Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure

[Eric the Green]

(01-03-2019, 11:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-03-2019, 10:18 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-02-2019, 09:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-30-2018, 11:18 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: There is no other context in which to discuss an AR-15, other than as a military weapon.

Well, there's a difference between a fully automatic rifle or machine gun and a semi automatic rifle that can be shot pretty fast, Now, you may not care about the difference or be able to see or hear the difference or be able understand the difference or may not be open minded enough to want to learn and find out the difference them which is fine and seems to be the norm for most so-called liberal's.

Yet a simple device, the bump stock, can make the one into the other.  Worse, the bump stock is truly simple … simple enough to craft at home.  So yes, a semiautomatic rifle can be a machine gum in waiting.   Among many others, the AR-15 certainly qualifies.

Yes, and that simple bump stock is now illegal. Yes, altering AR-15 in a way that makes it an illegal firearm is illegal to do as well.

Semi-automatics in my view are new guns on the block. They are not pistols, they are not rifles, they are not hunting or sporting guns; they are military weapons. All of them. They can all use a magazine with more than 10 rounds too. And they all should be banned, except for use by a well-regulated armed force.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-04-2019, 03:49 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-03-2019, 11:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-03-2019, 10:18 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-02-2019, 09:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-30-2018, 11:18 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: There is no other context in which to discuss an AR-15, other than as a military weapon.

Well, there's a difference between a fully automatic rifle or machine gun and a semi automatic rifle that can be shot pretty fast, Now, you may not care about the difference or be able to see or hear the difference or be able understand the difference or may not be open minded enough to want to learn and find out the difference them which is fine and seems to be the norm for most so-called liberal's.

Yet a simple device, the bump stock, can make the one into the other.  Worse, the bump stock is truly simple … simple enough to craft at home.  So yes, a semiautomatic rifle can be a machine gum in waiting.   Among many others, the AR-15 certainly qualifies.

Yes, and that simple bump stock is now illegal. Yes, altering AR-15 in a way that makes it an illegal firearm is illegal to do as well.

Semi-automatics in my view are new guns on the block. They are not pistols, they are not rifles, they are not hunting or sporting guns; they are military weapons. All of them. They can all use a magazine with more than 10 rounds too. And they all should be banned, except for use by a well-regulated armed force.

Semi-automatics have been around since the turn of the last century. I grew up with semi-automatics. I learned how to shot with semi-automatic firearms. I have purchased several as an adult, The first gun that I legally purchased as an adult was a semi-automatic deer rifle. My second purchase was a semi-automatic shotgun for hunting ducks and pheasants.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-03-2019, 04:59 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: If I am a banker issuing credit cards, then I might not want people to spend their credit limit on something such as a military-style arsenal or upon weapons and ammunition that the bank can never collect upon should the user use those weapons and ammo in a criminal manner. One firearm is enough as a protection against a grizzly, and I know of liberals who have a firearm for that purpose. I see it reasonable for a credit card company to demand that one show a hunting license for the purpose of buying a hunting rifle. Unsecured credit cards are higher risk to a lender than are mortgage loans or auto loans, and as such mortgage and auto loans. If one has no coherent reason for buying a firearm, then why should one be able to get one on a credit card?

But I took economics in college (my major), and I have worked in a bank. I know a few  things that you don't. I will take the side of a responsible banker over someone who chooses to use credit for reckless spending and for deeds that verge on gambling on a large scale.
So you own a highly-successful restaurant in Indianapolis and want to establish something much like it in Fort Wayne that should be similarly successful. That is wonderful. Were I a banker I would encourage such. On the other side, you have no experience in the restaurant business and no experience in profit-and-loss and you want to start a restaurant from scratch? As a banker I would tell you to keep your day job as a warehouse worker.  

You're not a banker issuing credit credit or a banking person who started out at the bottom (an entry level banker/banking position) and gradually worked his way up to a high level banker position or banking position. No, you're a college graduate with a major in economics who didn't seem to be able to make it in banking beyond entry level for some reason or another. Yes, you're a college graduate who has a degree in economics. Yes, I'm only a business owner with 32 years of of HVAC experience and 26 years of actual business experience. I mean, my only major accomplishment is owning and operating an American business that topped out at a million dollars a year in revenues before the economy took a major dump and bunch of dumb college kids chose a half Marxist-half partisan blue crony who worked as a community organizer (legal advisor/lawyer) for left wing organizations/interest groups that are funded by American tax dollars and private or corporate donations because he was cooler candidate, he was the younger candidate, he was the livelier candidate, he looked more professional and seemed to be very well educated, he was black, he was the Democratic candidate and so forth for our president.

