Fascism is on the ballot

[Classic-Xer]

(10-16-2020, 05:05 AM)Isoko Wrote: Classic Xer, 

As I said before, I live in Russia but come from Britain. I'm well aware of what you are talking about and I'm telling you that Trump is heavily losing popularity. If Trump actually managed to pull off a victory at this stage, it would be the greatest political upset in history. It would be the political equivalent of the OJ Simpson trial.

The greatest upset in political history already occurred in my opinion.

[pbrower2a]

(10-17-2020, 04:00 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-15-2020, 01:39 PM)CH86 Wrote:

(10-15-2020, 12:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-15-2020, 11:26 AM)CH86 Wrote: Donald Trump WILL Run again in 2024 (after repealing the two terms limit/he will achieve this via Berniecrats unexpectedly siding with the GOP on this one issue) but will be crushed in that election in 2024...

I suspect the polls are more or less right, Trump will loose, be found guilty of something or other, and therefore be disqualified from running in 2024.  This might not stop him from going through the motions, it will just prevent him from winning.  I don't expect, however, to convince an ideologue.  We'll see how Earth 1 progresses.

How are you going to win the election without the Millies/Homies/Late-wave Xers/Young minorities contingent? You guys can't win with just Sixties radicals and acolytes. We don't like president Trump BUT we're never going to vote for permanent feminist activist Rule or a global disarmament platform. We're NOT unilaterally disarming like we did during the 1990s which would bring possibly another 9/11, even worse a second Pearl Harbor. As long as the dnc insists on making the above your platform and keeps gaslighting by saying that not wanting global disarmament (when Russia and China are building Missiles like sausages) or not wanting feminist identity rulership is somehow being racist against black people ( and then parading some hippy boomer and/or Black Boomer (and it's almost always a boomer) Born before 1965 who then makes a condescending lecture); this is doubly insulting when most of those who are criticizing you are mostly Blacks, Hispanics, Asians and Young Whites, mostly born after 1965. YOU are talking to one of these mixed race young legionaries. Your feminist Harpies who think Boomers rock, are very much a tiny minority of young people.

The rest of Us want policy reform, not a cultural revolution. We usually disliked the GOP because that Party traditionally blocked such initiatives and was most hostile to such initiatives. Post-Trump the GOP seems to be gaining an advantage because at least part of that party is finally at least looking at the room and the the rest of us. The DNC however insists on keeping its head up it's Ass, which is sad because most Millennials favored policies that traditionally were closer to the DNC's platform than that of the GOP. DNC, Stop with this 60's hippy-dippy nonsense. We (Millennials) don't want World peace/World without war, or a world without economic/social Cycles. We Millennials recognize that things like wars and Economic depressions and the occasional social disruptions are facts of life and Inherent parts of human nature. Until Liberal Boomers make peace with Human nature and STOP Trying to Change Human nature and START advocating Policy reform, Economic Reform, Military reform, Social Cohesion and National security protection, you are not going to be winning young people and without the Young (born after 1970) vote you can't win any elections. We're not voting for another hippiest Control-freak.

Sorry it's the Boomers, Not Millennials or even Xers, who have gone crazy in recent years. Boomers are trying to deceive millennials into voting against their own interests. Real Millennials want the Boomer Leadership Gone, period that is what constitutes millennials prime interests. Currently it is the DNC who is worse in that Regard. If we have a Biden Term we would get at most 2 years of Biden then he would be 25th amendment-ed by the DNC and then have 10 years of Kamala. We would have essentially Boomer Tyranny until 2032 and probably no millennial president until the 2040 election. By the America would be broken beyond repair, and thats even if Kamala didn't escalate the culture wars. With four more years of Trump, he would be gone after 2024 and if tried to run another term he would probably be crushed by any remotely competent electoral adversary in 2024. We would then have a millennial president and (as most millennials are cultural moderates) he/she would likely be capable of making peace with Classic-Xer, the culture wars would end in a handshake with the various radicals sides discredited and becoming pariahs. The rest of us would have tough Xer/Millie leadership which would rebuild the military and Industry, streamline infrastructure repair, Fully integrate all minorities into US culture without emotional boomer radicals getting in the way, nationalize/anchor the tech industry and integrate it with the military. We could get the above done if it wasn't for boomer Lunatics on both Sides (but currently worse on the boomer left) messing up everything.

