Political compass for the21st century

[Eric the Green]

(02-19-2019, 03:49 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-19-2019, 03:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I'm sure. I won't deny there was a general trend of desires for more freedom in lifestyles. But the self-actualization concept and the human potential movements were not self-defeating self-absorption. My points still stand, I think. I would not agree that the hippies were self-absorbed or hyper-individualists; they were about "come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together, try to love one another right now." Hyper individualism that contributed to social disintegration is primarily the responsibility of the neo-liberals, a totally different philosophy and much more political. Of course these neo-liberal tycoons turn everything into a commercial profit-making meme, so some of that occurred with the counter-culture's mainstreamed influence, as well as anything else people might find attractive.

And I still think most of the desire for more freedom in lifestyle was a good thing; it just needs to be more responsible than it was then.

Hippies made a total mosh out of the commune idea, at least all the ones I ran into in my youth.  It was mostly oblivious behavior, but it was still toxic.  All the meditation and drugs tended to create inward focus.  It's hard to be communal under those circumstances.

I don't think so. Meditation and drugs (if rightly used, a big if) open you to life and to others. You can't have a full relationship with life or other people if you are scattered and unfocused within and possessed by reactive fears and social programming, which most of us are most of the time. The biggest fault in our society is our lack of spirituality. The counter-culture was a step, along with aspects of our previous (but mostly forgotten) awakenings, toward reclaiming and updating this within traditional America. Since it is being ignored and denied again, and indeed so strenuously opposed at the time, the next awakening may well have to start from scratch again, and if so, may well be reviled again, and the cycle of nowheresville, spirit-dead, fear-possessed, uninspired and lonely America will just continue. Our streets will still be too dead for dreamin'

I'm not an expert on how good the communes were, but I think only those people who oppose them think they were "toxic." I imagine they were not all they were hoped for, though, since the commune culture didn't last. What lasted longer were events like the rainbow gatherings and the dead-head concert gatherings. Some of these may still be happening. Music festivals still had, and may still occasionally have, some of the original love-in spirit for decades afterward, inspiring many new hippies and awakened folks. These are not all that we need for a spiritual society, of course, but meditation has become much more mainstream, and so have other growth techniques. So the awakening may continue for some people; that's something to hope for.

[pbrower2a]

(02-19-2019, 03:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-19-2019, 04:19 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(02-18-2019, 11:13 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I question the notion that the counter-culture was composed of people who neglected their families. For one thing, most hippies were under 30 years old, and probably didn't have children or married partners. Some of them formed communes in which children were looked after by everyone there. They engaged in free love because they could. Later, many settled down. The birth control pill made freer sex out of wedlock more possible. This pill was not the result of the self-actualization movement.

...if they did not have children, or at least put off child-bearing and child-raising until they were through with the counter-culture. The party is over, at least for women, once they have children. If a man has any character, then the party is over for him.

I wouldn't want to put it like that; I'd put it in a more positive way: more responsibilities have begun.

I can't see a logical difference between what I say and what you say.  If one is a good person, then taking responsibility for children that one bears or sires rightly takes precedence over hedonism and even intellectual absorption.

Quote:

Quote:Gen Xers gained a lot because they were neglected. They became excellent survivalists and independent, self-reliant people. The Awakening era saw a rise in divorces and single-parent families, which was the main reason for this neglect. There were latchkey kids, which was also the result of more women working. Single-parent families was not necessarily a good thing, for many children. I remember Bradshaw said it wasn't. But it was a general trend of the time, and it was not a direct result of the counter-culture or the self-actualization concept. But the general trend of the Awakening was for more freedom in lifestyle, including freedom from marriages that were not happy or supportive for women's aspirations (e.g. The Feminine Mystique), and divorce laws were weakened. So the trend of those times did create more neglect of children. But people who just wanted more freedom were not necessarily self-actualizing people.

Getting stoned was obviously not self-actualization.

Not unless it opens the doors of perception, which can then be followed up by a sincere quest on the path toward genuine self-actualization, if the user is so inclined.[/quote]

Changing the smelly diapers and attending to the formula come before the Voyage to the Interior come before any contemplation of high philosophical inquiry -- or the parents stand to pay for negligence later. If one has the choice of taking a day trip to visit the Art Institute of Chicago or the Auburn-Duesenberg-Cord Museum in Auburn, Indiana from Kalamazoo, Michigan or take care of the child, then one had better choose the child. Infants are demanding, and any shortchanging of them will cost one later. Neglected children more offten than others grow up into dangerous critters.

