates and the horoscope scores, silly boy!

I think that's much better about Hillary (spelled correctly  )  The remark in the video, though, was just hyperbole on her part, and maybe some misplaced humor. She didn't conquer anything. Her and Obama's policy protected endangered civilians, and helped several powers facilitate the ongoing revolt by the Libyans against their dictator. That was not bad stuff. It didn't turn out too well, yet, but that's really on the Libyans, and it's there job to replace the dictator with a workable society. They didn't want Hillary's help in that, so she and Obama came, and saw-- and went.

I think your intuition about her was widely shared, and that is one reason she lost. She doesn't admit this, but the horoscope gives us an objective account and a score that reveals it.

I snipped out the stuff that just gets in the way.  First, on the information  you were offering, I can see the confusion.

I was referring to some post long time ago you had about doing folks' horoscopes. I asked if you'd do mine for free. You said no. So, I mixed that stuff in and added it to the information you offered in the most recent post. The confusion lies in which information Eric has specifically.   So... we just differ on "information you were offering or suggestions for..."

I assume you're all clear now. And I assume that neither you nor Classic Xer plan to run for president. Cynic Hero, I dunno; maybe he thinks he can.

Quote:As for Libya. OK, that's just a difference of opinion. The best phrase I can come up with is "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." I can also think of other reasons to get involved there. Qaddafi announced a gold dinar currency for N Africa which messed with the US need for having the world reserve currency. Libya also has a perennial favorite, oil. I also never heard anything about what regime we'd try to put up.  Honestly, I'm very cynical about this "protect civilians", some country needs democracy, and "national security interest".  Like WTF does "national security interest" really mean? I suppose we just disagree on military interventions which is fine. I just think it's stupid and arrogant that the US goes around trashing other countries while our own country has neglected places and people. Hypocrisy sucks, man.

I agree, and I think oil played a role in the decision to get involved in protecting Libyan citizens (which became helping them win their Revolution against Qaddafi), and NOT protecting Syrian citizens or helping them in THEIR Revolution against Assad. I have no info whether currency played a role in their decision or not, so I won't speculate, beyond the likelihood that oil played a role.

I do think that we are citizens of the world, and lawful nations (even if not always lawful) that respect human rights (even a little bit) have a role to play together to stop genocidal mass murder, preferably through the UN if possible. Staying out of others' business is usually a fine idea, but there are limits to most fine ideas. So there we probably do disagree.

Lots of folks make the good point that the USA should not go to war in Syria, but in order to support that point, many invent theories such as the Syrian Revolution is just Al Qaeda terrorists, or just Sunnis against Alowites, or even just the USA's war, and even deny that Assad has killed and tortured and exiled hundreds of thousands of folks. We may not agree with a USA invasion of Syria, or even with lobbing a few missiles against Syrian war facilities, and think that what's happening there is none of our f**king business, but that's no reason simply to deny the horrible facts of what Assad has done. We have to face up to the consequences of our decision and our isolationism, whatever they might be, and whether or not we know if getting involved would have improved things at all or not.

Wrt Libya it's a failed state now featuring a nice slave trade and let's face it, the folks living there have a horrible standard of living compared with when Qaddafi was in charge. So, IMHO they ended up with a situation far worse than before. It's the same story in Iraq. That's why assorted terror groups are there.  Terror groups love power vacuums. I also advocate for isolationism due to a shitpot of problems here in the US. It's time to come home and take care of our own folks. The US needs to redirect empire money for social programs like single payer, fund Social security, start working on infrastructure, etc. It's disgusting that the MSM has totally ignored a [url="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/01/un-extreme-poverty-america-special-rapporteur"] UN investigation on the US. [/utl]  These useful idiots for the top 1% are nowhere to be found when someone points out what a shithole country we have ourselves. I don't agree with Trump on too many things, but the MSM is completely useless. I don't even pay attention to them anymore, they're a waste of time.

Wrt, war crimes... OK how about some of our allies? Let's apply the same rules to lets say Israel and how it treats the Palestinians and Saudi Arabia's horrible war in Yemen?  Let's go bomb the fuck out of Tel Aviv and Riyadh. After all, the US is the shining city on the hilll and is all moral and stuff. We're number one and let's go prove it by applying the same rules to everyone, regardless. /sarc

To get real, let's contemplate what climate change cojoined with population overshoot. [I mean really, humans are just so dumb.  Humans are no smarter than bacteria in a petri dish.]  Humans are going to suffer the same fate as bacteria in a petri dish.  There's no more room or resources and I envision 100's of millions to billions are gonna die from the usual 4 horsemen, which are saddling up and are fixing to ride often and hard.  It's the same as always.   Today, the Middle East sandbox, tomorrow,  world wide. The US has a date with destiny like everyone else. The "liberal world order"'s gonna collapse from the upcoming shit storm which is lurking just off the horizon.

Remember the Population Bomb book? I do, and it's gonna happen before go.  Oh... yeah, there's a poem I stashed not long ago, I'll stop before getting redundant.