Age becomes a factor even with Trump. I don't see him running again in 2024. If Trump wins, the Republican party will become America's party because it will have no other choice than to become America's party which will result in  the Democratic party being left to their own devices and eventually  their own demise. To me, Trump's election buys time for more Americans to get of Dodge so to speak.

Enough Americans have figured out what President Trump really is and despise him enough that they will vote for Joe Biden. "Establishment" wins against someone that the Establishment can successfully depict as a dangerous demagogue. Most polling indicates that he stands to lose in the range of 7% to 17% by margin. Such ranges between a defeat on the scale of the loser in the 1988 and 2008  for a lesser defeat and the defeat of Hoover by FDR in 1932. The larger numbers are more recent and suggest the collapse of a failing campaign.

All previous 4T's have redefined what America is, and this one will be no exception. You are welcome to believe what you want, but you would be wrong.

[Eric the Green]

(10-18-2020, 12:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-17-2020, 07:15 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-17-2020, 04:00 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: If Trump wins, the Republican party will become America's party because it will have no other choice than to become America's party which will result in  the Democratic party being left to their own devices and eventually  their own demise.

The Republicans have to get rid of Trump, the Trump enablers, the Trump base, the racist tendency and the elitist tendency.  That, and they have to wait for the turnings to go selfish again.  It will take that long to rebuild after the 'get rid of' phase anyway.

Of course, there is always the chance that the Trump base will come out on top of the Republicans struggle for control of the party.  If that is the case, and the base still seems dedicated enough to the racist cause that it might happen, the party goes down to a non contender status.  Trump could prove a looser, but the core of the strongest conservative faction.

We already came out on top of the struggle for control over the party. The Republican party knows that it can't win without us and the Trump supporters and the Evangelicals these days. You really have to start paying attention to what you write about us and our so called tendencies compared to the tendencies that we can see and directly associate with you and the Democratic side.

I will pay attention, so that what I write about you folks is as incendiary and insulting as possible, don't you worry 'bout that. 

[Eric the Green]

(10-17-2020, 06:24 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(10-16-2020, 04:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-16-2020, 07:19 AM)Isoko Wrote: I agree with you Eric when it comes to millenials in America (and the larger Anglo world such as Britain and Canada). The vast majority of them actually are very defensive and supportive of the new multicultural/multiracial society that has been born. They don't have the desire to return to the past. 

However, millenials in Europe are a different kettle of fish. Aside from some outliers such as Germany and Sweden, I would say the vast majority of millenials in Europe have some form of populist right wing sympathy. Greek millenials are very patriotic and right wing. The majority of French millenials supported LePen with arguments made similar to Classic Xer and CH86. Italian millenials usually vote for the populists. Spain has a growing right wing populist movement and its millenials supporters. Eastern European millenials have views that would not be out of place in 1950s Britain. You get the point. 

Like I said before, Trump would actually be very successful in Europe. I think the reason for this is that the Anglo countries tend to be more defensive of democratic structures compared to Europeans that like to embrace their caesars every so many generations.

"populist" is not an accurate term for these right-wing folk; that meaning of "populism" implies that "the people" at heart are fearful and prejudiced and can be preyed upon to vote their rights away on that basis, whereas the original meaning of the term means power to the people over moneyed and the other elite interests of a few.

Is populist any worse a term than, for example socialist or revolutionary? I remember seeing an image of a billboard in Cuba that extolled "Socialist Revolution -- of the common man, by the common man, and for the common man" in a deliberate use of a key phrase of Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address on behalf of Castro's "revolution".   

It isn't a bad term, and has much in common with "socialism" in that regard. "Populism" shares concerns with the latter but is less drastic, not necessarily involving as much public ownership and central management of the economy. But socialism is a dirty word in America.

Quote:

Quote:Europe and the USA are different, that is true. Europe has a long Caesar tradition, whereas USA has a long democratic one. Things have shifted a bit though, because the Europeans since WWII and the American Marshall Plan restoration, and especially since the late sixties movements, took the American sixties movements and older democratic traditions and went with them and became more advanced, while America has gone backward in that time. 

