Trump brought the Regeneracy, just not in the way he expected.

[Odin]

(03-10-2017, 04:40 PM)Galen Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 03:48 PM)Odin Wrote: What exactly are you guys meaning here by the "American Civil Religion"?

I realize that being so outraged can take a great of time but would you please grow a clue already.  Just follow the link to Wikipedia in the hope of gaining some enlightenment.  For crying out loud stop reading Salon, its rotting your brain.

That is what I originally thought you meant by it, but was confused because it's exactly the "Leftist intellectuals" you guys are attacking who are the LEAST likely to believe in that sort of civic religion, and it is where I part company with much of the Academic Left.

[SomeGuy]

(03-10-2017, 04:48 PM)Galen Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 04:44 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 04:35 PM)Galen Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 03:44 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Well considering that those colleges (especially the old liberal arts ones) have essentially reverted to their historical roles as "vicar-mills" for the dominant belief system, and competition for paid positions is fierce, it's not so surprising.

Molyneux has more or less said the same thing so you aren't only one to notice that.

Lots of people have said it.  I wasn't claiming to have originated it.

Not where I was going.  More like that realization is becoming common knowledge which would imply that the college degree bubble may be nearing its demise.

I think that the "college bubble" may in fact be nearing its demise, although I don't think the ideological aspects of that are as relevant as the declining number of available positions (even within academia) , the burgeoning costs, and associated debt.  Still, it may last for a while yet.

[SomeGuy]

(03-10-2017, 05:01 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 04:40 PM)Galen Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 03:48 PM)Odin Wrote: What exactly are you guys meaning here by the "American Civil Religion"?

I realize that being so outraged can take a great of time but would you please grow a clue already.  Just follow the link to Wikipedia in the hope of gaining some enlightenment.  For crying out loud stop reading Salon, its rotting your brain.

That is what I originally thought you meant by it, but was confused because it's exactly the "Leftist intellectuals" you guys are attacking who are the LEAST likely to believe in that sort of civic religion, and it is where I part company with much of the Academic Left.

I dunno, Odin, you can find a lot of schmaltzy rhetoric about "Who We Are", ritual invocations of Emma Lazarus' poem as if it were part of the Constitution, R2P, etc. among the leftward end of the commentariat.

[Odin]

(03-10-2017, 05:05 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 05:01 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 04:40 PM)Galen Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 03:48 PM)Odin Wrote: What exactly are you guys meaning here by the "American Civil Religion"?

I realize that being so outraged can take a great of time but would you please grow a clue already.  Just follow the link to Wikipedia in the hope of gaining some enlightenment.  For crying out loud stop reading Salon, its rotting your brain.

That is what I originally thought you meant by it, but was confused because it's exactly the "Leftist intellectuals" you guys are attacking who are the LEAST likely to believe in that sort of civic religion, and it is where I part company with much of the Academic Left.

I dunno, Odin, you can find a lot of schmaltzy rhetoric about "Who We Are", ritual invocations of Emma Lazarus' poem as if it were part of the Constitution, R2P, etc. among the leftward end of the commentariat.

And I think that is a sign of the REVIVAL of the civic religion on the Left.

[Kinser79]

(03-10-2017, 05:05 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 05:01 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 04:40 PM)Galen Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 03:48 PM)Odin Wrote: What exactly are you guys meaning here by the "American Civil Religion"?

I realize that being so outraged can take a great of time but would you please grow a clue already.  Just follow the link to Wikipedia in the hope of gaining some enlightenment.  For crying out loud stop reading Salon, its rotting your brain.

That is what I originally thought you meant by it, but was confused because it's exactly the "Leftist intellectuals" you guys are attacking who are the LEAST likely to believe in that sort of civic religion, and it is where I part company with much of the Academic Left.

I dunno, Odin, you can find a lot of schmaltzy rhetoric about "Who We Are", ritual invocations of Emma Lazarus' poem as if it were part of the Constitution, R2P, etc. among the leftward end of the commentariat.

Don't forget the constant mantra of "diversity is our strength" despite empirical evidence to the contrary. And "We're a nation of immigrants" despite the fact that immigration is an experience that an individual may go through but not one their descendants do (unless of course they emigrate).

[Kinser79]

(03-10-2017, 04:41 PM)Galen Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 04:14 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Trolls? 

In my case libertarian but in the minds of the clueless that amounts to the same thing.

Sounds familiar.  Being a classical liberal I'm often accused of fascism.  I've even been called a white supremacist--though thankfully not to my face.  Most Regressives aren't so brain dead as to say that to my face just yet.  But I am waiting for Black to be the new White.

