Greta Thunberg - Civic or Artist?

[Bill the Piper]

Which archetype suits her better?

She's an activist, so she's not silent. She calls for collective action, something Civics are known for. And she's something of a fanatic, which is mostly a Prophetic trait but I guess it's possible for Civics during their 4T youth as well. Certainly it's not an Artist trait since we know this archetype tends to be indecisive.

Her sayings definitely reflect a 4T mood:
https://www.curious.earth/blog/greta-thu...es-best-21

The only Artistic trait I've noticed is that she was known as "the invisible girl".

[pbrower2a]

(11-03-2019, 04:31 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: Which archetype suits her better?

She's an activist, so she's not silent. She calls for collective action, something Civics are known for. And she's something of a fanatic, which is mostly a Prophetic trait but I guess it's possible for Civics during their 4T youth as well. Certainly it's not an Artist trait since we know this archetype tends to be indecisive.

Her sayings definitely reflect a 4T mood:
https://www.curious.earth/blog/greta-thu...es-best-21

The only Artistic trait I've noticed is that she was known as "the invisible girl".

The Silent have had plenty of activists, most obviously Martin Luther King, Cesar Chavez... The divide between the Civic and Adaptive types typically does not emerge until the Crisis is over. Among Adaptive types the most decisive are the ones who have firm beliefs, and the muddle in practice comes from people who get power yet have little idea of how to use it. 

We do not yet know when the Millennial/Homelander split happened. Maybe it was 9/11, when almost all countries clamped down on extremist ideas not within the range of the mainstream. 

She could be a flash in the pan. We do not know what her course will be in life. Maybe she becomes a bland academic, someone who gets a narrow focus. She is on the autistic spectrum, and that is the best couse for many on the spectrum. (Ask me about that!)

[Hintergrund]

My bet is on Civic/Hero.

[Kinser79]

My bet that she is a prop of her Antifa activist parents.

That being said assuming Sweden is more or less the same time line as the rest of the West she should be a Late Civic. But I haven't seen, or conducted myself, a thorough examination of Sweden's Turning Structure.

[Bill the Piper]

(11-03-2019, 08:58 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The Silent have had plenty of activists, most obviously Martin Luther King, Cesar Chavez...

Yeah, but they got active during the 1T when they started contesting the Civic consensus. Greta reflects the Millennial consensus and pushes it to the extreme.

[Eric the Green]

(11-03-2019, 04:31 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: Which archetype suits her better?

She's an activist, so she's not silent. She calls for collective action, something Civics are known for. And she's something of a fanatic, which is mostly a Prophetic trait but I guess it's possible for Civics during their 4T youth as well. Certainly it's not an Artist trait since we know this archetype tends to be indecisive.

Her sayings definitely reflect a 4T mood:
https://www.curious.earth/blog/greta-thu...es-best-21

The only Artistic trait I've noticed is that she was known as "the invisible girl".

Very good quotes. I agree with all of them. Not fanatic or extreme at all, but hard truth, and definitely a 4T mood. I didn't see her express any views on other issues beyond her concerns about the climate and environmental crisis, so I don't know if she can be placed yet on a political circle. Being 16, I would put her on the cusp on Civic/Artist, but she is definitely acting like a civic. Although it's also true that Artists/Adaptives can be activists too, and in fact they are more emotional, which she is.

[Hintergrund]

(11-04-2019, 06:27 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: My bet that she is a prop of her Antifa activist parents.

When they're right, they're right. Global Warming is a yuge problem and could become waaay more expensive than any countermeasure.

[Teejay]

European and Australasian generations are several years behind North America currently, the rough estimates for their and our generations are the following;

Artist 1927-1946
Prophet 1947-1965 or 1966
Nomad 1966 or 1967 to 1986
Civic 1987 to 2007?
Artist 2008? -

Therefore; Greta Thunberg (2003) is a late Wave Hero, which is an accurate description of her character.

