The Atlantic: Is Trump Dragging Down the European Far-Right?

[Odin]

Worse-than-expected results for the Netherlands’s Geert Wilders are only the latest sign that the American president’s poor standing is harming politicians aligned with him.

[Kinser79]

This article is garbage. First off the PVV went from the third party in a proportional system to second. Yes they didn't pick up as many seats as they wanted--no one ever does in such a system, however, the VVD either has to form coalition with far left groups ideologically repugnant to them (VVD is classified as Center Right) or PVV since the Center Left Labor party was obliterated in the election.

Considering the Atlantic was wrong all through the US election I have no confidence in their "analysis" if you can call it that of Dutch elections.

[pbrower2a]

(03-19-2017, 03:44 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: This article is garbage.  First off the PVV went from the third party in a proportional system to second.  Yes they didn't pick up as many seats as they wanted--no one ever does in such a system,  however, the VVD either has to form coalition with far left groups ideologically repugnant to them (VVD is classified as Center Right) or PVV since the Center Left Labor party was obliterated in the election.

The Dutch have a true multi-party system that requires that practically all governments be coalition governments. Nobody wants to deal with Wilders and his PVV.

Quote:Considering the Atlantic was wrong all through the US election I have no confidence in their "analysis" if you can call it that of Dutch elections.

The only people wrong about the 2016 election in the USA were... just about everyone who was not a true believer in Donald Trump. Those who saw a crushing defeat of the Democrats sounded as if they were participating in wishful thinking.

Long-shots occasionally win horse races. Teams seeded #7 in basketball tournaments and tennis players seeded #7 in tennis occasionally defeat teams ranked #1. Yes, it is possible that the Detroit Lions will win the next Superbowl.

Government of the moneyed elites, by the moneyed elites, and for the moneyed elites is an evident possibility with any pol who melds racism or religious bigotry with vague populism. Donald Trump has shown a way that just doesn't look so good anymore.

[Odin]

(03-19-2017, 03:44 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: This article is garbage.  First off the PVV went from the third party in a proportional system to second.  Yes they didn't pick up as many seats as they wanted--no one ever does in such a system,  however, the VVD either has to form coalition with far left groups ideologically repugnant to them (VVD is classified as Center Right) or PVV since the Center Left Labor party was obliterated in the election.

Considering the Atlantic was wrong all through the US election I have no confidence in their "analysis" if you can call it that of Dutch elections.

Wilders is so extreme and unwilling to compromise on his insane views that nobody is willing to form a coalition with his party, so that he went from 3rd to 2nd because of the Labor Party's weakness is irrelevant.

[Kinser79]

(03-20-2017, 06:49 AM)Odin Wrote:

(03-19-2017, 03:44 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: This article is garbage.  First off the PVV went from the third party in a proportional system to second.  Yes they didn't pick up as many seats as they wanted--no one ever does in such a system,  however, the VVD either has to form coalition with far left groups ideologically repugnant to them (VVD is classified as Center Right) or PVV since the Center Left Labor party was obliterated in the election.

Considering the Atlantic was wrong all through the US election I have no confidence in their "analysis" if you can call it that of Dutch elections.

Wilders is so extreme and unwilling to compromise on his insane views that nobody is willing to form a coalition with his party, so that he went from 3rd to 2nd because of the Labor Party's weakness is irrelevant.

Hardly.  It isn't the "Crushing Defeat" that the Lugenpresse has been making it out to be. (Honestly I'm not terribly surprised, Mr. Maddow's scoop of the week was "Donald Trump pays taxes".) It is about the same results as the Right Wing Analysts forecasted.  What was unexpected was that the Labor vote would dissolve and end up voting for the much more extreme left parties.

Everything from Marxist-Leninist parties to the Green-Left. 

What makes the fact that VVD has to form a coalition either with Wilders or with the disparate Left-Wing groups means one of two things:

1.  Coalition with Wilders and he gets to push at least some of his agenda.
2.  Coalition with the Left and nothing gets done for X years or until there is a vote of no-confidence.

If VVD is serious about governing for the next term then there is only one choice.  If they choose coalition with the disparate Left parties then the Dutch will be back at the polls quickly--with massive losses for the VVD.

[Kinser79]

(03-20-2017, 02:39 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(03-19-2017, 03:44 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: This article is garbage.  First off the PVV went from the third party in a proportional system to second.  Yes they didn't pick up as many seats as they wanted--no one ever does in such a system,  however, the VVD either has to form coalition with far left groups ideologically repugnant to them (VVD is classified as Center Right) or PVV since the Center Left Labor party was obliterated in the election.

