What will happen if someone lives by 3T values in the 1T?

[disasterzone]

And does what people in the 3T do?

[disasterzone]

(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)taramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

What about someone living by 2T ideals in the 1T, defending those ideals very fiercely, and saying and living what the new prophets would say and questioning the order? Would they have an easier time or a harder time than the 3T person?

[disasterzone]

How would the Civics see the 2T person? Especially one who was big and into identity politics, lamenting that their group was less discriminated against and shoved in a box before the 1T and saying they won't take it? How would the Nomads see such a person in the 1T?

[Mikebert]

(10-08-2016, 04:00 PM)disasterzone Wrote: And does what people in the 3T do?

This.

[pbrower2a]

(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)aramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

Precisely. The American High (1946-1963), in which nostalgia for the Roaring Twenties was unthinkable, will likely serve as a possible analogy. Trying to live as if it were the Roaring Twenties required that one live with the accoutrements of the Roaring Twenties, most of which had been scrapped, lost, unavailable, or unserviceable. In big cities, housing from the time had often become, or was about to become, slums.

By the late 1930s things were better for most Americans than they were in the late 1920s. Securities values had not recovered from the heady prices of the late 1920s, and they would not reach those prices again until the 1950s. People blamed bad behavior of the 1920s for then recent hardships and expected similar results for similar tendencies.

The last 4T was innocuous for most Americans; the few exceptions were war casualties. For some ethnic groups (like Polish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, and to a considerable extent Irish-Americans) the 4T was the time in which they started to get some respectability.

Elsewhere? For European Jews, for the Spanish Left, for political offenders who ended up in the maws of the Gestapo and OGPU, for just about anyone living between Berlin and Vienna on the west and and either Leningrad*, Moscow, or Stalingrad*, and for denizens of Rotterdam, Coventry, Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, Shanghai, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki the 4T was an unspeakable horror. This time we Americans might not be so fortunate as Americans of the last 4T. Mister, we could use a man like 'Abram' Lincoln again!

The destructive weapons of our time are far more devastating, and there are fewer places in which to hide. Should we Americans get pathological government (Donald Trump will not be the last threat of such when he loses; the stresses of a 4T have typically created openings for demagogues), then we could have a 4T that causes many American cities to look like Dresden at the end of World War II. Most of the nastiness of this time reflects efforts of privileged elites to maintain the business practices and economic inequality of the recent 3T, hoping to enshrine such for all time. Such is failure.

But I digress. The recent 3T will be mocked in humor of the next 1T when it is not faulted for all the faults of the current Crisis, let alone the tragedy and material destruction at the end of the Crisis.

Just imagine what the world would be like had the victorious Allies decided to lighten up on reparations from a defeated German people in the shaky Weimar Republic. Hitler becomes an irrelevancy; large Jewish populations flourish in Europe, prospering in countries like Poland and Romania that never underwent Communist rule. We may have cures for cancer and prion diseases... and have life expectancies in the 110s. The Federal Republic of China 'missed out' on Maoism and catapulted into prosperity by 1970. Korea might have gotten independence in a form resembling Dominion status in Canada. The only separation in India is of Burma.

[Odin]

They will get chewed out for "being stuck in the culture wars".

[Eric the Green]

(10-08-2016, 05:15 PM)disasterzone Wrote:

(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)taramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

What about someone living by 2T ideals in the 1T, defending those ideals very fiercely, and saying and living what the new prophets would say and questioning the order? Would they have an easier time or a harder time than the 3T person?

Probably so.

The 3T was culture wars. So the conformists were embattled, but powerful. All one has to do is associate with your side. In the 2T, conformists were on the ropes. So living 2T values in the conformist 1T would be a bit harder. But the beatnicks did it, toward the latter part of the 1T, and they got along pretty well and were setting trends that expanded in the 2T. Except Ginsberg, who was arrested for his poetry. The human potential movement, which expanded in the 2T, began in the First.

But those who had been communists in the 4T, they got slammed in the 1T. So it may be a question of some people living 4T values having a hard time in a 1T.

[pbrower2a]

Someone living as in a 2T way in the 3T will be pre-seasonal.

