Homelanders: Mid 90s or Mid 00s?

[Tuss]

(12-04-2016, 06:22 AM)HoldOn Wrote: It should be noted that on sites like Reddit and Facebook, most people there seem to think 9/11 was the "breaking point" from Millennials to Gen Z, not the 2008 Recession/Obama election.

And they'de be right too. Just about any road of insanity that the culturo-political landscape of the present is on, can be traced back to 9/11. It was the day that opened the gates to the zoo (the cage that the Neo-Cohens were put in, for example), and it was the day the 90's ended. Slowly, the realization spread that society was truly unglued and the false flag watchmen off their rocker for real, and it wasn't fun. The financial crisis of 2008, on the other hand, happened in a society that was already apprehensive all over. (First time I heard about the imminent housing bubble was in 2005 at the latest, for example.)

[TeacherinExile]

(02-17-2017, 02:51 PM)Tuss Wrote:

(12-04-2016, 06:22 AM)HoldOn Wrote: It should be noted that on sites like Reddit and Facebook, most people there seem to think 9/11 was the "breaking point" from Millennials to Gen Z, not the 2008 Recession/Obama election.

And they'de be right too. Just about any road of insanity that the culturo-political landscape of the present is on, can be traced back to 9/11. It was the day that opened the gates to the zoo (the cage that the Neo-Cohens were put in, for example), and it was the day the 90's ended. Slowly, the realization spread that society was truly unglued and the false flag watchmen off their rocker for real, and it wasn't fun. The financial crisis of 2008, on the other hand, happened in a society that was already apprehensive all over. (First time I heard about the imminent housing bubble was in 2005 at the latest, for example.)

I wholeheartedly agree that the 911 attacks (2001) should be the marker for the birth of the Homelander generation.  Which means that this so-called Artist generation is fast approaching the minimum age for military enlistment in the United States.

[Tuss]

(02-17-2017, 02:57 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: I wholeheartedly agree that the 911 attacks (2001) should be the marker for the birth of the Millennial generation.

Hey, thanks! I don't recall we used to agree on much, but it's nice we're on the same page about this.

The way I see it is pretty simple really, provided you don't fall into the trap of overambitious exactitude (certainly not saying I'm innocent in that department):

Xers: People born in the 60's and 70's (The Awakening)
Millennials: People born in the 80's and 90's (The Unraveling)
Zeders: People born in the 00's and 10's (The Crisis)

If anything, the start date of the Millennial generation and Generation Z would be slightly slanted to the previous decade, i.e beginning to be born in the late 70's and late 90's, respectively.

[TeacherinExile]

(02-17-2017, 03:14 PM)Tuss Wrote:

(02-17-2017, 02:57 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: I wholeheartedly agree that the 911 attacks (2001) should be the marker for the birth of the Millennial generation.

Hey, thanks! I don't recall we used to agree on much, but it's nice we're on the same page about this.

The way I see it is pretty simple really, provided you don't fall into the trap of overambitious exactitude (certainly not saying I'm innocent in that department):

Xers: People born in the 60's and 70's (The Awakening)
Millennials: People born in the 80's and 90's (The Unraveling)
Zeders: People born in the 00's and 10's (The Crisis)

If anything, the start date of the Millennial generation and Generation Z would be slightly slanted to the previous decade, i.e beginning to be born in the late 70's and late 90's, respectively.

Note that, in a follow-up post, I corrected "Millennial" to read "Homelander."

[Eric the Green]

(02-17-2017, 03:14 PM)Tuss Wrote:

(02-17-2017, 02:57 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: I wholeheartedly agree that the 911 attacks (2001) should be the marker for the birth of the Millennial generation.

Hey, thanks! I don't recall we used to agree on much, but it's nice we're on the same page about this.

The way I see it is pretty simple really, provided you don't fall into the trap of overambitious exactitude (certainly not saying I'm innocent in that department):

Xers: People born in the 60's and 70's (The Awakening)
Millennials: People born in the 80's and 90's (The Unraveling)
Zeders: People born in the 00's and 10's (The Crisis)

If anything, the start date of the Millennial generation and Generation Z would be slightly slanted to the previous decade, i.e beginning to be born in the late 70's and late 90's, respectively.

Vice versa. The crisis started in 2008. "Homelanders" is a bad name, because it refers to 9-11, when the Crisis DIDN'T start. Millennials 1982-2005 (it might be 2003) since the Awakening started in 1984. Zeders 2005-2025.

Turnings and Generations are not 20 years long. That's 21. Makes a difference long-term.

