Are Some Haters Of Government Sensing The Looming Regeneracy?

[Eric the Green]

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I’m used to taking the label of ‘Whig’.  I have my arrow of progress.  I favor democracy, human rights and equality.  I see what advancing technology has done for us, but look to change society to adapt to the new environment technology gives us.  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.  There is a pride in being an American, and a Whig.  America was indeed great, until about Nixon’s time when the optimism and energy that created the greatness burned out.

But in doing all that, we stepped on people, we and similar European cultures.  There were black slaves.  There were Native Americans taken from the woods and planted in the deserts.  There were Arabs living on top of a lot of oil, and the West grew rich and powerful on that oil, while the locals grew to hate us.

I find it awfully easy to understand any hatred and violence aimed in our direction.  We took so much.

I also hear slogans like ‘America First’.  We seized a prominent place in the world and are striving to keep it.  I see people waving Nazi and Confederate flags, expressing pride in the horrific past.  And those who were down, and make no mistake many of them are still down, should not be helped.  If one tries in any way to make amends for an unspeakable past, one is accused of betraying one’s race.  

I am not pleased with this.  As proud as I am of how Jefferson’s self evident truths brought something truly new out of the tyranny of the Agricultural Age, we got there walking all over people.  We are striving still to walk over them more.

Too many are excessively fond of our privileged place in the world, have become totally accustomed to this place, and will apply all sorts of upside down double think to excuse their efforts to maintain their privileged place.

I find it all to easy to understand the hate coming from the cultures exploited, still exploited.  It’s not harder to understand those wallowing in the wealth and the privilege.  They are so used to it.  Their arrogant belief in their exalted place in the world is deeply ingrained, unquestionable.  Yes, it’s values locked in.  Folks can look in their fancy gilt mirrors and not see themselves.

There’s a fuse burning.  My instinct is to throw water on it, not gasoline.  Being into turning theory, that’s probably the wrong answer.  There will likely need to be an explosion.

But there is that niggling arrow of progress.  Come the crisis, when the problems become too deep to be ignored, the solutions tend towards working for the common good, towards equality, towards democracy, towards inclusiveness.  I accuse others often enough of being values locked.  Me too.  I have that silly stubborn faith in Jefferson’s self evident truths.  When the crisis comes, I remain dubious that shutting the doors so one’s own cultural group can keep its privileged place in the world will be the answer.

I'm in agreement. I found myself wanting to quote Jefferson today in response to a "classical liberal." (not kinser btw). So I will. "We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted....

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted...

http://www.ushistory.org/DECLARATION/document/

Now, some of our neo-liberal, classical liberal friends want to say that we don't need governments to protect and secure our rights to life. It's OK to let big business bosses ruin our land, water and air. It's OK to "reduce the size of government" by shutting down the EPA; it doesn't matter if others' right to life and happiness are denied. This callous disregard for the rights of others is called "liberty," so we don't need government instituted to protect the rights of these others. They want the liberty to infringe on others' liberty, in the name of liberty.

They claim that "the common good" infringes on individual liberty; that they don't want to contribute to the common good of society, because this costs them some tax money. They are not interested in "equality," because they'd rather look upon others as less deserving of our priviledges than we are, and that offering opportunity for equality infringes on the rights of the powerful.

No, I am not pleased with this double-speak either. And I think an explosion is building.

[Kinser79]

(03-17-2017, 02:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 11:44 PM)TKinser79 Wrote: If I may interject here in your lamenting.  Perhaps a fresh perspective is necessary, and I'm the guy to provide it.

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.

Actually no.  While I have no personal experience with the Great Depression I garuntee you that it was not the peak of American Greatness.  As for the Borrow and Spend Liberalism of the Regan/Bush I and Bush II eras were not the peak of American greatness either.

I think he was referring to the post Depression/World War II era (FDR to Carter). Tax and Spend Liberalism that I think he was actually referring to ended with Reagan. I guess the government could no longer afford to absorb the losses that were carried forward from the Vietnam and Korean Wars, the losses associated with the the recession that followed Vietnam, all the costs associated with establishing and maintaining our new position as a world leader and the costs associated with all the new social programs that were added by LBJ's Great Society.

Big quibble here.  Bob used the phrase "Borrow and Spend" not tax and spend.  Reagan did cut taxes but he kept spending the same, when he should have slashed spending.  Reagan, Bush I and Bush II ran up the debt (granted no near as much as Obama did) by either cutting or keeping taxes the same while continuing to spend.

Honestly the government needs to slash spending.  The new Budget Blueprint is a start...I think it should go further there's whole departments I want gutted but its a start.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-17-2017, 02:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 11:44 PM)TKinser79 Wrote: If I may interject here in your lamenting.  Perhaps a fresh perspective is necessary, and I'm the guy to provide it.

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.

Actually no.  While I have no personal experience with the Great Depression I garuntee you that it was not the peak of American Greatness.  As for the Borrow and Spend Liberalism of the Regan/Bush I and Bush II eras were not the peak of American greatness either.

I think he was referring to the post Depression/World War II era (FDR to Carter). Tax and Spend Liberalism that I think he was actually referring to ended with Reagan. I guess the government could no longer afford to absorb the losses that were carried forward from the Vietnam and Korean Wars, the losses associated with the the recession that followed Vietnam, all the costs associated with establishing and maintaining our new position as a world leader and the costs associated with all the new social programs that were added by LBJ's Great Society.