[gabrielle]

(10-09-2016, 02:32 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)aramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

Precisely. The American High (1946-1963), in which nostalgia for the Roaring Twenties was unthinkable, will likely serve as a possible analogy. Trying to live as if it were the Roaring Twenties required that one live with the accoutrements of the Roaring Twenties, most of which had been scrapped, lost, unavailable, or unserviceable. In big cities, housing from the time had often become, or was about to become, slums.

By the late 1930s things were better for most Americans than they were in the late 1920s. Securities values had not recovered from the heady prices of the late 1920s, and they would not reach those prices again until the 1950s. People blamed bad behavior of the 1920s for then recent hardships and expected similar results for similar tendencies.

The last 4T was innocuous for most Americans; the few exceptions were war casualties. For some ethnic groups (like Polish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, and to a considerable extent Irish-Americans) the 4T was the time in which they started to get some respectability.  

Elsewhere? For European Jews, for the Spanish Left, for political offenders who ended up in the maws of the Gestapo and OGPU, for just about anyone living between Berlin and Vienna on the west and and either Leningrad*, Moscow, or Stalingrad*, and for denizens of Rotterdam, Coventry, Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, Shanghai, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki the 4T was an unspeakable horror. This time we Americans might not be so fortunate as Americans of the last 4T. Mister, we could use a man like 'Abram' Lincoln again!

The destructive weapons of our time are far more devastating, and there are fewer places in which to hide. Should we Americans get pathological government (Donald Trump will not be the last threat of such when he loses; the stresses of a 4T have typically created openings for demagogues), then we could have a 4T that causes many American cities to look like Dresden at the end of World War II. Most of the nastiness of this time reflects efforts of privileged elites to maintain the business practices and economic inequality of the recent 3T, hoping to enshrine such for all time. Such is failure.

But I digress. The recent 3T will be mocked in humor of the next 1T when it is not faulted for all the faults of the current Crisis, let alone the tragedy and material destruction at the end of the Crisis.

Just imagine what the world would be like had the victorious Allies decided to lighten up on reparations from a defeated German people in the shaky Weimar Republic. Hitler becomes an irrelevancy; large Jewish populations flourish in Europe, prospering in countries like Poland and Romania that never underwent Communist rule. We may have cures for cancer and prion diseases... and have life expectancies in the 110s. The Federal Republic of China 'missed out' on Maoism and catapulted into prosperity by 1970. Korea might have gotten independence in a form resembling Dominion status in Canada. The only separation in India is of Burma.

Umm, the Great Depression???  Pretty sure most Americans were worse off in the 1930s than in the 1920s.  Perhaps things were starting to ease up a little by the late thirties, but then came the war years--the rationing, the fears of fascism, the loss of loved ones in war.  Of course, the miseries of the last 4T were due to the excesses and errors of previous turnings, but I think by the following 1T people were starting to forget the inequalities of the 3T and nostalgically remember the fun and glamour. 

There's nothing wrong with remembering the fun times, if you also remember the bad times, and how they came to be.

[pbrower2a]

(10-10-2016, 03:11 PM)gabrielle Wrote:

(10-09-2016, 02:32 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)aramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

Precisely. The American High (1946-1963), in which nostalgia for the Roaring Twenties was unthinkable, will likely serve as a possible analogy. Trying to live as if it were the Roaring Twenties required that one live with the accoutrements of the Roaring Twenties, most of which had been scrapped, lost, unavailable, or unserviceable. In big cities, housing from the time had often become, or was about to become, slums.

By the late 1930s things were better for most Americans than they were in the late 1920s. Securities values had not recovered from the heady prices of the late 1920s, and they would not reach those prices again until the 1950s. People blamed bad behavior of the 1920s for then recent hardships and expected similar results for similar tendencies.

The last 4T was innocuous for most Americans; the few exceptions were war casualties. For some ethnic groups (like Polish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, and to a considerable extent Irish-Americans) the 4T was the time in which they started to get some respectability.  

Elsewhere? For European Jews, for the Spanish Left, for political offenders who ended up in the maws of the Gestapo and OGPU, for just about anyone living between Berlin and Vienna on the west and and either Leningrad*, Moscow, or Stalingrad*, and for denizens of Rotterdam, Coventry, Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, Shanghai, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki the 4T was an unspeakable horror. This time we Americans might not be so fortunate as Americans of the last 4T. Mister, we could use a man like 'Abram' Lincoln again!