[TeacherinExile]

(02-17-2017, 05:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-17-2017, 03:14 PM)Tuss Wrote:

(02-17-2017, 02:57 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: I wholeheartedly agree that the 911 attacks (2001) should be the marker for the birth of the Millennial generation.

Hey, thanks! I don't recall we used to agree on much, but it's nice we're on the same page about this.

The way I see it is pretty simple really, provided you don't fall into the trap of overambitious exactitude (certainly not saying I'm innocent in that department):

Xers: People born in the 60's and 70's (The Awakening)
Millennials: People born in the 80's and 90's (The Unraveling)
Zeders: People born in the 00's and 10's (The Crisis)

If anything, the start date of the Millennial generation and Generation Z would be slightly slanted to the previous decade, i.e beginning to be born in the late 70's and late 90's, respectively.

Vice versa. The crisis started in 2008. "Homelanders" is a bad name, because it refers to 9-11, when the Crisis DIDN'T start. Millennials 1982-2005 (it might be 2003) since the Awakening started in 1984. Zeders 2005-2025 (or a bit earlier)

Actually, S&H theory lays out different markers for the generations and the turnings, the latter of which occurs about 2-5 years after a new generation begins, according to the book.

[Eric the Green]

(02-17-2017, 02:51 PM)Tuss Wrote:

(12-04-2016, 06:22 AM)HoldOn Wrote: It should be noted that on sites like Reddit and Facebook, most people there seem to think 9/11 was the "breaking point" from Millennials to Gen Z, not the 2008 Recession/Obama election.

And they'de be right too. Just about any road of insanity that the culturo-political landscape of the present is on, can be traced back to 9/11. It was the day that opened the gates to the zoo (the cage that the Neo-Cohens were put in, for example), and it was the day the 90's ended. Slowly, the realization spread that society was truly unglued and the false flag watchmen off their rocker for real, and it wasn't fun. The financial crisis of 2008, on the other hand, happened in a society that was already apprehensive all over. (First time I heard about the imminent housing bubble was in 2005 at the latest, for example.)

No-one heard of the housing bubble in 2005. If you did, you were one of a few. Most people thought housing was the best possible investment. 2001 changed nothing; the neo-cons were already in, and they allowed it to happen. Neo-cons were nothing new; it was business as usual. The military-industrial complex had given us unnecessary war after unnecessary war for decades already. It was just back to normal. Like father, like son. Iraq, here we came, for no reason.

Bush was not the Crisis, any more than Coolidge was; he CAUSED the Crisis. But society wasn't wise to the unglued; they voted him back in, remember? On the basis of culture wars issues. Remember the name S&H gave to the 3T? It was still going full blast in 2004. Remember what Greg Palast said? My signature line for some years. All the voters cared about in red states were gay marriage, abortion and Monica Lewinsky. That was the election of 2004. Thoroughly 3T. There was something the matter with Kansas.

Generations begin a few years before a turning, so 2005 is an appropriate start date for Generation Z, or maybe a year or two before. Not 1998, which is what you are claiming if you say the 4T started in 2001.

And don't forget, this 4T is still getting started. That's what you understand if you realize that the 4T started in 2008, and will be a normal-length turning, because this is going to be a normal-length saeculum.

With Drump, there's no question that we are in Crisis now. He is a walking disaster. The Twilight Zone. Sick Society.

[Eric the Green]

(02-17-2017, 05:52 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote:

(02-17-2017, 05:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-17-2017, 03:14 PM)Tuss Wrote:

(02-17-2017, 02:57 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: I wholeheartedly agree that the 911 attacks (2001) should be the marker for the birth of the Millennial generation.

Hey, thanks! I don't recall we used to agree on much, but it's nice we're on the same page about this.

The way I see it is pretty simple really, provided you don't fall into the trap of overambitious exactitude (certainly not saying I'm innocent in that department):

Xers: People born in the 60's and 70's (The Awakening)
Millennials: People born in the 80's and 90's (The Unraveling)
Zeders: People born in the 00's and 10's (The Crisis)

If anything, the start date of the Millennial generation and Generation Z would be slightly slanted to the previous decade, i.e beginning to be born in the late 70's and late 90's, respectively.

Vice versa. The crisis started in 2008. "Homelanders" is a bad name, because it refers to 9-11, when the Crisis DIDN'T start. Millennials 1982-2005 (it might be 2003) since the Awakening started in 1984. Zeders 2005-2025 (or a bit earlier)

Actually, S&H theory lays out different markers for the generations and the turnings, the latter of which occurs about 2-5 years after a new generation begins, according to the book.

Indeed, which would put the Homeland or Generation Z to start in about 1998, if 2001 is the start of the 4T.

