The Maelstrom of Violence

[David Horn]

(01-11-2021, 11:27 AM)gabrielle Wrote: The American people have voted to give control of the White House, the Senate, and the House of Representatives to the Democrats. Georgia has turned blue, and the "Squad" is growing. In the aftermath of the thwarted insurrection, the president is facing a second impeachment. White House officials are abandoning ship, and several Republicans have joined in calling for his impeachment. Trump has been banned permanently from twitter and facebook, and parler is offline. Trump's approval ratings with the public have long been poor. Those who fomented rebellion in Congress are losing their major donors and facing heavy censure. Those who participated in the assault of the Capitol are being hunted down and arrested, with many of them making excuses and pleading mercy.

I don't know, Classic Xer, it looks to me like it is your side that is losing.

In alt-reality world, everything is as they like it to be, whether it is or not.  It's "Alice in Wonderland" for real.

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-11-2021, 11:27 AM)gabrielle Wrote: The American people have voted to give control of the White House, the Senate, and the House of Representatives to the Democrats. Georgia has turned blue, and the "Squad" is growing. In the aftermath of the thwarted insurrection, the president is facing a second impeachment. White House officials are abandoning ship, and several Republicans have joined in calling for his impeachment. Trump has been banned permanently from twitter and facebook, and parler is offline. Trump's approval ratings with the public have long been poor. Those who fomented rebellion in Congress are losing their major donors and facing heavy censure. Those who participated in the assault of the Capitol are being hunted down and arrested, with many of them making excuses and pleading mercy.

I don't know, Classic Xer, it looks to me like it is your side that is losing.

It is a matter of whether the Democrats can come through pushing for the working man and minorities, or whether the Republican support of the racists and elites will come to give them an advantage again. With COVID hot, the economy a mess, and concerns about systematic racism high, they have a window to sustain a progressive period. Everything is close enough that it is too soon to celebrate, however.

[Bob Butler 54]

I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-11-2021, 11:27 AM)gabrielle Wrote: The American people have voted to give control of the White House, the Senate, and the House of Representatives to the Democrats. Georgia has turned blue, and the "Squad" is growing. In the aftermath of the thwarted insurrection, the president is facing a second impeachment. White House officials are abandoning ship, and several Republicans have joined in calling for his impeachment. Trump has been banned permanently from twitter and facebook, and parler is offline. Trump's approval ratings with the public have long been poor. Those who fomented rebellion in Congress are losing their major donors and facing heavy censure. Those who participated in the assault of the Capitol are being hunted down and arrested, with many of them making excuses and pleading mercy.

I don't know, Classic Xer, it looks to me like it is your side that is losing.

Aren't you the one who was done politics and going back to focusing on art?

Looks can be deceiving, we are a 50/50 nation with one vote requiring some rule changes being the deciding factor with violence on the table and viewed as an option by both sides. If you look at the current political situation and use some imagination, you can see a nation that's positioned for a national split or war. Are you aware of all that it took for the Democratic party and some GOP to defeat Donald Trump? Lets see, it took several months of on going violence and covid restrictions, a continuous fear campaign that was waged for several months by most media outlets, illegal court decisions retaining to voting laws in some key states battle ground states, the assistance of big tech oligarchs controlling relevant information and eliminating voices of decent and political opposition and contributing hundreds of millions dollars and an absent candidate who barely left home who didn't have much to say when asked pertinent and relevant questions relating to known agenda's are what all it took to win the election. Right now, we are a fascist Democratic country more than an American country without a trustworthy referee who is able to keep the peace.

Yes, the Democratic side won but look at the position that the Democrats are in right now and look at how many freedoms and rights that the Democratic side has lost. We aren't three years into a crisis like Hoover and the Republican party was in 80 some years ago. The situation now is reversed. I don't know where you live or much care for that matter. I don't know if fascism and plutocracy and master class determining who you are, what your worth, what you have to believe and accept was what you wanted or expected or not but that's what you got and America is stuck with right now. How long will America go along with this political arrangement? Well, I can't speak for seventy some million individuals who have the right to wage war with a fascist Democratic regime. Did you see what all it took and how many wrongs were ignored by the Democratic party and some GOP to barely defeat Trump?

