In rural Wisconsin, researcher found roots of Trump's revolution

[Odin]

I heard this great program on public radio about a month ago. It's about Wisconsin, but I see the same things in rural Minnesota.

[pbrower2a]

I see the same in Michigan west of US 23 (Ann Arbor obviously excluded, and possibly Greater Lansing. Michigan) outside of those areas might as well be Texas except for the climate and scenery.

[pbrower2a]

After listening to the story I can connect to a basic reality: that rural people think that city dwellers exploit them because they have the well-paying jobs generally unavailable in rural areas. What rural people often forget is that with those high-paying jobs comes exorbitant rents and high taxes. A couple might be able to live on three near-minimum wage jobs in rural Illinois, but definitely not in Greater Chicago.  But live in Chicago, and real estate is costly (if it is in a place where one doesn't live in fear of violent crimes such as rape and muggings) , commutes are long and expensive, and taxes are high. Want good schooling? Not only will you pay to keep up the bad public schools, you might have to send your kids to a private school if they are to do reasonably well in life.

But rural folk in some northern states (among them most blatantly Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan) see evidence of the urban middle class coming to their communities with their expensive boats (conspicuous consumption) and have a love-hate relationship with them. Yes, they may get jobs in convenience stores that sell motor fuels, snacks, beer, and fishing bait to such people, but those customers are spending more on boat fuel in one purchase than these rural people are making in a day. Some may have bought cottages at the lake, having bid up the prices of the only desirable real estate -- the places in which many of the rural folk used to go for summer swims and go out on a canoe. So along comes Donald Trump with the message: hurt the educated middle class that exploits you and looks down upon you. 

Some people have done very well in the pre-Trump America, and most have done badly. Never mind that Donald Trump will bring about the sort of inequality that existed in the old Jim Crow South... people that you don't like will feel the pain. Never mind that you will, too.

The Right has learned to pit the middle class, the working poor, and the welfare recipients -- a war from which only the Master Class can profit. The Master Class will get tax cuts; the rest of us will find ourselves having to pay more taxes just for wars for profit and show projects that enrich contractors tied to the Trump Administration. Wages will likely plummet as unions are destroyed. Public education will disintegrate as the Christian fundamentalists get control of it. Resources wi9ll be plundered. The public sector will be privatized to profiteering monopolists connected to you-know-who.

[beechnut79]

(05-10-2017, 11:17 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(05-09-2017, 11:56 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: After listening to the story I can connect to a basic reality: that rural people think that city dwellers exploit them because they have the well-paying jobs generally unavailable in rural areas. What rural people often forget is that with those high-paying jobs comes exorbitant rents and high taxes. A couple might be able to live on three near-minimum wage jobs in rural Illinois, but definitely not in Greater Chicago.  But live in Chicago, and real estate is costly (if it is in a place where one doesn't live in fear of violent crimes such as rape and muggings) , commutes are long and expensive, and taxes are high. Want good schooling? Not only will you pay to keep up the bad public schools, you might have to send your kids to a private school if they are to do reasonably well in life.

But rural folk in some northern states (among them most blatantly Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan) see evidence of the urban middle class coming to their communities with their expensive boats (conspicuous consumption) and have a love-hate relationship with them. Yes, they may get jobs in convenience stores that sell motor fuels, snacks, beer, and fishing bait to such people, but those customers are spending more on boat fuel than these rural people are making in a day. Some may have bought cottages at the lake, having bid up the prices of the only desirable real estate -- the places in which many of the rural folk used to go for summer swims and go out on a canoe. So along comes Donald Trump with the message: hurt the educated middle class that exploits you and looks down upon you. 

Some people have done very well in the pre-Trump America, and most have done badly. Never mind that Donald Trump will bring about the sort of inequality that existed in the old Jim Crow South... people that you don't like will feel the pain. Never mind that you will, too.

The Right has learned to pit the middle class, the working poor, and the welfare recipients -- a war from which only the Master Class can profit. The Master Class will get tax cuts; the rest of us will find ourselves having to pay more taxes just for wars for profit and show projects that enrich contractors tied to the Trump Administration. Wages will likely plummet as unions are destroyed. Public education will disintegrate as the Christian fundamentalists get control of it. Resources wi9ll be plundered. The public sector will be privatized to profiteering monopolists connected to you-know-who.

Highlighted text was a very interesting thing, 20 - 25 years ago. All the relatively good paying jobs making flex circuits, cable assemblies, crystal oscillators, metal parts, ASICs, high density controlled impedance backplane connectors, etc, etc, were the ticket to a great life in the "American Outback." Heck, seeing it as much as I did back then, I was seriously tempted to make the move myself. I'm now glad I didn't. But back then, one could be a proud member of the "Country Squire" or "Big Fish in a Small Pond" market segments, with relative ease, working at such a firm, living in a smaller rural or small town setting.