The destructive weapons of our time are far more devastating, and there are fewer places in which to hide. Should we Americans get pathological government (Donald Trump will not be the last threat of such when he loses; the stresses of a 4T have typically created openings for demagogues), then we could have a 4T that causes many American cities to look like Dresden at the end of World War II. Most of the nastiness of this time reflects efforts of privileged elites to maintain the business practices and economic inequality of the recent 3T, hoping to enshrine such for all time. Such is failure.

But I digress. The recent 3T will be mocked in humor of the next 1T when it is not faulted for all the faults of the current Crisis, let alone the tragedy and material destruction at the end of the Crisis.

Just imagine what the world would be like had the victorious Allies decided to lighten up on reparations from a defeated German people in the shaky Weimar Republic. Hitler becomes an irrelevancy; large Jewish populations flourish in Europe, prospering in countries like Poland and Romania that never underwent Communist rule. We may have cures for cancer and prion diseases... and have life expectancies in the 110s. The Federal Republic of China 'missed out' on Maoism and catapulted into prosperity by 1970. Korea might have gotten independence in a form resembling Dominion status in Canada. The only separation in India is of Burma.

Umm, the Great Depression???  Pretty sure most Americans were worse off in the 1930s than in the 1920s.  Perhaps things were starting to ease up a little by the late thirties, but then came the war years--the rationing, the fears of fascism, the loss of loved ones in war.  Of course, the miseries of the last 4T were due to the excesses and errors of previous turnings, but I think by the following 1T people were starting to forget the inequalities of the 3T and nostalgically remember the fun and glamour. 

There's nothing wrong with remembering the fun times, if you also remember the bad times, and how they came to be.

Singin' in the Rain? Some Like It Hot? Two of my favorite movies, both from the American High and depicting the latter part of the previous 3T. Nostalgia for the late 1920s? Hardly. Running away from Chicago gangsters might create some hilarious situations, but only for the audience. Watching the career demise of the full-of-herself Lena Lamont while the more rational characters like "Don Lockwood" (Gene Kelly), "Cosmo Brown" (Donald O'Connor), and Kathy Selden (Debbie Reynolds) prevail suggests something about America pnce it would become more serious and rational. And could I suggest Sunset Boulevard as the logical sequel for Singin' in the Rain, at least for the Lena Lamont character, someone (in Sunset Boulevard, Nora Desmond) who made big money in the Silent era but whose talents were terribly limited and unsuited to the "talkies"? Nora Desmond exemplifies someone trying to live in the 3T in a 1T... great story in cinematic form.

...America had not solved all its problems in the late 1930s, but in material terms it was in far better shape. People had more cars, refrigerators, and washing machines per capita, leaving little doubt that working-class and middle-class people were better off in 1939 than in 1929. The economic elites were not better off, of course. But Americans would be in better shape for the hardships of restricted consumerism in the following war. The cultural trends of the 1930s ensured that the Pearl Harbor attack would be a gigantic blunder. People who thought that America was a decadent collection of playboys found that assessment terribly wrong.

America had saved itself from its greatest threat of fascism; the KKK was dying (although, to be sure, it started to collapse before the Great Depression got underway). The mass culture had become sanitary while losing no quality. America became grossly intolerant of gangsterism (and would later compare its WWII enemies to gangsters like John Dillinger and Al Capone). The Great Depression and the Second World War had their roots in the preceding Degeneracy of World War I and the Roaring Twenties, the latter featuring one of the most destructive bubbles then possible, one that resulted from American government deciding that a speculative boom was the perfect way to accelerate economic growth.

[disasterzone]

They could get the same returns as the last 3T. It's just they would have to be such extreme risk takers it wouldn't even be funny. I wonder though, since it will be mocked, how would they react to someone who lived the 3T life in the 1T and had wild business success from their risky actions and was very lavish about it? Would there be a lot of resentment?

[disasterzone]

What about someone who lived like it was the 2T in the 1T? Where they used a lot of experimental medicine/drugs, were very back to nature and technology rejecting, emphasized spirituality and close relationships, extreme individuality, self celebration, and identity politics? Where they kept disobeying society and telling them how oppressive they are and using a lot of things people consider "pseudo science" or woo.

[disasterzone]

.

(10-08-2016, 05:21 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(10-08-2016, 05:15 PM)disasterzone Wrote:

(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)taramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

What about someone living by 2T ideals in the 1T, defending those ideals very fiercely, and saying and living what the new prophets would say and questioning the order? Would they have an easier time or a harder time than the 3T person?