I know several people who have been banned or had their posts deleted by Facebook and Twitter recently. One happened to be the other day during a discussion between a Biden supporter and a Trump supporter. The Trump supporter had their rights taken away before the eyes of the Biden supporter. So, who gave Facebook the power and authority to do that in this country. Right now, the federal government doesn't have that power and authority available to it. The Big Tech owners are making a big mistake messing with a giant. The Democrats are making a big mistake too right now. Which is what we expect, we also expect them to make more mistakes. The GOP (Northeastern Republicans) has no other choice but to go along with whatever the Democrats want to do right now because they supported Biden and slight their own throats politically. I do not believe Americans voted for a fascist regime like the one that we clearly have in place today. I don't believe American voted to have their individual rights/freedoms removed by Progressive courts and law makers. I don't believe Americans voted for a socialist system either. I don't believe Americans voted to remove police funding and further weaken their authority to maintain order either.

We have two countries right now. We have a Progressive/Democratic country and an American country We have a Progressive/Democratic run country that wants to change everything to suit its particular needs and establish itself as the ultimate authority. We also an American country that's represented by Republicans who are not interested in accommodating them/it or serving their/its  needs that I more or less represent here today. So, I suggest that you prepare for the distinct possibility of being stuck between the side associated with the French Revolution (anarchy) and the guillotines and the side associated with the American Revolution and the American establishment as they more or less begin to square off with one another across the entire country. Once it starts there will be no place in this country where the Progressives are safe from Americans. America is always will be an American country. So, that is where I stand today and that is where I stood when I begin posting and began going about the dirty work involved with eliminating a fascist regime. I know of several companies who are sticking their necks out placing the lives of themselves and their employees at risk right now.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-11-2021, 02:01 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: It is a matter of whether the Democrats can come through pushing for the working man and minorities, or whether the Republican support of the racists and elites will come to give them an advantage again.  With COVID hot, the economy a mess, and concerns about systematic racism high, they have a window to sustain a progressive period.  Everything is close enough that it is too soon to celebrate, however.

It's a matter of whether the Democrats can push through anything without starting a war and splitting a country. It won't take much changing since America has changed enough to result in either one these days. As I've mentioned before, relationships are built on trust and when trust is gone, the relationship ends. We are nearing the end of a relationship and how ugly the relationship ends has been left/placed in the hands of the Democrats.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-11-2021, 12:25 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-10-2021, 05:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-10-2021, 04:46 PM)taramarie Wrote: David, i highly recommend he is removed given he only seems to lash out like a child and as such isnt worthy of having a conversation with, as he fails to hold a conversation as a mature adult. He never grew up emotionally.

Who's the child? Look at yourself, see what you want a moderator to do for you and your peace of mind. I suggest that you grow up or stick to art.

C-Xer, I could require that you participate under your real name, since you're so full of bravado about it.  I use mine, and I don't throw insults around like cordwood.  Be brave; stand naked.

My link is traceable like everyone else. You want to place yourself and loved ones at risk that's up to you. I prefer to remain private and continue go by the name Classic Xer. I don't throw insults around like cord wood. I'm very direct with my use of insults.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-11-2021, 12:29 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-11-2021, 11:27 AM)gabrielle Wrote: The American people have voted to give control of the White House, the Senate, and the House of Representatives to the Democrats. Georgia has turned blue, and the "Squad" is growing. In the aftermath of the thwarted insurrection, the president is facing a second impeachment. White House officials are abandoning ship, and several Republicans have joined in calling for his impeachment. Trump has been banned permanently from twitter and facebook, and parler is offline. Trump's approval ratings with the public have long been poor. Those who fomented rebellion in Congress are losing their major donors and facing heavy censure. Those who participated in the assault of the Capitol are being hunted down and arrested, with many of them making excuses and pleading mercy.

I don't know, Classic Xer, it looks to me like it is your side that is losing.

In alt-reality world, everything is as they like it to be, whether it is or not.  It's "Alice in Wonderland" for real.

"Alice in Wonderland" or "The Wizard of Oz". They're both associated with Hollywood and everyone knows which side Hollywood is on these days. I think the truth is that Joe Biden will turn out to be the real/fake Wizard of Oz.

[pbrower2a]

(01-10-2021, 04:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-07-2021, 01:38 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-06-2021, 10:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't view what happened today as being anymore disgusting than what I watched take place all over the country last summer. As I told you before, I don't think/believe Biden won the election fair and square. Trump's response was adequate in my opinion. I understand the long standing tradition that we have as nation but I'm also realistic enough to understand that if the Democrats don't respect the rule of law like most everyone else the tradition we've shared as a nation will come to an end. I view both parties as equally responsible for what happened today. Like I said, the GOP is dead. On the other hand, the Republican base is here to stay. Political violence had already been used several times before today which now makes it an option from here forward.