As far as credit cards, the credit company's issue them to us (financially qualified consumers/people) for their our own personal use for their own personal reason which they decide among themselves as individuals in exchange for a monetary percentage or fees associated with our usage and the amount of debt owed on our accounts.

[Eric the Green]

(01-04-2019, 05:56 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-04-2019, 03:49 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-03-2019, 11:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-03-2019, 10:18 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-02-2019, 09:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, there's a difference between a fully automatic rifle or machine gun and a semi automatic rifle that can be shot pretty fast, Now, you may not care about the difference or be able to see or hear the difference or be able understand the difference or may not be open minded enough to want to learn and find out the difference them which is fine and seems to be the norm for most so-called liberal's.

Yet a simple device, the bump stock, can make the one into the other.  Worse, the bump stock is truly simple … simple enough to craft at home.  So yes, a semiautomatic rifle can be a machine gum in waiting.   Among many others, the AR-15 certainly qualifies.

Yes, and that simple bump stock is now illegal. Yes, altering AR-15 in a way that makes it an illegal firearm is illegal to do as well.

Semi-automatics in my view are new guns on the block. They are not pistols, they are not rifles, they are not hunting or sporting guns; they are military weapons. All of them. They can all use a magazine with more than 10 rounds too. And they all should be banned, except for use by a well-regulated armed force.

Semi-automatics have been around since the turn of the last century. I grew up with semi-automatics. I learned how to shot with semi-automatic firearms. I have purchased several as an adult, The first gun that I legally purchased as an adult was a semi-automatic deer rifle. My second purchase was a semi-automatic shotgun for hunting ducks and pheasants.

Since the turn of the last century! Ha! For 19 years. 19 empty, stagnant, meaningless years we should not even add to our age, they went by so bleeping fast, because nothing happened in them! Nothing worth remembering at all, except maybe Justin Bieber!

You have no business cheating as a hunter by using semi-automatics! Hunting is not a war. Use a rifle, like a real man! ha ha!

Pop pop pop pop pop in less than 2 seconds. Bah! Cheating! Deadly for shooting innocent people.

[pbrower2a]

(01-05-2019, 04:11 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-04-2019, 05:56 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-04-2019, 03:49 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-03-2019, 11:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-03-2019, 10:18 AM)David Horn Wrote: Yet a simple device, the bump stock, can make the one into the other.  Worse, the bump stock is truly simple … simple enough to craft at home.  So yes, a semiautomatic rifle can be a machine gum in waiting.   Among many others, the AR-15 certainly qualifies.

Yes, and that simple bump stock is now illegal. Yes, altering AR-15 in a way that makes it an illegal firearm is illegal to do as well.

Semi-automatics in my view are new guns on the block. They are not pistols, they are not rifles, they are not hunting or sporting guns; they are military weapons. All of them. They can all use a magazine with more than 10 rounds too. And they all should be banned, except for use by a well-regulated armed force.

Semi-automatics have been around since the turn of the last century. I grew up with semi-automatics. I learned how to shot with semi-automatic firearms. I have purchased several as an adult, The first gun that I legally purchased as an adult was a semi-automatic deer rifle. My second purchase was a semi-automatic shotgun for hunting ducks and pheasants.

Since the turn of the last century! Ha! For 19 years. 19 empty, stagnant, meaningless years we should not even add to our age, they went by so bleeping fast, because nothing happened in them! Nothing worth remembering at all, except maybe Justin Bieber!

You have no business cheating as a hunter by using semi-automatics! Hunting is not a war. Use a rifle, like a real man! ha ha!

Pop pop pop pop pop in less than 2 seconds. Bah! Cheating! Deadly for shooting innocent people.

Sport hunters typically want either a trophy or meat, and for that one accurate, strong shot is adequate. If you are hunting with a dog, then you certainly don't want to put your precious dog at risk of getting shot. Your dog is probably more precious than your gun.

I am willing to say that a hunting license might as well be an effective gun license.

By the way -- I predict that the Harry Potter novels will be better remembered than will Justin Bieber.

[Eric the Green]

(01-05-2019, 05:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-05-2019, 04:11 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-04-2019, 05:56 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-04-2019, 03:49 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-03-2019, 11:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yes, and that simple bump stock is now illegal. Yes, altering AR-15 in a way that makes it an illegal firearm is illegal to do as well.

