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Homelanders: Mid 90s or Mid 00s?
#21
(12-03-2016, 10:38 PM)MillennialJim Wrote:
(12-02-2016, 01:42 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(12-02-2016, 11:19 AM)MillennialJim Wrote:
(11-28-2016, 09:24 AM)tg63 Wrote: Unless I'm mistaken S&H defined the start of a new generation as 3-4 years before the onset of a new turning.  So if we go with 2008 as the start of the 4T as is generally accepted (others posit 2005 or even 2001, but your mileage may vary), that would make the start of the homelander generation as 2004-5.  Seems to fit intuitively for me.

This is my belief as well.  

There were some good indications that the 2003-2005 cohorts were changing in terms of parenting trends and other things we look for in rearing a different generation.  Preceding generations drive reactions to world events, which drives parenting styles, which in turn creates a new generation that differs from the past.  I'm a 1982 cohort.  I have a 2 year old daughter.  No one who looks at how children are raised today can say that the temperament of parenting and current parenting trends are similar to how kids were raised in the 80's and 90's.  IMO a break began to occur in the early 2000's, to more protective styles of parenting consistent with an adaptive generation.

Good to see another millenial posting.  Willing to say where you are from?

While I agree that parenting has gotten overprotective - my kids are 8, 6, and 4 - I'm not sure how sudden it was.  Nor am I certain that the protective trends are definitive in anything other than retrospect; the GIs were the people who fought in WWII and thereafter got automatic respect therefor.  The Silents were the ones who had no war stories of their own to tell.  I think that ultimately, the breakpoint between Millenial and Quiet will similarly be whether they participate in the crisis war this time around.

Thanks - I think life and politics would be much easier if everybody else just let us take over.  My home base is Wisconsin, but I travel cross country a lot.

Just to clarify, I'm not a millenial myself; I was referring to taramarie.  It will be interesting to see any differences and agreements between millenials on opposite sides of the Pacific.

Quote:I agree with you that there was no one moment when parenting trends just changed... I did start noticing it in the 2nd Bush term, though, especially with little kids.  I just can't join the hypothesizing that kids born in the late aughts or early 2010s are still Millennials.  In addition to all of the objective reasoning behind my reaction, it just feels wrong.  The kids of the 2010s ain't us.  I don't especially think the kids of the mid-2000's (10 year olds and such today) are us, either.  

Another marker may be the introduction of the iPhone in 2007.  If you never knew life before the smartphone era, you ain't a millennial.

There are always big differences between the leading edge and the trailing edge of generations.  Trailing GIs never knew a world wiithout automobiles, for example.
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#22
Babies currently being born are core Homies. Just like those born in the mid to late 1930s were core Silents. We probably have 7-10 years to go until we start to see the new generation of Prophets being born.
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#23
(12-04-2016, 06:22 AM)HoldOn Wrote: It should be noted that on sites like Reddit and Facebook, most people there seem to think 9/11 was the "breaking point" from Millennials to Gen Z, not the 2008 Recession/Obama election.

Based on the discussions on Reddit I've seen most people's idea of what "Millennial" means is extremely confused and many people have forgotten that we folks in our early 30s are also Millennials.

About a week ago there was an Reddit post about Millennials watching less sports and there was a discussion in the comments about why people's understanding about the term "Millennial" is so muddy and one poster mentioned that "Millennial" now is running into the same issue the term "Generation X" had in the mid 90s, it has degenerated into a generic buzzword used by clueless middle-aged marketing executives for "teenagers and people in their early 20s".
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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#24
(12-04-2016, 10:06 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(12-03-2016, 10:38 PM)MillennialJim Wrote:
(12-02-2016, 01:42 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(12-02-2016, 11:19 AM)MillennialJim Wrote:
(11-28-2016, 09:24 AM)tg63 Wrote: Unless I'm mistaken S&H defined the start of a new generation as 3-4 years before the onset of a new turning.  So if we go with 2008 as the start of the 4T as is generally accepted (others posit 2005 or even 2001, but your mileage may vary), that would make the start of the homelander generation as 2004-5.  Seems to fit intuitively for me.

This is my belief as well.  

There were some good indications that the 2003-2005 cohorts were changing in terms of parenting trends and other things we look for in rearing a different generation.  Preceding generations drive reactions to world events, which drives parenting styles, which in turn creates a new generation that differs from the past.  I'm a 1982 cohort.  I have a 2 year old daughter.  No one who looks at how children are raised today can say that the temperament of parenting and current parenting trends are similar to how kids were raised in the 80's and 90's.  IMO a break began to occur in the early 2000's, to more protective styles of parenting consistent with an adaptive generation.