I'll answer your objections in order:

• If you really believe what you wrote, you might be well advised to consider the dictionary definition of sedition: sedition [səˈdiSH(ə)n] conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch.  Nothing done by any of the protestors last summer (or any time recently) qualifies as sedition, but inciting a group of hyped-up Trumpists to invade the US Capitol certainly does.
  
• I assume you have an idea in mind that describes how "the Democrats don't respect the rule of law like most everyone else", so pray tell us. I'm sure its the product of the alt-media, so it's almost certainly outside my view plane.
  
• Both sides do it is nonsense, particularly in this case. I saw no actions by anyone associated with the Democrats contribute to this riot in any way.  I saw a few of their vets and former spooks take charge and keep people safe.
  
• What I saw was a group of conspiracy cultists following their cult-muse: DJT.  I also saw a few (certainly not all) Republicans looking at the carnage and deciding they were playing on the wrong team.
  

You should check out the definition of insurrection. Do you have two eyes and ears that work and a sound mind that is capable of reasoning? If you do, you haven't shown it for many years? Oh, I take that back. I saw it once many years ago when you knew that you lost a battle for control over a forum to me and a group of hard core American believers. Well, what took place back then is about to take place nationally with the Democrats in the position of making mistakes and losing control of everything. Welcome to the 4T.

Again, Classic X'er, your definition of what constitutes belief in America or identity as an American. Of all the great empires in history (and I refer to scale and power, and the US as the Empire of Liberty stacks up to all of those empires as rather imposing in power, durability, scale, and influence) less defines what makes one an American than any other. "American" does not imply any race, ethnicity, or religion. It does not imply any particular ideology. One can be a Ku Klux Klansman and an American or a Black Panther and an American (yuck -- but that is the truth!)
 
I remember one of your earlier incarnations telling someone to commit suicide, which is unconscionable. I took it up with the moderator and even suggested that you would be accepted if you repudiated and apologized for that statement. There are people in extreme depression or panic, and telling someone potentially suicidal on a ledge to jump would be cause for arrest. Maybe I am excessively literal about something like that, but you must assume that there are people who take every word literally. As that goes, one profession does take every word literally -- and that is the legal profession. 

By narrowing what it means to be an American in good standing, one simultaneously takes away liberty... and if the narrowing should be enough, then we simply have a Big Bad Evil Empire.  

Donald Trump is disgraced as no President in history. We have had failures, but no President has ever sought to nullify an election in favor of himself or a successor. Note well: one of the most reliable means of establishing a dictatorship is to nullify an election.  We accept electoral results that we dislike but cannot disprove (there would have to be very strong evidence of electoral fraud, such as masses of ballots discarded floating down a river that seem marked contrary to the result) or we accept whatever some leader says that the vote was. 

Events of January 6 look more like the Bolsheviks storming the Winter Palace in 1917 than they do like anything that we have ever seen in American history. Note well: there was an election for the Russian Constituent Assembly, but Vladimir Lenin nullified the vote that he lost because the 'wrong' people won. At that point the Soviet dictatorship began. 

I'm not accusing you, of course, of being a Commie. That is not your ideology. Yours better resembles that of Augusto Pinochet... but his regime was a soul-crushing as any Commie regime except that of the Khmer Rouge.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-11-2021, 03:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.

You don't have to go back that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.

[pbrower2a]

(01-11-2021, 05:05 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-11-2021, 11:27 AM)gabrielle Wrote: The American people have voted to give control of the White House, the Senate, and the House of Representatives to the Democrats. Georgia has turned blue, and the "Squad" is growing. In the aftermath of the thwarted insurrection, the president is facing a second impeachment. White House officials are abandoning ship, and several Republicans have joined in calling for his impeachment. Trump has been banned permanently from twitter and facebook, and parler is offline. Trump's approval ratings with the public have long been poor. Those who fomented rebellion in Congress are losing their major donors and facing heavy censure. Those who participated in the assault of the Capitol are being hunted down and arrested, with many of them making excuses and pleading mercy.

I don't know, Classic Xer, it looks to me like it is your side that is losing.

Aren't you the one who is giving up on politics and going back to focusing on art?