America and most of Europe experienced much the same Enlightenment. The difference is that the landed elites did everything possible to protect their class privilege from democracy. European economic elites saw their own power, indulgence, and gain as the definitive expression of the social optimum and sought to limit the Enlightenment to cultural creation in lofty literature, music, and art and to science and technological progress. (It was not so simple in America, where the slave-owning planters whose economic values were feudal). Politics? The economic elites squelched that area of the Enlightenment, and in many countries political change would require revolutions beginning with the French Revolution. The American Revolution came into being before the Industrial Revolution took hold in America, so the American Revolution came before socialism was even a word. The Humanist enlightenment in Europe would largely need revolution or other overthrow to bring an end to the last traces of feudal structure.   

It seems so.

Quote:

Quote:Also, Europe has a much-stronger socialist tradition, and it's not a dirty word there whereas it is in the USA, especially because the USA was the leader of the Cold War and Russia was the totalitarian "socialist/communist" enemy, and because of our self-reliance capitalist ethic. Therefore with all these trends much has been established in Europe of a liberal and left bent, so the generational cycle of returning caesars may not apply. But you may be right that with the millennials it is coming around again, and the immigrant/refugee crisis certainly has stoked it with the rise of LePen, Brexit, the Italian right-wing leaders, neo-Nazis in Germany, and the drift back to authoritarian government in eastern Europe, etc. There is also certainly rising people-power opposition to these trends, as there is in the whole world now. That's true populism.

Populism needs humanism to avoid becoming fascist. America has a "populist" party, but it is very much on the Far Right, much in contrast to the Populist Party that Americans knew in the time of William Jennings Bryan. Socialism needs democracy and the rule of law to avoid degenerating into the Bolshevik-Stalinist-Maoist-Khmer Rouge nightmare. This said, I see tendencies within some libertarian talk that promises (paradoxically) the Marxist assumption that the State will wither away. That's not to say that institutions of the State can wither away without doing great harm to multitudes. I can easily imagine a libertarian society degenerating into a feudal nightmare in which the rich-and-powerful have the dubious freedom of doing to any tenant or employee whatever those rich-and-powerful people want to do.  Needful institutions include courts of law, without which lynch mobs will arise. ...

Populism does not become fascist, but demagogues arise and appeal to fear and prejudice and take our rights away, and elites in the press coin the word "populism" to mean rule by whom they consider the uneducated rabble. The populism of the 1890s continues among genuine populists like Bernie Sanders, who is also a democratic socialist, which as you say is a good combo. Democracy seems implied within populism, as the power of the people, but if the people are riled into a mob by demagogues, then democracy disappears.

Quote:

Quote:So, we'll see. I think if caesarism returns it will be a 4T thing, and that means soon. It may already be too late for the LePen types, since the refugee crisis is easing now. Trump's fall, if it happens, will also take some air out of this movement. A progressive turn in America will influence what happens in Europe once again.

If you think the refugee crisis is bad now, then wait until King Neptune starts confiscating the land of hundreds of millions of peasant farmers with the corresponding reduction in food supplies. Hunger allows no technological fix.

That's true; in the longer run as the climate crisis continues, the spike in the early to mid-2010s will recur in future times. Because of this crisis and others, globalism will of necessity become ever-stronger, and people will need to face the fact of different folks living in their midst and becoming a part of their lives. The Trump-LePen-Brexit projects will become ever-more futile.

[Isoko]

Eric, 

First of all I wouldn't put Brexit in the same camp as LePen or Trump. What we have to understand about Brexit is that it was a project a long time in the making. Eurosceptic points of view had been present in Britain ever since Britain joined the then EEC in the 1970s. It only started to really gain political traction in the 1990s when the EEC became the EU. This is the time when UKIP and Nigel Farage started to get going with him first becoming an MEP in 1999.

It was never a populist revolt. It was more of an economic revolt actually. In the 70s and 80s, Britain actually was profiting from EEC membership but eventually as time went on, the EU started to become more of a burden. Britain was putting more in and not getting the returns out of it like it once did. I think the first revolt was when Britain refused to join the Euro for economic reasons. Then it just sort of spiraled out of control after that.

