Critique Left

[X_4AD_84]

What does Leftist nostalgia look like?

Sometimes, it looks like 1917. Sometimes, it looks like 1848. Sometimes, it looks like 1789. Rarely does it ever look like 1215, or 1776 or even 1945. What does this say about certain core elements of the Leftist spirit?

The Leftist is a natural born utopian. He or she seeks to perfect Man on Earth. He or she, ultimately, and oddly, has a notion that the will of Nature itself (most especially Human Nature) can be bent by superior intellect. That experiment has been in process now for 10,000 or more years, with no success. Certain things are hard wired into us humans. We cannot escape either Nature or ourselves.

Bringing this to the here and now, Leftists are trying to figure out how to deal with The Crisis. Although some may recognize the inevitability of The Regeneracy, still, their instinct to perfect Man cannot be set aside. They cling to the notions of The Awakening, hoping for a reprise while the Awakening's foot solders are still alive. Demographics are going to win, not the Awakening. The Awakening is now 33 years passed. Its bones are now of The Earth, never more to live.

Instead of clinging to The Awakening, a wise Leftist would seek common ground with Regeneracy-oriented Rightists. Surprising as it may be to the Leftist, there are Rightists who are not the Devil's Spawn, who are of superior intellect, and, who care more about Humanity than any arbitrary or temporally limited political term or definition. There is much common ground to be had. The Regeneracy is all about common ground.

(To be continued)

[Eric the Green]

(03-21-2017, 10:55 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: What does Leftist nostalgia look like?

Sometimes, it looks like 1917. Sometimes, it looks like 1848. Sometimes, it looks like 1789. Rarely does it ever look like 1215, or 1776 or even 1945. What does this say about certain core elements of the Leftist spirit?

The Leftist is a natural born utopian. He or she seeks to perfect Man on Earth. He or she, ultimately, and oddly, has a notion that the will of Nature itself (most especially Human Nature) can be bent by superior intellect. That experiment has been in process now for 10,000 or more years, with no success. Certain things are hard wired into us humans. We cannot escape either Nature or ourselves.

Bringing this to the here and now, Leftists are trying to figure out how to deal with The Crisis. Although some may recognize the inevitability of The Regeneracy, still, their instinct to perfect Man cannot be set aside. They cling to the notions of The Awakening, hoping for a reprise while the Awakening's foot solders are still alive. Demographics are going to win, not the Awakening. The Awakening is now 33 years passed. Its bones are now of The Earth, never more to live.

Instead of clinging to The Awakening, a wise Leftist would seek common ground with Regeneracy-oriented Rightists. Surprising as it may be to the Leftist, there are Rightists who are not the Devil's Spawn, who are of superior intellect, and, who care more about Humanity than any arbitrary or temporally limited political term or definition. There is much common ground to be had. The Regeneracy is all about common ground.

(To be continued)

I agree there is common ground. What may be defined as "Left" and "Right" may be up to the person using the word. Right now, the terms mean different things than they did in the past, and they mean different things in different countries.

I agree, leftists are natural utopians. I am one too, with my ideals going back to the Awakening. There is a spiritual core within us that is perfect. So, it is possible for humans to achieve anything. I agree, utopias are not likely though, in my life time, or for a long time. But ideals move us forward. And I think humans have had quite a lot of success in moving us forward. In many places there is far more peace and justice than there used to be, and more opportunity and prosperity for the average person than in the days of Rome or even old Dixie or Tudor England. We do make progress, and saying what is hard-wired into humans neglects the fact of evolution. We are not reptiles, shrews or even cave men anymore; we have progressed. Humans can be perfected, but the arc of history is long, even though it bends toward justice. In order to have a regeneracy or make progress, we need to know that it's possible, and not fall for notions that it isn't.

Nevertheless, a more "Right" view that humans are still not angels and are flawed, is important to keep in mind. The old "wires" are there too, and rear their ugly heads as we can see. Right now, there are more utopians on the right-wing than on the left. They think we can improve things by starting with having less government or abolishing it. The Left understands it works the other way around. Instead of improving behavior by abolishing the state or the police, we see that these things will or should decrease or go away only when and if our behavior improves. Even revolutions rarely turn out the way we want, so we need to use the systems of government and democracy we have if we can, rather than give up and be cynical. There's another way to see the last 33 years. The last "33 years" can be seen as virtually nothing, a blip in time to be forgotten; a regressive time when we went the wrong way in all ways; time we can all take off our ages, because nothing has happened in those years of any value. The Awakening can't be forgotten, since it remains as the last genuine time in any sense.