[Odin]

(02-17-2017, 02:51 PM)Tuss Wrote:

(12-04-2016, 06:22 AM)HoldOn Wrote: It should be noted that on sites like Reddit and Facebook, most people there seem to think 9/11 was the "breaking point" from Millennials to Gen Z, not the 2008 Recession/Obama election.

And they'de be right too. Just about any road of insanity that the culturo-political landscape of the present is on, can be traced back to 9/11. It was the day that opened the gates to the zoo (the cage that the Neo-Cohens were put in, for example), and it was the day the 90's ended. Slowly, the realization spread that society was truly unglued and the false flag watchmen off their rocker for real, and it wasn't fun. The financial crisis of 2008, on the other hand, happened in a society that was already apprehensive all over. (First time I heard about the imminent housing bubble was in 2005 at the latest, for example.)

A week after 9/11 Bush went to a mosque and said that Muslims were not the enemy and that Islam was a religion of peace. Now compare that with now, where the Republicans have gone full Islamophobic bigot, inciting people to hatred with hysterical fears. That is the difference between a 3T and a 4T.

All you people who still think that 9/11 was the start of the 4T are just simply wrong, period.

Also, I hope "Neo-Cohen" is a typo, and not an antisemitic slur...

[disasterzone]

(02-17-2017, 11:07 PM)Odin Wrote:

(02-17-2017, 02:51 PM)Tuss Wrote:

(12-04-2016, 06:22 AM)HoldOn Wrote: It should be noted that on sites like Reddit and Facebook, most people there seem to think 9/11 was the "breaking point" from Millennials to Gen Z, not the 2008 Recession/Obama election.

And they'de be right too. Just about any road of insanity that the culturo-political landscape of the present is on, can be traced back to 9/11. It was the day that opened the gates to the zoo (the cage that the Neo-Cohens were put in, for example), and it was the day the 90's ended. Slowly, the realization spread that society was truly unglued and the false flag watchmen off their rocker for real, and it wasn't fun. The financial crisis of 2008, on the other hand, happened in a society that was already apprehensive all over. (First time I heard about the imminent housing bubble was in 2005 at the latest, for example.)

A week after 9/11 Bush went to a mosque and said that Muslims were not the enemy and that Islam was a religion of peace. Now compare that with now, where the Republicans have gone full Islamophobic bigot, inciting people to hatred with hysterical fears. That is the difference between a 3T and a 4T.

All you people who still think that 9/11 was the start of the 4T are just simply wrong, period.

Also, I hope "Neo-Cohen" is a typo, and not an antisemitic slur...

Bush said that to ease tensions but the general public felt differently and felt the complete opposite. People were scared it was going to be world war 3 and people started to get very paranoid. 9/11 was the start of the 4T.

[Ragnarök_62]

(02-17-2017, 05:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: <snip>

With Drump, there's no question that we are in Crisis now. He is a walking disaster. The Twilight Zone. Sick Society.

The twilight zone is correct.  Trump of course isn't the only manifestation.

I'm sill sort of locked in on our

Teenage Mutant Ninja BlackBlocers.  I'm really weirded out by those.

[Eric the Green]

(02-18-2017, 02:55 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(02-17-2017, 05:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: <snip>

With Drump, there's no question that we are in Crisis now. He is a walking disaster. The Twilight Zone. Sick Society.

The twilight zone is correct.  Trump of course isn't the only manifestation.

I'm sill sort of locked in on our

Teenage Mutant Ninja BlackBlocers.  I'm really weirded out by those.

Not me. I find them entirely plausible, if not laudable.

But stay tuned; I've a feeling we've just started.

[Mikebert]

One can get guidance from the spacing between the first birth year of a generation and the start of the turning associated with it. For Millies they start in 1982 and the turning starts in 1984 for a spacing of 2 years. Proceeding back to the Puritans you have 3, 3, 4, 7, 3, 5, 1, 0, 2, 6, 3, 3. I don't recall the earlier dates. But this gives you an idea. If we assume a 2008 4T start then the Homies first year will be between 2001 and 2008 with 2004-5 being most likely.

The generational model gives a different kind of answer, the start of the next 1T minus 21 years. This doesn't do much good since the start of the 1T is unknown. But it illustrates that a lot of what dates they end up getting depends a lot on what they end up doing when they are older.

[FLBones]

The early 1920s had a red scare. By that definition, the 1920s were the start of 4T, which is wrong. Same argument applies to 9/11. 4T didn't start until 2008.

If you compare the ages of the current generations with the ones to the late 1930s, they are almost identical to what we see today.