[Ragnarök_62]

(04-22-2018, 12:25 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(04-21-2018, 05:34 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(04-20-2018, 07:44 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(04-20-2018, 06:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Not sure which words are yours from this post, Rags, but first of all, the information I was offering or suggestions asked for were about presidential candidates and the horoscope scores, silly boy!

I think that's much better about Hillary (spelled correctly  )  The remark in the video, though, was just hyperbole on her part, and maybe some misplaced humor. She didn't conquer anything. Her and Obama's policy protected endangered civilians, and helped several powers facilitate the ongoing revolt by the Libyans against their dictator. That was not bad stuff. It didn't turn out too well, yet, but that's really on the Libyans, and it's there job to replace the dictator with a workable society. They didn't want Hillary's help in that, so she and Obama came, and saw-- and went.

I think your intuition about her was widely shared, and that is one reason she lost. She doesn't admit this, but the horoscope gives us an objective account and a score that reveals it.

I snipped out the stuff that just gets in the way.  First, on the information  you were offering, I can see the confusion.

I was referring to some post long time ago you had about doing folks' horoscopes. I asked if you'd do mine for free. You said no. So, I mixed that stuff in and added it to the information you offered in the most recent post. The confusion lies in which information Eric has specifically.   So... we just differ on "information you were offering or suggestions for..."

I assume you're all clear now. And I assume that neither you nor Classic Xer plan to run for president. Cynic Hero, I dunno; maybe he thinks he can.

Quote:As for Libya. OK, that's just a difference of opinion. The best phrase I can come up with is "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." I can also think of other reasons to get involved there. Qaddafi announced a gold dinar currency for N Africa which messed with the US need for having the world reserve currency. Libya also has a perennial favorite, oil. I also never heard anything about what regime we'd try to put up.  Honestly, I'm very cynical about this "protect civilians", some country needs democracy, and "national security interest".  Like WTF does "national security interest" really mean? I suppose we just disagree on military interventions which is fine. I just think it's stupid and arrogant that the US goes around trashing other countries while our own country has neglected places and people. Hypocrisy sucks, man.

I agree, and I think oil played a role in the decision to get involved in protecting Libyan citizens (which became helping them win their Revolution against Qaddafi), and NOT protecting Syrian citizens or helping them in THEIR Revolution against Assad. I have no info whether currency played a role in their decision or not, so I won't speculate, beyond the likelihood that oil played a role.

I do think that we are citizens of the world, and lawful nations (even if not always lawful) that respect human rights (even a little bit) have a role to play together to stop genocidal mass murder, preferably through the UN if possible. Staying out of others' business is usually a fine idea, but there are limits to most fine ideas. So there we probably do disagree.

Lots of folks make the good point that the USA should not go to war in Syria, but in order to support that point, many invent theories such as the Syrian Revolution is just Al Qaeda terrorists, or just Sunnis against Alowites, or even just the USA's war, and even deny that Assad has killed and tortured and exiled hundreds of thousands of folks. We may not agree with a USA invasion of Syria, or even with lobbing a few missiles against Syrian war facilities, and think that what's happening there is none of our f**king business, but that's no reason simply to deny the horrible facts of what Assad has done. We have to face up to the consequences of our decision and our isolationism, whatever they might be, and whether or not we know if getting involved would have improved things at all or not.

As for the horoscope thing. Folks get curious.  There's apps for what kind of dog you are, what country you are, etc.
Why not make your horoscope thing an app and make money.  I've seen far worse than horoscope stuff wrt apps.
Come to think of it, I might make an app for "what kind of trashcan are you?" in honor of Oscar the Grouch.

Wrt Libya it's a failed state now featuring a nice slave trade and let's face it, the folks living there have a horrible standard of living compared with when Qaddafi was in charge. So, IMHO they ended up with a situation far worse than before. It's the same story in Iraq. That's why assorted terror groups are there.  Terror groups love power vacuums. I also advocate for isolationism due to a shitpot of problems here in the US. It's time to come home and take care of our own folks. The US needs to redirect empire money for social programs like single payer, fund Social security, start working on infrastructure, etc. It's disgusting that the MSM has totally ignored a [url="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/01/un-extreme-poverty-america-special-rapporteur"] UN investigation on the US. [/utl]  These useful idiots for the top 1% are nowhere to be found when someone points out what a shithole country we have ourselves. I don't agree with Trump on too many things, but the MSM is completely useless. I don't even pay attention to them anymore, they're a waste of time.

Wrt, war crimes... OK how about some of our allies? Let's apply the same rules to lets say Israel and how it treats the Palestinians and Saudi Arabia's horrible war in Yemen?  Let's go bomb the fuck out of Tel Aviv and Riyadh. After all, the US is the shining city on the hilll and is all moral and stuff. We're number one and let's go prove it by applying the same rules to everyone, regardless. /sarc

To get real, let's contemplate what climate change cojoined with population overshoot. [I mean really, humans are just so dumb.  Humans are no smarter than bacteria in a petri dish.]  Humans are going to suffer the same fate as bacteria in a petri dish.  There's no more room or resources and I envision 100's of millions to billions are gonna die from the usual 4 horsemen, which are saddling up and are fixing to ride often and hard.  It's the same as always.   Today, the Middle East sandbox, tomorrow,  world wide. The US has a date with destiny like everyone else. The "liberal world order"'s gonna collapse from the upcoming shit storm which is lurking just off the horizon.