Gen Xers tend to be cynical, unfortunately, and to reject what Boomers were about in their youth. Of course I disagree with you about the Awakening. It should not depend on those who were alive to experience it. If our history and progress is valuable, people of all ages can see the value of what went before. The Awakening lives, and it must shape the 4T if it is to have any meaning. (and I should EDIT to Add, that people I know have had spiritual and/or political awakenings in the years since 1984, even similar to those awakenings which other people had during the 2T proper. In that sense too, the Awakening lives, and continues). The Awakening was the time when the issues, ideas and blueprints for changing society and culture came into being, and the Crisis is when these ideas and ideals are to be implemented, IF we are to have a successful 4T. Without realizing this, there can be no common ground in our movements for regeneracy. The last thing we need is for The Awakening to be forgotten. Properly speaking, it takes four turnings for a turning to be forgotten; not two. And our recent 2T was as valuable as any other, despite what its opponents (including some cynical Gen Xers and some cynical Millennials here) may say.

They are wrong. Yes mistakes were made, but they only count from now on as lessons learned. Many people discovered vast new horizons in life and creativity, and opportunities for self-transformation. The human potential movement was epic, and still is if we remember it. Environmentalism was a tremendous advance, and must shape the future if we have any hope for a sustainable life. The possibility of going beyond war was evoked, and I agree with Pete Seeger that "I swear it's not too late." "Turn, turn, turn!" Whole races, ethnic groups and genders experienced liberation as never before. A virtual revolution was declared toward economic justice, and much was implemented in the Awakening years already, led by prophetic activists like Ralph Nader and Martin Luther King Jr.. We embrace these ideals and liberations, restore and advance them, or we wither and die as a nation.

This song is as relevant as it was when it was written by Laura Nyro and sung by the Fifth Dimension in 1969. The Fifth Dimension of course is the group that popularized "This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius" from Hair. The "king" and the "two young brothers" refer to Martin Luther King Jr. and the Kennedys. "I can't study war no more" refers to the anti-war movement. "We can build the dream with love" refers to King's non-violent methods as well as the peace and love felt and lived by the hippies and the human potential liberation. A traditional gospel visionary awakening pop song that can still awaken! Keep the fury in our souls!





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTuwAo5sUik

[beechnut79]

(03-21-2017, 10:55 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: What does Leftist nostalgia look like?

Sometimes, it looks like 1917. Sometimes, it looks like 1848. Sometimes, it looks like 1789. Rarely does it ever look like 1215, or 1776 or even 1945. What does this say about certain core elements of the Leftist spirit?

The Leftist is a natural born utopian. He or she seeks to perfect Man on Earth. He or she, ultimately, and oddly, has a notion that the will of Nature itself (most especially Human Nature) can be bent by superior intellect. That experiment has been in process now for 10,000 or more years, with no success. Certain things are hard wired into us humans. We cannot escape either Nature or ourselves.

Bringing this to the here and now, Leftists are trying to figure out how to deal with The Crisis. Although some may recognize the inevitability of The Regeneracy, still, their instinct to perfect Man cannot be set aside. They cling to the notions of The Awakening, hoping for a reprise while the Awakening's foot solders are still alive. Demographics are going to win, not the Awakening. The Awakening is now 33 years passed. Its bones are now of The Earth, never more to live.

Instead of clinging to The Awakening, a wise Leftist would seek common ground with Regeneracy-oriented Rightists. Surprising as it may be to the Leftist, there are Rightists who are not the Devil's Spawn, who are of superior intellect, and, who care more about Humanity than any arbitrary or temporally limited political term or definition. There is much common ground to be had. The Regeneracy is all about common ground.

(To be continued)

Isn't that what one of the top leftists of the last Awakening, Jane Fonda, did when she married media mogul Ted Turner? Even after that, some folks have never forgiven her for her "Hanoi Jane" segment of life.

[beechnut79]

(03-21-2017, 11:32 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-21-2017, 10:55 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: What does Leftist nostalgia look like?

Sometimes, it looks like 1917. Sometimes, it looks like 1848. Sometimes, it looks like 1789. Rarely does it ever look like 1215, or 1776 or even 1945. What does this say about certain core elements of the Leftist spirit?

The Leftist is a natural born utopian. He or she seeks to perfect Man on Earth. He or she, ultimately, and oddly, has a notion that the will of Nature itself (most especially Human Nature) can be bent by superior intellect. That experiment has been in process now for 10,000 or more years, with no success. Certain things are hard wired into us humans. We cannot escape either Nature or ourselves.