[Marypoza]

(02-19-2019, 04:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-19-2019, 03:49 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-19-2019, 03:10 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I'm sure. I won't deny there was a general trend of desires for more freedom in lifestyles. But the self-actualization concept and the human potential movements were not self-defeating self-absorption. My points still stand, I think. I would not agree that the hippies were self-absorbed or hyper-individualists; they were about "come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together, try to love one another right now." Hyper individualism that contributed to social disintegration is primarily the responsibility of the neo-liberals, a totally different philosophy and much more political. Of course these neo-liberal tycoons turn everything into a commercial profit-making meme, so some of that occurred with the counter-culture's mainstreamed influence, as well as anything else people might find attractive.

And I still think most of the desire for more freedom in lifestyle was a good thing; it just needs to be more responsible than it was then.

Hippies made a total mosh out of the commune idea, at least all the ones I ran into in my youth.  It was mostly oblivious behavior, but it was still toxic.  All the meditation and drugs tended to create inward focus.  It's hard to be communal under those circumstances.

I don't think so. Meditation and drugs (if rightly used, a big if) open you to life and to others. You can't have a full relationship with life or other people if you are scattered and unfocused within and possessed by reactive fears and social programming, which most of us are most of the time. The biggest fault in our society is our lack of spirituality. The counter-culture was a step, along with aspects of our previous (but mostly forgotten) awakenings, toward reclaiming and updating this within traditional America. Since it is being ignored and denied again, and indeed so strenuously opposed at the time, the next awakening may well have to start from scratch again, and if so, may well be reviled again, and the cycle of nowheresville, spirit-dead, fear-possessed, uninspired and lonely America will just continue. Our streets will still be too dead for dreamin'

I'm not an expert on how good the communes were, but I think only those people who oppose them think they were "toxic." I imagine they were not all they were hoped for, though, since the commune culture didn't last. What lasted longer were events like the rainbow gatherings and the dead-head concert gatherings. Some of these may still be happening. Music festivals still had, and may still occasionally have, some of the original love-in spirit for decades afterward, inspiring many new hippies and awakened folks. These are not all that we need for a spiritual society, of course, but meditation has become much more mainstream, and so have other growth techniques. So the awakening may continue for some people; that's something to hope for.

'- some communes still exist- The Farm in TN 4 1. There's 1 in AZ, my friend's Mom visits it from time 2 time

The Dead are still touring, but without Jerry it just ain't the ssme

[pbrower2a]

Here is the problem: any who would start a new Awakening are still facing Boomers likely to rebuke them for doing it the "wrong way", mostly for not going as far as Boomers would if they were 22 instead of 62. Such will probably hold when Bo0omers are 82, too. Another Awakening Era is likely to be arrive only after Boomers are off the scene, unable to give criticism or advice on efforts to take the Voyage to the Interior.

The odd thing to this Boomer is that some of the practices of the Missionary Generation characteristic only of an Idealist generation were attractive as no other was. Just start with music of composers from Mahler to Stravinsky (even if Stravinsky hated Mahler's guts) by way of Debussy, Sibelius, Scriabin, and Bartok. I love Art Deco, but that seems to fit Boomers alone after its Missionary creators died off.

[Tim Randal Walker]

Yes, some techniques such a meditation may become part of our cultural DNA. Perhaps also the Vision Quest.

Thus the Boom Awakening may have lasting influence.

Regarding the next 2T the surviving Boomers will all be in old age, with the remnant of the Woodstock Wave being in the Old old phase.

[David Horn]

(02-19-2019, 04:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't think so. Meditation and drugs (if rightly used, a big if) open you to life and to others. You can't have a full relationship with life or other people if you are scattered and unfocused within and possessed by reactive fears and social programming, which most of us are most of the time. The biggest fault in our society is our lack of spirituality. The counter-culture was a step, along with aspects of our previous (but mostly forgotten) awakenings, toward reclaiming and updating this within traditional America. Since it is being ignored and denied again, and indeed so strenuously opposed at the time, the next awakening may well have to start from scratch again, and if so, may well be reviled again, and the cycle of nowheresville, spirit-dead, fear-possessed, uninspired and lonely America will just continue. Our streets will still be too dead for dreamin'

The original flower children made a real run at an alternative with heart, but most of the 'joiners' were not of that ilk. Look at the differences between Woodstock and Altamont. They were both held in 1969, but the bloom was already fading by the time Altamont happened in December. Let's be honest here. 95% of the population is mostly oblivious -- often by choice. Once they started to join the hippies, the real hippies faded into the background. I don't see that being different in the future, to be honest. That lifestyle is a bad fit for most of us.

