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An interesting read. Though this comparison is more concise.
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Informed people don't use YouTube videos by cranks as legitimate sources of information. 
Oh, and implying that Anita Sarkeesian is "SJW Jesus" is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen.
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(05-22-2016, 09:55 AM)Odin Wrote: Informed people don't use YouTube videos by cranks as legitimate sources of information.
Where exactly did I say my last video was a 'legitimate' source? I know you have trouble reading English Odin, but seriously you really need to stop this posting nonsense business. You're embarrassing yourself.
Quote:Oh, and implying that Anita Sarkeesian is "SJW Jesus" is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen.
Actually she seems to be more like St. Augustine than Jesus. A third hand copy of a copy. If you listen to her long enough you eventually realize she's a babbling idiot or you join the SJW cult.
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(05-21-2016, 06:48 PM)TnT Wrote: (05-20-2016, 09:50 PM)radind Wrote: If Clinton is elected, I would expect increasing pressure against Christian values.
Let's see, Christian values, what would those be?
1. Self-righteousness
2. Sanctimony
3. A never-ending desire to make OTHER PEOPLE adhere to standards they don't live up to.
4. A multiple millenium history of bloodshed for those who wish to be left alone.
5. Intolerance of other "religions."
6. A belief system that simply staggers the intellect.
Well, that's probably enough. And yes, it would be nice if there could be increasing pressure against the above.
...and none of those values fit the Gospels!
OK, I will have to state that people are not sinful because of 'impure thoughts'. Actions do the damage, and thought doesn't.
Christians have less to fear from liberal secularists than they have to fear even from... fellow Christians.
"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapons are surprise, fear, ruthlessness, and fanatical devotion to the Pope!"
Let alone Commies, fascists, and ISIS!
(from some of the greatest comedians ever)
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(05-22-2016, 12:14 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: (05-21-2016, 06:48 PM)TnT Wrote: (05-20-2016, 09:50 PM)radind Wrote: If Clinton is elected, I would expect increasing pressure against Christian values.
Let's see, Christian values, what would those be?
1. Self-righteousness
2. Sanctimony
3. A never-ending desire to make OTHER PEOPLE adhere to standards they don't live up to.
4. A multiple millenium history of bloodshed for those who wish to be left alone.
5. Intolerance of other "religions."
6. A belief system that simply staggers the intellect.
Well, that's probably enough. And yes, it would be nice if there could be increasing pressure against the above.
...and none of those values fit the Gospels!
OK, I will have to state that people are not sinful because of 'impure thoughts'. Actions do the damage, and thought doesn't.
Christians have less to fear from liberal secularists than they have to fear even from... fellow Christians.
"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapons are surprise, fear, ruthlessness, and fanatical devotion to the Pope!"
Let alone Commies, fascists, and ISIS!
(from some of the greatest comedians ever)
I just don’t see attacks from other Christians. I can understand that those agreeing with the secular agenda would have no sense of being under attack.
Quote:https://carm.org/sermons
… "Dr. James Emery White wrote on crosswalk.com and asked, "Are Christians in America under attack?" He mentions how the United States is becoming a secular country, and he is right. Not only is the United States very secular but also it is anti-Christian. He rightfully declares, however, that Christians in America are not persecuted nearly to the degree that they are in such places as "Nigeria, Iran, Pakistan, Egypt or Syria." He is right, we aren't. But it is increasing. Mr. White mentions the growing pressure to marginalize Christianity and ultimately dominate it by using law to suppress religious freedom.”…
http://www.christianbiblereference.org/f...Values.htm
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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05-22-2016, 03:10 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-22-2016, 03:11 PM by Kinser79.)
Uh...I have news for you. Christians in Syria are being killed. I don't think anyone in the us is killing Christians.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7121/i...christians
In Egypt Coptic Christians are routinely discriminated against, almost on par with Blacks in the Jim Crow days.
https://www.mnnonline.org/news/egypt-pra...hristians/
In Nigeria Boko Haram regularly murders Christians or forces them to convert to Islam.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014...ution.html
Where exactly in secular America are Christians being murdered or discriminated against? By whom are they being discriminated against? Inquiring minds want to know. I will require citation too. I don't care about "feels".