[Ragnarök_62]

(11-03-2019, 12:42 PM)Hintergrund Wrote: My bet is on Civic/Hero.

?  Here again.   NO! Pet rock.

[David Horn]

(11-04-2019, 06:27 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: My bet that she is a prop of her Antifa activist parents.

That being said assuming Sweden is more or less the same time line as the rest of the West she should be a Late Civic.  But I haven't seen, or conducted myself, a thorough examination of Sweden's Turning Structure.

Everyone forgets the simple truth: generations are aggregates of individuals, and not all individuals are alike.  So typecasting a single individual based on birthdate is a waste of time.  Odds favor one archetype over the others, but any can apply to that single person.  We all have our unique upbringing and natural propensities.  Generational theory can't alter that.

Thunberg comes across as a Cassandra.  That makes her a Prophet.  She's out of sync with her time, but that's her.

[Hintergrund]

(11-10-2019, 11:13 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-04-2019, 06:27 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: My bet that she is a prop of her Antifa activist parents.

That being said assuming Sweden is more or less the same time line as the rest of the West she should be a Late Civic.  But I haven't seen, or conducted myself, a thorough examination of Sweden's Turning Structure.

Everyone forgets the simple truth: generations are aggregates of individuals, and not all individuals are alike.  So typecasting a single individual based on birthdate is a waste of time.  Odds favor one archetype over the others, but any can apply to that single person.  We all have our unique upbringing and natural propensities.  Generational theory can't alter that.

Thunberg comes across as a Cassandra.  That makes her a Prophet.  She's out of sync with her time, but that's her.

Theoretically possible, but anyone who compares her to a prophet (including some of her fans) makes a mistake: Global Warming is a veeery secular challenge. Just the right thing for Heroes. Though I guess they'll need some help from Nomads, as usual.

Praying, spirituality, esoterics won't help here. If they do anything, they turn Boomers into smug idiots who think that since they feel fine, nothing has to be done.

(Maybe they ascribe her this mentality because "Prophets" think everyone thought like them. Typical for these narcissist idiots. They think she was a member of a cult which competes with their cult, whatever that is.)

[Teejay]

(11-10-2019, 03:46 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-09-2019, 04:26 AM)Teejay Wrote: European and Australasian generations are several years behind North America currently, the rough estimates for their and our generations are the following;

Artist 1927-1946
Prophet 1947-1965 or 1966
Nomad 1966 or 1967 to 1986
Civic 1987 to 2007?
Artist 2008? -

Therefore; Greta Thunberg (2003) is a late Wave Hero, which is an accurate description of her character.

Incorrect regarding Australasia. Australia I have heard of this, but Australasia includes New Zealand which is incorrect for my country.

Tara Marie, I have studied New Zealand history particularly it’s politics, I concluded their turnings in the later 20th and early 21st centuries, have been likely virtually identical to Australia’s. Especially given what I have studied of 1980's New Zealand, the public mood was identical to Australia’s which was a late Awakening one. Especially given that New Zealand, Australia and Britain all went through political revolutions during the 1980's, which all ended around 1990. Since Britain and Australia were in Awakenings in the 1980's, so I highly doubt that New Zealand wasn’t in an Awakening in the 1980's either. Therefore; the end of these political revolutions for all three countries, signified the end of the Awakening and the start of the Unravelling. 
 
Anyway, personally see generational boundaries as often very blurry, therefore; the estimate for the Generation Xer/Millennial equivalent boundary for Australia being 1987, is a best estimate. Because say three years of either side of the boundary, there are those who identify with the generation before or after them or identify as both. However, in my observations those Australians born before 1987 are predominantly Nomads, while those born after 1987 are predominantly Heroes. 


For your information, I was born in 1983 and remember the last years of our last Awakening (which ended around 1989-1990). If I wasn’t familiar with Generational Theory, I would likely consider myself as a Millennial. However, being familiar with Generational Theory, I see myself as a late wave member of a Nomad Generation rather an early wave member of a Hero one. Archetypically I consider myself as a Nomad, with all the best and worst traits that comes with it. Although I have acquired some Artist and possibly Hero traits over the years, so I am no longer a typical Nomad anymore, however my sister born in 1985 is very much a solid Nomad. Also, a lot of my peers I have met personally or public figures I have encountered, are archetypically much more like Nomads than Heroes. 
 