Semi-automatics in my view are new guns on the block. They are not pistols, they are not rifles, they are not hunting or sporting guns; they are military weapons. All of them. They can all use a magazine with more than 10 rounds too. And they all should be banned, except for use by a well-regulated armed force.

Semi-automatics have been around since the turn of the last century. I grew up with semi-automatics. I learned how to shot with semi-automatic firearms. I have purchased several as an adult, The first gun that I legally purchased as an adult was a semi-automatic deer rifle. My second purchase was a semi-automatic shotgun for hunting ducks and pheasants.

Since the turn of the last century! Ha! For 19 years. 19 empty, stagnant, meaningless years we should not even add to our age, they went by so bleeping fast, because nothing happened in them! Nothing worth remembering at all, except maybe Justin Bieber!

You have no business cheating as a hunter by using semi-automatics! Hunting is not a war. Use a rifle, like a real man! ha ha!

Pop pop pop pop pop in less than 2 seconds. Bah! Cheating! Deadly for shooting innocent people.

Sport hunters typically want either a trophy or meat, and for that one accurate, strong shot is adequate. If you are hunting with a dog, then you certainly don't want to put your precious dog at risk of getting shot. Your dog is probably more precious than your gun.

I am willing to say that a hunting license might as well be an effective gun license.

By the way -- I predict that the Harry Potter novels will be better remembered than will Justin Bieber.

OK, you seem to be right so far. It's up to Justin; he seems to have gone quiet now; he needs to make more songs to get back to the influential figure he was back when he was #1 simultaneously on four big social media and internet sites: google search, facebook, twitter and youtube. Now, Rolling Stone won't even include him in their list of 100 most influential artists. Harry Potter is beloved and made the top 5 of PBS's favorite book list, The Great American Read, whose #1 is also my favorite and which I voted for, To Kill A Mockingbird. I knew both would make it. But, I found the Harry Potter movie I watched for a while to be very boring and I had to stop. So I dunno...... I never stop watching a Bieber video......

[Classic-Xer]

(01-05-2019, 04:11 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Since the turn of the last century! Ha! For 19 years. 19 empty, stagnant, meaningless years we should not even add to our age, they went by so bleeping fast, because nothing happened in them! Nothing worth remembering at all, except maybe Justin Bieber!

You have no business cheating as a hunter by using semi-automatics! Hunting is not a war. Use a rifle, like a real man! ha ha!

Pop pop pop pop pop in less than 2 seconds. Bah! Cheating! Deadly for shooting innocent people.

What? You think AR-15's and other similar semi-automatic rifles (so-called weapons of war/ mass murder) are the first semi-automatic rifles that Americans have ever used or seen before them or something. I learned how to shoot and handle a real firearm with a Browning .22 caliber semi-automatic carbine rifle that could go pop, pop, pop, pop in a few seconds if you weren't all that interested in shooting with accuracy and grouping multiple shots with accuracy.

You have no business sticking your nose in my business and telling me which kind of rifle suits me better for hunting or for personal or a common defense. You might feel that you have some authority or possibly think/ believe that you represent some sort of an authority figure in the minds of clueless people and scaredy cat adults in general. Well, I'm not a clueless person or a scaredy cat. So, you have an issue with the presence of a legitimate adult who doesn't lack courage/balls, who isn't afraid to face criticism, take on criticism and duly apply criticism, who knows enough about most things related to American life, economics and history in general to keep people like you honest and label people like you as dishonest or ignorant.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-05-2019, 05:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Sport hunters typically want either a trophy or meat, and for that one accurate, strong shot is adequate. If you are hunting with a dog, then you certainly don't want to put your precious dog at risk of getting shot. Your dog is probably more precious than your gun.

I am willing to say that a hunting license might as well be an effective gun license.

By the way -- I predict that the Harry Potter novels will be better remembered than will Justin Bieber.

One well placed shot is adequate and all that should needed if a careless/clueless animal happens to be standing in the middle of a wide open field with short grass located in the middle of no where within comfortable or average shooting range. I don't hunt in a perfect place like that. I hunt wild animals with all kinds of natural instincts honed for survival that do things that are unpredictable at time who prefer to live in woods with all kinds of obstacles that show up at anytime.