Remember the Population Bomb book? I do, and it's gonna happen before go.  Oh... yeah, there's a poem I stashed not long ago, I'll stop before getting redundant.

[Eric the Green]

(04-22-2018, 12:28 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(04-22-2018, 12:25 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(04-21-2018, 05:34 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(04-20-2018, 07:44 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(04-20-2018, 06:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Not sure which words are yours from this post, Rags, but first of all, the information I was offering or suggestions asked for were about presidential candidates and the horoscope scores, silly boy!

I think that's much better about Hillary (spelled correctly  )  The remark in the video, though, was just hyperbole on her part, and maybe some misplaced humor. She didn't conquer anything. Her and Obama's policy protected endangered civilians, and helped several powers facilitate the ongoing revolt by the Libyans against their dictator. That was not bad stuff. It didn't turn out too well, yet, but that's really on the Libyans, and it's there job to replace the dictator with a workable society. They didn't want Hillary's help in that, so she and Obama came, and saw-- and went.

I think your intuition about her was widely shared, and that is one reason she lost. She doesn't admit this, but the horoscope gives us an objective account and a score that reveals it.

I snipped out the stuff that just gets in the way.  First, on the information  you were offering, I can see the confusion.

I was referring to some post long time ago you had about doing folks' horoscopes. I asked if you'd do mine for free. You said no. So, I mixed that stuff in and added it to the information you offered in the most recent post. The confusion lies in which information Eric has specifically.   So... we just differ on "information you were offering or suggestions for..."

I assume you're all clear now. And I assume that neither you nor Classic Xer plan to run for president. Cynic Hero, I dunno; maybe he thinks he can.

Quote:As for Libya. OK, that's just a difference of opinion. The best phrase I can come up with is "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." I can also think of other reasons to get involved there. Qaddafi announced a gold dinar currency for N Africa which messed with the US need for having the world reserve currency. Libya also has a perennial favorite, oil. I also never heard anything about what regime we'd try to put up.  Honestly, I'm very cynical about this "protect civilians", some country needs democracy, and "national security interest".  Like WTF does "national security interest" really mean? I suppose we just disagree on military interventions which is fine. I just think it's stupid and arrogant that the US goes around trashing other countries while our own country has neglected places and people. Hypocrisy sucks, man.

I agree, and I think oil played a role in the decision to get involved in protecting Libyan citizens (which became helping them win their Revolution against Qaddafi), and NOT protecting Syrian citizens or helping them in THEIR Revolution against Assad. I have no info whether currency played a role in their decision or not, so I won't speculate, beyond the likelihood that oil played a role.

I do think that we are citizens of the world, and lawful nations (even if not always lawful) that respect human rights (even a little bit) have a role to play together to stop genocidal mass murder, preferably through the UN if possible. Staying out of others' business is usually a fine idea, but there are limits to most fine ideas. So there we probably do disagree.

Lots of folks make the good point that the USA should not go to war in Syria, but in order to support that point, many invent theories such as the Syrian Revolution is just Al Qaeda terrorists, or just Sunnis against Alowites, or even just the USA's war, and even deny that Assad has killed and tortured and exiled hundreds of thousands of folks. We may not agree with a USA invasion of Syria, or even with lobbing a few missiles against Syrian war facilities, and think that what's happening there is none of our f**king business, but that's no reason simply to deny the horrible facts of what Assad has done. We have to face up to the consequences of our decision and our isolationism, whatever they might be, and whether or not we know if getting involved would have improved things at all or not.

As for the horoscope thing. Folks get curious.  There's apps for what kind of dog you are, what country you are, etc.
Why not make your horoscope thing an app and make money.  I've seen far worse than horoscope stuff wrt apps.
Come to think of it, I might make an app for "what kind of trashcan are you?" in honor of Oscar the Grouch.

Wrt Libya it's a failed state now featuring a nice slave trade and let's face it, the folks living there have a horrible standard of living compared with when Qaddafi was in charge. So, IMHO they ended up with a situation far worse than before. It's the same story in Iraq. That's why assorted terror groups are there.  Terror groups love power vacuums. I also advocate for isolationism due to a shitpot of problems here in the US. It's time to come home and take care of our own folks. The US needs to redirect empire money for social programs like single payer, fund Social security, start working on infrastructure, etc. It's disgusting that the MSM has totally ignored a [url="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/01/un-extreme-poverty-america-special-rapporteur"] UN investigation on the US. [/utl]  These useful idiots for the top 1% are nowhere to be found when someone points out what a shithole country we have ourselves. I don't agree with Trump on too many things, but the MSM is completely useless. I don't even pay attention to them anymore, they're a waste of time.