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(05-22-2016, 03:10 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Uh...I have news for you. Christians in Syria are being killed. I don't think anyone in the us is killing Christians.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7121/i...christians
In Egypt Coptic Christians are routinely discriminated against, almost on par with Blacks in the Jim Crow days.
https://www.mnnonline.org/news/egypt-pra...hristians/
In Nigeria Boko Haram regularly murders Christians or forces them to convert to Islam.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014...ution.html
Where exactly in secular America are Christians being murdered or discriminated against? By whom are they being discriminated against? Inquiring minds want to know. I will require citation too. I don't care about "feels".
I think you misread the quote.
The point is that there is " growing pressure to marginalize Christianity".
Quote:... " He rightfully declares, however, that Christians in America are not persecuted nearly to the degree that they are in such places as "Nigeria, Iran, Pakistan, Egypt or Syria."...
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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(05-20-2016, 09:50 PM)radind Wrote: (05-20-2016, 09:17 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: (05-20-2016, 02:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: (05-20-2016, 01:54 PM)radind Wrote: In my opinion the majority in both parties is now Secular , not Christian. There was a time in history when Christians were the majority , but that time is past.
Cruz tried to make a case for some version of Christianity, but the GOP did not want that this round. I am glad that Cruz is out.
The GOP insider establishment is only concerned about their personal power and is rightfully afraid of Trump.
You have that right.
The GOP Establishment has never shown a willingness to sacrifice elite indulgence on behalf of Fundamentalist Christianity. It has made promises and blamed Democrats for the failure to implement the promises of school prayer, creationism, an abortion ban, and the outlawing of homosexuality.
School Prayer is already legal. Just because the Teaching Staff and Administration cannot initiate prayer there is no prohibitions on students initiating prayer. We actually do have Muslims where I live yes they do their prayers when required to by their religion without leaving school. Trust me kids do pray on test days.
Creationism is stupid, the very fact that on the human body the play area is right next to the sewage treatment facility only demonstrates that if there was a designer they weren't that intelligent. Never mind the fact that FACT of evolution is the very basis of all modern biology.
Banning abortion would only serve to drive the practice underground. This is potentially dangerous as you'll have people trying to solve that problem with coat hangers or worse having people taking dangerous concoctions of herbal remedies probably without the assistance of an experienced herbalist. Drinking a tincture of penny-royal will make a woman miscarry but taking too much of it will cause her to bleed to death when she does. Abortion is a necessary evil and the Christians are either going to have to learn to tolerate it or perhaps we could give them a state, fence it off and let them fend for themselves.
Outlawing homosexuality would only result in a law that is flagrantly broken and unenforceable. The US just got rid of its sodomy laws, none of them was really enforceable, that being said most people don't think the state has a role in what two consenting adults do in their bedroom. Much like most people don't think the state has a role in a woman's vagina.
(05-20-2016, 02:48 PM)Mikebert Wrote: Kinser, it is foolish for you to make the case for Trump here. It was not that long ago when you were saying a Trump presidency would be so bad it would trigger the revolution. Now you are saying it would be a good thing.
Whether or not Trump will be bad for the country exists independently of your opinion. It does not change just because you change your mind.
Because I've changed my mind I can say that it would be a good thing. Furthermore, those statements were based on wishful thinking that the material conditions for a revolution were there--they are not and never were there. Also the material basis for Marxism-Leninism is ebbing away. One either changes with the times or gets stuck in the past (like many of the Boomers here who still seem to be stuck in the 1990s).
Trump may be bad for the country, but Hillary is infinitely worse: We know her, she's been in DC since 1992 at least. She has all the worst impulses of the Establishment GOP and all of the worst impulses of the Establishment Dems. The worst people have managed to say about Trump with a shred of evidence is he sometimes says mean things on the internet. I'll take my chances with him.