I think if Trump never happened, Brexit eventually would have. It was always on the cards. It had been set in stone decades before. I do forsee Britain having some economic wobbles with Brexit to begin with but then the economy really starts to pick up there and improve.

I do think that green revolution we both see happening and I predict will start in Britain to begin with, I think that will be Brexit inspired as Britain suddenly has enough money to put into agricultural subsidies that it was losing with EU membership. 

Secondly, in regards to America and Europe, it is very much part of what I would call "energy of the place." what we have to understand is that all territories produce a special energy that influence decisions on how people live their lives and how societies develop. It is a very esoteric concept but when you can feel the energy, you understand what it is about.

America has a very wild energy that demands to be free. This I would explain is why America has always had a long attachment to Democracy. Individualism is very much prized in America. This also explains why secession usually starts to rear its head every century. Sometimes it works out like with the American revolt against Britain. Sometimes it fails like with the Confederacy vs the Union. But it is that yearning to break away and start anew that is the fundamental process of America. 

Europe has a completely different energy to it and so does Russia. Europe is a continent of extremes. Extreme forms of government, extreme ideas, extreme tensions. Extreme is always the case in Europe. With the exception of Britain that follows more America (and always has) Europe truly is what I call the continent of the mad men. Lots of wars, lots of revolutions, its energy still lingers. Expect caesarism to pick up there and eventually take power. It is an inevitably until the people decide to go extreme once again.

As for Russia - the energy here is one of Sovietism. Everyone living together for the greater good. Everyone pulling together for the greater good. It was there before the Soviet Union and it is this energy that will eventually birth a new culture. Even the youth revolts in Russia still bear this same energy, "for the greater good."

Try it Eric sometime. Try to feel the energy of various places and you will know what I'm talking about.

[David Horn]

(10-18-2020, 12:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-17-2020, 07:15 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-17-2020, 04:00 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: If Trump wins, the Republican party will become America's party because it will have no other choice than to become America's party which will result in  the Democratic party being left to their own devices and eventually  their own demise.

The Republicans have to get rid of Trump, the Trump enablers, the Trump base, the racist tendency and the elitist tendency.  That, and they have to wait for the turnings to go selfish again.  It will take that long to rebuild after the 'get rid of' phase anyway.

Of course, there is always the chance that the Trump base will come out on top of the Republicans struggle for control of the party.  If that is the case, and the base still seems dedicated enough to the racist cause that it might happen, the party goes down to a non contender status.  Trump could prove a looser, but the core of the strongest conservative faction.

We already came out on top of the struggle for control over the party. The Republican party knows that it can't win without us and the Trump supporters and the Evangelicals these days. You really have to start paying attention to what you write about us and our so called tendencies compared to the tendencies that we can see and directly associate with you and the Democratic side.

There's more than a grain of truth in this.  Bill Clinton singlehandedly destroyed the bond between the working class and the Democratic Party.  The people who suffered then haven't forgotten.  On the other hand, it's getting more and more obvious that the Trump Train was and remains a massive confidence game, and that will have implications in the future.  Bernie Sanders already has the code to reverse this faux pas, and someone both younger and equally charismatic will emerge -- of that I'm certain. When and who are the only unknowns.

[David Horn]

(10-18-2020, 02:39 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-17-2020, 08:43 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-16-2020, 04:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I can tell that Isoko doesn't live here.

I can say the same about you, and be more accurate in doing so.  You are part of the alternate truth squad, who have demonized fact over opinion for so long, you can't tell the difference anymore.  RW and social media have more in common with Soviet Pravda than they do with reality. I assume they are your source of "news".

You assume??? Is there a Liberal around here who really knows anything at this point?? Let's see, we have Facebook and Twitter censoring/banning  conservatives and banning press releases  related to Biden and you're telling me  that  we're associated with the alternate truth squad. I watch Fox news and I check out their competition to see if they've changed or still the same. So, what's your opinion worth to me, has it's value changed over fifteen years.

H-m-m-m.  My point made and confirmed. Thanks.