The Dutch have a true multi-party system that requires that practically all governments be coalition governments. Nobody wants to deal with Wilders and his PVV.

Quote:Considering the Atlantic was wrong all through the US election I have no confidence in their "analysis" if you can call it that of Dutch elections.

The only people wrong about the 2016 election in the USA were... just about everyone who was not a true believer in Donald Trump. Those who saw a crushing defeat of the Democrats sounded as if they were participating in wishful thinking.

Long-shots occasionally win horse races. Teams seeded #7 in basketball tournaments and tennis players seeded #7 in tennis occasionally defeat teams ranked #1. Yes, it is possible that the Detroit Lions will win the next Superbowl.

Government of the moneyed elites, by the moneyed elites, and for the moneyed elites is an evident possibility with any pol who melds racism or religious bigotry with vague populism. Donald Trump has shown a way that just doesn't look so good anymore.

1.  The Dutch have a proportional representative government that allows for multi-party systems.

2.   Everyone in the lugenpresse was wrong about the US election.  I find it fascinating though that HRC had the money, the press and hollyweird on her side and she still lost.

3.  The Dims have been losing seats and states since 2010.  Not really a surprise there.

4.  The left still has yet to demonstrate that Donald Trump is racially, or religiously bigoted.  Indeed, I don't think they can, cause if he were they would have "exposed" it by now.

[Ragnarök_62]

Damn!  The EU is a sack of shit.

[pbrower2a]

(03-20-2017, 03:25 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

Quote:1.  The Dutch have a proportional representative government that allows for multi-party systems.

Also a parliamentary system which requires that people act responsibly to be attractive as coalition partners. That's not how we have things. Our Parties are preset coalitions.

Quote:2.   Everyone in the (mainstream media)  was wrong about the US election.  I find it fascinating though that HRC had the money, the press and (Hollywood) on her side and she still lost.

Some of the moneyed elites were scared of him -- but once President, Donald Trump sold out the common man to get their favor. The common man who voted for President Trump has been had, and knows it, unless "deplorable". He was seen as a demagogue, but he has proved useful to the most rapacious elements in American life by standing for economic hustles, for tax cuts on behalf of the Master Class, against the environment, and (soon enough, I predict) against unions.

Quote:3.  The (Democrats)  have been losing seats and states since 2010.  Not really a surprise there.

I can't predict how unpopular President Trump will be in November 2008 -- but all House seats are up for grabs. An unpopular President and an unpopular Congress creates a "Throw the bums out" climate. This time it more likely hurts the Republican Party. I expect that pattern to be as reliable with Trump as with Obama.

Quote:4.  The left still has yet to demonstrate that Donald Trump is racially, or religiously bigoted.  Indeed, I don't think they can, cause if he were they would have "exposed" it by now.

He is doing an excellent job of proving that himself. He needs no help from 'the Left'.

[Kinser79]

(03-26-2017, 07:42 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(03-20-2017, 03:25 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

Quote:1.  The Dutch have a proportional representative government that allows for multi-party systems.

Also a parliamentary system which requires that people act responsibly to be attractive as coalition partners. That's not how we have things. Our Parties are preset coalitions.

Quote:2.   Everyone in the (mainstream media)  was wrong about the US election.  I find it fascinating though that HRC had the money, the press and (Hollywood) on her side and she still lost.

Some of the moneyed elites were scared of him -- but once President, Donald Trump sold out the common man to get their favor. The common man who voted for President Trump has been had, and knows it, unless "deplorable". He was seen as a demagogue, but he has proved useful to the most rapacious elements in American life by standing for economic hustles, for tax cuts on behalf of the Master Class, against the environment, and (soon enough, I predict) against unions.

Quote:3.  The (Democrats)  have been losing seats and states since 2010.  Not really a surprise there.

I can't predict how unpopular President Trump will be in November 2008 -- but all House seats are up for grabs. An unpopular President and an unpopular Congress creates a "Throw the bums out" climate. This time it more likely hurts the Republican Party. I expect that pattern to be as reliable with Trump as with Obama.

Quote:4.  The left still has yet to demonstrate that Donald Trump is racially, or religiously bigoted.  Indeed, I don't think they can, cause if he were they would have "exposed" it by now.

He is doing an excellent job of proving that himself. He needs no help from 'the Left'.

1.  Not necessarily.  The VVD can choose to coalition with the PVV and allow some of Wilders' agenda through, or they can coalition with the far left and try and block it--but doing so is repugnant to their center-right base.  There is a third option, attempting to rule without a majority which will result in a no-confidence vote and the Dutch going back to the polls.