I recommend reading the article I quoted in the first post of page 4 of this thread.
None of this changes my assessment that the country is now primarily a secular society. Christians will feel increasing pressure to adapt or go underground.
I don't see Trump as religious at all, but I don't expect him to attack Christianity.
If Clinton is elected, I would expect increasing pressure against Christian values.
Hillary says love trumps hate, and that what we need in this country is more love and kindness. It is Hillary who stands for Christian values. Trump trashes them in his every statement and behavior. That's attacking Christianity far more than any slogan that he or any Republican religious right figure might utter. Who would Jesus insult in order to make himself look strong?
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This is the original article( 2012) by Dr. James Emery White.
[/url]
Quote:[url=http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/dr-james-emery-white/are-christians-in-america-under-attack.html]http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/dr-james-emery-white/are-christians-in-america-under-attack.html
Are Christians in America Under Attack?
… "The developing fear is that government will make people choose between obeying the law and following their faith. Of course, the real flash point is the one between religious liberty and LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) rights. For example:
*Catholic Charities in Illinois shut down its adoption services rather than place children with same-sex couples (as the state required).
*A Christian counselor was penalized for refusing to advise gay couples.
*A court clerk in New York was told to issue same-sex marriage licenses, despite religious reservations.
*A wedding photographer was sued for refusing to shoot a same-sex wedding.
In each case, the Christian(s) involved were not attempting to impose their religious views on others. They simply didn’t want to be forced to participate or offer tacit support for something they felt was in violation of their religious conscience.”…
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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(05-21-2016, 12:32 AM)Cynic Hero Wrote: We need actual reform, Trump is our best hope for that since the DNC is determined to steal the primary from Sanders.
If Sanders is defeated, then Hillary is our best chance for reform.
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(05-22-2016, 05:02 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-20-2016, 09:50 PM)radind Wrote: (05-20-2016, 09:17 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: (05-20-2016, 02:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: (05-20-2016, 01:54 PM)radind Wrote: In my opinion the majority in both parties is now Secular , not Christian. There was a time in history when Christians were the majority , but that time is past.
Cruz tried to make a case for some version of Christianity, but the GOP did not want that this round. I am glad that Cruz is out.
The GOP insider establishment is only concerned about their personal power and is rightfully afraid of Trump.
You have that right.
The GOP Establishment has never shown a willingness to sacrifice elite indulgence on behalf of Fundamentalist Christianity. It has made promises and blamed Democrats for the failure to implement the promises of school prayer, creationism, an abortion ban, and the outlawing of homosexuality.
School Prayer is already legal. Just because the Teaching Staff and Administration cannot initiate prayer there is no prohibitions on students initiating prayer. We actually do have Muslims where I live yes they do their prayers when required to by their religion without leaving school. Trust me kids do pray on test days.
Creationism is stupid, the very fact that on the human body the play area is right next to the sewage treatment facility only demonstrates that if there was a designer they weren't that intelligent. Never mind the fact that FACT of evolution is the very basis of all modern biology.
Banning abortion would only serve to drive the practice underground. This is potentially dangerous as you'll have people trying to solve that problem with coat hangers or worse having people taking dangerous concoctions of herbal remedies probably without the assistance of an experienced herbalist. Drinking a tincture of penny-royal will make a woman miscarry but taking too much of it will cause her to bleed to death when she does. Abortion is a necessary evil and the Christians are either going to have to learn to tolerate it or perhaps we could give them a state, fence it off and let them fend for themselves.
Outlawing homosexuality would only result in a law that is flagrantly broken and unenforceable. The US just got rid of its sodomy laws, none of them was really enforceable, that being said most people don't think the state has a role in what two consenting adults do in their bedroom. Much like most people don't think the state has a role in a woman's vagina.