Tara Marie, I ask you a question, what years do Kiwi Boomers believe is part of their generation? I ask this because Aussie Boomers have a very strong sense of generational identity and consider their generation being born from the late 1940's to middle 1960s. Indeed, even some people born in the late 1960s, even consider themselves as Boomers or act more like Prophets than Nomads. The British Generation 68ers have the same opinion as well about who belongs to their generation.

[Teejay]

(11-11-2019, 04:02 PM)taramarie Wrote: If you aren't here in New Zealand and have not grown up here you can only judge from a distance. It only takes you so far. I have first hand experience living here, growing up here which I can tell you all about as a millennial born late 1984 and yes we definitely are millennials. Ask kiwi's what its like here.

Tara Marie, 

For near on two decades, I have studied a lot Australian History, Politics and Popular Culture, also I have studied New Zealand’s to a lesser extent. Also, I have made extensive, detailed observations of people I have known in my life, along with public figures and generational societal attitudes in Australia.  Early on I rejected Strauss and Howe’s dates (whih they admitted were for North America) as not fitting the evidence for Australia, therefore I made my own estimates for Australian turnings and generations which pretty much exactly matches British (although interestingly not Irish) ones. 

Anyway, what observations I have made about New Zealand, have indicated a generational line-up identical to Australia’s. Indeed the 1980's for New Zealand, especially with the Revolutionary Fourth Labour Government, which was as revolutionary as Thatcher's Conservative government screams totally an Awakening to me. 

Anyway, regarding Australians born approximately from 1983 to 1986, I see us being late members of a Nomad generation. Indeed, observations I have made about these cohorts, which I have shared to American old T4T posters, have remarked that would make observations like that of those born in the late 1970's. Also they remark Australia's societal mood currently is similar to America's around 2014-2015, complete with a Tea Party style government, which is turning into a Trump style one. New Zealand's government to me seems to be a somewhat progressive version of the Obama administration.

However, some of us identify as Millennial's and conform to the Civic archetype or even have elements of both Civic and Nomad archetypes, but I am not one of them, I see myself as a Nomad belonging to a Nomad generation, despite these days I am far from a typical Nomad, although many people younger than me are very much Nomads, this all expected of what are considered ‘cuspers’. Although in the people I have known in my life, a lot of those born in the early to middle 1980's are very often Nomads, rather than Civics. While I see more Civics among those born in the late 1980's, although even you get sometimes either Nomads or Nomad/Civic hybrids, indeed the Civic archetype only starts becoming really dominant in the early 1990's cohorts.

Regarding my life experience, growing up in Australia, the experience is consistent of late wave member of a Nomad Generation, the same went for the great bulk of my peers as well. For example; in the High Schools I went to in both Hobart and Melbourne. There were cliques which the students socialised predominantly in, which have been maintained as we approach middle age. However, I was excluded from these cliques and was something of an outcast. That probably made me acquire some Artist traits in the last couple of decades.

Might I add my experience growing up and coming of age, was like the American Lost Generation in some respects, also my relationship with some Boomers (including my parents) was what was described about the American Lost and Missionaries by Strauss & Howe. Especially given that Aussie Boomers greatly resemble the American Missionaries, expect if they embraced New Age Spirituality, the parallels go down to Aussie Boomers having twaged numerous 'crusades' against what they see as "vices", which some were good and others were terrible. Plus the young adult Nomads were especially targeted by the crusades that the Aussie Boomers waged, that is what myself felt and many of my peers as well.