Good to see another millenial posting.  Willing to say where you are from?

While I agree that parenting has gotten overprotective - my kids are 8, 6, and 4 - I'm not sure how sudden it was.  Nor am I certain that the protective trends are definitive in anything other than retrospect; the GIs were the people who fought in WWII and thereafter got automatic respect therefor.  The Silents were the ones who had no war stories of their own to tell.  I think that ultimately, the breakpoint between Millenial and Quiet will similarly be whether they participate in the crisis war this time around.

Thanks - I think life and politics would be much easier if everybody else just let us take over.  My home base is Wisconsin, but I travel cross country a lot.

Just to clarify, I'm not a millenial myself; I was referring to taramarie.  It will be interesting to see any differences and agreements between millenials on opposite sides of the Pacific.

Quote:I agree with you that there was no one moment when parenting trends just changed... I did start noticing it in the 2nd Bush term, though, especially with little kids.  I just can't join the hypothesizing that kids born in the late aughts or early 2010s are still Millennials.  In addition to all of the objective reasoning behind my reaction, it just feels wrong.  The kids of the 2010s ain't us.  I don't especially think the kids of the mid-2000's (10 year olds and such today) are us, either.  

Another marker may be the introduction of the iPhone in 2007.  If you never knew life before the smartphone era, you ain't a millennial.

There are always big differences between the leading edge and the trailing edge of generations.  Trailing GIs never knew a world wiithout automobiles, for example.

I feel most of the time I get along with American millennials. I do wish though for them to quit the divisive talk and start behaving in a build up not tear down way. But that would be the only disagreement. But I am an Apollonian civic, not a Dionysian one. So I am not going through the bs they have to culturally over there. So that is why there is that difference.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#25
(12-03-2016, 07:16 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:
(12-01-2016, 01:14 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:
(11-30-2016, 10:09 PM)HoldOn Wrote:
(11-28-2016, 09:24 AM)tg63 Wrote: Unless I'm mistaken S&H defined the start of a new generation as 3-4 years before the onset of a new turning.  So if we go with 2008 as the start of the 4T as is generally accepted (others posit 2005 or even 2001, but your mileage may vary), that would make the start of the homelander generation as 2004-5.  Seems to fit intuitively for me.

If you go by the belief that 9/11 began the 4T, that would place the Homelanders' starting date around 1997-8ish, correct? Which wouldn't be far off from the dates that sources like Gallup, Pew Research, and The New York Times use for Millennials and Zers (usually a cutoff of ~1995-98).

Honestly, I don't abide by the idea that generations *must* be ~20-25 years each. I believe that as technology progresses, it makes sense for each generation to get shorter and shorter. A 12 year old, who S&H consider a tail-end "Millennial", for example, grew up with much more advanced technology than even a 21 year old "Millennial". The former does not know a world without iPhones, while the latter spent nearly all of their childhood (ages 5-12) *without* iPhones.

Here's my idea of generations (feel free to disagree).

Lost Generation: 1883-1900
Greatest Generation: 1901-1924
Silent Generation: 1925-1945
Baby boomers: 1946-1964
Gen X: 1965-1981
Gen Y/Millennials: 1982-1996
Gen Z/Homelanders: 1997-present (if Trump's presidency brings on a certain world-changing event, an ending date could be found for this generation)

You've got it backwards. Because what defines a saeculum is human lifespan, increasing life spans have lengthened seacula and also turnings.

Incorrect. The human maximum lifespan has not increased and has remained consistantly in the 120 year range since ancient times. The only difference is that the AVERAGE human lifespan has increased. Largely though massive reduction in deaths among the very young. You're not Eric, so I expect you to have an understanding of how averaging works considering it is something most people in learn in fourth grade maths class.

That being said, as human life spans have not increased but rather only the numbers of each generation reaching into late elderhood there could be some lengthening of the saeculum but the evidence for such is not present as of yet.
It's true that much of the increase in average lifespans is because of increase in infant and early childhood. However, it is also true that lifespans for people who reach adulthood or even middle-age have also increased. With advances in medicine and fewer people smoking, fewer people in their 50s and 60s are dying from diseases such as pneumonia, influenza, emphysema, or heart disease, and the old-old (over 75 or 80) are the fastest growing demographic.
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#26
(12-04-2016, 06:22 AM)HoldOn Wrote: It should be noted that on sites like Reddit and Facebook, most people there seem to think 9/11 was the "breaking point" from Millennials to Gen Z, not the 2008 Recession/Obama election.