Correct.  I associate the end of our period of optimism, energy and problem solving with Carter's National Malaise, with the Fall of Saigon, Watergate, the oil crisis and hostage crisis.  We had tried to do too much for too long, and wore out even the GIs.  Reagan's borrow and spend trickle down and 'the government is not the answer, the government is the problem' meme replaced the energetic problem solving approach with the tax cut and stop solving domestic problems approach that Trump is still pushing.

It was bound to happen.  The GI's were excessively energetic, attacked problems aggressively, were willing to accept heavy taxation to get a lot of stuff done.  It was time for an unravelling, a time when the willingness to sacrifice for the common good was going to be replaced by selfishness.  The GIs were the Greatest Generation, and the younger generations just plain haven't begun to match their pace and energy.  The Boomers started out with some of the crazy energy of that time, but lost it with Watergate and the rest of the National Malaise.

But the grand funk has got to end someday.  I can sympathize with the notion of lit fuses, crises and the need for a regeneracy.

I do have problems with the attitude of needing to break eggs to achieve greatness.  They aren't eggs.  They're people.  Since Reagan and the Malaise the notion of helping people is exceedingly out of fashion.  Still, among the conservatives, the spirit of the time seems to echo the 'Whack a Mole' game.  If you see an egg, smash it.  Health care is one place where the unravelling attitude surfaces.  Make things great for the healthy and wealthy and the heck with the poor and the sick.  It's the Reagan pattern of cutting taxes and domestic services continued.

Come the crisis, it's time to come together and sacrifice for the common good.  Those in privileged positions generally don't do so good when the crisis comes to a head.  Yes, it's time for a regeneracy.  Regeneracies generally aren't famous for selfishness and upholding privilege.

[SomeGuy]

You actually served in the military, Alphabet?

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-17-2017, 04:24 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 02:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 11:44 PM)TKinser79 Wrote: If I may interject here in your lamenting.  Perhaps a fresh perspective is necessary, and I'm the guy to provide it.

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.

Actually no.  While I have no personal experience with the Great Depression I garuntee you that it was not the peak of American Greatness.  As for the Borrow and Spend Liberalism of the Regan/Bush I and Bush II eras were not the peak of American greatness either.

I think he was referring to the post Depression/World War II era (FDR to Carter). Tax and Spend Liberalism that I think he was actually referring to ended with Reagan. I guess the government could no longer afford to absorb the losses that were carried forward from the Vietnam and Korean Wars, the losses associated with the the recession that followed Vietnam, all the costs associated with establishing and maintaining our new position as a world leader and the costs associated with all the new social programs that were added by LBJ's Great Society.

Big quibble here.  Bob used the phrase "Borrow and Spend" not tax and spend.  Reagan did cut taxes but he kept spending the same, when he should have slashed spending.  Reagan, Bush I and Bush II ran up the debt (granted no near as much as Obama did) by either cutting or keeping taxes the same while continuing to spend.

Honestly the government needs to slash spending.  The new Budget Blueprint is a start...I think it should go further there's whole departments I want gutted but its a start.

You are correct.  I blew it.  FDR through JFK would be tax and spend.  Reagan, Bush Bush would be borrow and spend.

I'm more inclined to tax more than spend less.  We've been cutting taxes and services since the unravelling.  The younger generations just aren't into paying any price, bearing any burden and meeting any hardship as the GIs were, as everybody was before the National Malaise struck home.  It's all selfishness and privilege to them.

[beechnut79]

(03-17-2017, 02:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 11:44 PM)TKinser79 Wrote: If I may interject here in your lamenting.  Perhaps a fresh perspective is necessary, and I'm the guy to provide it.

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.

Actually no.  While I have no personal experience with the Great Depression I garuntee you that it was not the peak of American Greatness.  As for the Borrow and Spend Liberalism of the Regan/Bush I and Bush II eras were not the peak of American greatness either.

I think he was referring to the post Depression/World War II era (FDR to Carter). Tax and Spend Liberalism that I think he was actually referring to ended with Reagan. I guess the government could no longer afford to absorb the losses that were carried forward from the Vietnam and Korean Wars, the losses associated with the the recession that followed Vietnam, all the costs associated with establishing and maintaining our new position as a world leader and the costs associated with all the new social programs that were added by LBJ's Great Society.

I believe that many are lamenting because the post WWII era you mention was a time of remarkable stability when, if you got a good job in a good company and did everything you were supposed to do, you could be set for life. My dad was the typical corporate lifer of that time. But, not only economically but also emotionally, we are at a different place now. While it is true that today's corporations don't want to invest in workers for many years, the workers themselves are constantly looking for that better mousetrap. In this case the current lack of security lies at the feet of both sides of the employer/employee equation. Yet in many ways the rules of the economy have not caught up with the reality of the present time frame. When the crisis is finally sorted out we need to ensure that the energy will be more hopeful, as we acknowledge any shortcomings, which may have impeded previous efforts towards progress.  Of course, I have often considered "progress" to be perhaps the most misued word in the English language. Is it really progress when we lose indpendently run businesses to the all-too powerful large corporations, as one example?