Wrt, war crimes... OK how about some of our allies? Let's apply the same rules to lets say Israel and how it treats the Palestinians and Saudi Arabia's horrible war in Yemen?  Let's go bomb the fuck out of Tel Aviv and Riyadh. After all, the US is the shining city on the hilll and is all moral and stuff. We're number one and let's go prove it by applying the same rules to everyone, regardless. /sarc

To get real, let's contemplate what climate change cojoined with population overshoot. [I mean really, humans are just so dumb.  Humans are no smarter than bacteria in a petri dish.]  Humans are going to suffer the same fate as bacteria in a petri dish.  There's no more room or resources and I envision 100's of millions to billions are gonna die from the usual 4 horsemen, which are saddling up and are fixing to ride often and hard.  It's the same as always.   Today, the Middle East sandbox, tomorrow,  world wide. The US has a date with destiny like everyone else. The "liberal world order"'s gonna collapse from the upcoming shit storm which is lurking just off the horizon.

Remember the Population Bomb book? I do, and it's gonna happen before go.  Oh... yeah, there's a poem I stashed not long ago, I'll stop before getting redundant.

I don't even have a cell/smart phone yet, so I don't know how to make apps. I'm still low tech and hoping to publish a book with this in it someday. If I get over my depression over how hard it is to deal with some people....

The stories of Iraq and Syria are in no way the same. We need to say things accurately and be fact based if we want to end wars. Libya had a revolution undergone by their own people, and Western powers stepped in to protect them. Iraq was invaded by a renegade Western power (The Bush White House) in order to further an agenda for a New American Century. The results may have been bad in both cases, provided room for terrorists (far more in Iraq), and Libya may be worse off than before. But let's start from a foundation of facts. I agree about spending our tax money here at home; we boomers said that back in the day. Blanket statements about the MSM, like most blanket statements, have a grain of truth, but many exceptions. But I know it's easier just to condemn them all, but I enjoy getting some news, and they do have some news to provide. As long as I have other non-MSM sources too; the more different sources the better.

Yes, Israel is thuggish too; no question. Not anywhere near on the scale of Assad, but still, what they are doing now is horrible, and so is supporting the Yemen civil war. I wouldn't mind if somehow Netanyahu were overthrown too in a Revolution, and The West supported the rebels. At least they have an election process, however, unlike Syria and Libya, which I wish they would wise up and use properly. Hey, that reminds me of what another country needs to do nowadays.....

PBS had an excellent program on Nova about climate change this week..... and they ended by saying that the greatest variable in predicting the future of climate change, is us. We humans. And our politics.

[David Horn]

(04-21-2018, 01:59 PM)Another Xer Wrote: Why would the SJW crowd be averse to the economic agenda I outlined?

To be honest, I don't understand it either, but I've watched as people have engaged others with these ideas and gotten slammed as insensitive. Even thoughtful people who should be open to this seem to need assurance that their interests will come first. While sitting for hours on the tarmac waiting for our plane to get the go ahead to leave, I engaged with the woman next to me. She is a second generation Haitian-American: a well educated, well paid pharmaceutical rep (by her own description), but every time I tried to raise the issue of economic growth, she raised the issue of racial disparity -- even though she was not a victim herself.

The tribalism has taken over. I don't have an answer to that.

[David Horn]

(04-21-2018, 05:08 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I have no concern that the SJW faction will cry foul over any of this. It's what they want too. They just want to make sure that their groups' interests are also protected from injustice, which is a very real concern, and which itself causes a lot of the economic inequality. We all need to see that it's all connected; then the "gap" is bridged without any doubt. Trickle-down, give-breaks-to-job-creaters nonsense-economics cannot exist without appealing to the fears and prejudice of those who don't want to pay for others' government welfare benefits. And the "others" that they mean, are the same people whom the SJWs speak up for.

There is distrust everywhere. Did Bernie Sanders' message resonate outside the liberal white audience? Not very much.

[Ragnarök_62]

(04-21-2018, 05:08 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(04-21-2018, 08:15 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-20-2018, 12:09 PM)Another Xer Wrote:

(04-20-2018, 09:30 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-19-2018, 08:17 PM)Another Xer Wrote: I stopped at "(Hillary's) a member of the axis of evil."

I'm sure you can do better.

It's an Internet Forum!  Hyperbole is a given.  Rags had plenty of good points you chose to ignore for semantic reasons.  Just address this: how do we get from here to some measure of equanimity?  We don't need absolute equality in all things, but we need a system that prevents the very few from taking it all, and leaves room for people to be people, not robots.

The first thing we have to do is raise taxes on wealth.  Capital gains, dividends, and estates.  People focus on income taxes because it's what they know about, but the taxes that the ultra-wealthy people pay are capital gains, dividends, and estates.  That's why people like Mitt Romney pay a tax rate of 15% - 20%, while hard working educated professionals pay double that - the professionals are paying income taxes.  They vote Republican because they think the Republicans are protecting their taxes but they are wrong.  Nobody is looking out for hard working educated professionals.  They are the big cash-bag that the plutocrats in charge use to fund government.