(05-20-2016, 02:48 PM)Mikebert Wrote: Kinser, it is foolish for you to make the case for Trump here. It was not that long ago when you were saying a Trump presidency would be so bad it would trigger the revolution. Now you are saying it would be a good thing.
Whether or not Trump will be bad for the country exists independently of your opinion. It does not change just because you change your mind.
Because I've changed my mind I can say that it would be a good thing. Furthermore, those statements were based on wishful thinking that the material conditions for a revolution were there--they are not and never were there. Also the material basis for Marxism-Leninism is ebbing away. One either changes with the times or gets stuck in the past (like many of the Boomers here who still seem to be stuck in the 1990s).
Trump may be bad for the country, but Hillary is infinitely worse: We know her, she's been in DC since 1992 at least. She has all the worst impulses of the Establishment GOP and all of the worst impulses of the Establishment Dems. The worst people have managed to say about Trump with a shred of evidence is he sometimes says mean things on the internet. I'll take my chances with him.
I recommend reading the article I quoted in the first post of page 4 of this thread.
None of this changes my assessment that the country is now primarily a secular society. Christians will feel increasing pressure to adapt or go underground.
I don't see Trump as religious at all, but I don't expect him to attack Christianity.
If Clinton is elected, I would expect increasing pressure against Christian values.
Hillary says love trumps hate, and that what we need in this country is more love and kindness. It is Hillary who stands for Christian values. Trump trashes them in his every statement and behavior. That's attacking Christianity far more than any slogan that he or any Republican religious right figure might utter. Who would Jesus insult in order to make himself look strong?
We have a different impression of Clinton. In my opinion both Obama and Clinton are in the secular camp and both are politicians( who say lots of things that don't believe). I think that Trump is basically areligious .
The pressure for Christians to conform to majority secular dogma is coming from the secular camp. Trump is not a good man, it is just that I see the real threat to Christian values coming from the secular majority. It is understandable that those in the secular camp don't see any threat. They agree with the Obama/Clinton agenda.
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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(05-22-2016, 05:13 PM)radind Wrote: (05-22-2016, 05:02 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-20-2016, 09:50 PM)radind Wrote: (05-20-2016, 09:17 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: (05-20-2016, 02:22 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: You have that right.
The GOP Establishment has never shown a willingness to sacrifice elite indulgence on behalf of Fundamentalist Christianity. It has made promises and blamed Democrats for the failure to implement the promises of school prayer, creationism, an abortion ban, and the outlawing of homosexuality.
School Prayer is already legal. Just because the Teaching Staff and Administration cannot initiate prayer there is no prohibitions on students initiating prayer. We actually do have Muslims where I live yes they do their prayers when required to by their religion without leaving school. Trust me kids do pray on test days.
Creationism is stupid, the very fact that on the human body the play area is right next to the sewage treatment facility only demonstrates that if there was a designer they weren't that intelligent. Never mind the fact that FACT of evolution is the very basis of all modern biology.
Banning abortion would only serve to drive the practice underground. This is potentially dangerous as you'll have people trying to solve that problem with coat hangers or worse having people taking dangerous concoctions of herbal remedies probably without the assistance of an experienced herbalist. Drinking a tincture of penny-royal will make a woman miscarry but taking too much of it will cause her to bleed to death when she does. Abortion is a necessary evil and the Christians are either going to have to learn to tolerate it or perhaps we could give them a state, fence it off and let them fend for themselves.
Outlawing homosexuality would only result in a law that is flagrantly broken and unenforceable. The US just got rid of its sodomy laws, none of them was really enforceable, that being said most people don't think the state has a role in what two consenting adults do in their bedroom. Much like most people don't think the state has a role in a woman's vagina.
(05-20-2016, 02:48 PM)Mikebert Wrote: Kinser, it is foolish for you to make the case for Trump here. It was not that long ago when you were saying a Trump presidency would be so bad it would trigger the revolution. Now you are saying it would be a good thing.