[beechnut79]

(03-17-2017, 02:39 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I’m used to taking the label of ‘Whig’.  I have my arrow of progress.  I favor democracy, human rights and equality.  I see what advancing technology has done for us, but look to change society to adapt to the new environment technology gives us.  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.  There is a pride in being an American, and a Whig.  America was indeed great, until about Nixon’s time when the optimism and energy that created the greatness burned out.

But in doing all that, we stepped on people, we and similar European cultures.  There were black slaves.  There were Native Americans taken from the woods and planted in the deserts.  There were Arabs living on top of a lot of oil, and the West grew rich and powerful on that oil, while the locals grew to hate us.

I find it awfully easy to understand any hatred and violence aimed in our direction.  We took so much.

I also hear slogans like ‘America First’.  We seized a prominent place in the world and are striving to keep it.  I see people waving Nazi and Confederate flags, expressing pride in the horrific past.  And those who were down, and make no mistake many of them are still down, should not be helped.  If one tries in any way to make amends for an unspeakable past, one is accused of betraying one’s race.  

I am not pleased with this.  As proud as I am of how Jefferson’s self evident truths brought something truly new out of the tyranny of the Agricultural Age, we got there walking all over people.  We are striving still to walk over them more.

Too many are excessively fond of our privileged place in the world, have become totally accustomed to this place, and will apply all sorts of upside down double think to excuse their efforts to maintain their privileged place.

I find it all to easy to understand the hate coming from the cultures exploited, still exploited.  It’s not harder to understand those wallowing in the wealth and the privilege.  They are so used to it.  Their arrogant belief in their exalted place in the world is deeply ingrained, unquestionable.  Yes, it’s values locked in.  Folks can look in their fancy gilt mirrors and not see themselves.

There’s a fuse burning.  My instinct is to throw water on it, not gasoline.  Being into turning theory, that’s probably the wrong answer.  There will likely need to be an explosion.

But there is that niggling arrow of progress.  Come the crisis, when the problems become too deep to be ignored, the solutions tend towards working for the common good, towards equality, towards democracy, towards inclusiveness.  I accuse others often enough of being values locked.  Me too.  I have that silly stubborn faith in Jefferson’s self evident truths.  When the crisis comes, I remain dubious that shutting the doors so one’s own cultural group can keep its privileged place in the world will be the answer.

I'm in agreement. I found myself wanting to quote Jefferson today in response to a "classical liberal." (not kinser btw). So I will. "We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted....

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted...

http://www.ushistory.org/DECLARATION/document/

Now, some of our neo-liberal, classical liberal friends want to say that we don't need governments to protect and secure our rights to life. It's OK to let big business bosses ruin our land, water and air. It's OK to "reduce the size of government" by shutting down the EPA; it doesn't matter if others' right to life and happiness are denied. This callous disregard for the rights of others is called "liberty," so we don't need government instituted to protect the rights of these others. They want the liberty to infringe on others' liberty, in the name of liberty.

They claim that "the common good" infringes on individual liberty; that they don't want to contribute to the common good of society, because this costs them some tax money. They are not interested in "equality," because they'd rather look upon others as less deserving of our priviledges than we are, and that offering opportunity for equality infringes on the rights of the powerful.

No, I am not pleased with this double-speak either. And I think an explosion is building.

Yes, the "common good" often DOES infringe on individual liberty, such as when the power of eminent domain is used to wipe away long-standing homes and businesses for totally private gain. Have long believed this practice should be outlawed but was totally under the radar screen until the Kelo case just a few years back was brought to light in the memoir of a pink house. The Institute for Justice is a legal organization that specializes in challenging eminent domain abuse and has won several cases. Before it was virtually impossible to fight this.

[beechnut79]

(03-17-2017, 04:24 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 02:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 11:44 PM)TKinser79 Wrote: If I may interject here in your lamenting.  Perhaps a fresh perspective is necessary, and I'm the guy to provide it.

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.

Actually no.  While I have no personal experience with the Great Depression I garuntee you that it was not the peak of American Greatness.  As for the Borrow and Spend Liberalism of the Regan/Bush I and Bush II eras were not the peak of American greatness either.

I think he was referring to the post Depression/World War II era (FDR to Carter). Tax and Spend Liberalism that I think he was actually referring to ended with Reagan. I guess the government could no longer afford to absorb the losses that were carried forward from the Vietnam and Korean Wars, the losses associated with the the recession that followed Vietnam, all the costs associated with establishing and maintaining our new position as a world leader and the costs associated with all the new social programs that were added by LBJ's Great Society.

Big quibble here.  Bob used the phrase "Borrow and Spend" not tax and spend.  Reagan did cut taxes but he kept spending the same, when he should have slashed spending.  Reagan, Bush I and Bush II ran up the debt (granted no near as much as Obama did) by either cutting or keeping taxes the same while continuing to spend.

Honestly the government needs to slash spending.  The new Budget Blueprint is a start...I think it should go further there's whole departments I want gutted but its a start.

Which departments would you gut?

[beechnut79]

(03-17-2017, 10:00 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 02:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 11:44 PM)TKinser79 Wrote: If I may interject here in your lamenting.  Perhaps a fresh perspective is necessary, and I'm the guy to provide it.

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.