Uh, typically the electoral politics goes into hibernation when the last vote is decided. Then comes what people vote about -- administering the government apparatus and legislating to make the laws that (ideally) make a better universe in which we live. For those who decide that they want to be re-elected (and political power that goes with elective office, I have heard, is only about as addictive as heroin) the next two to six years is about doing things that get one re-elected.  

Quote:Looks can be deceiving, we are a 50/50 nation

until one Party disgraces itself with incompetence, corruption, or abuse of power 

Quote:with one vote being the deciding factor with violence on the table and viewed as an option by both sides.

My side, I assure you, does not want violence. If someone does violence or disrupts lawful process, then I expect the legal and penal systems to do their work. My side can give polished answers on the question of why violence is unacceptable. 

Quote:If you look at the current political situation and use some imagination, you can see a nation that's positioned for war. Are you aware of all that it took for the Democratic party and some GOP to defeat Donald Trump?

Elections are not war and are not means of deciding who the enemies are. Plenty of conservatives now recognize Donald Trump for the dangerous, unprincipled, vindictive, dishonest, ruthless demagogue that he is -- and in the last few days they have come to recognize him as the wannabe dictator that he showed signs of being that liberals saw earlier. At this point it does not matter whether one saw him as such before he was elected or after he made such a complete ... I was about to say "horse's ass", but at least without the literal equine derriere a horse isn't going anywhere or doing anything useful... after the election this man is completely unfit to be President!   I don't want him wielding the nuclear football or having access to information at any level of classification. If I were a physician I would not trust him with access to confidential medical records because he would exploit them for gain or gratification. (Medical records are privileged enough that anyone who gets unauthorized access through deliberate or reckless actions faces prison time. Medical ethics require prosecution of anyone who breaches the security of medical records).

Quote:Lets see, it several months of on going violence and covid restrictions, a continuous fear campaign that was waged for several months by the media, illegal court decisions in some key states battle ground states, the assistance of big tech oligarchs controlling relevant information and eliminating voices of decent and political opposition and contributing hundreds of millions dollars and an absent candidate who barely left home who didn't have much to say when asked pertinent and relevant questions relating to known agenda's is what all it took to win the election. 

Wow! How did you learn how to write such an incoherent, logically-stretched piece of prose? Certainly not Freshman Composition at a genuine college. The violence has largely been on Trump's side (we liberals denounce any rioters, vandals, assaulters, and looters even before we protest at something like a Black Lives Matters rally. Contrary to a reactionary myth, we liberals are anything but soft on crime. 

Donald Trump has created much of the cause for fear. COVID-19 has already taken about as many lives as either the population of Bakersfield, California or Cleveland, Ohio... more than six times the combat death toll of unpopular wars in Korea or Vietnam. Our Coward-in-Chief has appeased a murderous invader once we have been taking a death toll resembling a very bad war. If Americans nationwide had taken the measures that my state, three states with land borders, and the two that have borders in lakes (Illinois and Minnesota) then the death tolls would be far lower than they are. Instead governors of Iowa, Nebraska, and South Dakota chose to open their states to tourist dollars... and made their states nexuses for the spread of COVID-19. This is not a partisan swipe; I commend the Republican governors of Indiana and Ohio who shut down their states as tightly as mine. There have been times in which I have been all dressed up with no place to go except for a grocery store, hardware store, teller or take-out window, or medical clinic. That's one way to keep people from traveling and spreading the disease. 

Technological oligarchs controlling information? They can't squelch this:

The Communist Manifesto

[url=https://unabombermanifesto.com/]The "Unabom" Manifesto

[/url]    

Quote:Right now, we are a fascist Democratic country more than an American country without a trustworthy referee who is able to keep peace.

"fascist Democratic" is an oxymoron. That's not to say that everything that calls itself democratic is democratic; just think of the self-proclaimed "People's Democratic Republic of Korea" in which the Korean people have no meaningful say about their government, which is not at all a republic (it is for all practical purposes an absolute monarchy)... well it is in the northern part of Korea and not somewhere else in the world. The ideology in which I believe, which is humanistic, liberal democracy, is not unique to America.  Your idea of America sounds like one in which I would be completely welcome -- to a torture chamber, killing site, or slave-labor camp. Such I do not welcome.  

Quote:Yes, the Democratic side won but look at the position that the Democrats are in right now and look at how many freedoms and rights that the Democratic side has lost. We aren't three years into a crisis like Hoover and the Republican party was in 80 some years ago. The situation now is reversed I don't know where you live or much care for that matter. I don't know if fascism and plutocracy and master class determining who you are, what your worth, what you have to believe and accept was what you wanted or expected or not but that's what you got and you've been stuck with right now. How long will America go along with this arrangement? Well, I can't speak for seventy some million individuals who have the right to wage  war with a fascist regime and are here to do just that with some of  God's help of coarse.