Eric Wrote:I'm not an expert on how good the communes were, but I think only those people who oppose them think they were "toxic." I imagine they were not all they were hoped for, though, since the commune culture didn't last. What lasted longer were events like the rainbow gatherings and the dead-head concert gatherings. Some of these may still be happening. Music festivals still had, and may still occasionally have, some of the original love-in spirit for decades afterward, inspiring many new hippies and awakened folks. These are not all that we need for a spiritual society, of course, but meditation has become much more mainstream, and so have other growth techniques. So the awakening may continue for some people; that's something to hope for.

The Dead Heads are part of the original hippy movement, and the few true believers who joined later. Just like the cloistered monks, the lifestyle is and will always be a fit for only a minority. Most of us aren't wired well enough to "just love one another".

[David Horn]

(02-20-2019, 06:49 PM)Marypoza Wrote: - some communes still exist- The Farm in TN 4 1. There's 1 in AZ, my friend's Mom visits it from time 2 time

The Dead are still touring, but without Jerry it just ain't the ssme

Yes, the few endure -- and good for them. This is not a new concept, but the success rate has never been high. Look at the really ambitious communal settings, like the Amana Colonies. They still exist, but they are more oddities than fully functioning communities.

[Marypoza]

(02-21-2019, 02:11 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-20-2019, 06:49 PM)Marypoza Wrote: - some communes still exist- The Farm in TN 4 1. There's 1 in AZ, my friend's Mom visits it from time 2 time

The Dead are still touring, but without Jerry it just ain't the ssme

Yes, the few endure -- and good for them.  This is not a new concept, but the success rate has never been high.  Look at the really ambitious communal settings, like the Amana Colonies.  They still exist, but they are more oddities than fully functioning communities.

-- my guess is most ppl are not suited 4 commual life, except as a family unit. . even then the goal is to eventually kick the kidz out the door (ie, become self sufficient adults)

I remember the Amana colonies from when l was a kid. They made fridges or something

[David Horn]

(02-22-2019, 11:54 AM)Marypoza Wrote:

(02-21-2019, 02:11 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-20-2019, 06:49 PM)Marypoza Wrote: - some communes still exist- The Farm in TN 4 1. There's 1 in AZ, my friend's Mom visits it from time 2 time

The Dead are still touring, but without Jerry it just ain't the ssme

Yes, the few endure -- and good for them.  This is not a new concept, but the success rate has never been high.  Look at the really ambitious communal settings, like the Amana Colonies.  They still exist, but they are more oddities than fully functioning communities.

-- my guess is most ppl are not suited 4 commual life, except as a family unit. . even then the goal is to eventually kick the kidz out the door (ie, become self sufficient adults)

I remember the Amana colonies from when l was a kid. They made fridges or something

Yes, the colonies decided as a group to start a company: the Amana Corporation, and they made fridges among many things, and even invented the microwave oven.  The company's still exists as a subsidiary of Whirlpool.

[Hintergrund]

The only good idea from the last "Awakening" was environmentalism. And if nobody has a plan to solve the problems, that's worth jack and shit too.

[Eric the Green]

(02-21-2019, 02:03 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-19-2019, 04:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't think so. Meditation and drugs (if rightly used, a big if) open you to life and to others. You can't have a full relationship with life or other people if you are scattered and unfocused within and possessed by reactive fears and social programming, which most of us are most of the time. The biggest fault in our society is our lack of spirituality. The counter-culture was a step, along with aspects of our previous (but mostly forgotten) awakenings, toward reclaiming and updating this within traditional America. Since it is being ignored and denied again, and indeed so strenuously opposed at the time, the next awakening may well have to start from scratch again, and if so, may well be reviled again, and the cycle of nowheresville, spirit-dead, fear-possessed, uninspired and lonely America will just continue. Our streets will still be too dead for dreamin'

The original flower children made a real run at an alternative with heart, but most of the 'joiners' were not of that ilk. Look at the differences between Woodstock and Altamont. They were both held in 1969, but the bloom was already fading by the time Altamont happened in December. Let's be honest here. 95% of the population is mostly oblivious -- often by choice. Once they started to join the hippies, the real hippies faded into the background. I don't see that being different in the future, to be honest. That lifestyle is a bad fit for most of us.