Actually no.  While I have no personal experience with the Great Depression I garuntee you that it was not the peak of American Greatness.  As for the Borrow and Spend Liberalism of the Regan/Bush I and Bush II eras were not the peak of American greatness either.

I think he was referring to the post Depression/World War II era (FDR to Carter). Tax and Spend Liberalism that I think he was actually referring to ended with Reagan. I guess the government could no longer afford to absorb the losses that were carried forward from the Vietnam and Korean Wars, the losses associated with the the recession that followed Vietnam, all the costs associated with establishing and maintaining our new position as a world leader and the costs associated with all the new social programs that were added by LBJ's Great Society.

Correct.  I associate the end of our period of optimism, energy and problem solving with Carter's National Malaise, with the Fall of Saigon, Watergate, the oil crisis and hostage crisis.  We had tried to do too much for too long, and wore out even the GIs.  Reagan's borrow and spend trickle down and 'the government is not the answer, the government is the problem' meme replaced the energetic problem solving approach with the tax cut and stop solving domestic problems approach that Trump is still pushing.

It was bound to happen.  The GI's were excessively energetic, attacked problems aggressively, were willing to accept heavy taxation to get a lot of stuff done.  It was time for an unravelling, a time when the willingness to sacrifice for the common good was going to be replaced by selfishness.  The GIs were the Greatest Generation, and the younger generations just plain haven't begun to match their pace and energy.  The Boomers started out with some of the crazy energy of that time, but lost it with Watergate and the rest of the National Malaise.

But the grand funk has got to end someday.  I can sympathize with the notion of lit fuses, crises and the need for a regeneracy.

I do have problems with the attitude of needing to break eggs to achieve greatness.  They aren't eggs.  They're people.  Since Reagan and the Malaise the notion of helping people is exceedingly out of fashion.  Still, among the conservatives, the spirit of the time seems to echo the 'Whack a Mole' game.  If you see an egg, smash it.  Health care is one place where the unravelling attitude surfaces.  Make things great for the healthy and wealthy and the heck with the poor and the sick.  It's the Reagan pattern of cutting taxes and domestic services continued.

Come the crisis, it's time to come together and sacrifice for the common good.  Those in privileged positions generally don't do so good when the crisis comes to a head.  Yes, it's time for a regeneracy.  Regeneracies generally aren't famous for selfishness and upholding privilege.

On this day do we celebrate, at least in some way, the "shaming of the green"?

[beechnut79]

(03-17-2017, 10:00 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 02:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 11:44 PM)TKinser79 Wrote: If I may interject here in your lamenting.  Perhaps a fresh perspective is necessary, and I'm the guy to provide it.

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.

Actually no.  While I have no personal experience with the Great Depression I garuntee you that it was not the peak of American Greatness.  As for the Borrow and Spend Liberalism of the Regan/Bush I and Bush II eras were not the peak of American greatness either.

I think he was referring to the post Depression/World War II era (FDR to Carter). Tax and Spend Liberalism that I think he was actually referring to ended with Reagan. I guess the government could no longer afford to absorb the losses that were carried forward from the Vietnam and Korean Wars, the losses associated with the the recession that followed Vietnam, all the costs associated with establishing and maintaining our new position as a world leader and the costs associated with all the new social programs that were added by LBJ's Great Society.

Correct.  I associate the end of our period of optimism, energy and problem solving with Carter's National Malaise, with the Fall of Saigon, Watergate, the oil crisis and hostage crisis.  We had tried to do too much for too long, and wore out even the GIs.  Reagan's borrow and spend trickle down and 'the government is not the answer, the government is the problem' meme replaced the energetic problem solving approach with the tax cut and stop solving domestic problems approach that Trump is still pushing.

It was bound to happen.  The GI's were excessively energetic, attacked problems aggressively, were willing to accept heavy taxation to get a lot of stuff done.  It was time for an unravelling, a time when the willingness to sacrifice for the common good was going to be replaced by selfishness.  The GIs were the Greatest Generation, and the younger generations just plain haven't begun to match their pace and energy.  The Boomers started out with some of the crazy energy of that time, but lost it with Watergate and the rest of the National Malaise.

But the grand funk has got to end someday.  I can sympathize with the notion of lit fuses, crises and the need for a regeneracy.

I do have problems with the attitude of needing to break eggs to achieve greatness.  They aren't eggs.  They're people.  Since Reagan and the Malaise the notion of helping people is exceedingly out of fashion.  Still, among the conservatives, the spirit of the time seems to echo the 'Whack a Mole' game.  If you see an egg, smash it.  Health care is one place where the unravelling attitude surfaces.  Make things great for the healthy and wealthy and the heck with the poor and the sick.  It's the Reagan pattern of cutting taxes and domestic services continued.

Come the crisis, it's time to come together and sacrifice for the common good.  Those in privileged positions generally don't do so good when the crisis comes to a head.  Yes, it's time for a regeneracy.  Regeneracies generally aren't famous for selfishness and upholding privilege.

If you were to ask me, I would tell you that the Grand Funk (with all apologies to the classic rock band) aka National Malaise is still very much with us and even worse than ever under the Carter years. At least then people went out and kicked up their heels at the discos, where today you can hardly find a dance club even in a large metro region. This despite the intense popularity of the "Dancing with the Stars" TV show.