One of the Aussie 'crusades' was imposing a huge amount of social regulations imposed during in the 1990s and 2000s, which has turned Australia into a what is seen as some overseas observers a ‘nanny state’. Which, I argue definitely was an attempt to deny a Nomad generation of the freedoms, that Boomers enjoyed as young adults and to punish us Nomads. On top of that, there were punitive measures introduced in the late 1990s for people collecting unemployment benefits as well, by mutual obligation requirements and work for dole. However the Aussie Boomers could literally 'dole bludge' when they were young adults, indeed some New Zealanders moved to Australia in the 1970s to 'dole bludge' in places such as the suburb of Bondi in Sydney.

Although, in recent years people are starting to question wither some of these 'nanny state' measures were good ideas, such as the Lockout laws for pubs and nightclubs which my state (New South Wales) has. Because as the 1990s and recently 2000s cohorts have come of age, people are much more sympathetic to these cohorts than they were to mine, which was more an attitude of "they deserve it".

[Teejay]

(11-11-2019, 10:58 PM)taramarie Wrote: And again if you were to even fkn bother opening ears you would learn I definitely am not one. I have had a full civic upbringing. But believe what you want. You are very wrong. The most authentic data you can be getting is one from actual collective experiences from people who live in the country you are speaking about.

You were born in 1984, some Australians born in that year had Civic upbringing's. However they are in the minority, with the majority having the same Nomad upbringing I had.

Anyway my methodology is purely a scientific, objective, dispassionate one and using a form of hypothesis testing. So, if the evidence proves my hypothesis, then I will reject it. 

Also, I have met a considerable number of New Zealanders in my life, not surprising since we have around 500,000 in this country. Generationally they are pretty much identical to Australians. This does not surprise me, because both our countries are very closely related culturally, indeed we are the Southern Hemisphere equivalents of Canada (New Zealand) and the United States (Australia). These cultural links, are reflected in phenomenon such as political trends, such as both our countries had revolutionary governments in the 1980s, the Hawke-Keating Government in Australia and the Fourth Labour Government in New Zealand. Along the emergence of Green parties which have become significant players in our parliaments.

While we have some differences in our cultures, especially political ones, however they are a result of different circumstances which our nations emerged and developed. Indeed it was only some accidents in Australian political history, that we did not have our equivalents of Helen Clark or Jacinda Ardern, otherwise such political leaders would have emerged here in Australia. Along with the appalling record so far in reconciliation between our First Nations people and the rest of the country.

[Hintergrund]

hey Teejay, are you Australian? Maybe it's just your family that's untypical. I always say, all people with shitty parents are a bit of a Nomad.

[AspieMillennial]

(11-11-2019, 08:49 AM)Teejay Wrote:

(02-26-2017, 01:39 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(08-21-2016, 06:33 PM)Remy Renault Wrote: Even though the US and Western Europe are more or less in alignment, sometimes I feel the dates of certain turnings differ slightly depending on what side of the pond you're on. For instance, even if the American 2T lasted from 1965-1980, in Western Europe I think it was more late fifties to mid-seventies rather than mid sixties to early eighties like in the US. So if anything, Europe had a really f***ing long 3T. In Western Europe the "Sixties" were basically over before they officially ended according to the calendar whereas they lasted until about 1973 in the US. Or maybe it was only France and Italy who experienced their respective 2Ts ahead of schedule, say from 1959-1975, whereas the UK and Germany experienced theirs at roughly the same time as the US. I don't know...

But I think it's safe to say the 2T officially ended in Italy the night Pier Paolo Pasolini got murdered.

I think its obvious, the dates for the turnings between the US and Western Europe are very much in aligment. We have the 1T starting in 1948/9. In West Germany we have 1948 the Währungsreform (currency reform) and 1949 the foudation of the Federal Republic (were the first is in the german mindset more important then the later), in Italy the election of 1948 which stabilize the first Republic. I admit France is a bit complicated, but the economic recovering and the isolation of the communists also starts around 1947/8. That France has still to deal witha lot of leftover problems from the 4T is a result of Vichy, which coloboration tarnished the french hero generation and led to a restauration of the old 3T elite, till the Gaullists took over.
The 2T starts 1967/8 with the emerging youth(prophet) revolt. May 68 in Paris is definitly a important date.
1987 in West Germany, 1988 in France the ruling partys have slogans similar to "Its Morning, America" but in any case the events of 1989 show the beginning of the 3T.
The Financial crisis of 2008 had hit Europe much more, then the USA, whith creating a significant crisis of the Eurozone and the EU. With the Brexis this crisis reach ist boiling point.