Bringing this to the here and now, Leftists are trying to figure out how to deal with The Crisis. Although some may recognize the inevitability of The Regeneracy, still, their instinct to perfect Man cannot be set aside. They cling to the notions of The Awakening, hoping for a reprise while the Awakening's foot solders are still alive. Demographics are going to win, not the Awakening. The Awakening is now 33 years passed. Its bones are now of The Earth, never more to live.

Instead of clinging to The Awakening, a wise Leftist would seek common ground with Regeneracy-oriented Rightists. Surprising as it may be to the Leftist, there are Rightists who are not the Devil's Spawn, who are of superior intellect, and, who care more about Humanity than any arbitrary or temporally limited political term or definition. There is much common ground to be had. The Regeneracy is all about common ground.

(To be continued)

I agree there is common ground. What may be defined as "Left" and "Right" may be up to the person using the word. Right now, the terms mean different things than they did in the past, and they mean different things in different countries.

I agree, leftists are natural utopians. I am one too, with my ideals going back to the Awakening. There is a spiritual core within us that is perfect. So, it is possible for humans to achieve anything. I agree, utopias are not likely though, in my life time, or for a long time. But ideals move us forward. And I think humans have had quite a lot of success in moving us forward. In many places there is far more peace and justice than there used to be, and more opportunity and prosperity for the average person than in the days of Rome or even old Dixie or Tudor England. We do make progress, and saying what is hard-wired into humans neglects the fact of evolution. We are not reptiles, shrews or even cave men anymore; we have progressed. Humans can be perfected, but the arc of history is long, even though it bends toward justice. In order to have a regeneracy or make progress, we need to know that it's possible, and not fall for notions that it isn't.

Nevertheless, a more "Right" view that humans are still not angels and are flawed, is important to keep in mind. The old "wires" are there too, and rear their ugly heads as we can see. Right now, there are more utopians on the right-wing than on the left. They think we can improve things by starting with having less government or abolishing it. The Left understands it works the other way around. Instead of improving behavior by abolishing the state or the police, we see that these things will or should decrease or go away only when and if our behavior improves. Even revolutions rarely turn out the way we want, so we need to use the systems of government and democracy we have if we can, rather than give up and be cynical.

Gen Xers tend to be cynical, unfortunately, and to reject what Boomers were about in their youth. Of course I disagree with you about the Awakening. It should not depend on those who were alive to experience it. If our history and progress is valuable, people of all ages can see the value of what went before. The Awakening lives, and it must shape the 4T if it is to have any meaning. The Awakening was the time when the issues, ideas and blueprints for changing society and culture came into being, and the Crisis is when these ideas and ideals are to be implemented, IF we are to have a successful 4T. Without realizing this, there can be no common ground in our movements for regeneracy. The last thing we need is for The Awakening to be forgotten. Properly speaking, it takes four turnings for a turning to be forgotten; not two. And our recent 2T was as valuable as any other, despite what its opponents (including some cynical Gen Xers and some cynical Millennials here) may say.

They are wrong. Yes mistakes were made, but they only count from now on as lessons learned. Many people discovered vast new horizons in life and creativity, and opportunities for self-transformation. The human potential movement was epic, and still is if we remember it. Environmentalism was a tremendous advance, and must shape the future if we have any hope for a sustainable future. The possibility of going beyond war was evoked, and I agree with Pete Seeger that "I swear it's not too late." "Turn, turn, turn!" Whole races, ethnic groups and genders experienced liberation as never before. A virtual revolution was declared toward economic justice, and much was implemented in the Awakening years already, led by prophetic activists like Ralph Nader and Martin Luther King Jr.. We embrace these ideals and liberations, or we wither and die as a nation.

This song is as relevant as it was when it was written by Laura Nyro and sung by the Fifth Dimension in 1969. The "king" and the "two young brothers" refer to Martin Luther King Jr. and the Kennedys. "I can't study war no more" refers to the anti-war movement. A traditional gospel visionary awakening pop song that can still awaken! Keep the fury in our souls!

But it does seem as if much of today's right wing wants to destroy whatever is left of the Awakening culutre, and much of it appears to have been discredited. Yet this doesn't mean that we give up at the first sign of tension. This is why Bernie Sanders is such an important figure today; he clearly has not given up although he won't be our President. He is about the only one in the political arena who is carrying the torch forward. Yet those of us who would shaped by the period's positive points should continue to dream the big dream. The energy obviously is there. But is it just there to see how committed we are?