On the economic policy in effect since Reagan, an occasion we observe at the end of every October tells the whole story.

[beechnut79]

(03-17-2017, 10:47 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 02:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 11:44 PM)TKinser79 Wrote: If I may interject here in your lamenting.  Perhaps a fresh perspective is necessary, and I'm the guy to provide it.

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.

Actually no.  While I have no personal experience with the Great Depression I garuntee you that it was not the peak of American Greatness.  As for the Borrow and Spend Liberalism of the Regan/Bush I and Bush II eras were not the peak of American greatness either.

I think he was referring to the post Depression/World War II era (FDR to Carter). Tax and Spend Liberalism that I think he was actually referring to ended with Reagan. I guess the government could no longer afford to absorb the losses that were carried forward from the Vietnam and Korean Wars, the losses associated with the the recession that followed Vietnam, all the costs associated with establishing and maintaining our new position as a world leader and the costs associated with all the new social programs that were added by LBJ's Great Society.

And in the midst of that period, we had Truman, Eisenhower and JFK. The High. The 1T!!!

Hurrah for 1Ts!!!!!

But that period also did have its dark sides, including Joe McCarthy and Jim Crow.

[beechnut79]

(03-17-2017, 11:15 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 04:24 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 02:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 11:44 PM)TKinser79 Wrote: If I may interject here in your lamenting.  Perhaps a fresh perspective is necessary, and I'm the guy to provide it.

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.

Actually no.  While I have no personal experience with the Great Depression I garuntee you that it was not the peak of American Greatness.  As for the Borrow and Spend Liberalism of the Regan/Bush I and Bush II eras were not the peak of American greatness either.

I think he was referring to the post Depression/World War II era (FDR to Carter). Tax and Spend Liberalism that I think he was actually referring to ended with Reagan. I guess the government could no longer afford to absorb the losses that were carried forward from the Vietnam and Korean Wars, the losses associated with the the recession that followed Vietnam, all the costs associated with establishing and maintaining our new position as a world leader and the costs associated with all the new social programs that were added by LBJ's Great Society.

Big quibble here.  Bob used the phrase "Borrow and Spend" not tax and spend.  Reagan did cut taxes but he kept spending the same, when he should have slashed spending.  Reagan, Bush I and Bush II ran up the debt (granted no near as much as Obama did) by either cutting or keeping taxes the same while continuing to spend.

Honestly the government needs to slash spending.  The new Budget Blueprint is a start...I think it should go further there's whole departments I want gutted but its a start.

You are correct.  I blew it.  FDR through JFK would be tax and spend.  Reagan, Bush Bush would be borrow and spend.

I'm more inclined to tax more than spend less.  We've been cutting taxes and services since the unravelling.  The younger generations just aren't into paying any price, bearing any burden and meeting any hardship as the GIs were, as everybody was before the National Malaise struck home.  It's all selfishness and privilege to them.

Which means that if we get to Great Depression II, the current society would have a far more difficult time dealing with it that those around at the time of the first one were. More people jumping out of windows, no doubt. Expectations of the good life have ratched so far upward, from a chicken in every pot to multiple smartphones and HD TVs in every home.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-17-2017, 11:33 AM)beechnut79 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 10:47 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 02:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 11:44 PM)TKinser79 Wrote: If I may interject here in your lamenting.  Perhaps a fresh perspective is necessary, and I'm the guy to provide it.

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.

Actually no.  While I have no personal experience with the Great Depression I garuntee you that it was not the peak of American Greatness.  As for the Borrow and Spend Liberalism of the Regan/Bush I and Bush II eras were not the peak of American greatness either.

I think he was referring to the post Depression/World War II era (FDR to Carter). Tax and Spend Liberalism that I think he was actually referring to ended with Reagan. I guess the government could no longer afford to absorb the losses that were carried forward from the Vietnam and Korean Wars, the losses associated with the the recession that followed Vietnam, all the costs associated with establishing and maintaining our new position as a world leader and the costs associated with all the new social programs that were added by LBJ's Great Society.

And in the midst of that period, we had Truman, Eisenhower and JFK. The High. The 1T!!!

Hurrah for 1Ts!!!!!

But that period also did have its dark sides, including Joe McCarthy and Jim Crow.

I don't think any era has lacked dark sides. Solve one set of problems, and the next biggest problems step to the foreground. Yes, Joe McCarthy and Jim Crow were deplorable. They also got quashed hard. Problems got attacked in those days. Today... we're too divided. Problems fester.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-17-2017, 11:32 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: If you were to ask me, I would tell you that the Grand Funk (with all apologies to the classic rock band) aka National Malaise is still very much with us and even worse than ever under the Carter years. At least then people went out and kicked up their heels at the discos, where today you can hardly find a dance club even in a large metro region. This despite the intense popularity of the "Dancing with the Stars" TV show.

Yep. If anything, the National Malaise has become the new normal. The feeling that we can't get anything done has become a conviction that we shouldn't try to get anything done.

[pbrower2a]

(03-17-2017, 01:14 AM)ssic-Xer Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I’m used to taking the label of ‘Whig’.  I have my arrow of progress.  I favor democracy, human rights and equality.  I see what advancing technology has done for us, but look to change society to adapt to the new environment technology gives us.  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.  There is a pride in being an American, and a Whig.  America was indeed great, until about Nixon’s time when the optimism and energy that created the greatness burned out.