And they'de be right too. Just about any road of insanity that the culturo-political landscape of the present is on, can be traced back to 9/11. It was the day that opened the gates to the zoo (the cage that the Neo-Cohens were put in, for example), and it was the day the 90's ended. Slowly, the realization spread that society was truly unglued and the false flag watchmen off their rocker for real, and it wasn't fun. The financial crisis of 2008, on the other hand, happened in a society that was already apprehensive all over. (First time I heard about the imminent housing bubble was in 2005 at the latest, for example.)
Every time period believes the Crisis "is now".

1970 Core X

Gothenburg, Sweden
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#27
(02-17-2017, 02:51 PM)Tuss Wrote:
(12-04-2016, 06:22 AM)HoldOn Wrote: It should be noted that on sites like Reddit and Facebook, most people there seem to think 9/11 was the "breaking point" from Millennials to Gen Z, not the 2008 Recession/Obama election.

And they'de be right too. Just about any road of insanity that the culturo-political landscape of the present is on, can be traced back to 9/11. It was the day that opened the gates to the zoo (the cage that the Neo-Cohens were put in, for example), and it was the day the 90's ended. Slowly, the realization spread that society was truly unglued and the false flag watchmen off their rocker for real, and it wasn't fun. The financial crisis of 2008, on the other hand, happened in a society that was already apprehensive all over. (First time I heard about the imminent housing bubble was in 2005 at the latest, for example.)

I wholeheartedly agree that the 911 attacks (2001) should be the marker for the birth of the Homelander generation.  Which means that this so-called Artist generation is fast approaching the minimum age for military enlistment in the United States.
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#28
(02-17-2017, 02:57 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: I wholeheartedly agree that the 911 attacks (2001) should be the marker for the birth of the Millennial generation.

Hey, thanks! I don't recall we used to agree on much, but it's nice we're on the same page about this. Smile

The way I see it is pretty simple really, provided you don't fall into the trap of overambitious exactitude (certainly not saying I'm innocent in that department):

Xers: People born in the 60's and 70's (The Awakening)
Millennials: People born in the 80's and 90's (The Unraveling)
Zeders: People born in the 00's and 10's (The Crisis)

If anything, the start date of the Millennial generation and Generation Z would be slightly slanted to the previous decade, i.e beginning to be born in the late 70's and late 90's, respectively.
Every time period believes the Crisis "is now".

1970 Core X

Gothenburg, Sweden
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#29
(02-17-2017, 03:14 PM)Tuss Wrote:
(02-17-2017, 02:57 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: I wholeheartedly agree that the 911 attacks (2001) should be the marker for the birth of the Millennial generation.

Hey, thanks! I don't recall we used to agree on much, but it's nice we're on the same page about this. Smile

The way I see it is pretty simple really, provided you don't fall into the trap of overambitious exactitude (certainly not saying I'm innocent in that department):

Xers: People born in the 60's and 70's (The Awakening)
Millennials: People born in the 80's and 90's (The Unraveling)
Zeders: People born in the 00's and 10's (The Crisis)

If anything, the start date of the Millennial generation and Generation Z would be slightly slanted to the previous decade, i.e beginning to be born in the late 70's and late 90's, respectively.
Note that, in a follow-up post, I corrected "Millennial" to read "Homelander."
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#30
(02-17-2017, 03:14 PM)Tuss Wrote:
(02-17-2017, 02:57 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: I wholeheartedly agree that the 911 attacks (2001) should be the marker for the birth of the Millennial generation.

Hey, thanks! I don't recall we used to agree on much, but it's nice we're on the same page about this. Smile

The way I see it is pretty simple really, provided you don't fall into the trap of overambitious exactitude (certainly not saying I'm innocent in that department):

Xers: People born in the 60's and 70's (The Awakening)
Millennials: People born in the 80's and 90's (The Unraveling)
Zeders: People born in the 00's and 10's (The Crisis)

If anything, the start date of the Millennial generation and Generation Z would be slightly slanted to the previous decade, i.e beginning to be born in the late 70's and late 90's, respectively.

Vice versa. The crisis started in 2008. "Homelanders" is a bad name, because it refers to 9-11, when the Crisis DIDN'T start. Millennials 1982-2005 (it might be 2003) since the Awakening started in 1984. Zeders 2005-2025.

Turnings and Generations are not 20 years long. That's 21. Makes a difference long-term.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#31
(02-17-2017, 05:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(02-17-2017, 03:14 PM)Tuss Wrote:
(02-17-2017, 02:57 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: I wholeheartedly agree that the 911 attacks (2001) should be the marker for the birth of the Millennial generation.