They would have a harder time however as those people would eventually have numbers on their side change will ultimately happen and some more open minded older folk may join them.

(10-10-2016, 07:26 AM)Odin Wrote: They will get chewed out for "being stuck in the culture wars".

What about someone who lived like it was the 2T in the 1T? Where they used a lot of experimental medicine/drugs, were very back to nature and technology rejecting, emphasized spirituality and close relationships, extreme individuality, self celebration, and identity politics? Where they kept disobeying society and telling them how oppressive they are and using a lot of things people consider "pseudo science" or woo. Rejecting the pharmaceutical industry full scale and rejecting the corporate culture or conformity of the office. Speaking against people who hired robots or had sex robots. Telling the people they weren't close enough and used machines to replace humanity.

[Eric the Green]

(10-12-2016, 08:06 PM)disasterzone Wrote: .

(10-08-2016, 05:21 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(10-08-2016, 05:15 PM)disasterzone Wrote:

(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)taramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

What about someone living by 2T ideals in the 1T, defending those ideals very fiercely, and saying and living what the new prophets would say and questioning the order? Would they have an easier time or a harder time than the 3T person?

They would have a harder time however as those people would eventually have numbers on their side change will ultimately happen and some more open minded older folk may join them.

(10-10-2016, 07:26 AM)Odin Wrote: They will get chewed out for "being stuck in the culture wars".

What about someone who lived like it was the 2T in the 1T? Where they used a lot of experimental medicine/drugs, were very back to nature and technology rejecting, emphasized spirituality and close relationships, extreme individuality, self celebration, and identity politics? Where they kept disobeying society and telling them how oppressive they are and using a lot of things people consider "pseudo science" or woo. Rejecting the pharmaceutical industry full scale and rejecting the corporate culture or conformity of the office. Speaking against people who hired robots or had sex robots. Telling the people they weren't close enough and used machines to replace humanity.

Early in the 1T: ignored. Later in the 1T: looked upon as pioneers, trendsetters and wayshowers by some people, and admired and influential when the 2T comes in earnest.

[disasterzone]

(10-10-2016, 10:09 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-08-2016, 05:15 PM)disasterzone Wrote:

(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)taramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

What about someone living by 2T ideals in the 1T, defending those ideals very fiercely, and saying and living what the new prophets would say and questioning the order? Would they have an easier time or a harder time than the 3T person?

Probably so.

The 3T was culture wars. So the conformists were embattled, but powerful. All one has to do is associate with your side. In the 2T, conformists were on the ropes. So living 2T values in the conformist 1T would be a bit harder. But the beatnicks did it, toward the latter part of the 1T, and they got along pretty well and were setting trends that expanded in the 2T. Except Ginsberg, who was arrested for his poetry. The human potential movement, which expanded in the 2T, began in the First.

But those who had been communists in the 4T, they got slammed in the 1T. So it may be a question of some people living 4T values having a hard time in a 1T.

I wonder if there will be the next incarnation of McCarthyism in the next 1T. I think there will be hate towards people who have holdover views from the 4T because they'll see them as disrupting the peaceful society. I think with the internet, it's definitely possible. We have witch hunts now for different people except it's on more people and it spreads faster on an online platform.

Since I wasn't there, what happened to members of the GI generation who thought like the Beats in the 1T but weren't a part of the movement? What happened to them and what did they do to cope with the era?

I also wonder what would happen to a 4T type person who's angry that the revolution they wanted never happened and thinking everything's too wishy washy and mild. Someone who wants to push their 4T ideology on the max and believes that should have been the solution.

[pbrower2a]

(10-12-2016, 08:12 PM)disasterzone Wrote:

(10-10-2016, 10:09 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-08-2016, 05:15 PM)disasterzone Wrote:

(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)taramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

What about someone living by 2T ideals in the 1T, defending those ideals very fiercely, and saying and living what the new prophets would say and questioning the order? Would they have an easier time or a harder time than the 3T person?

Probably so.

The 3T was culture wars. So the conformists were embattled, but powerful. All one has to do is associate with your side. In the 2T, conformists were on the ropes. So living 2T values in the conformist 1T would be a bit harder. But the beatnicks did it, toward the latter part of the 1T, and they got along pretty well and were setting trends that expanded in the 2T. Except Ginsberg, who was arrested for his poetry. The human potential movement, which expanded in the 2T, began in the First.