Whether or not Trump will be bad for the country exists independently of your opinion. It does not change just because you change your mind.
Because I've changed my mind I can say that it would be a good thing. Furthermore, those statements were based on wishful thinking that the material conditions for a revolution were there--they are not and never were there. Also the material basis for Marxism-Leninism is ebbing away. One either changes with the times or gets stuck in the past (like many of the Boomers here who still seem to be stuck in the 1990s).
Trump may be bad for the country, but Hillary is infinitely worse: We know her, she's been in DC since 1992 at least. She has all the worst impulses of the Establishment GOP and all of the worst impulses of the Establishment Dems. The worst people have managed to say about Trump with a shred of evidence is he sometimes says mean things on the internet. I'll take my chances with him.
I recommend reading the article I quoted in the first post of page 4 of this thread.
None of this changes my assessment that the country is now primarily a secular society. Christians will feel increasing pressure to adapt or go underground.
I don't see Trump as religious at all, but I don't expect him to attack Christianity.
If Clinton is elected, I would expect increasing pressure against Christian values.
Hillary says love trumps hate, and that what we need in this country is more love and kindness. It is Hillary who stands for Christian values. Trump trashes them in his every statement and behavior. That's attacking Christianity far more than any slogan that he or any Republican religious right figure might utter. Who would Jesus insult in order to make himself look strong?
We have a different impression of Clinton. In my opinion both Obama and Clinton are in the secular camp and both are politicians( who say lots of things that don't believe). I think that Trump is basically areligious .
The pressure for Christians to conform to majority secular dogma is coming from the secular camp. Trump is not a good man, it is just that I see the real threat to Christian values coming from the secular majority. It is understandable that those in the secular camp don't see any threat. They agree with the Obama/Clinton agenda.
I look at the quote in your signature, and I recall Hillary's words about love and kindness and love trumps hate, and it looks to me that it's Hillary that upholds Christian values. Anything else it seems is irrelevant. Forcing people to conform to religious authority has nothing to do with Christian values. It's the way we treat people that has to do with Christian values. Christian values are about love and kindness, the things Jesus taught; not about obedience to church authority or using issues like abortion and gay rights to divide people.
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I have no problem with organized prayer in religious schools, and noe with voluntary and unprompted prayer by students. If some kid wants to say mealtime grace or pray before the spelling test, then that is fine with me. The problem comes when some official or even a classroom teacher organizes prayer. There's just too much mischief possible. A prayer might be perfectly innocuous to a Jewish kid until someone says "In Jesus' Name we pray", after which the entire prayer becomes an affront.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(05-22-2016, 05:03 PM)radind Wrote: This is the original article( 2012) by Dr. James Emery White.
[/url]
Quote:[url=http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/dr-james-emery-white/are-christians-in-america-under-attack.html]http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/dr-james-emery-white/are-christians-in-america-under-attack.html
Are Christians in America Under Attack?
… "The developing fear is that government will make people choose between obeying the law and following their faith. Of course, the real flash point is the one between religious liberty and LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) rights. For example:
*Catholic Charities in Illinois shut down its adoption services rather than place children with same-sex couples (as the state required).
*A Christian counselor was penalized for refusing to advise gay couples.
*A court clerk in New York was told to issue same-sex marriage licenses, despite religious reservations.
*A wedding photographer was sued for refusing to shoot a same-sex wedding.
In each case, the Christian(s) involved were not attempting to impose their religious views on others. They simply didn’t want to be forced to participate or offer tacit support for something they felt was in violation of their religious conscience.”…
This is what Republicans like Ted Cruz use to deceive people that they are protecting "religious liberty." This is not religious liberty; it is permission to discriminate. It is permission to do to gays what is no longer permitted to do to black people.