[SomeGuy]

(03-10-2017, 05:27 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 05:05 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 05:01 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 04:40 PM)Galen Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 03:48 PM)Odin Wrote: What exactly are you guys meaning here by the "American Civil Religion"?

I realize that being so outraged can take a great of time but would you please grow a clue already.  Just follow the link to Wikipedia in the hope of gaining some enlightenment.  For crying out loud stop reading Salon, its rotting your brain.

That is what I originally thought you meant by it, but was confused because it's exactly the "Leftist intellectuals" you guys are attacking who are the LEAST likely to believe in that sort of civic religion, and it is where I part company with much of the Academic Left.

I dunno, Odin, you can find a lot of schmaltzy rhetoric about "Who We Are", ritual invocations of Emma Lazarus' poem as if it were part of the Constitution, R2P, etc. among the leftward end of the commentariat.

Don't forget the constant mantra of "diversity is our strength" despite empirical evidence to the contrary.  And "We're a nation of immigrants" despite the fact that immigration is an experience that an individual may go through but not one their descendants do (unless of course they emigrate).

Besides, most of my ancestors weren't immigrants but colonists.  Not the same dynamic at all.  In fact, their experience in the New World is precisely what I am trying to avoid for myself and my (eventual) posterity.

[Kinser79]

Well my ancestors were neither immigrants nor colonists. They were owned by colonists. That being said the condition of being a slave like the condition of being an immigrant is not something that is passed down gentetically. I don't even think it can be done culturally though I have often complained of what I call Slave Mind and Slave Mentality of my own people.

And mother hasn't spoken to me since I compared the Democrats to a plantation I as walking away from.

[Odin]

(03-10-2017, 05:27 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Don't forget the constant mantra of "diversity is our strength" despite empirical evidence to the contrary.  And "We're a nation of immigrants" despite the fact that immigration is an experience that an individual may go through but not one their descendants do (unless of course they emigrate).

You are being intentionally dishonest, putting meaning in those words not implied by the people saying them. Name me one immigrant group, excluding fringe cases like the Amish, that has not fully assimilated into American culture by the 3rd generation. The "We're a nation of immigrants" line is about pointing out the hypocrisy of people attacking immigrants when their own ancestors were immigrants. Steve Bannon's Irish Catholic ancestors caused as much hysteria as Muslims do now.

[Odin]

(03-10-2017, 05:29 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 04:41 PM)Galen Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 04:14 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Trolls? 

In my case libertarian but in the minds of the clueless that amounts to the same thing.

Sounds familiar.  Being a classical liberal I'm often accused of fascism.  I've even been called a white supremacist--though thankfully not to my face.  Most Regressives aren't so brain dead as to say that to my face just yet.  But I am waiting for Black to be the new White.

"Classical Liberal", sure you are.

[Kinser79]

(03-10-2017, 08:44 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 05:27 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Don't forget the constant mantra of "diversity is our strength" despite empirical evidence to the contrary.  And "We're a nation of immigrants" despite the fact that immigration is an experience that an individual may go through but not one their descendants do (unless of course they emigrate).

You are being intentionally dishonest, putting meaning in those words not implied by the people saying them. Name me one immigrant group, excluding fringe cases like the Amish, that has not fully assimilated into American culture by the 3rd generation. The "We're a nation of immigrants" line is about pointing out the hypocrisy of people attacking immigrants when their own ancestors were immigrants. Steve Bannon's Irish Catholic ancestors caused as much hysteria as Muslims do now.

Not at all. Those ho make claims that diversity is a strength mean that bringing in people from all the disparate cultures of the globe improves our society--where the evidence indicates it acually destroys social coheisen and collective faith in others.

And furthermore no, immigration is an experience. One may or may not be the offspring of immigrants but they are not themselves immigrants. To claim otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest.

It isn't my fault you have the self-awareness of a potato.

(03-10-2017, 08:48 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 05:29 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 04:41 PM)Galen Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 04:14 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Trolls? 

In my case libertarian but in the minds of the clueless that amounts to the same thing.

Sounds familiar.  Being a classical liberal I'm often accused of fascism.  I've even been called a white supremacist--though thankfully not to my face.  Most Regressives aren't so brain dead as to say that to my face just yet.  But I am waiting for Black to be the new White.

"Classical Liberal", sure you are.

My current political views have more in line with John Adams than yours do....to point to an other thread.

[Eric the Green]

Classical liberal today is as regressive as it gets.

[SomeGuy]

(03-10-2017, 08:44 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 05:27 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Don't forget the constant mantra of "diversity is our strength" despite empirical evidence to the contrary.  And "We're a nation of immigrants" despite the fact that immigration is an experience that an individual may go through but not one their descendants do (unless of course they emigrate).