But those who had been communists in the 4T, they got slammed in the 1T. So it may be a question of some people living 4T values having a hard time in a 1T.

I wonder if there will be the next incarnation of McCarthyism in the next 1T. I think there will be hate towards people who have holdover views from the 4T because they'll see them as disrupting the peaceful society. I think with the internet, it's definitely possible. We have witch hunts now for different people except it's on more people and it spreads faster on an online platform.

Since I wasn't there, what happened to members of the GI generation who thought like the Beats in the 1T but weren't a part of the movement? What happened to them and what did they do to cope with the era?

I also wonder what would happen to a 4T type person who's angry that the revolution they wanted never happened and thinking everything's too wishy washy and mild. Someone who wants to push their 4T ideology on the max and believes that should have been the solution.

Like Republicans of Thomas Jefferson's generation who fell of Jacobinism and GIs of John Kennedy's generation who fell for Communism, both the 'wrong' and 'unpatriotic' rivals of the more orthodox and accepted collectivism of the time, there will likely be some temptation for Millennial adults who stay aligned with a Crisis-era ally who turns enemy or who promises a more complete revolution.

So if America becomes part of an 'Islamic civil war' and the side that we end up with starts pressing its advantages to create its own revolution in America... that is one possibility.

[Eric the Green]

(10-12-2016, 08:12 PM)disasterzone Wrote:

(10-10-2016, 10:09 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-08-2016, 05:15 PM)disasterzone Wrote:

(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)taramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

What about someone living by 2T ideals in the 1T, defending those ideals very fiercely, and saying and living what the new prophets would say and questioning the order? Would they have an easier time or a harder time than the 3T person?

Probably so.

The 3T was culture wars. So the conformists were embattled, but powerful. All one has to do is associate with your side. In the 2T, conformists were on the ropes. So living 2T values in the conformist 1T would be a bit harder. But the beatnicks did it, toward the latter part of the 1T, and they got along pretty well and were setting trends that expanded in the 2T. Except Ginsberg, who was arrested for his poetry. The human potential movement, which expanded in the 2T, began in the First.

But those who had been communists in the 4T, they got slammed in the 1T. So it may be a question of some people living 4T values having a hard time in a 1T.

I wonder if there will be the next incarnation of McCarthyism in the next 1T. I think there will be hate towards people who have holdover views from the 4T because they'll see them as disrupting the peaceful society. I think with the internet, it's definitely possible. We have witch hunts now for different people except it's on more people and it spreads faster on an online platform.

Since I wasn't there, what happened to members of the GI generation who thought like the Beats in the 1T but weren't a part of the movement? What happened to them and what did they do to cope with the era?

In my own experience and recollection, most of the GI Generation members did not think like Beats or hippies or other non-conformists until the time of the Beats or later in the 2T. There were pioneers from older generations quietly doing work which would contribute to the Awakening later, such as Hoffman who invented LSD, and psychologists like Carl Rogers and Abraham Maslow and philosophers like Alan Watts. Many GIs, especially younger ones, experienced the Awakening when it came around 1966, just as younger folks did, and changed their lives because of it. Others hung on to the old ways and defended them against their Boomer children.

Quote:I also wonder what would happen to a 4T type person who's angry that the revolution they wanted never happened and thinking everything's too wishy washy and mild. Someone who wants to push their 4T ideology on the max and believes that should have been the solution.

They were silenced and blacklisted.

[Warren Dew]

(10-12-2016, 08:12 PM)disasterzone Wrote: I also wonder what would happen to a 4T type person who's angry that the revolution they wanted never happened and thinking everything's too wishy washy and mild. Someone who wants to push their 4T ideology on the max and believes that should have been the solution.

Can you give some examples of what you might be talking about?  Fourth turnings are basically pushed to the max already.  Pushing things further would involve stuff like executing all southern whites after the Civil War, or nuking Japanese and German cities after they had surrendered unconditionally; I'd think advocates of such things would just be ignored.

[pbrower2a]

(10-14-2016, 08:34 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(10-12-2016, 08:12 PM)disasterzone Wrote: I also wonder what would happen to a 4T type person who's angry that the revolution they wanted never happened and thinking everything's too wishy washy and mild. Someone who wants to push their 4T ideology on the max and believes that should have been the solution.