[Odin]

(02-18-2017, 08:53 AM)FLBones Wrote: The early 1920s had a red scare. By that definition, the 1920s were the start of 4T, which is wrong. Same argument applies to 9/11. 4T didn't start until 2008.

If you compare the ages of the current generations with the ones to the late 1930s, they are almost identical to what we see today.

Exactly. The only people I see nowadays insisting that 9/11 was the start of the 4T are Fascists are other far-right fucks thirsting for a holy war in the Middle East.

[TeacherinExile]

Okay, people, time out.  Go back and re-read the book.  Strauss and Howe laid out different markers for the beginning and end of the various generations, as well as different markers for the corresponding turnings that follow 2-5 years later.

In contending that Generation Z (or the Homelanders) began in 2001 with the 9-11 attacks, I for one am not saying that the Crisis turning began at the same time.  Quite the contrary.  It comes some years later after a new generation is born.

[David Horn]

(02-18-2017, 10:49 AM)TeacherinExile Wrote: Okay, people, time out.  Go back and re-read the book.  Strauss and Howe laid out different markers for the beginning and end of the various generations, as well as different markers for the corresponding turnings that follow 2-5 years later.

In contending that Generation Z (or the Homelanders) began in 2001 with the 9-11 attacks, I for one am not saying that the Crisis turning began at the same time.  Quite the contrary.  It comes some years later after a new generation is born.

I was solidly in the not-2001 camp for a 4T start.  Now, I'm wondering whether we have some hybrid 4T start ... perhaps mimicing the ACW.  I've always beleived that the "anomoly" seen by the authors was, if fact, a bifurcated 4T start, and finish for that matter.  The warrior mood started earlier in the SOuth, and lasted later into the 1870s.  That may be a good model for internal 4Ts. 

We may get to see.  It seems that the country is split in several pieces, but the two dominant factions see the world through totally different lenses. 

• The conservatives of most stripes see us at a crossroads, where our physical safety and power need to be addressed, and nothing is too extreme in pursuit of those goals.  Most, though not all, in this camp are in the GOP or at least allied with them.  They are typically in the 2001 camp
  
• The liberals of most stripes see us at a crossroads too, but the challenges are social and, to a lesser degree, economic.  Mos of this group are in the Democratic camp to one degree or another.  Typically, they are in the 2008 camp.
  

So you have to ask: are these two groups even responding to the same stimulii, and, if so, are they in opposite camps that have been strangely uncorrelated until now?  If so, then the 4T looks very different to each group, meaning the resoution will have to happen just to know which vision succeeded as "the 4T".

I don't see a 2001 start either, but those who do, really see it clearly.

[TeacherinExile]

(02-18-2017, 12:42 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-18-2017, 10:49 AM)TeacherinExile Wrote: Okay, people, time out.  Go back and re-read the book.  Strauss and Howe laid out different markers for the beginning and end of the various generations, as well as different markers for the corresponding turnings that follow 2-5 years later.

In contending that Generation Z (or the Homelanders) began in 2001 with the 9-11 attacks, I for one am not saying that the Crisis turning began at the same time.  Quite the contrary.  It comes some years later after a new generation is born.

I was solidly in the not-2001 camp for a 4T start.  Now, I'm wondering whether we have some hybrid 4T start ... perhaps mimicing the ACW.  I've always beleived that the "anomoly" seen by the authors was, if fact, a bifurcated 4T start, and finish for that matter.  The warrior mood started earlier in the SOuth, and lasted later into the 1870s.  That may be a good model for internal 4Ts. 

We may get to see.  It seems that the country is split in several pieces, but the two dominant factions see the world through totally different lenses. 

• The conservatives of most stripes see us at a crossroads, where our physical safety and power need to be addressed, and nothing is too extreme in pursuit of those goals.  Most, though not all, in this camp are in the GOP or at least allied with them.  They are typically in the 2001 camp
  
• The liberals of most stripes see us at a crossroads too, but the challenges are social and, to a lesser degree, economic.  Mos of this group are in the Democratic camp to one degree or another.  Typically, they are in the 2008 camp.
  

So you have to ask: are these two groups even responding to the same stimulii, and, if so, are they in opposite camps that have been strangely uncorrelated until now?  If so, then the 4T looks very different to each group, meaning the resoution will have to happen just to know which vision succeeded as "the 4T".

I don't see a 2001 start either, but those who do, really see it clearly.

