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(03-12-2017, 01:07 AM)Galen Wrote: (03-11-2017, 11:53 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: (03-11-2017, 10:54 AM)Odin Wrote: Ah yes, the usual "HYPERINFLATION IS COMING, THE END IS NEAR FOR EVIL STATIST COLLECTIVISM" predictions that never pan out. 
Can you name me one historical fiat currency that hasn't collapsed?
Judging from the silence he hasn't found one yet. Hint Odin: Its because there isn't one.
Once the currency blows up you have a choice go down the road of Venezuala and Zimbabwe or embrace the free market. Even in places like that the informal economy comes in to being and in fact saves people from their own government. Even in benighted places like this the free market improves many individuals lives even while their government tries to stamp it out like the Soviet Union tried.
Precisely why I asked the particular question I asked. I conducted my own investigation--I didn't want to believe myself that fiat currencies inevitably always fail. That isn't to say that they can't be made to work for long periods of time (Colonial Scrip was moderately successful as were United States Notes [but both were side by side with specie]).
Informal economies are perfectly able to take on a "non-money" currency. After WW2 not only was the German money practically worthless but so was the currencies of most other countries occupied by the Axis. For a long time the medium of exchange was cigarettes with a premium on American cigarettes.
Ultimately it seems that the failure of fiat currencies is that they are incredibly easy to abuse. Particularly when you have a political class that wants to kill the population (war is expensive) or buy their votes (welfare is expensive too).
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(03-12-2017, 03:10 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: (03-12-2017, 01:07 AM)Galen Wrote: (03-11-2017, 11:53 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: (03-11-2017, 10:54 AM)Odin Wrote: Ah yes, the usual "HYPERINFLATION IS COMING, THE END IS NEAR FOR EVIL STATIST COLLECTIVISM" predictions that never pan out.
Can you name me one historical fiat currency that hasn't collapsed?
Judging from the silence he hasn't found one yet. Hint Odin: Its because there isn't one.
Once the currency blows up you have a choice go down the road of Venezuala and Zimbabwe or embrace the free market. Even in places like that the informal economy comes in to being and in fact saves people from their own government. Even in benighted places like this the free market improves many individuals lives even while their government tries to stamp it out like the Soviet Union tried.
Precisely why I asked the particular question I asked. I conducted my own investigation--I didn't want to believe myself that fiat currencies inevitably always fail. That isn't to say that they can't be made to work for long periods of time (Colonial Scrip was moderately successful as were United States Notes [but both were side by side with specie]).
The dollar as fiat will last exactly as long as the petrodollar system does and the petrodollar system looks like it is reaching its expiration date. The wars the US has engaged since 2001 have been primarily targeted at nations that are a threat to that system. This is one of the main reasons for Targeting Libya although the French also had other goals there. Iraq made the mistake of selling oil for Euros in the oil for food program. Iran has been selling oil in other currencies for quite some time which explains much but not all of the hostility toward Iran. Russia, with extensive oil reserves, is also a threat to that system.
I do not believe in coincidences.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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(03-12-2017, 04:05 AM)Galen Wrote: (03-12-2017, 03:10 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: (03-12-2017, 01:07 AM)Galen Wrote: (03-11-2017, 11:53 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: (03-11-2017, 10:54 AM)Odin Wrote: Ah yes, the usual "HYPERINFLATION IS COMING, THE END IS NEAR FOR EVIL STATIST COLLECTIVISM" predictions that never pan out.
Can you name me one historical fiat currency that hasn't collapsed?
Judging from the silence he hasn't found one yet. Hint Odin: Its because there isn't one.
Once the currency blows up you have a choice go down the road of Venezuala and Zimbabwe or embrace the free market. Even in places like that the informal economy comes in to being and in fact saves people from their own government. Even in benighted places like this the free market improves many individuals lives even while their government tries to stamp it out like the Soviet Union tried.
Precisely why I asked the particular question I asked. I conducted my own investigation--I didn't want to believe myself that fiat currencies inevitably always fail. That isn't to say that they can't be made to work for long periods of time (Colonial Scrip was moderately successful as were United States Notes [but both were side by side with specie]).
The dollar as fiat will last exactly as long as the petrodollar system does and the petrodollar system looks like it is reaching its expiration date. The wars the US has engaged since 2001 have been primarily targeted at nations that are a threat to that system. This is one of the main reasons for Targeting Libya although the French also had other goals there. Iraq made the mistake of selling oil for Euros in the oil for food program. Iran has been selling oil in other currencies for quite some time which explains much but not all of the hostility toward Iran. Russia, with extensive oil reserves, is also a threat to that system.