Sometimes I tend to wonder if said rural, small-town settings might someday become a refuge for many retirees who no longer feel they need to have the trappings of more urban surroundings, such as big-name entertainment and trendy theme restaurants which are usually quite pricey. I fully believe one reason for the high cost of living is that most folks today want so much more, and wouldn't be satisfied with the lifestyle of the "Leave It to Beaver" days.

[Odin]

(05-09-2017, 11:56 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: But rural folk in some northern states (among them most blatantly Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan) see evidence of the urban middle class coming to their communities with their expensive boats (conspicuous consumption) and have a love-hate relationship with them. Yes, they may get jobs in convenience stores that sell motor fuels, snacks, beer, and fishing bait to such people, but those customers are spending more on boat fuel in one purchase than these rural people are making in a day. Some may have bought cottages at the lake, having bid up the prices of the only desirable real estate -- the places in which many of the rural folk used to go for summer swims and go out on a canoe. So along comes Donald Trump with the message: hurt the educated middle class that exploits you and looks down upon you.

OMG yes, this is 100% true. There is quite a bit of resentment among working class people in rural Minnesota lakes country for all the wealthy seasonal people with their lake homes. And in the fall you get the cake eaters from the Twin Cities suburbs coming up north for hunting and local hunters here hate those people for tons of very valid reasons.

[Odin]

(05-10-2017, 11:17 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(05-09-2017, 11:56 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: After listening to the story I can connect to a basic reality: that rural people think that city dwellers exploit them because they have the well-paying jobs generally unavailable in rural areas. What rural people often forget is that with those high-paying jobs comes exorbitant rents and high taxes. A couple might be able to live on three near-minimum wage jobs in rural Illinois, but definitely not in Greater Chicago.  But live in Chicago, and real estate is costly (if it is in a place where one doesn't live in fear of violent crimes such as rape and muggings) , commutes are long and expensive, and taxes are high. Want good schooling? Not only will you pay to keep up the bad public schools, you might have to send your kids to a private school if they are to do reasonably well in life.

But rural folk in some northern states (among them most blatantly Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan) see evidence of the urban middle class coming to their communities with their expensive boats (conspicuous consumption) and have a love-hate relationship with them. Yes, they may get jobs in convenience stores that sell motor fuels, snacks, beer, and fishing bait to such people, but those customers are spending more on boat fuel than these rural people are making in a day. Some may have bought cottages at the lake, having bid up the prices of the only desirable real estate -- the places in which many of the rural folk used to go for summer swims and go out on a canoe. So along comes Donald Trump with the message: hurt the educated middle class that exploits you and looks down upon you. 

Some people have done very well in the pre-Trump America, and most have done badly. Never mind that Donald Trump will bring about the sort of inequality that existed in the old Jim Crow South... people that you don't like will feel the pain. Never mind that you will, too.

The Right has learned to pit the middle class, the working poor, and the welfare recipients -- a war from which only the Master Class can profit. The Master Class will get tax cuts; the rest of us will find ourselves having to pay more taxes just for wars for profit and show projects that enrich contractors tied to the Trump Administration. Wages will likely plummet as unions are destroyed. Public education will disintegrate as the Christian fundamentalists get control of it. Resources wi9ll be plundered. The public sector will be privatized to profiteering monopolists connected to you-know-who.

Highlighted text was a very interesting thing, 20 - 25 years ago. All the relatively good paying jobs making flex circuits, cable assemblies, crystal oscillators, metal parts, ASICs, high density controlled impedance backplane connectors, etc, etc, were the ticket to a great life in the "American Outback." Heck, seeing it as much as I did back then, I was seriously tempted to make the move myself. I'm now glad I didn't. But back then, one could be a proud member of the "Country Squire" or "Big Fish in a Small Pond" market segments, with relative ease, working at such a firm, living in a smaller rural or small town setting.

Fargo seems mostly to have escaped this fate because it's transitioned into being a large enough city.

[pbrower2a]

(05-10-2017, 03:45 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: [quote pid='25492' dateline='1494433035']

(05-09-2017, 11:56 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: What rural people often forget is that with those high-paying jobs comes exorbitant rents and high taxes. A couple might be able to live on three near-minimum wage jobs in rural Illinois, but definitely not in Greater Chicago.  But live in Chicago, and real estate is costly (if it is in a place where one doesn't live in fear of violent crimes such as rape and muggings) , commutes are long and expensive, and taxes are high. Want good schooling? Not only will you pay to keep up the bad public schools, you might have to send your kids to a private school if they are to do reasonably well in life.