1. Capital gains and dividends should be taxed at the same rate as income.  The counterargument is that lower taxes on capital helps generate investment - I don't see any basis for that.  It's just an argument served up by the wealthy to serve the wealthy.  It's certainly not true in the current environment where the wealthy have so much money they don't know what to do, and are inflating all kinds of assets in search of yield but they can't find productive investment because the middle class is broke.  Tax it.
2. Use the money to fund infrastructure jobs across the country.  Get people working again and rebuild this country.
3. Change to singlepayer health insurance that covers everybody.  All available data on this from other countries shows it should lower costs, rather than raise costs.  Our for-profit system is the most inefficient in the world.  Too many middle-men. 
4. Raise the minimum wage, incrementally, and with geographic disparities taken into account.  

To me, that is a start.  It may solve 20% of the problem or 50% of the problem or 100% of the problem - I don't know.  Enact it and reassess in a few years to see what, if any, additional steps need to be taken.

You get no argument from me on this.  In fact, it's the only viable alternative from the left.  But here's the rub.  The SJW faction will cry foul and simply won't support that agenda.  I don't have the foggiest idea how to bridge that gap, because many of the social problems have an economic base.  

You only missed two issues I wish to add: basic competence and climate change.  Without the first, nothing gets done ... much like today.  The second is existential, but under the radar for now.  It needs to be emphasized.  Transitioning to clean energy has an economic benefit too, so that should be non-controversial.  Of course, it is.

And gun control may be a viable issue too, if young people press for it. It's certainly been needed for a long, long time. But persistent American mythology has kept us connected to the gun.

Of course, not everything can be done all at once; that's true. Income taxes also need to be raised on wealthier people. Things will roll once the 2020s get going.

I have no concern that the SJW faction will cry foul over any of this. It's what they want too. They just want to make sure that their groups' interests are also protected from injustice, which is a very real concern, and which itself causes a lot of the economic inequality. We all need to see that it's all connected; then the "gap" is bridged without any doubt. Trickle-down, give-breaks-to-job-creaters nonsense-economics cannot exist without appealing to the fears and prejudice of those who don't want to pay for others' government welfare benefits. And the "others" that they mean, are the same people whom the SJWs speak up for.

Gun control is another agenda item that's a fail.  Again, this simplistic idea of focusing on an object, guns is weird.
Will a ban work?  Nope, it has the same idea as "drug control". Has banning drugs worked? no. Here's what I see if the guns are banned agenda happens. I see burgeoning black market for gunz just like we have with drugs.  If I thought gun bans would work, I'd go for it. I will not support agendas which will fail. As for the SJW's  , fuck I don't know, naive and their youthful indiscretions so annoying.   Anyhow, "drugs, sex, fun , we're the class of '81" is certainly more laid back and cool.

Speaking of the past, here's a article.   It makes sense for us that were "there", but lots of lessons have been forgotten.

[Eric the Green]

(04-24-2018, 05:45 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(04-21-2018, 05:08 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(04-21-2018, 08:15 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-20-2018, 12:09 PM)Another Xer Wrote:

(04-20-2018, 09:30 AM)David Horn Wrote: It's an Internet Forum!  Hyperbole is a given.  Rags had plenty of good points you chose to ignore for semantic reasons.  Just address this: how do we get from here to some measure of equanimity?  We don't need absolute equality in all things, but we need a system that prevents the very few from taking it all, and leaves room for people to be people, not robots.

The first thing we have to do is raise taxes on wealth.  Capital gains, dividends, and estates.  People focus on income taxes because it's what they know about, but the taxes that the ultra-wealthy people pay are capital gains, dividends, and estates.  That's why people like Mitt Romney pay a tax rate of 15% - 20%, while hard working educated professionals pay double that - the professionals are paying income taxes.  They vote Republican because they think the Republicans are protecting their taxes but they are wrong.  Nobody is looking out for hard working educated professionals.  They are the big cash-bag that the plutocrats in charge use to fund government.

1. Capital gains and dividends should be taxed at the same rate as income.  The counterargument is that lower taxes on capital helps generate investment - I don't see any basis for that.  It's just an argument served up by the wealthy to serve the wealthy.  It's certainly not true in the current environment where the wealthy have so much money they don't know what to do, and are inflating all kinds of assets in search of yield but they can't find productive investment because the middle class is broke.  Tax it.
2. Use the money to fund infrastructure jobs across the country.  Get people working again and rebuild this country.
3. Change to singlepayer health insurance that covers everybody.  All available data on this from other countries shows it should lower costs, rather than raise costs.  Our for-profit system is the most inefficient in the world.  Too many middle-men. 
4. Raise the minimum wage, incrementally, and with geographic disparities taken into account.  

To me, that is a start.  It may solve 20% of the problem or 50% of the problem or 100% of the problem - I don't know.  Enact it and reassess in a few years to see what, if any, additional steps need to be taken.

You get no argument from me on this.  In fact, it's the only viable alternative from the left.  But here's the rub.  The SJW faction will cry foul and simply won't support that agenda.  I don't have the foggiest idea how to bridge that gap, because many of the social problems have an economic base.  

You only missed two issues I wish to add: basic competence and climate change.  Without the first, nothing gets done ... much like today.  The second is existential, but under the radar for now.  It needs to be emphasized.  Transitioning to clean energy has an economic benefit too, so that should be non-controversial.  Of course, it is.