The times are changing, as we see evidence of approach of the end of a Crisis Era. There will be new rules, formal and otherwise, in life and most people will accept them because they seem right. If I have any analogy, I look at the two Obama terms for their place in history much more like the first two terms of FDR as a partial recovery from a dangerous economic downturn. Obama may have been less effective in getting and retaining political power of the sort that FDR did. (The rich and powerful had the means with which to buy political support in elections, and those rich-and-powerful people promoted the sorts of people who firmly believe that no human suffering can ever be in excess in the name of profit and the indulgence of its fruits).

An economic elite that can consign people to poverty because such is best for profit, should it lack moral qualms against such, will create poverty as a means of controlling those who do the work. These people can fire you if you gripe or fail to smile. 

Donald Trump is the worst vehicle possible for this ideology because he is such an objectionable person. Maybe he is simply less competent than a Ronald Reagan. Voters in Reagan's time accepted the deal when it was new. Voters reject it now that it is stale.  

Quote:Did you see what all it took and how many wrongs were ignored for the Democratic party and some GOP to barely defeat Trump? I know several people who have been banned or had their posts deleted by Facebook and Twitter recently. One happened the other day during a discussion between a Biden supporter and a Trump supporter. The Trump supporter had their rights taken away before the eyes of the Biden supporter. So, who gave Facebook the power to do that in this country. The Democrats are making a big mistake right now. The GOP (Northeastern Wing) has no other choice but to go along with whatever the Democrats want to do right now because they supported Biden. Does that sound right, nice or seem American to you?

Facebook and Twitter are both free-enterprise entities! Much of the content is the sort that used to be offered as letters-to-the-editor in local newspapers. Incendiary, slanderous, libelous, illucid, and commercial messages get rejected. The editor can pare away irrelevancy at will. 

If we Democrats are making mistakes, then those are forced errors in which principle traps them. 

Quote:Here's the deal, we are being nice right now and we are waiting to see what the Democrats do with the power that a remnant of a group associated with a bygone era who are old and senile and on the verge of dying off gave them. Biden represents them. What you see here is child's play compared to what could begin to happen all over this country? I do not believe Americans voted for a fascist regime like the one that we clearly have in place today. I don't believe American voted to have their individual rights/freedoms taken away by Progressive courts. I don't believe Americans voted voted for a socialist system. I don't believe Americans voted to remove police funding and further weaken their authority either.

The generational cycle suggests that we are past due for the equivalent of a New Deal or are about due for a Marshall Plan. I'd love to see a Marshall Plan against something un-American: grinding poverty. As for fascism, Trump acts more like a fascist dictator than any prior President and much less than Biden. I'm not sure that you know what fascism means or how a fascist regime operates. 

Fascism has warning signs


   

If this doesn't seem familiar you must not have been in contact with news about the Trump Presidency. 

Quote:We have two countries here right now. We have a Democratic country that wants to change everything to suit its particular needs and keep itself and an American country that's represented by Republicans who are not interested in accommodating them/it or serving their/its  needs that I more or less represent here today. So, I suggest that you prepare to be stuck in between the side associated with the French Revolution (anarchy) and the guillotines and the side associated with the American Revolution and the American establishment as they more or less begin square off with one another like you're seeing here. I have already been through the shit the people  who supported Biden are going to through and be subjected to over the next four years as they learn that Biden and what's left of the old Democratic party has no control over or power to stop much much of anything these days.

We Democrats are no monolith. We are just as "American" as the other side, and many people who have recently been on that other side on most issues of voting have come to recognize Donald Trump for the Frankenstein monster that he is. Fascism is to democracy what a pedophile is to an innocent child. Pedophiles never tell their intended victims that they will feel pain and shame that they can never imagine and that will scar them for life. No, it will be some fun and attention. Fascists never tell people about the reduced wages, brutal management, torture chambers, secret police, slave-labor camps, meat-grinder wars, and death mills. They promise prosperity and national pride and give a People pain and shame that they can never imagine and that will scar them for the rest of their lives. Biden may be old-hat, but sometimes the familiar and predictable is far better than some "new and improved"  that is new only in its awfulness, and whose improvement is suspect.