That's true, but I don't think it matters. It had a great effect on a high percentage of younger people of the time, and some older ones too. The real thing is if some of the new age and counterculture remains in what I described above. It was a step toward reclaiming what should be a part of our lives, in any society. The Awakening is available to each of us at any time, whether we are hippies or not. Catch the vision.

Quote:

Eric Wrote:I'm not an expert on how good the communes were, but I think only those people who oppose them think they were "toxic." I imagine they were not all they were hoped for, though, since the commune culture didn't last. What lasted longer were events like the rainbow gatherings and the dead-head concert gatherings. Some of these may still be happening. Music festivals still had, and may still occasionally have, some of the original love-in spirit for decades afterward, inspiring many new hippies and awakened folks. These are not all that we need for a spiritual society, of course, but meditation has become much more mainstream, and so have other growth techniques. So the awakening may continue for some people; that's something to hope for.

The Dead Heads are part of the original hippy movement, and the few true believers who joined later. Just like the cloistered monks, the lifestyle is and will always be a fit for only a minority. Most of us aren't wired well enough to "just love one another".

I know, even the hippies, great as they often were, weren't all that more loving than the rest of us, really; but the point is, we all received or still have access to the Awakening and the vibes it brought, and the new consciousness it fostered. The Awakening was a small step toward a deeper-aware and more-loving society, spiritually and socially/morally, and each Awakening brings another chance for our society to grow a little more in that way, just as each Crisis and Recovery/High is a chance to build a better functioning set of institutions and civic social relationships. May the cycle continue and get healthier.

[Eric the Green]

(02-21-2019, 01:47 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Here is the problem: any who would start a new Awakening are still facing Boomers likely to rebuke them for doing it the "wrong way", mostly for not going as far as Boomers would if they were 22 instead of 62. Such will probably hold when Boomers are 82, too. Another Awakening Era is likely to be arrive only after Boomers are off the scene, unable to give criticism or advice on efforts to take the Voyage to the Interior.

The odd thing to this Boomer is that some of the practices of the Missionary Generation characteristic only of an Idealist generation were attractive as no other was. Just start with music of composers from Mahler to Stravinsky  (even if Stravinsky hated Mahler's guts) by way of Debussy, Sibelius, Scriabin, and Bartok. I love Art Deco, but that seems to fit Boomers alone after its Missionary creators died off.

Or maybe us old boomers will admire the young ones, and encourage them and mentor them. There won't be that many around anyway, especially since the most authentic hippies were silent/boomer cuspers, many of whom have already passed on (like the beloved Jerry, or Paul Kantner).

But if you mean before the next Awakening, the Boomers might criticize the young ones who think things like rap or hip hop represent an expansion of consciousness. I certainly would. But the rave scene's arrival was supported by boomers, and would be again. I say that the Awakening is still available at any time; just tune into it. There are always elders or young cynics around to poo poo it or criticize it, and of course today its Gen Xers like Mr. H here who do that, not old boomers. But such was always so; for us it was the GI generation who put us down. And anyway, appropriate warnings of excess or neglect may be useful or needed from somebody.

[Hintergrund]

I don't think the fault for neglecting kids was all with the Boomers... we have to blame the Silents as well. After all, they brought a good part of the X-ers into the world.

Cleaning up the shit and decay of three generations will be a harder task than tawking about values (you may not even heed).

But what for? For some ungrateful pieces of shit? Former Nomads may have thought that later generations might be grateful, but S&H seem to say they never are.

And @Eric, if you are so serious about materialism being bad, why don't you send all your money to some poor X-ers? I can give you account numbers.

[pbrower2a]

(03-01-2019, 08:52 PM)Hintergrund Wrote: I don't think the fault for neglecting kids was all with the Boomers... we have to blame the Silents as well. After all, they brought a good part of the X-ers into the world.

Cleaning up the shit and decay of three generations will be a harder task than tawking about values (you may not even heed).