And gun control may be a viable issue too, if young people press for it. It's certainly been needed for a long, long time. But persistent American mythology has kept us connected to the gun.

Of course, not everything can be done all at once; that's true. Income taxes also need to be raised on wealthier people. Things will roll once the 2020s get going.

I have no concern that the SJW faction will cry foul over any of this. It's what they want too. They just want to make sure that their groups' interests are also protected from injustice, which is a very real concern, and which itself causes a lot of the economic inequality. We all need to see that it's all connected; then the "gap" is bridged without any doubt. Trickle-down, give-breaks-to-job-creaters nonsense-economics cannot exist without appealing to the fears and prejudice of those who don't want to pay for others' government welfare benefits. And the "others" that they mean, are the same people whom the SJWs speak up for.

Gun control is another agenda item that's a fail.  Again, this simplistic idea of focusing on an object, guns is weird.
Will a ban work?  Nope, it has the same idea as "drug control". Has banning drugs worked? no. Here's what I see if the guns are banned agenda happens. I see burgeoning black market for gunz just like we have with drugs.  If I thought gun bans would work, I'd go for it. I will not support agendas which will fail. As for the SJW's  , fuck I don't know, naive and their youthful indiscretions so annoying.   Anyhow, "drugs, sex, fun , we're the class of '81" is certainly more laid back and cool.

Speaking of the past, here's a article.   It makes sense for us that were "there", but lots of lessons have been forgotten.

Same o same o. No use going over the same arguments again and again.

One thing I forgot to add to my reply to David, is that the economic problems also in many cases have a social base. They are intertwined. So an alliance is needed. Whether it happens remains to be seen.

[Eric the Green]

(04-24-2018, 01:45 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-21-2018, 05:08 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I have no concern that the SJW faction will cry foul over any of this. It's what they want too. They just want to make sure that their groups' interests are also protected from injustice, which is a very real concern, and which itself causes a lot of the economic inequality. We all need to see that it's all connected; then the "gap" is bridged without any doubt. Trickle-down, give-breaks-to-job-creaters nonsense-economics cannot exist without appealing to the fears and prejudice of those who don't want to pay for others' government welfare benefits. And the "others" that they mean, are the same people whom the SJWs speak up for.

There is distrust everywhere.  Did Bernie Sanders' message resonate outside the liberal white audience?  Not very much.

Maybe he wasn't quite the right voice. Do we really know if Sanders would have mobilized them as the nominee? Hillary had a lot of credibility, because of her background in helping them, despite many white liberals calling her neo-liberal and corporate. The white liberals exaggerated Hillary's defects, and the non-whites gave her a pass on them.

Hillary didn't have the candidate skills to win though. For the presidency, this is everything. I think because of Mitch Landrieu's courage in taking down the confederate statues, for which he won a profiles in courage award and got a book deal, as well as his skill in helping New Orleans' recovery, he may have the credibility to appeal to the non-white tribes. He has the needed candidate skills, has the recognition of his fellow mayors, and seems to have a progressive agenda overall. So, it depends whether the white Democrats and their elites will support a white progressive mayor for president, and whether he decides to go for it.

[Another Xer]

(04-24-2018, 01:39 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-21-2018, 01:59 PM)Another Xer Wrote: Why would the SJW crowd be averse to the economic agenda I outlined?

To be honest, I don't understand it either, but I've watched as people have engaged others with these ideas and gotten slammed as insensitive.  Even thoughtful people who should be open to this seem to need assurance that their interests will come first.  While sitting for hours on the tarmac waiting for our plane to get the go ahead to leave, I engaged with the woman next to me.  She is a second generation Haitian-American: a well educated, well paid pharmaceutical rep (by her own description), but every time I tried to raise the issue of economic growth, she raised the issue of racial disparity -- even though she was not a victim herself.

The tribalism has taken over.  I don't have an answer to that.

Ah, well, we all have anecdotes.

[David Horn]

(04-24-2018, 05:45 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: ... Speaking of the past, here's a article.   It makes sense for us that were "there", but lots of lessons have been forgotten.

My one run-in with the FBI involved my knowledge of Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn (for the record, I had none).  My problem with them, and most other hype-zealots, is their intense focus on one aspect of a problem to the total exclusion of everything else.  Yes, the US has a lot of really bead actions to account form but, on balance, the world in general is even worse.  Fixing the US, if that's even possible, needs to account for that too.

[David Horn]

(04-24-2018, 08:35 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(04-24-2018, 01:45 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-21-2018, 05:08 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I have no concern that the SJW faction will cry foul over any of this. It's what they want too. They just want to make sure that their groups' interests are also protected from injustice, which is a very real concern, and which itself causes a lot of the economic inequality. We all need to see that it's all connected; then the "gap" is bridged without any doubt. Trickle-down, give-breaks-to-job-creaters nonsense-economics cannot exist without appealing to the fears and prejudice of those who don't want to pay for others' government welfare benefits. And the "others" that they mean, are the same people whom the SJWs speak up for.

There is distrust everywhere.  Did Bernie Sanders' message resonate outside the liberal white audience?  Not very much.