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-11-2021, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-11-2021, 03:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.

You don't have to go back  that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.

Yep.  March 9, 2011.  The Republicans were blocking the ability of state workers to unionize.  An article written at the time... 

[Classic-Xer]

(01-11-2021, 08:46 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Again, Classic X'er, your definition of what constitutes belief in America or identity as an American. Of all the great empires in history (and I refer to scale and power, and the US as the Empire of Liberty stacks up to all of those empires as rather imposing in power, durability, scale, and influence) less defines what makes one an American than any other. "American" does not imply any race, ethnicity, or religion. It does not imply any particular ideology. One can be a Ku Klux Klansman and an American or a Black Panther and an American (yuck -- but that is the truth!)
 
I remember one of your earlier incarnations telling someone to commit suicide, which is unconscionable. I took it up with the moderator and even suggested that you would be accepted if you repudiated and apologized for that statement. There are people in extreme depression or panic, and telling someone potentially suicidal on a ledge to jump would be cause for arrest. Maybe I am excessively literal about something like that, but you must assume that there are people who take every word literally. As that goes, one profession does take every word literally -- and that is the legal profession. 

By narrowing what it means to be an American in good standing, one simultaneously takes away liberty... and if the narrowing should be enough, then we simply have a Big Bad Evil Empire.  

Donald Trump is disgraced as no President in history. We have had failures, but no President has ever sought to nullify an election in favor of himself or a successor. Note well: one of the most reliable means of establishing a dictatorship is to nullify an election.  We accept electoral results that we dislike but cannot disprove (there would have to be very strong evidence of electoral fraud, such as masses of ballots discarded floating down a river that seem marked contrary to the result) or we accept whatever some leader says that the vote was. 

Events of January 6 look more like the Bolsheviks storming the Winter Palace in 1917 than they do like anything that we have ever seen in American history. Note well: there was an election for the Russian Constituent Assembly, but Vladimir Lenin nullified the vote that he lost because the 'wrong' people won. At that point the Soviet dictatorship began. 

I'm not accusing you, of course, of being a Commie. That is not your ideology. Yours better resembles that of Augusto Pinochet... but his regime was a soul-crushing as any Commie regime except that of the Khmer Rouge.

Is the Democratic population free these days? How much power and authority does the Democratic party have over you and most of its base these days? Let's see, it spent months scaring its base into submission to the point where it was afraid to be vaccinated for Christ's sake. Mrs. Obama looked dumbfounded when she was asked by a reporter about that problem and what they planned to do to fix that problem. Whatever, you made your own choice which was the only choice that someone like you have these days.  

As far as the situation that took place between us many years ago, you took what I said to someone else literally when you should have recognized it as a sarcastic bluff like most everyone else did at the time.  Any how, what you guys did didn't matter in the greater scheme of things and the way things eventually turned out. I had an issue with a moderator upholding and applying a double standard. I basically used you to get to him and remove him. I was posting as the process of removing him was going on. You played a significant a role in that particular task at the time. My ideology is the same as Abe Lincoln, Ike, JFK, MLK, Reagan, Trump and most of the judges in the Supreme Court. I assume that you must be familiar with Classical Liberalism. According to my daughter, they're still teaching it to people her age in school today.

The event that took place on Jan 6th was a demonstration of willingness and capability and that's about it. You are over exaggerating the intent and significance again as usual.

[Eric the Green]

(01-11-2021, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-11-2021, 03:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.

You don't have to go back  that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.

Non-violent sit-in.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-12-2021, 12:37 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-11-2021, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-11-2021, 03:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.

You don't have to go back  that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.

Non-violent sit-in.

It doesn't change the fact that they forced their way in and took over the state capitol.

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-12-2021, 01:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-12-2021, 12:37 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-11-2021, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-11-2021, 03:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.

You don't have to go back  that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.

Non-violent sit-in.

It doesn't change the fact that they forced their way in and took over the state capitol.

It makes it a poorer match.  I don't think you will find anything perfectly matching, but Newfoundland and Wisconsin seem worth mentioning.  Curious that both are in North America.  I would guess that the governments are more ruthless elsewhere.

[pbrower2a]

(01-11-2021, 11:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-11-2021, 08:46 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Again, Classic X'er, your definition of what constitutes belief in America or identity as an American (differs greatly from mine). Of all the great empires in history (and I refer to scale and power, and the US as the Empire of Liberty stacks up to all of those empires as rather imposing in power, durability, scale, and influence) less defines what makes one an American than any other. "American" does not imply any race, ethnicity, or religion. It does not imply any particular ideology. One can be a Ku Klux Klansman and an American or a Black Panther and an American (yuck -- but that is the truth!)
 
