America is a sick society

[Odin]

(12-19-2016, 10:51 AM)tg63 Wrote:

(12-17-2016, 10:28 AM)Odin Wrote: Technology is advancing too quickly for people to culturally adapt. A big reason for the angst in rural America and in the Rust Belt is people simply being unable to comprehend automation and it's ultimate end-game. Americans are raised to believe that one must earn one's money through hard work, and that ever since WW2 we have been raised to expect a good-paying job to be our birthright, even for those people who are not capable of higher education.

At the same time, a lot of these people are stuck where they are, their wealth is tied up in their houses and good luck trying to sell a house in a small rust belt town, nobody want to move to those places, which makes all the talking points about how they should just move downright tone-deaf and just increases the resentment against the "educated elites".

Then mix this together with people having chronic pain as a result of a lifetime of blue collar work, which then leads these people to end up addicted to opioid painkillers.

Good post.  Moving for these folks would mean essentially walking away with nothing.  It certainly highlights the distance between those folks & the ones buying Americano mistos every morning at the starbucks drivethru.

My mother grew up on a small-medium sized farm in central Canada with 5 siblings.  Eventually all the kids went to the city for work.  When their dad could no longer run the farm he moved to the city with one of his kids.  They didn't sell the farm as it was virtually worthless. They just stopped paying taxes & the municipality took it over.  They bulldozed the small house & it sits as vacant land today.  I recently looked at it on google maps, it's just random bushlands.

Parts of downtown Detroit are similar now.  I suspect in another few decades there will be wide swathes of neighborhoods across the midwest that look similar.

Adaptation will have winners & losers.  But everyone gets to vote.

The little town I grew up in is lucky, it's close enough to Fargo that a few people will move here and drive the 45 miles to Fargo because the cost of housing is so cheap, so people are able to sell their houses at a decent price.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-17-2016, 10:28 AM)Odin Wrote: Technology is advancing too quickly for people to culturally adapt. A big reason for the angst in rural America and in the Rust Belt is people simply being unable to comprehend automation and it's ultimate end-game. Americans are raised to believe that one must earn one's money through hard work, and that ever since WW2 we have been raised to expect a good-paying job to be our birthright, even for those people who are not capable of higher education.

At the same time, a lot of these people are stuck where they are, their wealth is tied up in their houses and good luck trying to sell a house in a small rust belt town, nobody want to move to those places, which makes all the talking points about how they should just move downright tone-deaf and just increases the resentment against the "educated elites".

Then mix this together with people having chronic pain as a result of a lifetime of blue collar work, which then leads these people to end up addicted to opioid painkillers.

This is exaggerated by various parts of the country having traditions of and workforces trained for specific industries.  The new companies and jobs tend to be high tech.  If one is booting up a high tech start up, it would be silly not to locate in Silicon Valley, Route 128 or similar enclaves.  That's where you find workers with the skills you need to make it.  You can find such workers even though the cost of living would be a downer.

The Rust Belt towns are often built around one factory.  When that factory goes away, you get a slow death.  Wishful thinking suggests all one needs is some sort of replacement.  Not easy.

[Eric the Green]

(12-20-2016, 11:51 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-17-2016, 10:28 AM)Odin Wrote: Technology is advancing too quickly for people to culturally adapt. A big reason for the angst in rural America and in the Rust Belt is people simply being unable to comprehend automation and it's ultimate end-game. Americans are raised to believe that one must earn one's money through hard work, and that ever since WW2 we have been raised to expect a good-paying job to be our birthright, even for those people who are not capable of higher education.

At the same time, a lot of these people are stuck where they are, their wealth is tied up in their houses and good luck trying to sell a house in a small rust belt town, nobody want to move to those places, which makes all the talking points about how they should just move downright tone-deaf and just increases the resentment against the "educated elites".

Then mix this together with people having chronic pain as a result of a lifetime of blue collar work, which then leads these people to end up addicted to opioid painkillers.

This is exaggerated by various parts of the country having traditions of and workforces trained for specific industries.  The new companies and jobs tend to be high tech.  If one is booting up a high tech start up, it would be silly not to locate in Silicon Valley, Route 128 or similar enclaves.  That's where you find workers with the skills you need to make it.  You can find such workers even though the cost of living would be a downer.

The Rust Belt towns are often built around one factory.  When that factory goes away, you get a slow death.  Wishful thinking suggests all one needs is some sort of replacement.  Not easy.

I agree.

I think there is no hope for these people unless they start voting Democratic. Then they can get government help to retrain, re-educate and/or re-locate; if not for themselves, then for their children who can support them. And failing that, guaranteed income from taxes on the robot and machine owners.