My uncles advice, "Make the first shot count because every shot taken afterwards is guess work". My dads advice, "Take your time and make every shot count".  My uncles advice was the advice of a seasoned hunter that's to a younger less experienced hunter or a seasoned hunter who who has an issue with getting over excited at the sight of a deer or the idea of a deer not falling down and getting away wounded or a young hunter hunting alone for the first without adult supervision or guidance. The advice of dad was that of a seasoned hunter to a son who would become a seasoned hunter just like him some day.

BTW, according to my wife, my last hunting dog was viewed as being more precious to me than her. She would joke with our friends and say, if he had to chose between saving me or his dog, I'm not sure who he would chose to save. My response, I'm not sure who would chose to save either but I sure that I would die trying to save both of you.

[pbrower2a]

(01-06-2019, 12:28 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-05-2019, 05:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Sport hunters typically want either a trophy or meat, and for that one accurate, strong shot is adequate. If you are hunting with a dog, then you certainly don't want to put your precious dog at risk of getting shot. Your dog is probably more precious than your gun.

I am willing to say that a hunting license might as well be an effective gun license.

By the way -- I predict that the Harry Potter novels will be better remembered than will Justin Bieber.

One well placed shot is adequate and all that should needed if a careless/clueless animal happens to be standing in the middle of a wide open field with short grass located in the middle of no where within comfortable or average shooting range. I don't hunt in a perfect place like that. I hunt wild animals with all kinds of natural instincts honed for survival that do things that are unpredictable at time who prefer to live in woods with all kinds of obstacles that show up at anytime.

Deer are smart enough to know when hunting season begins and to know safe places. I have seen deer standing next to "NO HUNTING" signs, which may be mere coincidence. Deer know what we are, and they know what dogs are. Tigers. 

Quote:My uncles advice, "Make the first shot count because every shot taken afterwards is guess work". My dads advice, "Take your time and make every shot count".  My uncles advice was the advice of a seasoned hunter that's to a younger less experienced hunter or a seasoned hunter who who has an issue with getting over excited at the sight of a deer or the idea of a deer not falling down and getting away wounded or a young hunter hunting alone for the first without adult supervision or guidance. The advice of dad was that of a seasoned hunter to a son who would become a seasoned hunter just like him some day.

That's how I understand it.  You have one shot at a deer, and it is up to you as a hunter to make it a lucky shot for you and finis for the deer. The wounded deer might get away for a while, only to expire -- and become dog food.

Deer hunting is a culture.

Quote: 
BTW, according to my wife, my last hunting dog was viewed as being more precious to me than her. She would joke with our friends and say, if he had to chose between saving me or his dog, I'm not sure who he would chose to save. My response, I'm not sure who would chose to save either but I sure that  I would die trying to save both of you.

Most sport hunters would be delighted to have the government separate criminals from guns. Were I a legislator drafting restrictions on firearms I would be extremely lenient with sport hunters.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-06-2019, 07:29 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: That's how I understand it.  You have one shot at a deer, and it is up to you as a hunter to make it a lucky shot for you and finis for the deer. The wounded deer might get away for a while, only to expire -- and become dog food.

Deer hunting is a culture.

Quote: 

Well, according to my uncle, the successful harvest of an animal was attributed to 99% luck (Being ready and alert while being located in the right place at the right time while being in a position that gives you an advantage) and 1% skill ( the ability to place an accurate/deadly round through a vital area of an adult animal within a brief moment of time or brief seconds of opportunity). As general rule, we aren't out there hunting to provide dog food or easy prey for hungry wolves. We are out there to provide meat for families and friends or neighbors who don't have time to be out there hunting themselves. Yes, deer hunting and all other forms of hunting are directly related to a sizeable portion of American culture.

[David Horn]

FWIW, almost all deer hunting around here is done from tree stands. Sitting in a tree and waiting for a deer is boring, unless you entice the animal with doe-pee, or something similar. Which makes hunting less about skill than patience. I live in an exurban area, with some semi-concentrated housing and larger areas of rural land. I can hear gunshots almost every day just being at home. So far, no shots have intruded on my property, at least to my knowledge.

I hope that the venison is well used, but I'm more than a bit suspicious it may not be. That said, we are overrun with deer; hunting is preferable to mass starvation.

[Eric the Green]

(01-05-2019, 10:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-05-2019, 04:11 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Since the turn of the last century! Ha! For 19 years. 19 empty, stagnant, meaningless years we should not even add to our age, they went by so bleeping fast, because nothing happened in them! Nothing worth remembering at all, except maybe Justin Bieber!