Would not 1989 with the Fall of the Berlin Wall, along with the Second Summer of Love in Britain (which was the British Boomers or Generation 68'ers version of Woodstock), be a more fitting for end of the last 2T for Europe? Because the mood I get from Europe (minus Ireland, Turkey, Ukraine, Russia and Belarus which I argue are on a different saeculums) was one of spiritual satisfaction in 1989. Also I argue events of 1989 for Europe to me were a swan song to the Awakening, along with being a fitting end to an Awakening which started with the Prague Spring and the Protests of 1968.

(11-11-2019, 10:36 PM)Teejay Wrote:

(11-11-2019, 04:02 PM)taramarie Wrote: If you aren't here in New Zealand and have not grown up here you can only judge from a distance. It only takes you so far. I have first hand experience living here, growing up here which I can tell you all about as a millennial born late 1984 and yes we definitely are millennials. Ask kiwi's what its like here.

Tara Marie, 

For near on two decades, I have studied a lot Australian History, Politics and Popular Culture, also I have studied New Zealand’s to a lesser extent. Also, I have made extensive, detailed observations of people I have known in my life, along with public figures and generational societal attitudes in Australia.  Early on I rejected Strauss and Howe’s dates (whih they admitted were for North America) as not fitting the evidence for Australia, therefore I made my own estimates for Australian turnings and generations which pretty much exactly matches British (although interestingly not Irish) ones. 

Anyway, what observations I have made about New Zealand, have indicated a generational line-up identical to Australia’s. Indeed the 1980's for New Zealand, especially with the Revolutionary Fourth Labour Government, which was as revolutionary as Thatcher's Conservative government screams totally an Awakening to me. 

Anyway, regarding Australians born approximately from 1983 to 1986, I see us being late members of a Nomad generation. Indeed, observations I have made about these cohorts, which I have shared to American old T4T posters, have remarked that would make observations like that of those born in the late 1970's. Also they remark Australia's societal mood currently is similar to America's around 2014-2015, complete with a Tea Party style government, which is turning into a Trump style one. New Zealand's government to me seems to be a somewhat progressive version of the Obama administration.

However, some of us identify as Millennial's and conform to the Civic archetype or even have elements of both Civic and Nomad archetypes, but I am not one of them, I see myself as a Nomad belonging to a Nomad generation, despite these days I am far from a typical Nomad, although many people younger than me are very much Nomads, this all expected of what are considered ‘cuspers’. Although in the people I have known in my life, a lot of those born in the early to middle 1980's are very often Nomads, rather than Civics. While I see more Civics among those born in the late 1980's, although even you get sometimes either Nomads or Nomad/Civic hybrids, indeed the Civic archetype only starts becoming really dominant in the early 1990's cohorts.

Regarding my life experience, growing up in Australia, the experience is consistent of late wave member of a Nomad Generation, the same went for the great bulk of my peers as well. For example; in the High Schools I went to in both Hobart and Melbourne. There were cliques which the students socialised predominantly in, which have been maintained as we approach middle age. However, I was excluded from these cliques and was something of an outcast. That probably made me acquire some Artist traits in the last couple of decades.

Might I add my experience growing up and coming of age, was like the American Lost Generation in some respects, also my relationship with some Boomers (including my parents) was what was described about the American Lost and Missionaries by Strauss & Howe. Especially given that Aussie Boomers greatly resemble the American Missionaries, expect if they embraced New Age Spirituality, the parallels go down to Aussie Boomers having twaged numerous 'crusades' against what they see as "vices", which some were good and others were terrible. Plus the young adult Nomads were especially targeted by the crusades that the Aussie Boomers waged, that is what myself felt and many of my peers as well.