But in doing all that, we stepped on people, we and similar European cultures.  There were black slaves.  There were Native Americans taken from the woods and planted in the deserts.  There were Arabs living on top of a lot of oil, and the West grew rich and powerful on that oil, while the locals grew to hate us.

I find it awfully easy to understand any hatred and violence aimed in our direction.  We took so much.

I also hear slogans like ‘America First’.  We seized a prominent place in the world and are striving to keep it.  I see people waving Nazi and Confederate flags, expressing pride in the horrific past.  And those who were down, and make no mistake many of them are still down, should not be helped.  If one tries in any way to make amends for an unspeakable past, one is accused of betraying one’s race.  

I am not pleased with this.  As proud as I am of how Jefferson’s self evident truths brought something truly new out of the tyranny of the Agricultural Age, we got there walking all over people.  We are striving still to walk over them more.

Too many are excessively fond of our privileged place in the world, have become totally accustomed to this place, and will apply all sorts of upside down double think to excuse their efforts to maintain their privileged place.

I find it all to easy to understand the hate coming from the cultures exploited, still exploited.  It’s not harder to understand those wallowing in the wealth and the privilege.  They are so used to it.  Their arrogant belief in their exalted place in the world is deeply ingrained, unquestionable.  Yes, it’s values locked in.  Folks can look in their fancy gilt mirrors and not see themselves.

There’s a fuse burning.  My instinct is to throw water on it, not gasoline.  Being into turning theory, that’s probably the wrong answer.  There will likely need to be an explosion.

But there is that niggling arrow of progress.  Come the crisis, when the problems become too deep to be ignored, the solutions tend towards working for the common good, towards equality, towards democracy, towards inclusiveness.  I accuse others often enough of being values locked.  Me too.  I have that silly stubborn faith in Jefferson’s self evident truths.  When the crisis comes, I remain dubious that shutting the doors so one’s own cultural group can keep its privileged place in the world will be the answer.

I've yet to see a liberal Democrat who'd I'd be willing to place my life on line or sacrifice something of great personal value to save. I will also add, I've yet to see a liberal Democrat who'd I trust with my life or anything great of personal value or anything important to me.

I think we liberal democrats want people to have more tangible and intangible things (like freedom, equity, and prosperity) worthy of saving. Consider that liberalism, the antithesis of fascism, prevailed in World War II over fascism.  Consider that the liberal side won in the Civil War. The US and Britain won because they didn't have to wage war against partisan opposition even in Italy.

Contrast some other realities. Part of the cause of the collapse of the Confederacy was that slaves voted with their feet to go to the Union lines. Go back further and recognize that the subjected peoples of the Roman Empire saw the Germanic tribes invading Rome as liberators. Tell slaves that they can get more than their next meal -- maybe the land that they work and of course some real freedom -- and they will tell the barbarian invaders where their masters' treasure is hidden and where the princess-like daughters of their masters are hiding.

Quote:I say screw the Democrats and screw them big time. You better be smart enough to realize if we end up fighting with groups of ISIS here because of liberal politics, the Democratic party and all its stupidity will come to an abrupt end.

There is nothing liberal or democratic about ISIS. If anything, I can't see anything particularly hostile to Jeffersonian democracy in Islam. If anything, Jeffersonian democracy is the most obvious enemy of the fascistic cruelty of ISIS. But even at that -- ISIS is dying in Iraq. Thank you, President Obama, for letting the CIA and American military advisers do what it they do best. I am predicting that al-Baghdadi, leader of ISIS who slithered out of Mosul, will soon have a rope slithering around his neck fairly soon.

I do not expect the arrogant, selfish, dictatorial President Trump to do so well.  

Quote:How much are your political values worth to you, blues in general and everyone else here? Blue values, as I've seen them, ain't worth a shit to me or anyone else who isn't emotionally tied to them. I understand that blues place a ton of value on themselves and their beliefs and whatever values that they claim to represent for reasons that I don't understand or relate too.

Rationality? Freedom? Governmental integrity? Fairness?

Quote:I assume it has something to do with their degree's* or job titles or possibly spending too much time listening/taking in the beliefs of their loving blue parents or their supportive blue peers. How many Americans want to live in a liberal blue can't do/say (ugly word redacted) culture controlled by PC labeling?

...as if the Right were free of its own shibboleths!

Quote:Can you bitch about anything other than conservatives/reds/Republicans/libertarians in Blue America?

The problem is that your side offers so much to despise.

Quote:Can you bitch about a nasty group of blacks who reside in Blue America?

I think we are very color-blind to nastiness when it comes to street crime, corruption, etc. Bloods. Crips, MS-13 (of course they are Hispanic and not black) can get lost. They are not like the non-white parts of the middle class that most of us recognize as equals.

Quote:Can you bitch about having to (sic) many illegal aliens to support in Blue America?

The illegal aliens take care of themselves. Of course I want their kids in school even if they are illegal aliens so that if they avoid getting caught by "Migra" they can be economic plueses to America. So how does an illegal alien of Latin origin get away with illegal status?

1. Work conscientiously.
2. Learn good English. That's the best disguise of illegal status possible.
3. Stay clear of crime.
4. Assimilate into American life, which can be the large Hispanic population wherever one lives.