[Eric the Green]

What I wrote to Senator Feinstein today:

I just heard that you congratulated that horrible senator Graham for conducting a good hearing and gave him a hug. Senator, what are you doing to stop him and his fellow reactionaries from confirming Barrett? Don't you know that she is a direct threat to democracy, and is being put on the Court now by Trump and the Republicans to overturn this election and install Trump back into power for 4 years? Don't you know that Trump has lawsuits to stop votes from being counted or threw out elections in swing states? Trump has said specifically that she needs her on the Court to decide these cases in his favor. Senator, you have worked hard for decades for restoration of our climate in the midst of increasing fires burning down our state. You have worked to stop gun violence through assault weapons bans. You have supported health care reform and worker and consumer rights. All of this work will be for nothing if you continue to allow this confirmation to go forward this week. You have received the memo published by The Intercept and written by experts on senate procedures. If you are not acting on this with all the energy you can muster, you are derelict in your duty to all of your constituencies and to your own work and on all these issues. I don't understand why you are letting the Republicans get credit for a "good hearing" and the publicity that Barrett did a fine job. She is a threat to democracy. She has refused to recuse herself from election decisions. She refused to accept the science on climate change. She was HORRIBLE at the hearings, and they were a total disgrace. Please, you and your fellow Democrats must grow a backbone now and resist this horrendous act of political piracy and hijacking of our Court. I don't see how we the people can continue to support you otherwise.

[Eric the Green]

(10-18-2020, 04:10 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-16-2020, 05:05 AM)Isoko Wrote: Classic Xer, 

As I said before, I live in Russia but come from Britain. I'm well aware of what you are talking about and I'm telling you that Trump is heavily losing popularity. If Trump actually managed to pull off a victory at this stage, it would be the greatest political upset in history. It would be the political equivalent of the OJ Simpson trial.

The greatest upset in political history already occurred in my opinion.

It was an upset, but it could probably not be the greatest if the national polls were only off by one or two points. They would likely have to be off by much more this time.

[Eric the Green]

(10-18-2020, 08:06 AM)Isoko Wrote: Eric, 

First of all I wouldn't put Brexit in the same camp as LePen or Trump. What we have to understand about Brexit is that it was a project a long time in the making. Eurosceptic points of view had been present in Britain ever since Britain joined the then EEC in the 1970s. It only started to really gain political traction in the 1990s when the EEC became the EU. This is the time when UKIP and Nigel Farage started to get going with him first becoming an MEP in 1999.

It was never a populist revolt. It was more of an economic revolt actually. In the 70s and 80s, Britain actually was profiting from EEC membership but eventually as time went on, the EU started to become more of a burden. Britain was putting more in and not getting the returns out of it like it once did. I think the first revolt was when Britain refused to join the Euro for economic reasons. Then it just sort of spiraled out of control after that.

I think if Trump never happened, Brexit eventually would have. It was always on the cards. It had been set in stone decades before. I do forsee Britain having some economic wobbles with Brexit to begin with but then the economy really starts to pick up there and improve.

I do think that green revolution we both see happening and I predict will start in Britain to begin with, I think that will be Brexit inspired as Britain suddenly has enough money to put into agricultural subsidies that it was losing with EU membership. 

Secondly, in regards to America and Europe, it is very much part of what I would call "energy of the place." what we have to understand is that all territories produce a special energy that influence decisions on how people live their lives and how societies develop. It is a very esoteric concept but when you can feel the energy, you understand what it is about.

America has a very wild energy that demands to be free. This I would explain is why America has always had a long attachment to Democracy. Individualism is very much prized in America. This also explains why secession usually starts to rear its head every century. Sometimes it works out like with the American revolt against Britain. Sometimes it fails like with the Confederacy vs the Union. But it is that yearning to break away and start anew that is the fundamental process of America. 

Europe has a completely different energy to it and so does Russia. Europe is a continent of extremes. Extreme forms of government, extreme ideas, extreme tensions. Extreme is always the case in Europe. With the exception of Britain that follows more America (and always has) Europe truly is what I call the continent of the mad men. Lots of wars, lots of revolutions, its energy still lingers. Expect caesarism to pick up there and eventually take power. It is an inevitably until the people decide to go extreme once again.