I do not believe in coincidences.
Neither do I. Which is why I believe a great deal of the saber rattling toward Russia by a certain political clique is based on oil in some way (perhaps not fully--the Russian spies line is for the Outer Party as it were, and maybe the most intelligent of the Proles). Russia has said in the past that they are willing to sell their oil and gas in a combination of Gold, Dollars, Euro, Yen and RMB as well as Rubles.
In Lybia, Gaddaffi was proposing the introduction of a gold dinar for use among Afircan and Arab states. Naturally a gold dinar would benefit gold rich countries and also destablize the debt structures placed on African states which are denominated in dollars.
Iran has two open deals with India and China receptively to trade Oil in gold, Rupees, RMB and to a lesser extent Euro.
As to why there is still interest in obtaining Euro I strongly suspect that despite the weakness of the EU it largely has to do with the fact that it is the currency Germany uses and Germany maintains a large industrial sector focusing on heavy industry (yes still--makes up around 25% of their economy too--so anyone who tells you the US can't be an industrial power is a liar because the Germans typically make more than American factory workers).
I'd even argue that the Afghan war boils down to oil. The Taliban were all friendly with Bush until they decided they really didn't want a huge pipeline running from Kazakhstan to Karachi straight through the middle of their country (though they would get rent from it).
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(03-12-2017, 04:19 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: Neither do I. Which is why I believe a great deal of the saber rattling toward Russia by a certain political clique is based on oil in some way (perhaps not fully--the Russian spies line is for the Outer Party as it were, and maybe the most intelligent of the Proles). Russia has said in the past that they are willing to sell their oil and gas in a combination of Gold, Dollars, Euro, Yen and RMB as well as Rubles.
This is why I brought up the petrodollar which has its roots in the closing of the gold window in 1971. Without gold backing there would need to be another reason to hold dollars. Nixon made a deal with Saudi Arabia and OPEC in 1974 to only sell oil in dollars. As you can see this had had two primary effects. First, demand for dollars is maintained and so the dollar maintains and expands its dominance in international trade. Second, this has allowed inflation to be exported to the rest of the world and has largely kept consumer price inflation under control.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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In the long run everything "fails", even with precious metals eventually you'll get rulers who debase the currency for short-term reasons, see Rome during the Crisis of The Third Century. All genuine currencies used as currency (as opposed to just units of metal in simple barter) require some sort of faith in the institution issuing the currency that it is really worth that it says it's worth.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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(03-13-2017, 07:50 AM)Odin Wrote: In the long run everything "fails", even with precious metals eventually you'll get rulers who debase the currency for short-term reasons, see Rome during the Crisis of The Third Century. All genuine currencies used as currency (as opposed to just units of metal in simple barter) require some sort of faith in the institution issuing the currency that it is really worth that it says it's worth.
In the case for Rome, people eventually resorted to gold and paid their taxes only in the Silver denarii which ended up being more copper than silver. That being said it is far harder to inflate a coin based currency than it is a paper one. Indeed far more money in the current system is "created from thin air" by the issuance of loans from private banks (via fractional reserve banking) than the fed ever could make. Even Playdude himself admits that the Fed can create money just by changing the figures on a computer spreadsheet. As such I have very little faith in the current system and only use it in so far as it is necessary to fulfill my needs.
This video is long so I won't embed it. I suggest everyone watch it though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh7rdCYCQ_U
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Is this meant to imply that you're leaving? 
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(03-13-2017, 12:49 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Is this meant to imply that you're leaving?
I hope not. I'd miss being told that everything is a plot of the Putin/Russians/Neo-Mongol Empire/<Insert Current Bugbear Here>.
A forum of only rational people would get boring quickly and not be as good for Kek.
Unfortunately there is no Pepe emoji.
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(03-13-2017, 12:43 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Interesting how this forum has evolved.
Now, we have essentially 3 or 4 Alt Right right shit disturbers making most of the posts.
Most others have stepped away, and are not very interested in participating here.
Have fun playing with each other Pepe lovers!
Yes, when Kinser and Galen dominate the forum, it's pretty useless. It will pass I hope.
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(03-13-2017, 07:50 AM)Odin Wrote: In the long run everything "fails", even with precious metals eventually you'll get rulers who debase the currency for short-term reasons, see Rome during the Crisis of The Third Century. All genuine currencies used as currency (as opposed to just units of metal in simple barter) require some sort of faith in the institution issuing the currency that it is really worth that it says it's worth.