Sometimes I tend to wonder if said rural, small-town settings might someday become a refuge for many retirees who no longer feel they need to have the trappings of more urban surroundings, such as big-name entertainment and trendy theme restaurants which are usually quite pricey. I fully believe one reason for the high cost of living is that most folks today want so much more, and wouldn't be satisfied with the lifestyle of the "Leave It to Beaver" days.
[/quote]

The world of the "Beaver Cleaver" is an upper-income reality by the standards of the 1950s. There weren't the electronic goodies that even a poor family would have in the projects today. The Cleaver household was uncluttered; there just wasn't that much to clutter with. Note well that there is no TV? "Ward Cleaver" is an engineer, a well-educated fellow, and a TV doesn't really fit into the Cleaver life. TV made its way into the poorer neighborhoods before it reached the middle class, and the only reason for it to reach the upper class was for 'the help'.

'Trendy theme restaurants' that can get pricey?' I think of Cracker Barrel, Applebee's, Bob Evans, Country Kitchen, and to some extent Denny's... and those places aren't for the 'movers and shakers'. They can be pricey.

Current trends suggest that the American poor are going to be priced into nastier and nastier places, and the rich will be in complete dominance of anything that has any desirability. The poor might get access to stupefied amusements (television is obvious enough) as an inexpensive 'opiate of the masses' ... and be allowed to visit stupefied amusement parks as rewards for unusual effort. But the elites, whether 'ownership' or 'cognitive' will get the good stuff. That will include high-quality camping and hiking. The poor will be expected to eat themselves and drink themselves to death so that they get no pensions that they pay into. Chips, sodas, milkshakes, beer, and candy... Just think of all those people bigger than the average bear who use carts in Wal*Mart. You know that they will never collect from Social Security.

But you know how it is with Trump as President: the dysfunctional world is forming around us. Have fun living in the set of a bad piece of reality television -- if you can!

[pbrower2a]

By the way -- if we get out of this Crisis Era really well, then the world of 'Beaver Cleaver' will return in many aspects. Because of the wondrous technology, people won't have the clutter of books or music and video discs because they will get their reading, video, and music on line.  Status symbols as we now know them will be largely irrelevant unless they are marks of indulgence in an inequitable and repressive society.  There might be video screens tuned to nature in some form, whether the summit of Everest or some magnificent coastline (for people who live in places with no scenery, like much of Illinois. (Obviously if the world of the 2030s is hierarchical, repressive, and inequitable, then the Crisis will have gone badly).  Robots will likely do the unpleasant work; think of "Rosie" in The Jetsons. 

Take note -- that any 'paradise' of an uncrowded world suggests that a human population has been decimated, perhaps in a nuclear war. Maybe China has 100 million people and America has 30 million.... that is how it happens.

Yes, I can think bleak. That's one of my unwelcome talents.

[pbrower2a]

(05-11-2017, 07:03 AM)Odin Wrote:

(05-09-2017, 11:56 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: But rural folk in some northern states (among them most blatantly Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan) see evidence of the urban middle class coming to their communities with their expensive boats (conspicuous consumption) and have a love-hate relationship with them. Yes, they may get jobs in convenience stores that sell motor fuels, snacks, beer, and fishing bait to such people, but those customers are spending more on boat fuel in one purchase than these rural people are making in a day. Some may have bought cottages at the lake, having bid up the prices of the only desirable real estate -- the places in which many of the rural folk used to go for summer swims and go out on a canoe. So along comes Donald Trump with the message: hurt the educated middle class that exploits you and looks down upon you.

OMG yes, this is 100% true. There is quite a bit of resentment among working class people in rural Minnesota lakes country for all the wealthy seasonal people with their lake homes. And in the fall you get the cake eaters from the Twin Cities suburbs coming up north for hunting and local hunters here hate those people for tons of very valid reasons.

Just for reference:





It has an ironic reference to Marie Antoinette: "Let them eat cake".

[beechnut79]

(05-11-2017, 08:24 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: By the way -- if we get out of this Crisis Era really well, then the world of 'Beaver Cleaver' will return in many aspects. Because of the wondrous technology, people won't have the clutter of books or music and video discs because they will get their reading, video, and music on line.  Status symbols as we now know them will be largely irrelevant unless they are marks of indulgence in an inequitable and repressive society.  There might be video screens tuned to nature in some form, whether the summit of Everest or some magnificent coastline (for people who live in places with no scenery, like much of Illinois. (Obviously if the world of the 2030s is hierarchical, repressive, and inequitable, then the Crisis will have gone badly).  Robots will likely do the unpleasant work; think of "Rosie" in The Jetsons. 

Take note -- that any 'paradise' of an uncrowded world suggests that a human population has been decimated, perhaps in a nuclear war. Maybe China has 100 million people and America has 30 million.... that is how it happens.

Yes, I can think bleak. That's one of my unwelcome talents.