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(05-22-2016, 05:34 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-22-2016, 05:13 PM)radind Wrote: (05-22-2016, 05:02 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-20-2016, 09:50 PM)radind Wrote: (05-20-2016, 09:17 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: School Prayer is already legal. Just because the Teaching Staff and Administration cannot initiate prayer there is no prohibitions on students initiating prayer. We actually do have Muslims where I live yes they do their prayers when required to by their religion without leaving school. Trust me kids do pray on test days.
Creationism is stupid, the very fact that on the human body the play area is right next to the sewage treatment facility only demonstrates that if there was a designer they weren't that intelligent. Never mind the fact that FACT of evolution is the very basis of all modern biology.
Banning abortion would only serve to drive the practice underground. This is potentially dangerous as you'll have people trying to solve that problem with coat hangers or worse having people taking dangerous concoctions of herbal remedies probably without the assistance of an experienced herbalist. Drinking a tincture of penny-royal will make a woman miscarry but taking too much of it will cause her to bleed to death when she does. Abortion is a necessary evil and the Christians are either going to have to learn to tolerate it or perhaps we could give them a state, fence it off and let them fend for themselves.
Outlawing homosexuality would only result in a law that is flagrantly broken and unenforceable. The US just got rid of its sodomy laws, none of them was really enforceable, that being said most people don't think the state has a role in what two consenting adults do in their bedroom. Much like most people don't think the state has a role in a woman's vagina.
Because I've changed my mind I can say that it would be a good thing. Furthermore, those statements were based on wishful thinking that the material conditions for a revolution were there--they are not and never were there. Also the material basis for Marxism-Leninism is ebbing away. One either changes with the times or gets stuck in the past (like many of the Boomers here who still seem to be stuck in the 1990s).
Trump may be bad for the country, but Hillary is infinitely worse: We know her, she's been in DC since 1992 at least. She has all the worst impulses of the Establishment GOP and all of the worst impulses of the Establishment Dems. The worst people have managed to say about Trump with a shred of evidence is he sometimes says mean things on the internet. I'll take my chances with him.
I recommend reading the article I quoted in the first post of page 4 of this thread.
None of this changes my assessment that the country is now primarily a secular society. Christians will feel increasing pressure to adapt or go underground.
I don't see Trump as religious at all, but I don't expect him to attack Christianity.
If Clinton is elected, I would expect increasing pressure against Christian values.
Hillary says love trumps hate, and that what we need in this country is more love and kindness. It is Hillary who stands for Christian values. Trump trashes them in his every statement and behavior. That's attacking Christianity far more than any slogan that he or any Republican religious right figure might utter. Who would Jesus insult in order to make himself look strong?
We have a different impression of Clinton. In my opinion both Obama and Clinton are in the secular camp and both are politicians( who say lots of things that don't believe). I think that Trump is basically areligious .
The pressure for Christians to conform to majority secular dogma is coming from the secular camp. Trump is not a good man, it is just that I see the real threat to Christian values coming from the secular majority. It is understandable that those in the secular camp don't see any threat. They agree with the Obama/Clinton agenda.
I look at the quote in your signature, and I recall Hillary's words about love and kindness and love trumps hate, and it looks to me that it's Hillary that upholds Christian values. Anything else it seems is irrelevant. Forcing people to conform to religious authority has nothing to do with Christian values. It's the way we treat people that has to do with Christian values. Christian values are about love and kindness, the things Jesus taught; not about obedience to church authority or using issues like abortion and gay rights to divide people.
I don't believe Clinton's nice words. I can't see Christians supporting the killing of unborn babies. People's action are what is relevant , so I agree the issue is how we treat each other.
The intent of my objection to abortion is not to divide people, but I do think that abortion is wrong and un-Christian.
Obedience to church authority has no significance to me. I think that many of the problems with 'Christianity' comes from the large religious organizations where bureaucracies and political power abound. I do not belong to such religious organizations. In my view each one is responsible for his own views ( secular or religious).
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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(05-22-2016, 05:39 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-22-2016, 05:03 PM)radind Wrote: This is the original article( 2012) by Dr. James Emery White.