You have no business cheating as a hunter by using semi-automatics! Hunting is not a war. Use a rifle, like a real man! ha ha!

Pop pop pop pop pop in less than 2 seconds. Bah! Cheating! Deadly for shooting innocent people.

What? You think AR-15's and other similar semi-automatic rifles (so-called weapons of war/ mass murder) are the first semi-automatic rifles that Americans have ever used or seen before them or something. I learned how to shoot and handle a real firearm with a Browning .22 caliber semi-automatic carbine rifle that could go pop, pop, pop, pop in a few seconds if you weren't all that interested in shooting with accuracy and grouping multiple shots with accuracy.

You have no business sticking your nose in my business and telling me which kind of rifle suits me better for hunting or for personal or a common defense. You might feel that you have some authority or possibly think/ believe that you represent some sort of an authority figure in the minds of clueless people and scaredy cat adults in general. Well, I'm not a clueless person or a scaredy cat. So, you have an issue with the presence of a legitimate adult who doesn't lack courage/balls, who isn't afraid to face criticism, take on criticism and duly apply criticism, who knows enough about most things related to American life, economics and history in general to keep people like you honest and label people like you as dishonest or ignorant.

Yeah, I do and society does. You have no business owning military weapons. AR-15s are the weapon of choice for mass murderers. Massacre victims are saying enough is enough, and we will have our way. Hunting culture needs to go back to real hunting culture, not a war on nature or a war on deer.

You are perfectly welcome to express your contrary opinion, and none of us around here are afraid to express our opinions or correct what we see as ignorance or dishonesty. I question why you feel the need to declare your rights and ability to do this. Even though you don't like me, I am fine to have you and your point of view expressed here.

Personally I don't think there's a need for a hunting culture for sport or meat eating, but I know there are other points of view on this, and if we become a fully civilized society, we will be able to sort out the various needs and cultures and come to agreements that serve the people. Republicans are now unable to do this, for the most part. Once you guys are politically defeated, you will be able to come to the table as part of a moderate center-right coalition (perhaps in what is now the Democratic Party) and participate in a civilized society, and leave the Paul Ryans, Newt Gingriches, and Donald Trumps on the lunatic fringe where they belong. This may take a while to happen, but on the other hand, 4Ts move fast and we may move quite a ways toward this goal in the 2020s.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-07-2019, 11:11 AM)David Horn Wrote: FWIW, almost all deer hunting around here is done from tree stands.  Sitting in a tree and waiting for a deer is boring, unless you entice the animal with doe-pee, or something similar.  Which makes hunting less about skill than patience.  I live in an exurban area, with some semi-concentrated housing and larger areas of rural land.  I can hear gunshots almost every day just being at home.  So far, no shots have intruded on my property, at least to my knowledge.

I hope that the venison is well used, but I'm more than a bit suspicious it may not be.  That said, we are overrun with deer; hunting is preferable to mass starvation.

I hunt from a tree stand and have mainly hunted from a stand. My dad and uncle were more into group hunting and posting and driving deer. My uncles personal views and advice pertained more to that style of deer hunting than stand hunting and his knowledge of the rifle that he used for deer hunting. His deer rifle was better suited for open field or open woods and hunting antelope or smaller bodied deer. I've been called lucky by hunters who didn't know any better or hardly knew us or hardly hunted with us at all.. The 12 point, 225 pound (dressed) Boone & Crocket that I shot several years ago was pretty lucky in a way. Yes, I admit that I was very lucky to have had the opportunity and very lucky for him giving me a chance to harvest him. He should have lived. He should've continued following the doe that he was chasing. He shouldn't have stopped in his tracks in thick cover and tried to figure out where I was located or trying to figure out what my ATV was instead. I think he was trying to figure out what the old weathered plywood blocking the back of my ATV was at the time. Locating him and locating a part of him to shoot at that would either drop him or completely miss without gut shooting him or destroying his hind quarters without spooking him or giving away my location or presence took some skill and harvesting him with an unbelievable shot through a tiny opening through the brush located with my scope and making a shot that required pin point accuracy that dropped him in his tracks took quite a bit of skill to accomplish as well. I familiar with exurban areas too.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-07-2019, 01:39 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Yeah, I do and society does. You have no business owning military weapons. AR-15s are the weapon of choice for mass murderers. Massacre victims are saying enough is enough, and we will have our way. Hunting culture needs to go back to real hunting culture, not a war on nature or a war on deer.