They voted, some of them, for better trade deals. If that happens, it might help in some cases. If they voted for immigration restriction, there's no hope for them.

The same applies, of course, to coal country nearby; part of the same Trump-belt.

[Bob Butler 54]

CNN posted an article reviewing The year in harassment:  2016 sunk lower than rock bottom.  It opens...

Quote:2016 will be remembered as the year that Donald Trump, a reality TV star and real estate mogul with zero political experience, was elected president. But it will also be remembered as a year of heightened, vicious online harassment.

No one was safe from the vitriol. Black celebrities, Jewish journalists, white college students. The trolls latched on to the most minute of things and ran with them -- spewing racist rants and death threats with abandon.

Seems like an article worthy of inclusion in the Sick Society thread.

CNN's opening lines are true enough.  Online and offline.  Red and Blue.  The Obamas gave us years of tolerance and acceptance.  The trend might well have peaked with one particular week and one particular cartoon.

I have often said that Reagan had some ideas that were right for his time, and have since been taken way beyond the point of reason.  If the flags cartoon was right for its time, perhaps transgender bathrooms took things way beyond the point of reason.  When one's values are on a roll, it is tempting to roll with them, to push while the pushing is good.  Tempting, perhaps, but not necessarily wise.

Excessive aggressive tolerance has resulted in a response of excessive hate.

(Aggressive tolerance???)

I don't know how long the current mood of hate will naturally sustain itself.  I don't know if Trump and/or his more deplorable followers will celebrate their victories by taking them way beyond the point of reason.  I'll just repeat my warning against linear thinking, the notion that the trend of the moment will result in inevitable triumph.  In the long term, the founding American ideal of equality has been ever so slowly suppressing strong elements of prejudice and privilege that are also very much part of our culture.  I'd like to think nothing basic has changed to alter this long term trend.

But there is no doubt that this is a moment of vitriol.

[Eric the Green]

I dissent that there was ever a time when Reagan's nonsense made any sense. There were already some cutbacks in the 1970s in excessive welfare spending and job programs. There was never any need for Reagan's policies. It was just a tempting ideology and a mood that the charming actor/demagogue could appeal to. Deceptive slogans of freedom can often work in a (supposedly) democratic republic.

Similarly, I dissent that today there has been excessive tolerance producing hate. It is just a button for a demagogue to push that has never gone away. Anyone who thinks transgender bathrooms or political correctness are more important issues than inequality and climate change, is just hooked by the demagogue.

But I agree that cycles turn and pendulums swing, and the arc of history is long but it bends toward justice.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-20-2016, 01:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 11:51 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-17-2016, 10:28 AM)Odin Wrote: Technology is advancing too quickly for people to culturally adapt. A big reason for the angst in rural America and in the Rust Belt is people simply being unable to comprehend automation and it's ultimate end-game. Americans are raised to believe that one must earn one's money through hard work, and that ever since WW2 we have been raised to expect a good-paying job to be our birthright, even for those people who are not capable of higher education.

At the same time, a lot of these people are stuck where they are, their wealth is tied up in their houses and good luck trying to sell a house in a small rust belt town, nobody want to move to those places, which makes all the talking points about how they should just move downright tone-deaf and just increases the resentment against the "educated elites".

Then mix this together with people having chronic pain as a result of a lifetime of blue collar work, which then leads these people to end up addicted to opioid painkillers.

This is exaggerated by various parts of the country having traditions of and workforces trained for specific industries.  The new companies and jobs tend to be high tech.  If one is booting up a high tech start up, it would be silly not to locate in Silicon Valley, Route 128 or similar enclaves.  That's where you find workers with the skills you need to make it.  You can find such workers even though the cost of living would be a downer.

The Rust Belt towns are often built around one factory.  When that factory goes away, you get a slow death.  Wishful thinking suggests all one needs is some sort of replacement.  Not easy.

I agree.

I think there is no hope for these people unless they start voting Democratic. Then they can get government help to retrain, re-educate and/or re-locate; if not for themselves, then for their children who can support them. And failing that, guaranteed income from taxes on the robot and machine owners.

They voted, some of them, for better trade deals. If that happens, it might help in some cases. If they voted for immigration restriction, there's no hope for them.

The same applies, of course, to coal country nearby; part of the same Trump-belt.

A couple of problems.  If one votes Democratic, this does not change the basic nature of the Rust Belt work force and economy.  While I can sympathize with a lot of the blue initiatives as delaying tactics and bandaids, I don't know of any programs that will restart the abandoned Rust Belt factories.  If no new companies are brought in that provide meaningful goods and services to those outside the community, the community dwindles.  A town cannot thrive with people selling groceries, cars, haircuts and dancing lessons to one another.  The town has to produce something that outsiders are willing to pay for, something that brings money into the local economy.