I follow your thinking here, especially your characterization of this fourth turning as a "hybrid" of sort.  Seems more complex as we go along: a "start-stop-start-stop" kind of crisis, owing perhaps to the many fiscal and monetary policies that the federal government can bring to bear--on the economic/financial manifestations of crisis especially.  As for the political polarization, I'm losing some confidence that the red/blue divide can be bridged.  More and more, Americans are choosing up sides, as if preparing for a cold civil war, hopefully one that doesn't devolve into a spiral of violence.  I wonder, how close are we to the flashpoint when one side or the other declares, "Enough talk, draw your weapon."?   (And we have plenty of those in military ranks and among civilians.)

Perish the thought.  We flirted with that in the Sixties and into the Seventies.  Some of us here remember.

PBS Newshour aired a segment that shows how (even within a state) the political divisions are stark:

"Between this vegetarian cafe and a ‘Trump’ cafe in Texas, a political chasm"
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/vegetaria...cal-chasm/

Increasingly, we're talking past each other, shouting over one another, as if across the Grand Canyon.  I keep thinking that the whole Trump/Russia controversy will blow over, that Trump will settle in, get off the perpetual campaign merry-go-round, and get down to the serious business of governing.   One can hope...

[disasterzone]

(02-18-2017, 10:49 AM)TeacherinExile Wrote: Okay, people, time out.  Go back and re-read the book.  Strauss and Howe laid out different markers for the beginning and end of the various generations, as well as different markers for the corresponding turnings that follow 2-5 years later.

In contending that Generation Z (or the Homelanders) began in 2001 with the 9-11 attacks, I for one am not saying that the Crisis turning began at the same time.  Quite the contrary.  It comes some years later after a new generation is born.

(02-18-2017, 12:42 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-18-2017, 10:49 AM)TeacherinExile Wrote: Okay, people, time out.  Go back and re-read the book.  Strauss and Howe laid out different markers for the beginning and end of the various generations, as well as different markers for the corresponding turnings that follow 2-5 years later.

In contending that Generation Z (or the Homelanders) began in 2001 with the 9-11 attacks, I for one am not saying that the Crisis turning began at the same time.  Quite the contrary.  It comes some years later after a new generation is born.

I was solidly in the not-2001 camp for a 4T start.  Now, I'm wondering whether we have some hybrid 4T start ... perhaps mimicing the ACW.  I've always beleived that the "anomoly" seen by the authors was, if fact, a bifurcated 4T start, and finish for that matter.  The warrior mood started earlier in the SOuth, and lasted later into the 1870s.  That may be a good model for internal 4Ts. 

We may get to see.  It seems that the country is split in several pieces, but the two dominant factions see the world through totally different lenses. 

• The conservatives of most stripes see us at a crossroads, where our physical safety and power need to be addressed, and nothing is too extreme in pursuit of those goals.  Most, though not all, in this camp are in the GOP or at least allied with them.  They are typically in the 2001 camp
  
• The liberals of most stripes see us at a crossroads too, but the challenges are social and, to a lesser degree, economic.  Mos of this group are in the Democratic camp to one degree or another.  Typically, they are in the 2008 camp.
  

So you have to ask: are these two groups even responding to the same stimulii, and, if so, are they in opposite camps that have been strangely uncorrelated until now?  If so, then the 4T looks very different to each group, meaning the resoution will have to happen just to know which vision succeeded as "the 4T".

I don't see a 2001 start either, but those who do, really see it clearly.

I think 2001-2008 might have been a hybrid 3T/4T time. It had a 3T economics attitude but a 4T attitude on national security and being afraid of almost everything.
I think 2021-2028 might be a 4T/1T hybrid with some aspects regulated but other aspects very unregulated and division will continue to grow until people decide they're tired of fighting. The internal 4T might not come to a conclusion. Instead it might be issues go underground for things to function.

[disasterzone]

(02-18-2017, 03:30 PM)Tuss Wrote:

(02-18-2017, 09:58 AM)Odin Wrote: So you've gone full Fascist scum. Go to Hell.

Take a deep breath and calm down.

(02-18-2017, 10:01 AM)Odin Wrote: Exactly. The only people I see nowadays insisting that 9/11 was the start of the 4T are Fascists are other far-right fucks thirsting for a holy war in the Middle East.

Interesting since a "holy war" is exactly what I don't want and never did want, from the invasion of Afghanistan on. I was always against globalist foreign entanglements, always for peace and independant nation states in the Middle East. If you had known anything about the nationalist right you'd realize that's kind of the default attitude; actually inherent in the very label. Not that you can say the same about politically correct puppets of the military security complex, like Obama or Mrs Clinton (or Bush the younger).

There's no peace if nations are being oppressed. Why should we allow ISIS to run those countries?