You are perfectly welcome to express your contrary opinion, and none of us around here are afraid to express our opinions or correct what we see as ignorance or dishonesty. I question why you feel the need to declare your rights and ability to do this. Even though you don't like me, I am fine to have you and your point of view expressed here.

Personally I don't think there's a need for a hunting culture for sport or meat eating, but I know there are other points of view on this, and if we become a fully civilized society, we will be able to sort out the various needs and cultures and come to agreements that serve the people. Republicans are now unable to do this, for the most part. Once you guys are politically defeated, you will be able to come to the table as part of a moderate center-right coalition (perhaps in what is now the Democratic Party) and participate in a civilized society, and leave the Paul Ryans, Newt Gingriches, and Donald Trumps on the lunatic fringe where they belong. This may take a while to happen, but on the other hand, 4Ts move fast and we may move quite a ways toward this goal in the 2020s.

No, you don't and neither does blue society. You forget, you live in an American based republic comprised of 50 states who currently remain together by choice and you live in an American state that currently remains together by choice as well, Your issue has always been our freedom to choose and decide for ourselves, How's the trickle on the blue side these days? Does the trickle still suck on the blue side? Blue America still not paying people enough to survive in blue America without lots of government programs and financial support and now reliant upon local governments passing laws that raise wages too.

[Eric the Green]

(01-08-2019, 01:13 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-07-2019, 01:39 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Yeah, I do and society does. You have no business owning military weapons. AR-15s are the weapon of choice for mass murderers. Massacre victims are saying enough is enough, and we will have our way. Hunting culture needs to go back to real hunting culture, not a war on nature or a war on deer.

You are perfectly welcome to express your contrary opinion, and none of us around here are afraid to express our opinions or correct what we see as ignorance or dishonesty. I question why you feel the need to declare your rights and ability to do this. Even though you don't like me, I am fine to have you and your point of view expressed here.

Personally I don't think there's a need for a hunting culture for sport or meat eating, but I know there are other points of view on this, and if we become a fully civilized society, we will be able to sort out the various needs and cultures and come to agreements that serve the people. Republicans are now unable to do this, for the most part. Once you guys are politically defeated, you will be able to come to the table as part of a moderate center-right coalition (perhaps in what is now the Democratic Party) and participate in a civilized society, and leave the Paul Ryans, Newt Gingriches, and Donald Trumps on the lunatic fringe where they belong. This may take a while to happen, but on the other hand, 4Ts move fast and we may move quite a ways toward this goal in the 2020s.

No, you don't and neither does blue society. You forget, you live in an American based republic comprised of 50 states who currently remain together by choice and you live in an  American state that currently remains together by choice as well, Your issue has always been our freedom to choose and decide for ourselves, How's the trickle on the blue side these days? Does the trickle still suck on the blue side? Blue America still not paying people enough to survive in blue America without lots of government programs and financial support and now  reliant upon local governments passing laws that raise wages too.

You guys are the ones who voted for trickle down. At least we in California have a healthy economy because we are a blue state, in which people pay for government to provide for long-term investments in infrastructure and education, which greedy capitalists will not, and we provide a safety net for victims of capricious capitalists that you think reds are God's gift to Humanity and can do no wrong. 

Yes we do, and "freedom" does not in any way consist of a choice to own military weapons which only the military should use.

[pbrower2a]

It is impossible to associate one partisan agenda with what it means to be an American. To decide what isn't? I'd say that selling out the interests of Americans to foreign powers or ideologies hostile to democracy is un-American, l whether the ideology is Communism, fascism, or "Islamofascism". Even the KKK is American by default.

"American" is so meaningless as a cultural description that it is more geographic than anything else. Think of the Austro-Hungarian Empire without the despotic tendencies. As a political description, then look at the Constitution and at such laws as the 1964 Civil Rights Act that fits the description of the legislation that Congress has for enforcing it.

If a dispute is possible among well-intentioned, wise people, then one cannot use the word "un-American" to describe something that might seem exotic or even clearly from elsewhere. There may be nothing American about the music of Johann Sebastian Bach or the novels of Fyodor Dostoevsky, but enjoying them is as American as having a pizza at a birthday party at which the kids break a pinata.