Can you give some examples of what you might be talking about?  Fourth turnings are basically pushed to the max already.  Pushing things further would involve stuff like executing all southern whites after the Civil War, or nuking Japanese and German cities after they had surrendered unconditionally; I'd think advocates of such things would just be ignored.

Indeed, the 4T typically ends because further humiliation and subjection of the defeated becomes unwise. Although the Allies saw fit to execute Holocaust perpetrators, Axis war criminals, and wartime traitors to Allied countries, they did not see fit to punish the low-ranking soldier who did not choose what army or navy he was to join. If one is a victor, someone like this has no role in the post-war world except as an example of what is to be rejected:

Quote:Kenji Doihara (土肥原 賢二 Doihara Kenji?, 8 August 1883 – 23 December 1948) was a general in the Imperial Japanese Army in World War II. He was instrumental in the Japanese invasion of Manchuria for which he earned fame taking the nickname 'Lawrence of Manchuria', a reference to the Lawrence of Arabia, although according to Jamie Bisher this flattering sobriquet was rather misapplied given that Colonel T.E. Lawrence fought to liberate, not to oppress a people.[1] Furthermore, according to the opinion of his military chief in Manchuria, Lieutenant-General Ishiwara Kanji, his heavy addiction to opium contributed to his unreliability as an army officer.[2]

As a leading intelligence officer he played a key role to the Japanese machinations leading to the occupation of large parts of China, the destabilization of the country and the disintegration of the traditional structure of the Chinese society in order to diminish reaction to the Japanese plans using highly unconventional methods. He became the mastermind of the Manchurian drug trade, and the real boss and sponsor behind every kind of gang and underworld activity in China (see Controversy section). After the end of World War II, he was prosecuted for war crimes in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. He was found guilty, sentenced to death and was hanged in December 1948.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenji_Doihara

The Allied tribunals for the prosecution of major war criminals made sure that this sort of person got culpability for the crimes of a thug regime and its military failure, and that his type would never become a role model for Japanese leadership again. So send the soldiers back to the countryside for the rice harvest to prevent a famine...

The best way to win a war is to take away the will to fight of the enemy. Such is better done with humaneness (a difficult commodity to furnish during an apocalyptic war) than with genocidal brutality. In 1945 the Americans and British left the defeated peoples of the Axis who came under their dominion, however temporary, nothing to fight against. In 1939 the Nazis left the Poles every reason to maintain the war even as their soldiers were defeated. Poland was a dangerous place for a German soldier even where Germany fully annexed the territory. Germany after World War II gave the British or American soldier little cause to watch his back.

So let the defeated people keep their farms, businesses, and merchandise, and let the small businesses (if not plutocrats themselves war criminals) do what they do best. The soldiers are the foreigners, and the recently-defeated people do the work that they did before the war, and the people recently defeated can pay attention again to planting and reaping grain, tending and butchering livestock, doing industrial work to make the decencies of life, and doing construction work to repair and replace the old infrastructure damaged or destroyed in warfare.  Oh, yes -- remove the fearsome Kempeitai, Gestapo, or Mukhabarat from public life, if necessary with "extreme prejudice".

[disasterzone]

(10-14-2016, 08:34 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(10-12-2016, 08:12 PM)disasterzone Wrote: I also wonder what would happen to a 4T type person who's angry that the revolution they wanted never happened and thinking everything's too wishy washy and mild. Someone who wants to push their 4T ideology on the max and believes that should have been the solution.

Can you give some examples of what you might be talking about?  Fourth turnings are basically pushed to the max already.  Pushing things further would involve stuff like executing all southern whites after the Civil War, or nuking Japanese and German cities after they had surrendered unconditionally; I'd think advocates of such things would just be ignored.

An example is someone upset that their solution to the 4T wasn't taken because things went a totally different way than what they think should have happened. It could be someone who was the loser in a war in some cases and now on the demonized side, other cases it could be someone who wanted a solution that the people rejected, even if they weren't at war with the other ideology at the time. Like a person who wanted the South to succeed from the union and was still angry at Abraham Lincoln. Or maybe even someone who was angry that communism wasn't used as the solution to the great depression and wished they had that type of a revolution in the US.