Quote:Can you openly bitch about anything liberal without concerns about themselves? Can you protest against stupid liberal policies in Blue America?

For at least the next 21-and-a-fraction months we can expect plenty to complain about with the most illiberal time in American history for decades.

Quote:We can bitch (about) anything and anyone or any group in Red America.

But you don't see wrong in your leaders! Maybe it is too bad that Jerry Falwell is no more, because I can imagine him condemning the crotch-grabbing that Donald Trump bragged about and telling him to drop out of the Presidential race. When your conservatives start to complain about cronyism and corruption you tell them to leave.

We Blues are becoming more conservative because we are attracting people who prefer their conservatism with a human face and with some integrity. We are ready to become a Big Tent because some of us have conservative values on educational content, culture, fiscal integrity, crime, drugs, and sex.  

Quote:It doesn't matter who you are in Red America, Red Americans can bitch about you in public and in private (face to face). Reds don't care as much about race, class or gender as the blues seem too. No free passes in Red America. We stuck a towel in the mouths of the Evangelical's*. As it turned out, the Republican voters aren't as heavily into religion as the liberal's* seemed to believe.

So why do non-white, non-Anglo, non-Christian, and non-straight members of the middle class vote so heavily Democratic?

If anything the Evangelicals should have stuck a towel in the mouth of Donald Trump when he bragged "I grabbed them by their..."

Authoritarian rightists are extremely lenient toward the misconduct of political figures that they supported or who have made appeals in recent political campaigns. We liberals could ditch Mel Reynolds, Dan Rostenkowski, William Jefferson, and Rod Blagojevich fast even if such meant a loss of a Congressional seat or a State House. 

*Please avoid the infamous grocer's apostrophe (Banana's 50c a pound). An apostrophe is either the signal of contraction, a possessive noun, or dropped letters, as in

'Tis St. Patrick's Day, the day for the wearin' of the green

[pbrower2a]

(03-17-2017, 11:35 AM)beechnut79 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 11:15 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 04:24 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 02:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 11:44 PM)TKinser79 Wrote: If I may interject here in your lamenting.  Perhaps a fresh perspective is necessary, and I'm the guy to provide it.


Actually no.  While I have no personal experience with the Great Depression I garuntee you that it was not the peak of American Greatness.  As for the Borrow and Spend Liberalism of the Regan/Bush I and Bush II eras were not the peak of American greatness either.

I think he was referring to the post Depression/World War II era (FDR to Carter). Tax and Spend Liberalism that I think he was actually referring to ended with Reagan. I guess the government could no longer afford to absorb the losses that were carried forward from the Vietnam and Korean Wars, the losses associated with the the recession that followed Vietnam, all the costs associated with establishing and maintaining our new position as a world leader and the costs associated with all the new social programs that were added by LBJ's Great Society.

Big quibble here.  Bob used the phrase "Borrow and Spend" not tax and spend.  Reagan did cut taxes but he kept spending the same, when he should have slashed spending.  Reagan, Bush I and Bush II ran up the debt (granted no near as much as Obama did) by either cutting or keeping taxes the same while continuing to spend.

Honestly the government needs to slash spending.  The new Budget Blueprint is a start...I think it should go further there's whole departments I want gutted but its a start.

You are correct.  I blew it.  FDR through JFK would be tax and spend.  Reagan, Bush Bush would be borrow and spend.

I'm more inclined to tax more than spend less.  We've been cutting taxes and services since the unravelling.  The younger generations just aren't into paying any price, bearing any burden and meeting any hardship as the GIs were, as everybody was before the National Malaise struck home.  It's all selfishness and privilege to them.

Which means that if we get to Great Depression II, the current society would have a far more difficult time dealing with it that those around at the time of the first one were. More people jumping out of windows, no doubt. Expectations of the good life have ratched so far upward, from a chicken in every pot to multiple smartphones and HD TVs in every home.

The alternatives to the sort of collectivistic action (like mass starvation and civil unrest) necessary in the Great Depression were obviously unacceptable. If we should get a Great Depression II we will take action in full knowledge that failure will be be even more insufferable. The geriatric leadership that we Americans now have (exemplified by Donald Trump) has never had the taste for paying any price, bearing any burden and meeting any hardship.

Even late-wave Silent, the oldest people to have influence in America today,  knew the Great Depression as it was abating. We as a people do not know the worst of the Great Depression unless we are very old. Sure, the technology is better... but smart phones and hyper-definition TVs won't feed us if the economy fails. Yes, the $2000 that one can spend on some TVs and the $700 that one can spend on a smartphone, or even the $500 that a family can easily spend in a Disney resort could buy plenty of rice, beans,  and evaporated milk. In truly hard times the rice, beans, and evaporated milk will natter greatly, and the hyper-definition TVs, smartphones, and resort vacations will be fluff.

You still need food, water, and a certain range of temperatures if you are to find any material goodies or spiritual enlightenment worthy of the struggle.

GIs created the consumer society  in which big-ticket purchases caused wealth to flow fast enough that people could take little bits and survive. But should we have leadership that dispenses with the consumer society so that all can be profit for an elite, then we will have an economic and social collapse that will make the Great Depression look like the Crash of '87. Cold, hungry people tired of hearing empty promises will turn on the leadership who makes such promises and fails to deliver for the masses while living like kings or sultans.