As for Russia - the energy here is one of Sovietism. Everyone living together for the greater good. Everyone pulling together for the greater good. It was there before the Soviet Union and it is this energy that will eventually birth a new culture. Even the youth revolts in Russia still bear this same energy, "for the greater good."

Try it Eric sometime. Try to feel the energy of various places and you will know what I'm talking about.

I definitely agree about the energy of different places, and know what you mean. And times, too.

I don't agree about Brexit, but argument seems useless. It is part of the stoked nationalism of today, and shares much in common with Trumpism. It was narrowly approved because of the refugee crisis, and there should have been a revote as many people wanted. Half of the UK wanted to remain in the union. The movement toward union is the one I saw as what things were moving toward; this movement is itself is quite recent. But those more nationalistic such as you may be, would naturally be more in favor of Brexit. It's a difference in view and values. I don't dig nationalism, particularly. It seems artificial, sometimes. But it's natural to feel dedication to the land that is your home.

I appreciate Europe and its culture very much. It nourishes my artistic and spiritual life more than does American culture. It's great musical composers are my gurus. Their cathedrals and artistic traditions going back millennia are inspiring. Asia is the source of our spiritual and religious traditions and their arts recreate the experience of awakening. The USA, the Americas and Africa have traditions I value as well. All the world's cultures have differing levels of respect for individual freedom and democracy, and dedication to being in communal energy and pulling together, and different levels of authoritarian tendencies. I place great stock in the revolutionary movements of the last 250 years, and their three phases, and their ongoing influence that shapes our society to become more free and dedicated to liberty, equality and fraternity/greenpeace, each in turn.

There is certainly a lot of authoritarian trends and personalities in the USA, despite its democratic traditions. Britain is accepting of differences and easy-going, but perhaps too respectful of royalty and aristocracy and too proud of its empire, which helped inspire Brexit. The West has been a source of advanced science. Europe was the source of a great part of the world revolution for liberty, and also of the communal socialist movements that were established under Russian tyranny. Europe (including Russia) is the most creative continent. And for sure, its former aristocracy and royal traditions still are influential at times, as are its ancient caesarian empires and its embrace of terror under the Nazis that sought to turn back the clock to the darkest times.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-18-2020, 08:06 AM)Isoko Wrote: Europe has a completely different energy to it and so does Russia. Europe is a continent of extremes. Extreme forms of government, extreme ideas, extreme tensions. Extreme is always the case in Europe. With the exception of Britain that follows more America (and always has) Europe truly is what I call the continent of the mad men. Lots of wars, lots of revolutions, its energy still lingers. Expect caesarism to pick up there and eventually take power. It is an inevitably until the people decide to go extreme once again.

As for Russia - the energy here is one of Sovietism. Everyone living together for the greater good. Everyone pulling together for the greater good. It was there before the Soviet Union and it is this energy that will eventually birth a new culture. Even the youth revolts in Russia still bear this same energy, "for the greater good."

Try it Eric sometime. Try to feel the energy of various places and you will know what I'm talking about.

In Europe, I see some leftovers from the Agricultural Age.  Each nation remembers when its tribe was on top, and it was inevitably when some tribal Caesar took charge.  There is a search at times, a hope that the current leader is such a Caesar.  Oh, for the good old days of fill-in-the-blank the great.

And that is great, perhaps, for the tribe in question.  Not so great for the neighboring tribes.  European history seems full of alliances to contain fill-in-the-blank the great.  Jarad Diamond in Guns, Gems and Steel included Europe’s many mountain chains that divided as a strength of Europe.  They were not united by the two great open river valleys in China.  Thus they contended with each other, were always striving, learned to be strong.

Another problem with Caesars is a tendency to be loyal to the military and the elites, not to the people.  They got strong by allying with the strong.  It took a Napoleon to complete the French Revolution.  My favorite Napoleon quote was why he did not favor a democracy for France.  “Who do you think I am, George Washington?”  To let go of absolute power...

When I see an instinct towards authoritarianism, or a rebellion for democracy, it is an old basic drive.  The people are against the elite selfishness, with the elites being the bad guys.  Tiananmen Square, Hong Kong, now Thailand, it is perpetual seemingly.