I was also discouraged by Hillbilly Eulogy.  The Rust Belt and Coal Country Scotts Irish values make for poor workers, whether one is properly trained with desired skill sets or not.  The culture tends to blame anyone but one's self.  It seems better to vote for an autocrat and empty promises than take action on one's own behalf.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-20-2016, 02:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I dissent that there was ever a time when Reagan's nonsense made any sense. There were already some cutbacks in the 1970s in excessive welfare spending and job programs. There was never any need for Reagan's policies. It was just a tempting ideology and a mood that the charming actor/demagogue could appeal to. Deceptive slogans of freedom can often work in a (supposedly) democratic republic.

Similarly, I dissent that today there has been excessive tolerance producing hate. It is just a button for a demagogue to push that has never gone away. Anyone who thinks transgender bathrooms or political correctness are more important issues than inequality and climate change, is just hooked by the demagogue.

But I agree that cycles turn and pendulums swing, and the arc of history is long but it bends toward justice.

I am not expecting you to acknowledge any merit in ideas that conflict with your own.  I count you as an extreme partisan while not saying there is a lack of red extreme partisans equally unable to perceive the merits of blue values and ideas.  I fully expect extreme partisans of any ilk to paint the opposition as evil, stupid, insane, brainwashed, following a demagogue or otherwise mentally incompetent.  I perceive it as entirely possible, indeed, as common place, for people from different environments with different upbringings to become totally committed to one perspective.  An awful lot of people have no interest in learning or growing.  They are entirely and aggressively satisfied with the realities they have locked themselves into.

I understand that you are entirely sincere in your above paragraphs.  I just suggest  you try to comprehend that the Red extreme partisans are equally sincere in their belief of your own ability to comprehend their common sense.

[tg63]

(12-20-2016, 01:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: ...
I think there is no hope for these people unless they start voting Democratic. Then they can get government help to retrain, re-educate and/or re-locate; if not for themselves, then for their children who can support them. And failing that, guaranteed income from taxes on the robot and machine owners.

Nice in theory but this completely ignores human nature.  When my grandfather had to give up the farm (he wasn't that old, he was around 60), he didn't want to be retrained or re-educated.  His absolute last resort - and he hated doing it - was to relocate to his daughter's family home in the city. His choice was that if he had to be dependant on anyone, it would be his family.

There will be exceptions, but as a rule the young people will move away for work, while the middle aged & older folks will stay put, even if it means subsistence living.

[Eric the Green]

(12-20-2016, 02:42 PM)tg63 Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 01:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: ...
I think there is no hope for these people unless they start voting Democratic. Then they can get government help to retrain, re-educate and/or re-locate; if not for themselves, then for their children who can support them. And failing that, guaranteed income from taxes on the robot and machine owners.

Nice in theory but this completely ignores human nature.  When my grandfather had to give up the farm (he wasn't that old, he was around 60), he didn't want to be retrained or re-educated.  His absolute last resort - and he hated doing it - was to relocate to his daughter's family home in the city. His choice was that if he had to be dependent on anyone, it would be his family.

There will be exceptions, but as a rule the young people will move away for work, while the middle aged & older folks will stay put, even if it means subsistence living.

That's why I said that it may be the children and younger folks who can retrain and move, and help and support some of the older members of their family who can't or don't want to. Maybe they can do what young Mexican immigrants do here, and instead of immigrants sending back money from their paychecks to family in Mexico, they will be white state immigrants sending it back to family in Ohio or Wisconsin or West Virginia and Kentucky.

And if the older folks stay, their continued health and existence may also depend on them switching back to voting Democratic, so that the government can help provide for their needs, instead of hanging on to the false ideals of proud self-reliance and putting down others that the Republicans feed them.

[Eric the Green]

(12-20-2016, 02:26 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 02:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I dissent that there was ever a time when Reagan's nonsense made any sense. There were already some cutbacks in the 1970s in excessive welfare spending and job programs. There was never any need for Reagan's policies. It was just a tempting ideology and a mood that the charming actor/demagogue could appeal to. Deceptive slogans of freedom can often work in a (supposedly) democratic republic.

Similarly, I dissent that today there has been excessive tolerance producing hate. It is just a button for a demagogue to push that has never gone away. Anyone who thinks transgender bathrooms or political correctness are more important issues than inequality and climate change, is just hooked by the demagogue.

But I agree that cycles turn and pendulums swing, and the arc of history is long but it bends toward justice.