[Kinser79]

(03-17-2017, 11:15 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [quote pid='23724' dateline='1489742641']
<snip>
Big quibble here.  Bob used the phrase "Borrow and Spend" not tax and spend.  Reagan did cut taxes but he kept spending the same, when he should have slashed spending.  Reagan, Bush I and Bush II ran up the debt (granted no near as much as Obama did) by either cutting or keeping taxes the same while continuing to spend.

Honestly the government needs to slash spending.  The new Budget Blueprint is a start...I think it should go further there's whole departments I want gutted but its a start.

You are correct.  I blew it.  FDR through JFK would be tax and spend.  Reagan, Bush Bush would be borrow and spend.

I'm more inclined to tax more than spend less.  We've been cutting taxes and services since the unravelling.  The younger generations just aren't into paying any price, bearing any burden and meeting any hardship as the GIs were, as everybody was before the National Malaise struck home.  It's all selfishness and privilege to them.
[/quote]


I'm a Nomad so I'm inclined to slashing spending.  We can keep taxes the same.  There is much waste in government.  It starts with Obamacare and works backward to the New Deal.

I've often likened the turnings to phases of construction.  The 4T is the demonlition phase usually.  Instead what has been tried is a patch here, a patch there, eventually the whole structure will collapse in on itself when the whole works should have been bulldozed years ago.

[Kinser79]

(03-17-2017, 11:23 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: Which departments would you gut?

I'd actually start with some supposedly national defense stand alone agencies.  Namely the NSA and the CIA (both are a pit of vipers and have been hated for a long time, going back to the 1T).

After that I'd start with EPA, Department of Education, Department of Energy, Department of Housing and Urban Development, Department of Homeland security (It duplicates the DOD in many cases--other issues can be shipped off to the treasury and like most things Boomer made is a giant cluster fuck),  

I would combine the Departments of Labor, Commerce, Agriculture into a new Department of Economic Affairs.

In short if I find a department I want to cut it.

As for the military I'd slash the army to the bone and close down hundreds if not thousands of foreign bases.  We're bordered by a country whose army consists of two Mounties and a dog on the north, and a country with no military tradition on the south and to the east and west by fish so for defense we need a strong navy and strong air force.  Anyone stupid enough to start a war can be dealt with by conscription.

And for the love of god I'd put a no vacancy sign on the boarders (and ports of entry).  My views on immigration aren't much different from Bill Cutting's.  Just change Irish to Mexicans.





Note in the film it is also a 4T.

[Classic-Xer]

(03-17-2017, 11:15 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 04:24 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-17-2017, 02:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-16-2017, 11:44 PM)TKinser79 Wrote: If I may interject here in your lamenting.  Perhaps a fresh perspective is necessary, and I'm the guy to provide it.

(03-16-2017, 10:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:  I look at the ‘make America great again’ slogan, and note that the time of America’s greatness was the peak of the New Deal and Borrow and Spend liberalism.

Actually no.  While I have no personal experience with the Great Depression I garuntee you that it was not the peak of American Greatness.  As for the Borrow and Spend Liberalism of the Regan/Bush I and Bush II eras were not the peak of American greatness either.

I think he was referring to the post Depression/World War II era (FDR to Carter). Tax and Spend Liberalism that I think he was actually referring to ended with Reagan. I guess the government could no longer afford to absorb the losses that were carried forward from the Vietnam and Korean Wars, the losses associated with the the recession that followed Vietnam, all the costs associated with establishing and maintaining our new position as a world leader and the costs associated with all the new social programs that were added by LBJ's Great Society.

Big quibble here.  Bob used the phrase "Borrow and Spend" not tax and spend.  Reagan did cut taxes but he kept spending the same, when he should have slashed spending.  Reagan, Bush I and Bush II ran up the debt (granted no near as much as Obama did) by either cutting or keeping taxes the same while continuing to spend.

Honestly the government needs to slash spending.  The new Budget Blueprint is a start...I think it should go further there's whole departments I want gutted but its a start.

You are correct.  I blew it.  FDR through JFK would be tax and spend.  Reagan, Bush Bush would be borrow and spend.

I'm more inclined to tax more than spend less.  We've been cutting taxes and services since the unravelling.  The younger generations just aren't into paying any price, bearing any burden and meeting any hardship as the GIs were, as everybody was before the National Malaise struck home.  It's all selfishness and privilege to them.

Actually, Hoover through Carter would be tax and spend. Reagan through Trump would be borrow and spend. Now, I don't like the idea of uncontrolled borrow and spending being allowed to continue any more than you do because I've got a pretty good idea what's going to eventually happen down the road. The country is going to eventually split during the crisis era. Do you get the impression that I care if it splits anymore than you seem to not really care if its splits to me?

[Kinser79]

(03-17-2017, 11:35 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: [quote pid='23730' dateline='1489767349']
<snip>

Which means that if we get to Great Depression II, the current society would have a far more difficult time dealing with it that those around at the time of the first one were. More people jumping out of windows, no doubt. Expectations of the good life have ratched so far upward, from a chicken in every pot to multiple smartphones and HD TVs in every home.
[/quote]

I can't speak from your experiences but we've had Great Depression 2.0 going on since 2008.