I do not think the US Parties have permanent coalitions.  There are no permanent enemies, and no permanent allies--only permanent interests.  Seriously dude read the Alinsky.

2.  What unions?  Globalism has eviscerated them far more than anything Trump in his wildest wettest Robber Barron dreams could ever do.  And that assumes that you view the President as a Snidely Whiplash figure.

The common man expects him to work on the trade deals, save what manufacturing we can and manage the collapse of the empire.  He can only fail if he does nothing--since it looks like he's doing things he's not failed yet.

3.  I'm going to assume you mean 2018--otherwise you're a decade behind (but that would explain most of your posts).

No Obama's problem is that the attitude was so one sided and so deep.  Furthermore it should be noted that Obama was and still is relatively popular as president.  Popularity and effectiveness are two different things.  So we should consider if we want a President who is popular or a president who is effective.

If the choice is a do-nothing popular president and an effective ogre I'll take the ogre thanks.  For the record Trump is no ogre--he's just a New Yorker so he only seems abrasive to those whose egos are easily bruised.

4.  I've yet to see that.  I'll tell you what I do see--one side is obsessed over what race someone is, what their genitals are, and who they sleep with.  I'll give you a hint which side that is.  It isn't the right (unless you're expressly talking about old ass social conservative boomers who have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel).

[pbrower2a]

1. American political parties are effectively coalitions forged before the election. In parliamentary systems one does not know what one is getting. At some point a European party that gets the largest number of votes might have to choose between supporting a racist party or an Islamic party.

2. Big Business has been doing everything possible to eviscerate labor unions. Really, except for collective bargaining, unions offer little that a company can't offer -- but unless my job is so individual in quality of output, collective bargaining is well worth the union dues just to prevent an employer from forcing a race to the bottom in wages and working conditions in a workplace with machine-paced work.

3. Sorry about the typo. Republicans effectively blocked much of the Obama agenda, compelling him to do by regulation what Republicans could stop by filibusters and no-votes. But I have much more concern with the contempt for the rule of law that Donald Trump exemplifies. I would not want a politician who is effective in establishing torture chambers or labor camps.  

But you admire such sociopaths as Stalin, Hoxha, and Trump, so it is hardly surprising that you put efficacy above human decency.  

4.  Race as a determiner of human character is garbage. But yes, I won't miss those "social conservative boomers who have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel", either -- except that I am of the same age, and when they go, either I am gone or I am soom to be gone.

[Kinser79]

(03-28-2017, 03:10 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: 1. American political parties are effectively coalitions forged before the election. In parliamentary systems one does not know what one is getting. At some point a European party that gets the largest number of votes might have to choose between supporting a racist party or an Islamic party.

2. Big Business has been doing everything possible to eviscerate labor unions. Really, except for collective bargaining, unions offer little that a company can't offer -- but unless my job is so individual in quality of output, collective bargaining is well worth the union dues just to prevent an employer from forcing a race to the bottom in wages and working conditions in a workplace with machine-paced work.

3. Sorry about the typo. Republicans effectively blocked much of the Obama agenda, compelling him to do by regulation what Republicans could stop by filibusters and no-votes. But I have much more concern with the contempt for the rule of law that Donald Trump exemplifies. I would not want a politician who is effective in establishing torture chambers or labor camps.  

But you admire such sociopaths as Stalin, Hoxha, and Trump, so it is hardly surprising that you put efficacy above human decency.  

4.  Race as a determiner of human character is garbage. But yes, I won't miss those "social conservative boomers who have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel", either -- except that I am of the same age, and when they go, either I am gone or I am soom to be gone.

On point 1:  In European style parliamentary systems one does know what one is getting.  Why?  Because parties are ideologically driven.  When one votes for a Green-Left or the National Front people know what they're getting.

On point 2:  Of course they are--it is in their interests to do so, I wouldn't expect them to not behave that way.  That said, does the state have to go out of its way to destroy whatever protections to US goods that are on the national market?  I want to be clear, while I'm all in favor of internal free trade--the benefits of intranational free trade are not apparent on the international level.

Point 3 is irrelevant because it is your asinine ranting about how evil Trump is.  I will say that the Democrats started the obstruction phenominon under Bush in about 2003 when they started filibustering judicial appointments.  Personally I'd like to do away with the filibuster--but I also want to repeal the 16th and 17th amendments too.

On point 4:  I agree.  I've met nice folks of all races and I've met degenerates of all races.  That being said you've yet to answer my question:  "Which side is obsessed with race and sex?"  Or can you not answer that question because it doesn't have a canned response?