Silver and gold are always valuable and I strongly recommend you watch the video that Kinser79 suggested. It sums up everything I ever read about Rome very neatly.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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(03-13-2017, 02:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (03-13-2017, 12:43 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Interesting how this forum has evolved.
Now, we have essentially 3 or 4 Alt Right right shit disturbers making most of the posts.
Most others have stepped away, and are not very interested in participating here.
Have fun playing with each other Pepe lovers!
Yes, when Kinser and Galen dominate the forum, it's pretty useless. It will pass I hope.
That Odd. I think much the same thing when its the Eric the Obtuse show.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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(03-12-2017, 04:05 AM)Galen Wrote: (03-12-2017, 03:10 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: (03-12-2017, 01:07 AM)Galen Wrote: (03-11-2017, 11:53 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: (03-11-2017, 10:54 AM)Odin Wrote: Ah yes, the usual "HYPERINFLATION IS COMING, THE END IS NEAR FOR EVIL STATIST COLLECTIVISM" predictions that never pan out.
Can you name me one historical fiat currency that hasn't collapsed?
Judging from the silence he hasn't found one yet. Hint Odin: Its because there isn't one.
Once the currency blows up you have a choice go down the road of Venezuala and Zimbabwe or embrace the free market. Even in places like that the informal economy comes in to being and in fact saves people from their own government. Even in benighted places like this the free market improves many individuals lives even while their government tries to stamp it out like the Soviet Union tried.
Precisely why I asked the particular question I asked. I conducted my own investigation--I didn't want to believe myself that fiat currencies inevitably always fail. That isn't to say that they can't be made to work for long periods of time (Colonial Scrip was moderately successful as were United States Notes [but both were side by side with specie]).
The dollar as fiat will last exactly as long as the petrodollar system does and the petrodollar system looks like it is reaching its expiration date. The wars the US has engaged since 2001 have been primarily targeted at nations that are a threat to that system. This is one of the main reasons for Targeting Libya although the French also had other goals there. Iraq made the mistake of selling oil for Euros in the oil for food program. Iran has been selling oil in other currencies for quite some time which explains much but not all of the hostility toward Iran. Russia, with extensive oil reserves, is also a threat to that system.
I do not believe in coincidences.
I don't either. Now, it's my hope the petrodollar does indeed crater. Said implosion will crash the imperial project and the neoliberal corporatacy.
---Value Added 
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(03-13-2017, 12:43 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Interesting how this forum has evolved.
Now, we have essentially 3 or 4 Alt Right right shit disturbers making most of the posts.
Most others have stepped away, and are not very interested in participating here.
Have fun playing with each other Pepe lovers!
1. Duuuude, haven't you caught on yet? That's 3 or 4 trolls, silly. Just look what you wrote, "shit disturbers" are [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Shit%20Posting"] shit posters. [/url
TFTT
YHBT
2. Eric and Pbrowera still make many posts.
Pepe?
I, do think you forgot another category. Off my hand, there's a couple of smarasses as well. 
---Value Added
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(03-13-2017, 04:21 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (03-13-2017, 12:43 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Interesting how this forum has evolved.
Now, we have essentially 3 or 4 Alt Right right shit disturbers making most of the posts.
Most others have stepped away, and are not very interested in participating here.
Have fun playing with each other Pepe lovers!
1. Duuuude, haven't you caught on yet? That's 3 or 4 trolls, silly. Just look what you wrote, "shit disturbers" are [url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Shit%20Posting"] shit posters. [/url
TFTT
YHBT
2. Eric and Pbrowera still make many posts.
Pepe?
<snip video>
I, do think you forgot another category. Off my hand, there's a couple of smarasses as well.
1. What is more is these so-called alt-right shit posters are posters who've been on these boards and the old ones for years. I assume he means myself, Galen and That-one-guy...you know the one.  Some of us may have just come back from an extended break (sorry but I was exhausted after the campaign--unlike some people here I actually went out and helped get a man elected Prez-o-dent--they wouldn't send anyone but me and the other black volunteer into the hood for good reasons too <insert rant about Church based house negroes here>).
2. Yes, the village idiot and Eeyore are still both here, and still pumping out posts like crazy. Hell even Odin's still posting regularly even if it is to call everyone he doesn't like Hitler. I start to wonder about my life if I'm not called a Nazi at least once a day.
Pepe.
Or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepe_the_F...od_man.jpg
If the attachment doesn't work.
3. Yes there still are a few smart asses around too. Some will be missed to. POC's cryptic posts are definitely missing from this forum.