[David Horn]

(01-08-2019, 01:13 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: ... You forget, you live in an American based republic comprised of 50 states who currently remain together by choice and you live in an  American state that currently remains together by choice as well, Your issue has always been our freedom to choose and decide for ourselves, How's the trickle on the blue side these days? Does the trickle still suck on the blue side? Blue America still not paying people enough to survive in blue America without lots of government programs and financial support and now  reliant upon local governments passing laws that raise wages too.

I don't think so. The ACW settled the issue of divisibility, and the South lost that one. We are now unequivocally the United States, not these United States. Does that mean that every state must be like every one? No, but it does mean that Federal law is supreme. You mentioned a few areas fully open to Federal law. They once were and, and that may be returning in force in the near future. We've had quite enough of the private sector playing one state or region off against the others.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-08-2019, 01:24 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-08-2019, 01:13 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: ... You forget, you live in an American based republic comprised of 50 states who currently remain together by choice and you live in an  American state that currently remains together by choice as well, Your issue has always been our freedom to choose and decide for ourselves, How's the trickle on the blue side these days? Does the trickle still suck on the blue side? Blue America still not paying people enough to survive in blue America without lots of government programs and financial support and now  reliant upon local governments passing laws that raise wages too.

I don't think so.  The ACW settled the issue of divisibility, and the South lost that one.  We are now unequivocally the United States, not these United States.  Does that mean that every state must be like every one?  No, but it does mean that Federal law is supreme.  You mentioned a few areas fully open to Federal law.  They once were and, and that may be returning in force in the near future.  We've had quite enough of the private sector playing one state or region off against the others.

Really?? Federal law is still viewed as supreme??? If federal law was still viewed as supreme, we wouldn't have lower courts dictating their own social policy or using their legal positions to obstruct justice and foreign policy and matters relating to national security like we've been seeing today. If federal law was still viewed as supreme, we wouldn't have sanctuary cities/states, issues relating to illegal immigration and the legal sale of marijuana to the public for any reason in some states. What gives blues the authority to ignore American law or state law and impose their own laws instead?  What allows them to do so without concern of being arrested and prosecuted and convicted of breaking federal laws and being sent to prison or violent retaliation? Whatever it is, I assume it's not legal or good. Do you think I'd turn the other cheek or accept things remaining as they are and have been for years, if a loved one were killed by an illegal immigrant or do you think I'd declare war (raise Holy Hell) on the blueish Democratic establishment?

[Classic-Xer]

(01-08-2019, 02:48 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You guys are the ones who voted for trickle down. At least we in California have a healthy economy because we are a blue state, in which people pay for government to provide for long-term investments in infrastructure and education, which greedy capitalists will not, and we provide a safety net for victims of capricious capitalists that you think reds are God's gift to Humanity and can do no wrong. 

Yes we do, and "freedom" does not in any way consist of a choice to own military weapons which only the military should use.

Is your economy healthy or is your economy unable to keep up and support all the bills associated with its blue government these days and unable to employ enough people in your state these days.

[Eric the Green]

(01-08-2019, 08:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-08-2019, 02:48 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You guys are the ones who voted for trickle down. At least we in California have a healthy economy because we are a blue state, in which people pay for government to provide for long-term investments in infrastructure and education, which greedy capitalists will not, and we provide a safety net for victims of capricious capitalists that you think reds are God's gift to Humanity and can do no wrong. 

Yes we do, and "freedom" does not in any way consist of a choice to own military weapons which only the military should use.

Is your economy healthy or is your economy unable to keep up and support all   the  bills associated with its blue government these days and unable to employ enough people in your state these days.

blue governments are well-managed; reds are not.

CA is solvent right now, probably because property tax revenues are so high; at least I think so, given the sky high property values. Unbelievable. Most Bay Area houses cost over a million and apartment rents are $2-3000 per month. Unemployment is low in prosperous areas, but poverty is high among poor and immigrant populations in poor central valley (generally Republican) areas, and there's homelessness because of the high housing costs everywhere.

We have strict gun laws, but the 2nd amendment still applies, so criminals and would-be criminals who aren't criminals yet can still get guns and kill people, like a teen football player yesterday in the Bay Area and several others today. Cops still get shot too, and cops still shoot people. It's still America. Real Americans support gun control and gun bans because real Americans don't want to see a bar fight become a shooting of a little girl like what happened in Texas this week. Real Americans are more concerned about so many people being shot dead for no reason, instead of whether they can shoot a deer or not instead of going to the grocery store.