[Eric the Green]

(03-21-2017, 11:48 AM)beechnut79 Wrote:

(03-21-2017, 11:32 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-21-2017, 10:55 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: What does Leftist nostalgia look like?

Sometimes, it looks like 1917. Sometimes, it looks like 1848. Sometimes, it looks like 1789. Rarely does it ever look like 1215, or 1776 or even 1945. What does this say about certain core elements of the Leftist spirit?

The Leftist is a natural born utopian. He or she seeks to perfect Man on Earth. He or she, ultimately, and oddly, has a notion that the will of Nature itself (most especially Human Nature) can be bent by superior intellect. That experiment has been in process now for 10,000 or more years, with no success. Certain things are hard wired into us humans. We cannot escape either Nature or ourselves.

Bringing this to the here and now, Leftists are trying to figure out how to deal with The Crisis. Although some may recognize the inevitability of The Regeneracy, still, their instinct to perfect Man cannot be set aside. They cling to the notions of The Awakening, hoping for a reprise while the Awakening's foot solders are still alive. Demographics are going to win, not the Awakening. The Awakening is now 33 years passed. Its bones are now of The Earth, never more to live.

Instead of clinging to The Awakening, a wise Leftist would seek common ground with Regeneracy-oriented Rightists. Surprising as it may be to the Leftist, there are Rightists who are not the Devil's Spawn, who are of superior intellect, and, who care more about Humanity than any arbitrary or temporally limited political term or definition. There is much common ground to be had. The Regeneracy is all about common ground.

(To be continued)

I agree there is common ground. What may be defined as "Left" and "Right" may be up to the person using the word. Right now, the terms mean different things than they did in the past, and they mean different things in different countries.

I agree, leftists are natural utopians. I am one too, with my ideals going back to the Awakening. There is a spiritual core within us that is perfect. So, it is possible for humans to achieve anything. I agree, utopias are not likely though, in my life time, or for a long time. But ideals move us forward. And I think humans have had quite a lot of success in moving us forward. In many places there is far more peace and justice than there used to be, and more opportunity and prosperity for the average person than in the days of Rome or even old Dixie or Tudor England. We do make progress, and saying what is hard-wired into humans neglects the fact of evolution. We are not reptiles, shrews or even cave men anymore; we have progressed. Humans can be perfected, but the arc of history is long, even though it bends toward justice. In order to have a regeneracy or make progress, we need to know that it's possible, and not fall for notions that it isn't.

Nevertheless, a more "Right" view that humans are still not angels and are flawed, is important to keep in mind. The old "wires" are there too, and rear their ugly heads as we can see. Right now, there are more utopians on the right-wing than on the left. They think we can improve things by starting with having less government or abolishing it. The Left understands it works the other way around. Instead of improving behavior by abolishing the state or the police, we see that these things will or should decrease or go away only when and if our behavior improves. Even revolutions rarely turn out the way we want, so we need to use the systems of government and democracy we have if we can, rather than give up and be cynical.

Gen Xers tend to be cynical, unfortunately, and to reject what Boomers were about in their youth. Of course I disagree with you about the Awakening. It should not depend on those who were alive to experience it. If our history and progress is valuable, people of all ages can see the value of what went before. The Awakening lives, and it must shape the 4T if it is to have any meaning. The Awakening was the time when the issues, ideas and blueprints for changing society and culture came into being, and the Crisis is when these ideas and ideals are to be implemented, IF we are to have a successful 4T. Without realizing this, there can be no common ground in our movements for regeneracy. The last thing we need is for The Awakening to be forgotten. Properly speaking, it takes four turnings for a turning to be forgotten; not two. And our recent 2T was as valuable as any other, despite what its opponents (including some cynical Gen Xers and some cynical Millennials here) may say.

They are wrong. Yes mistakes were made, but they only count from now on as lessons learned. Many people discovered vast new horizons in life and creativity, and opportunities for self-transformation. The human potential movement was epic, and still is if we remember it. Environmentalism was a tremendous advance, and must shape the future if we have any hope for a sustainable future. The possibility of going beyond war was evoked, and I agree with Pete Seeger that "I swear it's not too late." "Turn, turn, turn!" Whole races, ethnic groups and genders experienced liberation as never before. A virtual revolution was declared toward economic justice, and much was implemented in the Awakening years already, led by prophetic activists like Ralph Nader and Martin Luther King Jr.. We embrace these ideals and liberations, or we wither and die as a nation.