One other factor of note that needs to be figured in is the likelihood of a major depression once driverless cars hit the scene, expected to happen somewhere around 2025.

[David Horn]

I listened to an hour-long NPR interview and Q&A with Andrew Sullivan.  He made an incredible amount of basic common sense.  Now Sullivan is an odd duck, but he represents the logical and sensible side of conservatism. Since he is both Roman Catholic and gay, he has learned to thread the needle carefully. He is calling Trump the worst politician in his lifetime, but he also has some negative opinions of the SJW crowd. He also regards AGW as established fact and has full distain for people who ignore facts if they conflict with their beliefs.

Why is he so unique?

[pbrower2a]

(05-11-2017, 04:48 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Driverless cars ain't cheap. I doubt they ever will be. I foresee it being a niche application. Like other examples in the past of technology it's overblown, mostly by those who seek to make money off of it.

If anything I'm highly disappointed in how lame we've been with automation in this country.

Again, back to 20 - 25 years ago. I expected us to deploy lots of automation to improve our existing industries. But a bunch of MBAs apparently determined it was cheaper and easier to simply move the existing low tech way of doing things to Mexico then later China. Finally, in 2017, automation is catching up with the processes, which are by now antiquated to the max.

Where's my Jetson's house and my flying car?

Cars, houses, and college education have never been cheap.  But with respect to cars - self-driving cars will have their benefits.  They will cut vehicle collisions to practically zero, so the reduction in insurance costs will pay for the capital cost. One business that will get hit will be the motel business because people will be able  to sleep while their cars travel. You could sleep for eight hours while your car goes 480 miles. 'Driving a car' would be like taking a train, except that you might not have the interesting company.

[Odin]

(05-11-2017, 08:37 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(05-11-2017, 07:03 AM)Odin Wrote:

(05-09-2017, 11:56 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: But rural folk in some northern states (among them most blatantly Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan) see evidence of the urban middle class coming to their communities with their expensive boats (conspicuous consumption) and have a love-hate relationship with them. Yes, they may get jobs in convenience stores that sell motor fuels, snacks, beer, and fishing bait to such people, but those customers are spending more on boat fuel in one purchase than these rural people are making in a day. Some may have bought cottages at the lake, having bid up the prices of the only desirable real estate -- the places in which many of the rural folk used to go for summer swims and go out on a canoe. So along comes Donald Trump with the message: hurt the educated middle class that exploits you and looks down upon you.

OMG yes, this is 100% true. There is quite a bit of resentment among working class people in rural Minnesota lakes country for all the wealthy seasonal people with their lake homes. And in the fall you get the cake eaters from the Twin Cities suburbs coming up north for hunting and local hunters here hate those people for tons of very valid reasons.

Just for reference:





It has an ironic reference to Marie Antoinette: "Let them eat cake".

This is great, thanks!

[Odin]

(05-11-2017, 03:29 PM)David Horn Wrote: I listened to an hour-long NPR interview and Q&A with Andrew Sullivan.  He made an incredible amount of basic common sense.  Now Sullivan is an odd duck, but he represents the logical and sensible side of conservatism.  Since he is both Roman Catholic and gay, he has learned to thread the needle carefully.  He is calling Trump the worst politician in his lifetime, but he also has some negative opinions of the SJW crowd.  He also regards AGW as established fact and has full distain for people who ignore facts if they conflict with their beliefs.

Why is he so unique?

Outside the "Catholic and gay" part I suspect there would be a lot more people like him were it not for the right-wing propaganda machine and the effect it has in a lot of the country outside the major cities. Fox News and conservative talk radio has created a very dangerous bubble.

[Odin]

(05-11-2017, 09:18 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(05-11-2017, 04:48 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Driverless cars ain't cheap. I doubt they ever will be. I foresee it being a niche application. Like other examples in the past of technology it's overblown, mostly by those who seek to make money off of it.

If anything I'm highly disappointed in how lame we've been with automation in this country.

Again, back to 20 - 25 years ago. I expected us to deploy lots of automation to improve our existing industries. But a bunch of MBAs apparently determined it was cheaper and easier to simply move the existing low tech way of doing things to Mexico then later China. Finally, in 2017, automation is catching up with the processes, which are by now antiquated to the max.

Where's my Jetson's house and my flying car?

Cars, houses, and college education have never been cheap.  But with respect to cars - self-driving cars will have their benefits.  They will cut vehicle collisions to practically zero, so the reduction in insurance costs will pay for the capital cost. One business that will get hit will be the motel business because people will be able  to sleep while their cars travel. You could sleep for eight hours while your car goes 480 miles. 'Driving a car' would be like taking a train, except that you might not have the interesting company.

Also, those of us who can't drive won't feel like 2nd class citizens any more.