Hey, thanks! I don't recall we used to agree on much, but it's nice we're on the same page about this. Smile

The way I see it is pretty simple really, provided you don't fall into the trap of overambitious exactitude (certainly not saying I'm innocent in that department):

Xers: People born in the 60's and 70's (The Awakening)
Millennials: People born in the 80's and 90's (The Unraveling)
Zeders: People born in the 00's and 10's (The Crisis)

If anything, the start date of the Millennial generation and Generation Z would be slightly slanted to the previous decade, i.e beginning to be born in the late 70's and late 90's, respectively.

Vice versa. The crisis started in 2008. "Homelanders" is a bad name, because it refers to 9-11, when the Crisis DIDN'T start. Millennials 1982-2005 (it might be 2003) since the Awakening started in 1984. Zeders 2005-2025 (or a bit earlier)
Actually, S&H theory lays out different markers for the generations and the turnings, the latter of which occurs about 2-5 years after a new generation begins, according to the book.
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#32
(02-17-2017, 02:51 PM)Tuss Wrote:
(12-04-2016, 06:22 AM)HoldOn Wrote: It should be noted that on sites like Reddit and Facebook, most people there seem to think 9/11 was the "breaking point" from Millennials to Gen Z, not the 2008 Recession/Obama election.

And they'de be right too. Just about any road of insanity that the culturo-political landscape of the present is on, can be traced back to 9/11. It was the day that opened the gates to the zoo (the cage that the Neo-Cohens were put in, for example), and it was the day the 90's ended. Slowly, the realization spread that society was truly unglued and the false flag watchmen off their rocker for real, and it wasn't fun. The financial crisis of 2008, on the other hand, happened in a society that was already apprehensive all over. (First time I heard about the imminent housing bubble was in 2005 at the latest, for example.)

No-one heard of the housing bubble in 2005. If you did, you were one of a few. Most people thought housing was the best possible investment. 2001 changed nothing; the neo-cons were already in, and they allowed it to happen. Neo-cons were nothing new; it was business as usual. The military-industrial complex had given us unnecessary war after unnecessary war for decades already. It was just back to normal. Like father, like son. Iraq, here we came, for no reason.

Bush was not the Crisis, any more than Coolidge was; he CAUSED the Crisis. But society wasn't wise to the unglued; they voted him back in, remember? On the basis of culture wars issues. Remember the name S&H gave to the 3T? It was still going full blast in 2004. Remember what Greg Palast said? My signature line for some years. All the voters cared about in red states were gay marriage, abortion and Monica Lewinsky. That was the election of 2004. Thoroughly 3T. There was something the matter with Kansas.

Generations begin a few years before a turning, so 2005 is an appropriate start date for Generation Z, or maybe a year or two before. Not 1998, which is what you are claiming if you say the 4T started in 2001.

And don't forget, this 4T is still getting started. That's what you understand if you realize that the 4T started in 2008, and will be a normal-length turning, because this is going to be a normal-length saeculum.

With Drump, there's no question that we are in Crisis now. He is a walking disaster. The Twilight Zone. Sick Society.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#33
(02-17-2017, 05:52 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote:
(02-17-2017, 05:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(02-17-2017, 03:14 PM)Tuss Wrote:
(02-17-2017, 02:57 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: I wholeheartedly agree that the 911 attacks (2001) should be the marker for the birth of the Millennial generation.

Hey, thanks! I don't recall we used to agree on much, but it's nice we're on the same page about this. Smile

The way I see it is pretty simple really, provided you don't fall into the trap of overambitious exactitude (certainly not saying I'm innocent in that department):

Xers: People born in the 60's and 70's (The Awakening)
Millennials: People born in the 80's and 90's (The Unraveling)
Zeders: People born in the 00's and 10's (The Crisis)

If anything, the start date of the Millennial generation and Generation Z would be slightly slanted to the previous decade, i.e beginning to be born in the late 70's and late 90's, respectively.

Vice versa. The crisis started in 2008. "Homelanders" is a bad name, because it refers to 9-11, when the Crisis DIDN'T start. Millennials 1982-2005 (it might be 2003) since the Awakening started in 1984. Zeders 2005-2025 (or a bit earlier)
Actually, S&H theory lays out different markers for the generations and the turnings, the latter of which occurs about 2-5 years after a new generation begins, according to the book.

Indeed, which would put the Homeland or Generation Z to start in about 1998, if 2001 is the start of the 4T.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#34
(02-17-2017, 02:51 PM)Tuss Wrote:
(12-04-2016, 06:22 AM)HoldOn Wrote: It should be noted that on sites like Reddit and Facebook, most people there seem to think 9/11 was the "breaking point" from Millennials to Gen Z, not the 2008 Recession/Obama election.