Maybe he wasn't quite the right voice. Do we really know if Sanders would have mobilized them as the nominee? Hillary had a lot of credibility, because of her background in helping them, despite many white liberals calling her neo-liberal and corporate. The white liberals exaggerated Hillary's defects, and the non-whites gave her a pass on them.

Hillary didn't have the candidate skills to win though. For the presidency, this is everything. I think because of Mitch Landrieu's courage in taking down the confederate statues, for which he won a profiles in courage award and got a book deal, as well as his skill in helping New Orleans' recovery, he may have the credibility to appeal to the non-white tribes. He has the needed candidate skills, has the recognition of his fellow mayors, and seems to have a progressive agenda overall. So, it depends whether the white Democrats and their elites will support a white progressive mayor for president, and whether he decides to go for it.

As long as trust is not achievable, progress will be held at bay.  Worse still, that trust can't be obtained through the political process.  It's a social asset and needs to be acquired there, in the culture at large.  The only possible political action that might move that along: remove the power of money from politics.  If you have a plan to accomplish that, I would love to hear it.  FDR tried to pack the SCOTUS under similar pressures, and it failed.  I doubt it would succeed today either.  That makes getting there a long slog.

[David Horn]

(04-24-2018, 08:43 PM)Another Xer Wrote:

(04-24-2018, 01:39 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-21-2018, 01:59 PM)Another Xer Wrote: Why would the SJW crowd be averse to the economic agenda I outlined?

To be honest, I don't understand it either, but I've watched as people have engaged others with these ideas and gotten slammed as insensitive.  Even thoughtful people who should be open to this seem to need assurance that their interests will come first.  While sitting for hours on the tarmac waiting for our plane to get the go ahead to leave, I engaged with the woman next to me.  She is a second generation Haitian-American: a well educated, well paid pharmaceutical rep (by her own description), but every time I tried to raise the issue of economic growth, she raised the issue of racial disparity -- even though she was not a victim herself.

The tribalism has taken over.  I don't have an answer to that.

Ah, well, we all have anecdotes.

Yes, this is one case in many, but 'anecdote' is a good description, though I've found that to be true in general.  I live in an area that is bright Red.  The attitudes among that subset of the US demographic are just as biased and immune to argument.  I've tried as have many others.  Push too hard, and you make matters worse.  Facts?  They have no power over strongly held opinions, regardless of the holder or the opinions themselves.  If may be possible to offer something so new that no countervailing opinions yet exist, but I can't find any that makes sense to me.  How about you?

[Ragnarök_62]

(04-25-2018, 09:37 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-24-2018, 05:45 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: ... Speaking of the past, here's a article.   It makes sense for us that were "there", but lots of lessons have been forgotten.

My one run-in with the FBI involved my knowledge of Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn (for the record, I had none).  My problem with them, and most other hype-zealots, is their intense focus on one aspect of a problem to the total exclusion of everything else.  Yes, the US has a lot of really bead actions to account form but, on balance, the world in general is even worse.  Fixing the US, if that's even possible, needs to account for that too.

Hype-zealots:  I'm thinking of antifa here. I'm betting the long term fate of antifa is pretty much the same as for Weather Underground. Antifa plays into neo-nazis by assuring the neo-nazis press play. Antifa also alienates more moderate folks as well.

Black lives matter has a few problems as well. The call for reparations will go nowhere without making a huge mess of things. One only has to look at Zimbabwe and now South Africa as well. Of course, racism should be addressed not only for fairness, but social stability. The war on drugs needs to stop, just blowing off poor folks of all races needs to stop, etc. Environmental justice is also a good idea. It's insane that we're not nation building here. Isn't that a "national security interest" ?. It should be. Fix places like New Orleans and Flint first. There are lots of poor folk stuck in polluted neighborhoods because they don't matter, but the largest tax payer is the local oil refinery. Local government won't do squat when that happens. East Houston has lots of folks getting poisoned by benzene emissions.

... What was old , is new again. It's getting so weird. We have Trump, but I haven't heard anyone do a retrospective of the 2T and how it relates to what's going down now. The big picture is lacking.

[Eric the Green]

(04-25-2018, 11:11 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(04-25-2018, 09:37 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-24-2018, 05:45 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: ... Speaking of the past, here's a article.   It makes sense for us that were "there", but lots of lessons have been forgotten.

My one run-in with the FBI involved my knowledge of Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn (for the record, I had none).  My problem with them, and most other hype-zealots, is their intense focus on one aspect of a problem to the total exclusion of everything else.  Yes, the US has a lot of really bead actions to account form but, on balance, the world in general is even worse.  Fixing the US, if that's even possible, needs to account for that too.

Hype-zealots:  I'm thinking of antifa here. I'm betting the long term fate of antifa is pretty much the same as for Weather Underground. Antifa plays into neo-nazis by assuring the neo-nazis press play. Antifa also alienates more moderate folks as well.