I am not expecting you to acknowledge any merit in ideas that conflict with your own.  I count you as an extreme partisan while not saying there is a lack of red extreme partisans equally unable to perceive the merits of blue values and ideas.  I fully expect extreme partisans of any ilk to paint the opposition as evil, stupid, insane, brainwashed, following a demagogue or otherwise mentally incompetent.  I perceive it as entirely possible, indeed, as common place, for people from different environments with different upbringings to become totally committed to one perspective.  An awful lot of people have no interest in learning or growing.  They are entirely and aggressively satisfied with the realities they have locked themselves into.

I understand that you are entirely sincere in your above paragraphs.  I just suggest  you try to comprehend that the Red extreme partisans are equally sincere in their belief of your own ability to comprehend their common sense.

It doesn't matter what you expect about me. It is simply a matter of the truth. No, there was never any need for Reagan, although you may defer to what you think was the trend, and in the hope of convincing right-wing partisans of your open-mindedness, and thereby hope to appeal to them. I don't concede that ground in that hope, that's all. I just prefer to stick to the truth, and hope to get the message out that Reagan was simply peddling a false and harmful set of slogans that people need to realize were never true. I do not concede that each side is as deceived as the other, but I rather feel and hope that all people of whatever persuasion are capable of seeing past deception. Blue partisans are not inherently more intelligent or virtuous than red partisans; it is a matter of social and ideological conditioning.

Taking a stand is more likely to inspire confidence, and convince some to join our side, than coddling the deceptions and wavering in our positions and proposals. Bush and Trump and the like get considerable admiration for their ability to "take a stand," and also tend to get the other side to back down because the other side wavers and defers to the stronger and more confident side.

I do concede that there are grains of truth in the red side. Self-reliance is a virtue, and religion has its place, for example. It is a matter of relative degrees of truth and reality, and a condition that the progressive side is relatively closer to truth, and less dogmatic too. As others have pointed out to you, it is foolish to pretend that you understand the ways of the other side in the way that they would want. If you are a blue partisan, as others consider you to be, then it is better to be upfront and consistent about it.

[David Horn]

(12-20-2016, 11:51 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: This is exaggerated by various parts of the country having traditions of and workforces trained for specific industries.  The new companies and jobs tend to be high tech.  If one is booting up a high tech start up, it would be silly not to locate in Silicon Valley, Route 128 or similar enclaves.  That's where you find workers with the skills you need to make it.  You can find such workers even though the cost of living would be a downer.

The Rust Belt towns are often built around one factory.  When that factory goes away, you get a slow death.  Wishful thinking suggests all one needs is some sort of replacement.  Not easy.

Don't ignore lower tech artisan "industries" like craft beer and eco-tourism.  Neither of those thrives in high tech havens, unless those places also have plenty of good water and outdoor activities.  Every new industry emerges where it does because it can.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-20-2016, 03:05 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 11:51 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: This is exaggerated by various parts of the country having traditions of and workforces trained for specific industries.  The new companies and jobs tend to be high tech.  If one is booting up a high tech start up, it would be silly not to locate in Silicon Valley, Route 128 or similar enclaves.  That's where you find workers with the skills you need to make it.  You can find such workers even though the cost of living would be a downer.

The Rust Belt towns are often built around one factory.  When that factory goes away, you get a slow death.  Wishful thinking suggests all one needs is some sort of replacement.  Not easy.

Don't ignore lower tech artisan "industries" like craft beer and eco-tourism.  Neither of those thrives in high tech havens, unless those places also have plenty of good water and outdoor activities.  Every new industry emerges where it does because it can.

That can't be ignored, but it would take more than one artisan project like that to replace what Goodyear Tire and Rubber used to do for the city of Akron.  Certainly, that sort of thing ought to be encouraged.

[David Horn]

(12-20-2016, 02:12 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: ... I was also discouraged by Hillbilly Eulogy.  The Rust Belt and Coal Country Scotts Irish values make for poor workers, whether one is properly trained with desired skill sets or not.  The culture tends to blame anyone but one's self.  It seems better to vote for an autocrat and empty promises than take action on one's own behalf.

I don't think that's exactly true.  The Scots-Irish work ethic is very strong, but the Calvinist concept that work is inherent to ones value is more than a bit toxic.  When work disappears, the social structure collapses.  That needs to change.  No self respecting oligarch feels that way.  If the money comes through zero effort, that's considered high ROI -- great all around!  Some of the working class need to adopt that attitude too.