[/url]
Quote:[url=http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/dr-james-emery-white/are-christians-in-america-under-attack.html]http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/dr-james-emery-white/are-christians-in-america-under-attack.html
Are Christians in America Under Attack?
… "The developing fear is that government will make people choose between obeying the law and following their faith. Of course, the real flash point is the one between religious liberty and LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) rights. For example:
*Catholic Charities in Illinois shut down its adoption services rather than place children with same-sex couples (as the state required).
*A Christian counselor was penalized for refusing to advise gay couples.
*A court clerk in New York was told to issue same-sex marriage licenses, despite religious reservations.
*A wedding photographer was sued for refusing to shoot a same-sex wedding.
In each case, the Christian(s) involved were not attempting to impose their religious views on others. They simply didn’t want to be forced to participate or offer tacit support for something they felt was in violation of their religious conscience.”…
This is what Republicans like Ted Cruz use to deceive people that they are protecting "religious liberty." This is not religious liberty; it is permission to discriminate. It is permission to do to gays what is no longer permitted to do to black people.
I don't like Cruz either. The problem for me is that the secular camp seems to leave no room for religious liberty. It comes across as having the same effect as the clash of two religious dogmas. In the US , the secular camp now dominates and can dictate their dogma. This is what I see increasing and I don't know what limits the secular camp will consider.
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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(05-22-2016, 06:10 PM)radind Wrote: (05-22-2016, 05:39 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-22-2016, 05:03 PM)radind Wrote: This is the original article( 2012) by Dr. James Emery White.
[/url]
Quote:[url=http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/dr-james-emery-white/are-christians-in-america-under-attack.html]http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/dr-james-emery-white/are-christians-in-america-under-attack.html
Are Christians in America Under Attack?
… "The developing fear is that government will make people choose between obeying the law and following their faith. Of course, the real flash point is the one between religious liberty and LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) rights. For example:
*Catholic Charities in Illinois shut down its adoption services rather than place children with same-sex couples (as the state required).
*A Christian counselor was penalized for refusing to advise gay couples.
*A court clerk in New York was told to issue same-sex marriage licenses, despite religious reservations.
*A wedding photographer was sued for refusing to shoot a same-sex wedding.
In each case, the Christian(s) involved were not attempting to impose their religious views on others. They simply didn’t want to be forced to participate or offer tacit support for something they felt was in violation of their religious conscience.”…
This is what Republicans like Ted Cruz use to deceive people that they are protecting "religious liberty." This is not religious liberty; it is permission to discriminate. It is permission to do to gays what is no longer permitted to do to black people.
I don't like Cruz either. The problem for me is that the secular camp seems to leave no room for religious liberty. It comes across as having the same effect as the clash of two religious dogmas. In the US , the secular camp now dominates and can dictate their dogma. This is what I see increasing and I don't know what limits the secular camp will consider.
Although I don't think some in the secular camp necessarily have much awareness about real spirituality and its value, I think they want religious liberty; they don't want the state to make " law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
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(05-22-2016, 04:52 PM)radind Wrote: (05-22-2016, 03:10 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Uh...I have news for you. Christians in Syria are being killed. I don't think anyone in the us is killing Christians.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7121/i...christians
In Egypt Coptic Christians are routinely discriminated against, almost on par with Blacks in the Jim Crow days.
https://www.mnnonline.org/news/egypt-pra...hristians/
In Nigeria Boko Haram regularly murders Christians or forces them to convert to Islam.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014...ution.html
Where exactly in secular America are Christians being murdered or discriminated against? By whom are they being discriminated against? Inquiring minds want to know. I will require citation too. I don't care about "feels".
I think you misread the quote.
The point is that there is " growing pressure to marginalize Christianity".
Quote:... " He rightfully declares, however, that Christians in America are not persecuted nearly to the degree that they are in such places as "Nigeria, Iran, Pakistan, Egypt or Syria."...