Black lives matter has a few problems as well. The call for reparations will go nowhere without making a huge mess of things. One only has to look at Zimbabwe and now South Africa as well. Of course, racism should be addressed not only for fairness, but social stability. The war on drugs needs to stop, just blowing off poor folks of all races needs to stop, etc. Environmental justice is also a good idea. It's insane that we're not nation building here. Isn't that a "national security interest" ?. It should be. Fix places like New Orleans and Flint first. There are lots of poor folk stuck in polluted neighborhoods because they don't matter, but the largest tax payer is the local oil refinery. Local government won't do squat when that happens. East Houston has lots of folks getting poisoned by benzene emissions.

... What was old , is new again. It's getting so weird. We have Trump, but I haven't heard anyone do a retrospective of the 2T and how it relates to what's going down now. The big picture is lacking.

It's evident that many civil rights issues from the 2T are back, and are being incited by Trump and the alt right. So that's one way in which the new movements, concerns, ideas and discoveries from the 2T are coming up to get more resolved (I hope) in the 4T, just as the theory says they should. The environment is another such issue. Climate change, environmental racism, loss of habitat for species, pollution problems like runaway plastic in the oceans, acid rain and dumping of coal ash; these and more remain to be resolved from the 2T ideal of ecology awareness, dramatized so well on Earth Day 1970. The dangers of extremist 2T radicals may be returning too, if you are right Rags. 

I'm not so sure about that, but it's clear that starting in 1964 with the 2T, we entered the era we are still in, with our country divided along the same lines as were drawn then. The revival of 19th century trickle-down economics by Goldwater and his leading advocate and later president Ronald Reagan has dominated politics since the late 2T, so in our 4T we must decide whether to jettison it and return to a neo-New Deal like approach, or continue down our current road to banana republic and upstairs-downstairs status. And in foreign policy, the questions left over from Vietnam about how and whether to police the world remain as well. Whether today's terrorism methods that now threaten safety in The West descend from the terrorist groups from the late 1960s and 1970s (e.g. the PLO attack on the Olympics, the Red Guards of Italy, etc.) is another question.

And the culture wars are not entirely over. Not only do diversity issues still linger, with many approaching resolution and left victory, while others remain, but the war on drugs begun in the 2T along with the marijuana and LSD revolutions, with some left victories for legalizations there as well, are continuing the resolution of 2T issues. Also, whether resurgent materialism and scientism among millennials, such as those working with and censoring wikipedia, has stalled the psychedelic, occult and spirituality consciousness movement from the sixties, and swept it all back under the rug for another generation or two, or whether now there is resurgent interest in alternative spirituality and consciousness expansion today, as well as new interest in psychedelics, or whether it all must await the next 2T, is all still unresolved.

[pbrower2a]

For children being separated from their parents at ICE facilities,

945 days
22699 hours
1361959 minutes
81717581 seconds

until Wednesday, January 20, 2021 at 9:00:00 am (Sunnyvale time)
Zoom

It is 945 days, 19 hours, 19 minutes, 41 seconds

until Wednesday, January 20, 2021 at 9:00:00 am (Sunnyvale time)

One hour wrong? Daylight Saving Time!

Current time is Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 2:40:19 pm PDT (local time in Sunnyvale)

is still far too long.

Likewise for what I assume are loving parents.

[pbrower2a]

On the 74th anniversary of the assassination attempt on Adolf Hitler (let us hope that things never get that bad in America!) and the 39th anniversary of Neil Armstrong steppi9ng onto the lunar surface....

Inauguration 2021

914 days
21949 hours
1316945 minutes
79016708 seconds

until Wednesday, January 20, 2021 at 9:00:00 am (Sunnyvale time)


It is 914 days, 13 hours, 5 minutes, 8 seconds

[pbrower2a]

Inauguration 2021

295 days
7089 hours
425351 minutes
25521081 seconds
until Wednesday, January 20, 2021 at 9:00:00 am (Sunnyvale time)

It is 295 days, 9 hours, 11 minutes, 21 seconds

until Wednesday, January 20, 2021 at 9:00:00 am (Sunnyvale time)

One hour wrong? Daylight Saving Time!

...as the DJIA has negated all gains in securities markets while Trump has been President, and when COVID-19 is exacting casualties that one associates with a war going badly.

...and our current, dreadful President sees himself as the best thing to have ever happened to America.

[beechnut79]

(03-31-2020, 02:53 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Inauguration 2021

295 days
7089 hours
425351 minutes
25521081 seconds
until Wednesday, January 20, 2021 at 9:00:00 am (Sunnyvale time)

It is 295 days, 9 hours, 11 minutes, 21 seconds

until Wednesday, January 20, 2021 at 9:00:00 am (Sunnyvale time)

One hour wrong? Daylight Saving Time!

...as the DJIA has negated all gains in securities markets while Trump has been President, and when COVID-19 is exacting casualties that one associates with a war going badly.

...and our current, dreadful President sees himself as the best thing to have ever happened to America.

Daylight Saving time is not in effect in January. Does it now seem strange that back in the opening days of this month that there was a lot of controversy over continuing the practice of changing our clocks twice a year. Seems so trivial now, doesn’t it?  Year round DST was tried once in the 1970s but was pulled back because there were so many complaints about children waiting for school buses in the dark. Has this all been forgotten in the current push toward year-round DST?