[David Horn]

(12-20-2016, 03:51 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 03:05 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 11:51 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: This is exaggerated by various parts of the country having traditions of and workforces trained for specific industries.  The new companies and jobs tend to be high tech.  If one is booting up a high tech start up, it would be silly not to locate in Silicon Valley, Route 128 or similar enclaves.  That's where you find workers with the skills you need to make it.  You can find such workers even though the cost of living would be a downer.

The Rust Belt towns are often built around one factory.  When that factory goes away, you get a slow death.  Wishful thinking suggests all one needs is some sort of replacement.  Not easy.

Don't ignore lower tech artisan "industries" like craft beer and eco-tourism.  Neither of those thrives in high tech havens, unless those places also have plenty of good water and outdoor activities.  Every new industry emerges where it does because it can.

That can't be ignored, but it would take more than one artisan project like that to replace what Goodyear Tire and Rubber used to do for the city of Akron.  Certainly, that sort of thing ought to be encouraged.

Our largest area city is small by urban standards (about 180.000 in the metro area), but lost it's main industry with the railroad pulled out.  Now, they make do with an active arts scene, ecotourism, and seven craft breweries.  Two large craft brewers are in the process of adding East Coast capacity too, so it may be a lot more than that in the near future.  The area also has about 12 small wineries.  I have two within 3 miles of me.

By comparison, Asheville NC has about 20 breweries and the winery at Biltmore Estate.    Ii assume there are other wineries as well.  Susan Brombacher would know better than me.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-20-2016, 05:29 PM)David Horn Wrote: Our largest area city is small by urban standards (about 180.000 in the metro area), but lost it's main industry with the railroad pulled out.  Now, they make do with an active arts scene, ecotourism, and seven craft breweries.  Two large craft brewers are in the process of adding East Coast capacity too, so it may be a lot more than that in the near future.  The area also has about 12 small wineries.  I have two within 3 miles of me.

By comparison, Asheville NC has about 20 breweries and the winery at Biltmore Estate.    Ii assume there are other wineries as well.  Susan Brombacher would know better than me.

As the Silicon Valley attracts high tech start ups, it sounds like your area is attracting wineries and breweries.  As it is easy to find programers and technicians in the Silicon Valley, I suspect your area has a lot of people who can make a good drink.

It's good when an area has expertise in one style of goods or services.  Such areas have a leg up on other areas.

Alas, the entire country can't solve their economic problems by producing alcoholic beverages.  We just couldn't drink it all.  

Having half a dozen small companies employing the same number of people as the old Rust Belt factories is fine.

But more growing industries would be a good thing.

[tg63]

(12-21-2016, 12:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [quote pid='15703' dateline='1482272972']
...
Alas, the entire country can't solve their economic problems by producing alcoholic beverages.  We just couldn't drink it all.  
...

[/quote]

perhaps you've just stumbled across the theme of the 4T!

[Anthony '58]

Quote:The little town I grew up in is lucky, it's close enough to Fargo that a few people will move here and drive the 45 miles to Fargo because the cost of housing is so cheap, so people are able to sell their houses at a decent price.

Since (I presume) the town was in Minnesota and it is that close to Fargo, that it is in the district of that abominable DINO Colin Peterson.

[The Wonkette]

(12-20-2016, 05:29 PM)David Horn Wrote: Bob Butler 54

(12-20-2016, 03:05 PM)David Horn Wrote: [quote pid='15654' dateline='1482252670']
Our largest area city is small by urban standards (about 180.000 in the metro area), but lost it's main industry with the railroad pulled out.  Now, they make do with an active arts scene, ecotourism, and seven craft breweries.  Two large craft brewers are in the process of adding East Coast capacity too, so it may be a lot more than that in the near future.  The area also has about 12 small wineries.  I have two within 3 miles of me.

By comparison, Asheville NC has about 20 breweries and the winery at Biltmore Estate.    Ii assume there are other wineries as well.  Susan Brombacher would know better than me.

[/quote]
Lynchburg or Roanoke?

According to Google, there are a number of wineries near Asheville.  There is also quite an arts scene.

https://www.romanticasheville.com/wineri..._tours.htm

[Odin]

(12-21-2016, 11:01 AM)Anthony Wrote:

Quote:The little town I grew up in is lucky, it's close enough to Fargo that a few people will move here and drive the 45 miles to Fargo because the cost of housing is so cheap, so people are able to sell their houses at a decent price.

Since (I presume) the town was in Minnesota and it is that close to Fargo, that it is in the district of that abominable DINO Colin Peterson.

You would be correct.

[TnT]

Yes, we are a sick society.

But then, what should we expect? For the last 65-70 years, we have turned over the development and maintenance of our societal values to commercial television.