You are being intentionally dishonest, putting meaning in those words not implied by the people saying them. Name me one immigrant group, excluding fringe cases like the Amish, that has not fully assimilated into American culture by the 3rd generation. The "We're a nation of immigrants" line is about pointing out the hypocrisy of people attacking immigrants when their own ancestors were immigrants. Steve Bannon's Irish Catholic ancestors caused as much hysteria as Muslims do now.

My only complaint with this line of argument is when it is used to justify policies, like "bilingual" education for small children, which erode that assimilation process.

I also dislike the extent to which that sort of thing gets ported to the other side of the Pond.  Those countries, despite all progressive claims to the contrary, are NOT "nations of immigrants" and in many cases have a very poor history of assimilating people (even white ones).

[Kinser79]

I think the Melinin Abundant Flying Rat will enlighten some here.  For others there is no hope.

[Odin]

(03-10-2017, 09:00 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 08:44 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 05:27 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Don't forget the constant mantra of "diversity is our strength" despite empirical evidence to the contrary.  And "We're a nation of immigrants" despite the fact that immigration is an experience that an individual may go through but not one their descendants do (unless of course they emigrate).

You are being intentionally dishonest, putting meaning in those words not implied by the people saying them. Name me one immigrant group, excluding fringe cases like the Amish, that has not fully assimilated into American culture by the 3rd generation. The "We're a nation of immigrants" line is about pointing out the hypocrisy of people attacking immigrants when their own ancestors were immigrants. Steve Bannon's Irish Catholic ancestors caused as much hysteria as Muslims do now.

My only complaint with this line of argument is when it is used to justify policies, like "bilingual" education for small children, which erode that assimilation process.

Oh I agree. I think that stuff is well-meaning, it comes from concerns about Latino immigrant children keeping up academically, but in the long run it hurts integration.

On a related note, I think the way we generally teach foreign languages in this country sucks. If we want Americans to have better proficiency with other languages it has to start at an earlier age than high school.

[Kinser79]

Finally Odin if you want a group that hasn't assimilated within three generations of arrival....Blacks. Some of our families have been on this continent or over 400 years. We aren't assimilated into American culture by and large, we are a culture parallel to it. I'm an exception that proves the rule.

If you don't like that group Chicanos. But in their case they didn't cross a boarder the boarder crossed them.

[Odin]

(03-10-2017, 09:01 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I think the Melinin Abundant Flying Rat will enlighten some here.  For others there is no hope.

The fact that the preview image has a stereotypical Muslim woman as wearing a chador rather than a simple hijab is enough to indicate the creator's ignorance, and no, I'm not going to watch that garbage.

[Kinser79]

(03-10-2017, 09:14 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 09:01 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I think the Melinin Abundant Flying Rat will enlighten some here.  For others there is no hope.

The fact that the preview image has a stereotypical Muslim woman as wearing a chador rather than a simple hijab is enough to indicate the creator's ignorance, and no, I'm not going to watch that garbage.

So you're not even going to bother to listen to an opposing view point. Got it. Good to know I can now move you into the category of those for whom there is no hope.

[Odin]

(03-10-2017, 09:11 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Finally Odin if you want a group that hasn't assimilated within three generations of arrival....Blacks.  Some of our families have been on this continent or over 400 years.  We aren't assimilated into American culture by and large, we are a culture parallel to it.  I'm an exception that proves the rule.

If you don't like that group Chicanos.  But in their case they didn't cross a boarder the boarder crossed them.

I consider black Americans to have a sub-culture within a greater American culture, not a separate culture. There are a lot of parts of American culture that are the creation of black Americans.

[SomeGuy]

Quote:Oh I agree. I think that stuff is well-meaning, it comes from concerns about Latino immigrant children keeping up academically, but in the long run it hurts integration.

Agreed.  It's misguided, Hispanic children already score higher than, say, native-born black children on standardized tests, and learning languages by immersion is not that difficult, especially for small children.  I know, I was dropped in a Dutch-speaking school when I was 6, and I managed.

Quote:On a related note, I think the way we generally teach foreign languages in this country sucks. If we want Americans to have better proficiency with other languages it has to start at an earlier age than high school.

It's easier once you learn your first one, whatever it is.  I have seen some good studies suggesting that you could teach Esperanto, which is supposed to be extremely simple to learn, to elementary school children, then start teaching a third language in middle school/high school, and have them learn the third one better than if you taught them just one from the beginning.

❝Those who know nothing of foreign languages know nothing of their own.❞

‒Johann Wolfgang von Goethe