And they'de be right too. Just about any road of insanity that the culturo-political landscape of the present is on, can be traced back to 9/11. It was the day that opened the gates to the zoo (the cage that the Neo-Cohens were put in, for example), and it was the day the 90's ended. Slowly, the realization spread that society was truly unglued and the false flag watchmen off their rocker for real, and it wasn't fun. The financial crisis of 2008, on the other hand, happened in a society that was already apprehensive all over. (First time I heard about the imminent housing bubble was in 2005 at the latest, for example.)

A week after 9/11 Bush went to a mosque and said that Muslims were not the enemy and that Islam was a religion of peace. Now compare that with now, where the Republicans have gone full Islamophobic bigot, inciting people to hatred with hysterical fears. That is the difference between a 3T and a 4T.

All you people who still think that 9/11 was the start of the 4T are just simply wrong, period.

Also, I hope "Neo-Cohen" is a typo, and not an antisemitic slur...
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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#35
(02-17-2017, 11:07 PM)Odin Wrote:
(02-17-2017, 02:51 PM)Tuss Wrote:
(12-04-2016, 06:22 AM)HoldOn Wrote: It should be noted that on sites like Reddit and Facebook, most people there seem to think 9/11 was the "breaking point" from Millennials to Gen Z, not the 2008 Recession/Obama election.

And they'de be right too. Just about any road of insanity that the culturo-political landscape of the present is on, can be traced back to 9/11. It was the day that opened the gates to the zoo (the cage that the Neo-Cohens were put in, for example), and it was the day the 90's ended. Slowly, the realization spread that society was truly unglued and the false flag watchmen off their rocker for real, and it wasn't fun. The financial crisis of 2008, on the other hand, happened in a society that was already apprehensive all over. (First time I heard about the imminent housing bubble was in 2005 at the latest, for example.)

A week after 9/11 Bush went to a mosque and said that Muslims were not the enemy and that Islam was a religion of peace. Now compare that with now, where the Republicans have gone full Islamophobic bigot, inciting people to hatred with hysterical fears. That is the difference between a 3T and a 4T.

All you people who still think that 9/11 was the start of the 4T are just simply wrong, period.

Also, I hope "Neo-Cohen" is a typo, and not an antisemitic slur...

Bush said that to ease tensions but the general public felt differently and felt the complete opposite. People were scared it was going to be world war 3 and people started to get very paranoid. 9/11 was the start of the 4T.
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#36
(02-17-2017, 05:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: <snip>

With Drump, there's no question that we are in Crisis now. He is a walking disaster. The Twilight Zone. Sick Society.

The twilight zone is correct.  Trump of course isn't the only manifestation.

I'm sill sort of locked in on our

Teenage Mutant Ninja BlackBlocers.  I'm really weirded out by those.
---Value Added Cool
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#37
(02-18-2017, 02:55 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:
(02-17-2017, 05:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: <snip>

With Drump, there's no question that we are in Crisis now. He is a walking disaster. The Twilight Zone. Sick Society.

The twilight zone is correct.  Trump of course isn't the only manifestation.

I'm sill sort of locked in on our

Teenage Mutant Ninja BlackBlocers.  I'm really weirded out by those.

Not me. I find them entirely plausible, if not laudable.

But stay tuned; I've a feeling we've just started.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#38
One can get guidance from the spacing between the first birth year of a generation and the start of the turning associated with it. For Millies they start in 1982 and the turning starts in 1984 for a spacing of 2 years. Proceeding back to the Puritans you have 3, 3, 4, 7, 3, 5, 1, 0, 2, 6, 3, 3. I don't recall the earlier dates. But this gives you an idea. If we assume a 2008 4T start then the Homies first year will be between 2001 and 2008 with 2004-5 being most likely.

The generational model gives a different kind of answer, the start of the next 1T minus 21 years. This doesn't do much good since the start of the 1T is unknown. But it illustrates that a lot of what dates they end up getting depends a lot on what they end up doing when they are older.
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#39
The early 1920s had a red scare. By that definition, the 1920s were the start of 4T, which is wrong. Same argument applies to 9/11. 4T didn't start until 2008.

If you compare the ages of the current generations with the ones to the late 1930s, they are almost identical to what we see today.
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#40
(02-18-2017, 08:53 AM)FLBones Wrote: The early 1920s had a red scare. By that definition, the 1920s were the start of 4T, which is wrong. Same argument applies to 9/11. 4T didn't start until 2008.

If you compare the ages of the current generations with the ones to the late 1930s, they are almost identical to what we see today.

Exactly. The only people I see nowadays insisting that 9/11 was the start of the 4T are Fascists are other far-right fucks thirsting for a holy war in the Middle East.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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