First point. America is not a Christian nation, never was, never will be. This fact goes back to the very founding. Any argument that this is not true is based on a myth. The truth can be found in reading the very letters of the Founders or better yet the Treaty of Tripoli of 1795
Treaty of Tripoli of 1795 Wrote:Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
As such there is no state marginalization of any religion. The simple fact of the matter is that Christianity is losing popularity as a religion. I have news for you religions come and go. Typically they seem to have about a run of 2000 years on average before they die. Christianity has had a good run but like Roman Paganism its time for something new.
Point Two. Perhaps I did misread the quote. That being said, the Christian preoccupation with being persecuted in the US is absurd. While some incredibly small people are bothered by others wishing them a Merry Christ-mas they are people who walk around finding things to be offended by.
In fact I have a joke for you. An agnostic atheist, an Episcopalian, a New Ager and Norse Pagan all live in a house together....they all love each other and nothing of any note ever involves their religious convictions.
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(05-22-2016, 05:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: If Sanders is defeated, then Hillary is our best chance for reform.
Yes because the easiest way to get reform is to elect the person who says she wants to continue with the status quo.
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(05-22-2016, 05:57 PM)radind Wrote: (05-22-2016, 05:34 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-22-2016, 05:13 PM)radind Wrote: (05-22-2016, 05:02 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-20-2016, 09:50 PM)radind Wrote: None of this changes my assessment that the country is now primarily a secular society. Christians will feel increasing pressure to adapt or go underground.
I don't see Trump as religious at all, but I don't expect him to attack Christianity.
If Clinton is elected, I would expect increasing pressure against Christian values.
Hillary says love trumps hate, and that what we need in this country is more love and kindness. It is Hillary who stands for Christian values. Trump trashes them in his every statement and behavior. That's attacking Christianity far more than any slogan that he or any Republican religious right figure might utter. Who would Jesus insult in order to make himself look strong?
We have a different impression of Clinton. In my opinion both Obama and Clinton are in the secular camp and both are politicians( who say lots of things that don't believe). I think that Trump is basically areligious .
The pressure for Christians to conform to majority secular dogma is coming from the secular camp. Trump is not a good man, it is just that I see the real threat to Christian values coming from the secular majority. It is understandable that those in the secular camp don't see any threat. They agree with the Obama/Clinton agenda.
I look at the quote in your signature, and I recall Hillary's words about love and kindness and love trumps hate, and it looks to me that it's Hillary that upholds Christian values. Anything else it seems is irrelevant. Forcing people to conform to religious authority has nothing to do with Christian values. It's the way we treat people that has to do with Christian values. Christian values are about love and kindness, the things Jesus taught; not about obedience to church authority or using issues like abortion and gay rights to divide people.
I don't believe Clinton's nice words. I can't see Christians supporting the killing of unborn babies. People's action are what is relevant , so I agree the issue is how we treat each other.
The intent of my objection to abortion is not to divide people, but I do think that abortion is wrong and un-Christian.
Obedience to church authority has no significance to me. I think that many of the problems with 'Christianity' comes from the large religious organizations where bureaucracies and political power abound. I do not belong to such religious organizations. In my view each one is responsible for his own views ( secular or religious).
But don't you think the opposition to abortion is orchestrated by the Catholic and fundamentalist Christian Church authorities?
Don't you think that a feminist candidate like Hillary can support a woman's right to choose, and still be genuinely interested in love and kindness? Why would you judge a person un-Christian if they disagree with you on abortion? They might be "good Christians" in many other ways.
I understand the objection to abortion, and I think different people in the "secular camp" would have different opinions on abortion. I think this issue should be dealt with through compromise. Make the abortion pill available and then limit abortions to the first trimester. Make adoption more available. I don't think Americans should make abortion the basis for political culture wars.
There are far more important issues about which compromise cannot be made so easily, especially our oligarchical and corrupt political and economic system, climate change and pollution, police behavior and our biased and misguided justice system, and foreign policy.
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The GOP Has Been HIJACKED!