Without doubt, it is impossible to undo the harm that the Silent, Boomers, and to a lesser extent GIs (for the latter, largely economic) upon Generation X, which really has been hurt badly. The Silent are rapidly disappearing, and if Boomers are involved with children it is as grandparents (they are probably better grandparents than parents) or as teachers near the ends of their careers. Social reality, including the dangers of the time, can make the abuses of relatively-quiet times impossible. It is possible that an economic depression or calamitous war will make 'finding oneself' through abusive relationships with children completely impossible -- or make the children the object of protection. "Keep this (reference to Nazi Germany or Thug Japan in the last Crisis Era, maybe ISIS in this one) away from your children!"

Values become practically uniform in a Crisis Era, whether for FDR's America or Nazi Germany.  The Crisis leaves little room for any Voyage to the Interior. In the aftermath of the Crisis people will be either picking up the physical pieces of a wrecked world or trying to start of a personal life put on hold while there are more important things to do -- like keeping the Wehrmacht, Gestapo, and SS out of America and Britain or driving them out from occupied countries.  

Quote:But what for? For some ungrateful pieces of shit? Former Nomads may have thought that later generations might be grateful, but S&H seem to say they never are.

[/quote]
As a Boomer I got to know lots of Lost -- and I came to recognize that there were kids pulled out of school to do farm labor, that the Lost had started the bulk of the small businesses that I knew, and that they got at most modest rewards for doing things right. They made no excuses for their crooks -- "well, we were poor, too, and I didn't become a criminal". The best of the Lost were never effective at making elaborate theories praising themselves. They knew how bad human nature could be.

It could be the next Idealist generation that has some recognition of X for leaving behind a better world than they inherited, and for not demanding too much to make the world good for the new Idealists. Sure, I see plenty of hyper-villains of History among the Lost -- but I am glad that I never got to meet Kenji Doihara, Heinrich Himmler, Ante Pavelic, or Matyas Rakosi.

[Hintergrund]

It could be the next Idealist generation that has some recognition of X for leaving behind a better world than they inherited, and for not demanding too much to make the world good for the new Idealists.
[/quote]

Only if they knew as much about the real world as only Nomads can do. Hence: It won't happen. Fuck it.

[Tim Randal Walker]

By the time the next 2T begins the Woodstock Wave will be very old, and rapidly disappearing. The Joners will also be elderly, and disappearing.

It is conceivable that individual Boomers may inspire young New Prophets, but Boomers as a group will be too few and too old to steer or hinder the next Awakening.

[Bill the Piper]

(03-01-2019, 11:12 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: It could be the next Idealist generation that has some recognition of X for leaving behind a better world than they inherited, and for not demanding too much to make the world good for the new Idealists.

Above all, they will rebel against millennials. They might revive Xers' trope that millennials are "clean-cut and conformist" social media drones. So the neo-Missionaries could indeed end up having some affection for gen X.

[David Horn]

(03-07-2019, 12:24 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: By the time the next 2T begins the Woodstock Wave will be very old, and rapidly disappearing.  The Joners will also be elderly, and disappearing.

It is conceivable that individual Boomers may inspire young New Prophets, but Boomers as a group will be too few and too old to steer or hinder the next Awakening.

And the Awakening will be better for it.

[pbrower2a]

(03-07-2019, 05:23 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-07-2019, 12:24 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: By the time the next 2T begins the Woodstock Wave will be very old, and rapidly disappearing.  The Joners will also be elderly, and disappearing.

It is conceivable that individual Boomers may inspire young New Prophets, but Boomers as a group will be too few and too old to steer or hinder the next Awakening.

And the Awakening will be better for it.

My generational identity notwithstanding, I must agree.

[Eric the Green]

(03-07-2019, 07:55 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(03-07-2019, 05:23 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-07-2019, 12:24 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: By the time the next 2T begins the Woodstock Wave will be very old, and rapidly disappearing.  The Joners will also be elderly, and disappearing.

It is conceivable that individual Boomers may inspire young New Prophets, but Boomers as a group will be too few and too old to steer or hinder the next Awakening.

And the Awakening will be better for it.

My generational identity notwithstanding, I must agree.

There will be new prophets to come of age powered by a spiritual awakening. And they will finish what the boomers started, even without their direct influence. The tides and cycles of history will turn, and today's trend to forget all the great aspects of the last awakening only means they will be needed again. And it will be better the second time around, I am sure.