This song is as relevant as it was when it was written by Laura Nyro and sung by the Fifth Dimension in 1969. The "king" and the "two young brothers" refer to Martin Luther King Jr. and the Kennedys. "I can't study war no more" refers to the anti-war movement. A traditional gospel visionary awakening pop song that can still awaken! Keep the fury in our souls!

But it does seem as if much of today's right wing wants to destroy whatever is left of the Awakening culture, and much of it appears to have been discredited. Yet this doesn't mean that we give up at the first sign of tension. This is why Bernie Sanders is such an important figure today; he clearly has not given up although he won't be our President. He is about the only one in the political arena who is carrying the torch forward. Yet those of us who would shaped by the period's positive points should continue to dream the big dream. The energy obviously is there. But is it just there to see how committed we are?

Right, and the "discredited" is only among those who have been persuaded to discredit and destroy it by the right wing. Bernie carries the torch, but so did Hillary, and many others are carrying it. Even some Gen Xers.

[Eric the Green]

(03-21-2017, 10:55 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: What does Leftist nostalgia look like?

Sometimes, it looks like 1917. Sometimes, it looks like 1848. Sometimes, it looks like 1789. Rarely does it ever look like 1215, or 1776 or even 1945. What does this say about certain core elements of the Leftist spirit?

Instead of clinging to The Awakening, a wise Leftist would seek common ground with Regeneracy-oriented Rightists...

Interesting idea; I wonder how you will play it. Somehow I don't quite understand how leftists could have nostalgia for 1917, 1848 or 1789 and forget the sixties, which is so much more familiar and relevant. Leftists today don't look back to 1917, don't even remember 1848, and don't give much credit to 1789. But the sixties are what we are not only nostalgic for, it's still the revolution ongoing.

I don't see much nostalgia for 1945, but some here I know want to get to the next first turning. 1945 was good, but mainly just as a defeat of what would have been regression to the Dark Ages. Civilization was restored, and FDR looked ahead to a bright future, but what followed was not so bright. Meanwhile, the documents of 1776 and 1787 continue to be invoked by people on all sides in the USA.

I don't see how "clinging to the Awakening" necessarily conflicts with "seek common ground with Regeneracy-oriented Rightists"

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-21-2017, 10:55 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: What does Leftist nostalgia look like?

Sometimes, it looks like 1917. Sometimes, it looks like 1848. Sometimes, it looks like 1789. Rarely does it ever look like 1215, or 1776 or even 1945. What does this say about certain core elements of the Leftist spirit?

The Leftist is a natural born utopian. He or she seeks to perfect Man on Earth. He or she, ultimately, and oddly, has a notion that the will of Nature itself (most especially Human Nature) can be bent by superior intellect. That experiment has been in process now for 10,000 or more years, with no success. Certain things are hard wired into us humans. We cannot escape either Nature or ourselves.

Bringing this to the here and now, Leftists are trying to figure out how to deal with The Crisis. Although some may recognize the inevitability of The Regeneracy, still, their instinct to perfect Man cannot be set aside. They cling to the notions of The Awakening, hoping for a reprise while the Awakening's foot solders are still alive. Demographics are going to win, not the Awakening. The Awakening is now 33 years passed. Its bones are now of The Earth, never more to live.

Instead of clinging to The Awakening, a wise Leftist would seek common ground with Regeneracy-oriented Rightists. Surprising as it may be to the Leftist, there are Rightists who are not the Devil's Spawn, who are of superior intellect, and, who care more about Humanity than any arbitrary or temporally limited political term or definition. There is much common ground to be had. The Regeneracy is all about common ground.

(To be continued)

This particular more or less lefty doesn't believe in utopia.  Those who think they can see an end to progress, who have an ideal in mind that they think is reachable, I generally disagree with.  The classic example is the old style Marxist who predicts the state fading away after the revolution.  Perfection is advertised as one step away.

I see the possibility of progress.  Pick one or two flaws in the culture and fix them.  Don't try to fix everything.

I would like to see better communications across the divide.  It would be nice if we could find a list of things that need fixing then fix them.  It's something worth striving for.

But to a great degree the abstract goals are in conflict.  The red values might center on independence and rejection of governent inefficiently and at great cost solving problems that don't exist.  Progressive in more populated areas see problems every day that exist less in rural areas, and wish to produce strong communities where people support each other in part through government action.

I would think that the first step would be an acknowledgement that the other faction's ideals and values can be felt sincerely.  The dominant instinct seems to be to demonize rather than to compromise.