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(03-13-2017, 04:10 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (03-12-2017, 04:05 AM)Galen Wrote: The dollar as fiat will last exactly as long as the petrodollar system does and the petrodollar system looks like it is reaching its expiration date. The wars the US has engaged since 2001 have been primarily targeted at nations that are a threat to that system. This is one of the main reasons for Targeting Libya although the French also had other goals there. Iraq made the mistake of selling oil for Euros in the oil for food program. Iran has been selling oil in other currencies for quite some time which explains much but not all of the hostility toward Iran. Russia, with extensive oil reserves, is also a threat to that system.
I do not believe in coincidences.
I don't either. Now, it's my hope the petrodollar does indeed crater. Said implosion will crash the imperial project and the neoliberal corporatacy.
The end of the empire and technocratic government in general and globalism will be the only good things to come out of this fourth turning. In the end it will lay a foundation for a smaller and much less intrusive government which will be good thing because I have no problem with the era of the total state ending. The process is just going to be painful.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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Oligarchs like weak government because it lets them carve out their own fiefdoms and oppress the population without interference. People like Galen are only cheering on their enserfment.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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(03-14-2017, 07:00 AM)Odin Wrote: Oligarchs like weak government because it lets them carve out their own fiefdoms and oppress the population without interference. People like Galen are only cheering on their enserfment.
Oligarchs like strong government because it lets them carve out their own fiefdoms and oppress the population without interference. People like Odin are only cheering on their own enserfment.
There, fixed it for you.
Seriously consider for a moment that government is a necessary evil. It might be prudent there for that we have enough government that my neighbor can neither pick my pocket nor break my leg, but not so much where the government is picking my pocket and breaking my leg.
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(03-14-2017, 10:15 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: (03-14-2017, 07:00 AM)Odin Wrote: Oligarchs like weak government because it lets them carve out their own fiefdoms and oppress the population without interference. People like Galen are only cheering on their enserfment.
Oligarchs like strong government because it lets them carve out their own fiefdoms and oppress the population without interference. People like Odin are only cheering on their own enserfment.
There, fixed it for you.
Seriously consider for a moment that government is a necessary evil. It might be prudent there for that we have enough government that my neighbor can neither pick my pocket nor break my leg, but not so much where the government is picking my pocket and breaking my leg.
Oligarchical opposition to strong government is a very common theme throughout history in many times and many places.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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(03-14-2017, 05:29 PM)Odin Wrote: (03-14-2017, 10:15 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: (03-14-2017, 07:00 AM)Odin Wrote: Oligarchs like weak government because it lets them carve out their own fiefdoms and oppress the population without interference. People like Galen are only cheering on their enserfment.
Oligarchs like strong government because it lets them carve out their own fiefdoms and oppress the population without interference. People like Odin are only cheering on their own enserfment.
There, fixed it for you.
Seriously consider for a moment that government is a necessary evil. It might be prudent there for that we have enough government that my neighbor can neither pick my pocket nor break my leg, but not so much where the government is picking my pocket and breaking my leg.
Oligarchical opposition to strong government is a very common theme throughout history in many times and many places.
So is fear of tyrannical government. I don't think either analogy is conclusive.
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03-14-2017, 05:36 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2017, 05:54 PM by Eric the Green.)
(03-14-2017, 05:32 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: (03-14-2017, 05:29 PM)Odin Wrote: (03-14-2017, 10:15 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: (03-14-2017, 07:00 AM)Odin Wrote: Oligarchs like weak government because it lets them carve out their own fiefdoms and oppress the population without interference. People like Galen are only cheering on their enserfment.
Oligarchs like strong government because it lets them carve out their own fiefdoms and oppress the population without interference. People like Odin are only cheering on their own enserfment.
There, fixed it for you.
Seriously consider for a moment that government is a necessary evil. It might be prudent there for that we have enough government that my neighbor can neither pick my pocket nor break my leg, but not so much where the government is picking my pocket and breaking my leg.
Oligarchical opposition to strong government is a very common theme throughout history in many times and many places.
So is fear of tyrannical government. I don't think either analogy is conclusive.
What we have in the USA is oligarchical opposition to strong government. The oligarchs have been very successful for the last 40 years (as of 2020) convincing people that NOT opposing their greedy grasp of power is supporting "freedom." It's doublespeak. They alone have any actual reason to oppose strong government in the USA, because it reduces their power and wealth. Actually, liberal policies in the USA are better for everyone, even including the oligarchs. A few of them even realize this fact.
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