.......

By narrowing what it means to be an American in good standing, one simultaneously takes away liberty... and if the narrowing should be enough, then we simply have a Big Bad Evil Empire.  

Donald Trump is disgraced as no President in history. We have had failures, but no President has ever sought to nullify an election in favor of himself or a successor. Note well: one of the most reliable means of establishing a dictatorship is to nullify an election.  We accept electoral results that we dislike but cannot disprove (there would have to be very strong evidence of electoral fraud, such as masses of ballots discarded floating down a river that seem marked contrary to the result) or we accept whatever some leader says that the vote was. 

Events of January 6 look more like the Bolsheviks storming the Winter Palace in 1917 than they do like anything that we have ever seen in American history. Note well: there was an election for the Russian Constituent Assembly, but Vladimir Lenin nullified the vote that he lost because the 'wrong' people won. At that point the Soviet dictatorship began. 

I'm not accusing you, of course, of being a Commie. That is not your ideology. Yours better resembles that of Augusto Pinochet... but his regime was a soul-crushing as any Commie regime except that of the Khmer Rouge.

Is the Democratic population free these days? How much power and authority does the Democratic party have over you and most of its base these days? Let's see, it spent months scaring its base into submission to the point where it was afraid to be vaccinated for Christ's sake. Mrs. Obama looked dumbfounded when she was asked by a reporter about that problem and what they planned to do to fix that problem. Whatever, you made your own choice which was the only choice that someone like you have these days.    

As far as the situation that took place between us many years ago, you took what I said to someone else literally when you should have recognized it as a sarcastic bluff like most everyone else did at the time.  Any how, what you guys did didn't matter in the greater scheme of things and the way things eventually turned out. I had an issue with a moderator upholding and applying a double standard. I basically used you to get to him and remove him. I was posting as the process of removing him was going on. You played a significant a role in that particular task at the time. My ideology is the same as Abe Lincoln, Ike, JFK, MLK, Reagan, Trump and most of the judges in the Supreme Court. I assume that you must be familiar with Classical Liberalism. According to my daughter, they're still teaching it to people her age in school today.

The event that took place on Jan 6th was a demonstration of willingness and capability and that's about it. You are over exaggerating the intent and significance  again as usual.

When one part of the populace is in danger of losing its freedom (unless it does horrible things to people such as messing with children, human trafficking, dealing drugs, or outright terrorism), then we are all at risk. Many ways exist in which to destroy democracy, and Donald Trump has done several of them while doing nothing to fortify freedom (unless your idea of freedom is little more than the privilege of the super-rich to further enhance their power, indulgence, and gain). 

No, your ideology cannot be the same as  Abe Lincoln, Ike, JFK, MLK, Reagan, Trump and most of the judges in the Supreme Court. They are different. Any attempt to compare Abe Lincoln to Donald Trump is like comparing  Tom Veryzer to Cal Ripken, Jr. because they were both major-league shortstops.  Trump got three Justices of the Supreme Court nominated and confirmed in a lockstep process that, like much that happened while he was President, will look increasingly shady as time passes. Trump's ideology is closer to that of Ayn Rand than about any other political thinker that I know, and his sexual mores seem to come from Hugh Hefner. 

I have compared Obama to Eisenhower for quality, temperament, and political values, and even noticed that an Obama win of the Presidency looks more like an Eisenhower win than any other before him, which suggests that Ike and Obama had similar constituencies. Both wiped out the Other Side with well-educated people, which is remarkable considering that they are from opposing Parties. 

About all that Trump has in common with JFK is a high-risk sex life that well-protected people could get away with in the 1940's and 1950's but can't do so now. See also Bill Clinton. Then again I can't imagine Donald Trump piloting a PT boat in a great national crisis because Trump is completely unreliable in human relationships. Martin Luther King? I vomit at the comparison. Let's start with the obvious: Martin Luther King won a Nobel Peace Prize for his heroic, courageous quest for freedom and human dignity -- and Trump has eroded both. 