One of the Aussie 'crusades' was imposing a huge amount of social regulations imposed during in the 1990s and 2000s, which has turned Australia into a what is seen as some overseas observers a ‘nanny state’. Which, I argue definitely was an attempt to deny a Nomad generation of the freedoms, that Boomers enjoyed as young adults and to punish us Nomads. On top of that, there were punitive measures introduced in the late 1990s for people collecting unemployment benefits as well, by mutual obligation requirements and work for dole. However the Aussie Boomers could literally 'dole bludge' when they were young adults, indeed some New Zealanders moved to Australia in the 1970s to 'dole bludge' in places such as the suburb of Bondi in Sydney.

Although, in recent years people are starting to question wither some of these 'nanny state' measures were good ideas, such as the Lockout laws for pubs and nightclubs which my state (New South Wales) has. Because as the 1990s and recently 2000s cohorts have come of age, people are much more sympathetic to these cohorts than they were to mine, which was more an attitude of "they deserve it".

Nanny state laws are even worse now in the UK than they were when you were growing up and the laws keep getting more and more extreme. Explain this.

[Kinser79]

(11-08-2019, 07:55 AM)Hintergrund Wrote:

(11-04-2019, 06:27 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: My bet that she is a prop of her Antifa activist parents.

When they're right, they're right. Global Warming is a yuge problem and could become waaay more expensive than any countermeasure.

Global Warming is bunk.  Every prediction predicted to date has been wrong.  That track record is unlikely to change.  So-called climate models are about as effective at modeling the climate as Gosplan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gosplan) models were at modeling an economy.

[Kinser79]

(11-10-2019, 11:13 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-04-2019, 06:27 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: My bet that she is a prop of her Antifa activist parents.

That being said assuming Sweden is more or less the same time line as the rest of the West she should be a Late Civic.  But I haven't seen, or conducted myself, a thorough examination of Sweden's Turning Structure.

Everyone forgets the simple truth: generations are aggregates of individuals, and not all individuals are alike.  So typecasting a single individual based on birthdate is a waste of time.  Odds favor one archetype over the others, but any can apply to that single person.  We all have our unique upbringing and natural propensities.  Generational theory can't alter that.

Thunberg comes across as a Cassandra.  That makes her a Prophet.  She's out of sync with her time, but that's her.

Possibly.  She supposedly has some type of Autism Spectrum Disorder (usually attributed is Asperger's...but DSM V, etc, etc) so that might also shift her out of sync as well.

[pbrower2a]

Were I to choose among the problems identified in the DMS-IV, I would pick Asperger's. One can hurt others' feelings but otherwise be harmless. One can be a chilly rationalist and competent on the job.

With suitable support and encouragement, someone with Asperger's might not have a fully-satisfying life, but lots of people lead miserable lives for various reasons, including poverty -- and most of the pathology in the DMS-IV. I am not sure that narcissists have it so great.

[Kinser79]

Key phrase there PBR..."Would pick". Have you had your plethora of tests and observations done yet or are you still relying on the word of a social worker you had a five minute conversation with?

Honestly I don't know who is worse, you who reads an abstract on WebMD and decides he has X condition or my mother who is utterly convinced I didn't need to go to the oral surgeon to have a rotted tooth extracted; that it could be healed with crystals. Good thing I went to culinary and not medical school. Otherwise I'd be dealing with hypochondriac boomers when I wasn't dealing moronic new ager boomers who are convinced that their charlatan of the week is superior to my education and science.

As for misery, there are various causes for misery not all of them economic, sociological or pathological. I'd venture to say being a loser in general is pretty miserable. Fortunately I'll not have to experience that as I'm not a loser--I went out and got mines. I dare say that you should have done the same, perhaps then you'd be far less miserable now. Mind you I don't have the White and Straight Privileges you have.