If I see a connection between Reagan and Trump it is that Trump took Reagan's profits-first ideology that recognized some needs of the time (basically, for multitudes to reduce their expectations of the American dream in economic results, working cheaply at jobs far beneath their spirits so that profits would be increased and so in the end would opportunities emerge -- basically, you got that degree from college and you face the prospect of a long stay in a throwaway job? Work two such jobs to meet the rent, and make the best of "Do you want fries with that?" -- and always remember to consider working harder and longer for less as a cause for delight! Trump takes it to its preposterous extreme, endorsing what increasingly looks like an aristocratic order in which being born into the Right Family means more than does talent or ability, especially as the economy becomes increasingly monopolistic and economically-concentrated. 

I see more in common between Donald Trump and political leaders that many Americans despise. He has gone far into the pattern of a dictator. When he lost his re-election bid he expected the rest of us to deny the reality that we saw in official reports because His Glorious Leadership could only win in a landslide. He chooses to be among people who give him unlimited adulation, and he can't recognize that the crowds that attend his rallies are basically the same people. Do you know who else had rallies like that? Fidel Castro!

We have institutions far stronger than Donald Trump -- thank God! (Or should I say the Founding Fathers and other successors). Even Reagan believed that profits were the engine of social progress. With Trump, profit and executive compensation are rewards for being what one is, and those shut out -- well, they can suffer with smiles that they must affect if they are not to be fired from miserable jobs and cast into homelessness and hunger. Trump's vision is the sort that makes someone like Lenin, Mao, or Castro relevant. Do bad things and you get bad results. That's karma, not an idea originally American or even Western, but one that has become popular in America.

[Eric the Green]

(01-12-2021, 01:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-12-2021, 12:37 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-11-2021, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-11-2021, 03:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.

You don't have to go back  that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.

Non-violent sit-in.

It doesn't change the fact that they forced their way in and took over the state capitol.

But I don't think that was the fact, since it was non-violent. They just came in and occupied the place. It was like Occupy Wall Street.

[David Horn]

(01-11-2021, 11:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Is the Democratic population free these days? How much power and authority does the Democratic party have over you and most of its base these days? Let's see, it spent months scaring its base into submission to the point where it was afraid to be vaccinated for Christ's sake. Mrs. Obama looked dumbfounded when she was asked by a reporter about that problem and what they planned to do to fix that problem. Whatever, you made your own choice which was the only choice that someone like you have these days.   

What are you talking about?  The anti-vaxxers are all on your side, along with the anti-maskers and anti-rationalists in general.

[David Horn]

(01-12-2021, 06:16 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-12-2021, 01:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-12-2021, 12:37 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-11-2021, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-11-2021, 03:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I have been wondering about incidents similar to the Capitol Riots.  In Xenakis's forum, another poster actually found one.  In 1932 the governor of Newfoundland was considered corrupt.  A peaceful protest turned violent when the police tried to quell the people.  The mob drove the legislature and the governor out of the chambers.  This eventually resulted in Britain taking direct control of Newfoundland.  There were no democratic elections in Newfoundland until they eventually joined Canada, the only colony that was kicked out of the British Empire.

Check out the Wiki article if you are curious.

You don't have to go back  that far. A group of Left Wing protestors stormed the Wisconsin state capitol and shut it down within the last 20 years.

Non-violent sit-in.

It doesn't change the fact that they forced their way in and took over the state capitol.

It makes it a poorer match.  I don't think you will find anything perfectly matching, but Newfoundland and Wisconsin seem worth mentioning.  Curious that both are in North America.  I would guess that the governments are more ruthless elsewhere.

Here's a close analog from 1874.  With Grant out of office, the attempt to overthrow the Republican governor was successful the second time.

[pbrower2a]

In the end the rationalists win on everything but compassion and aesthetics. I can't explain what causes a woman to bond with her child, why we find overt crime so abominable, or why I find a piece of glorious counterpoint wonderful or magnificent scenery enthralling... I concede on those. Those hardly challenge reason. (Maybe we can't be too rational if we are to retain some of the animal instincts that make us human instead of machines). As someone possibly too rational for his own good -- which goes with the territory -- I can see the consequences of unfeeling behavior in people who deny feelings, fun, conscience, and aesthetics.

Rationalists know what fights to pick and usually get the upper hand. All that thwarts reason is brute force, as in "Believe this doctrine or you will be burned at the auto-da-fe". The political or religious order that can enforce so hard a choice typically loses its economic efficiency and its ability to advance technologically.

Anti-vaxxers kill their children. Anti-mask advocates who spread COVID-19 might as well be carrying live rattlesnakes because COVID-19 is about as likely to kill as a rattlesnake bite.