So seeing a cry for soviets for the people, I see a contradiction.  The Soviet Union was into perpetuating the power of the party, of the elite.  I could see an energy favoring the people.  An energy seeking a new Caesar is something else entirely.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-18-2020, 10:47 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-18-2020, 12:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-17-2020, 07:15 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-17-2020, 04:00 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: If Trump wins, the Republican party will become America's party because it will have no other choice than to become America's party which will result in  the Democratic party being left to their own devices and eventually  their own demise.

The Republicans have to get rid of Trump, the Trump enablers, the Trump base, the racist tendency and the elitist tendency.  That, and they have to wait for the turnings to go selfish again.  It will take that long to rebuild after the 'get rid of' phase anyway.

Of course, there is always the chance that the Trump base will come out on top of the Republicans struggle for control of the party.  If that is the case, and the base still seems dedicated enough to the racist cause that it might happen, the party goes down to a non contender status.  Trump could prove a looser, but the core of the strongest conservative faction.

We already came out on top of the struggle for control over the party. The Republican party knows that it can't win without us and the Trump supporters and the Evangelicals these days. You really have to start paying attention to what you write about us and our so called tendencies compared to the tendencies that we can see and directly associate with you and the Democratic side.

There's more than a grain of truth in this.  Bill Clinton singlehandedly destroyed the bond between the working class and the Democratic Party.  The people who suffered then haven't forgotten.  On the other hand, it's getting more and more obvious that the Trump Train was and remains a massive confidence game, and that will have implications in the future.  Bernie Sanders already has the code to reverse this faux pas, and someone both younger and equally charismatic will emerge -- of that I'm certain. When and who are the only unknowns.

Well, I figure if we come out of this with a rock solid Republican Senate and a rock solid Republican House then it's just a matter of time before the party of the Hamlets and Macbeth's implode. I hope you're prepared for violence and a very rough 4T as the American Right begins to pull the rug out from under the feet of the Washington elite and opts to remain idle as Rome burns. I don't think its going to matter how young and charismatic a Marxist is at this point or down the road either.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-18-2020, 10:49 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-18-2020, 02:39 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-17-2020, 08:43 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-16-2020, 04:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I can tell that Isoko doesn't live here.

I can say the same about you, and be more accurate in doing so.  You are part of the alternate truth squad, who have demonized fact over opinion for so long, you can't tell the difference anymore.  RW and social media have more in common with Soviet Pravda than they do with reality. I assume they are your source of "news".

You assume??? Is there a Liberal around here who really knows anything at this point?? Let's see, we have Facebook and Twitter censoring/banning  conservatives and banning press releases  related to Biden and you're telling me  that  we're associated with the alternate truth squad. I watch Fox news and I check out their competition to see if they've changed or still the same. So, what's your opinion worth to me, has it's value changed over fifteen years.

H-m-m-m.  My point made and confirmed. Thanks.

Your welcome. Now, you run a long with Facebook, Twitter, Google the national channels, a group of billionaires with interests in the Green New Deal, a group of billionaires with interests in trade with China, a group of corrupt politicians who have been selling out America for years, a bunch of Marxist institutions and a Hamlet/Macbeth government that's in over its head in debt.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-18-2020, 06:16 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Enough Americans have figured out what President Trump really is and despise him enough that they will vote for Joe Biden. "Establishment" wins against someone that the Establishment can successfully depict as a dangerous demagogue. Most polling indicates that he stands to lose in the range of 7% to 17% by margin. Such ranges between a defeat on the scale of the loser in the 1988 and 2008  for a lesser defeat and the defeat of Hoover by FDR in 1932. The larger numbers are more recent and suggest the collapse of a failing campaign.

All previous 4T's have redefined what America is, and this one will be no exception. You are welcome to believe what you want, but you would be wrong.

I doubt it, Biden isn't even close to being in the same league a FDR. FDR was handicapped but his mind was sharp. I don't think this is a good time for the media to pull off an epic hood wink myself. Like I said, you stand to lose the bulk of the country over it. I don't care if you starve to death. I don't care if the people in New York aren't free to leave their homes for years. I don't care if Wall Street goes broke and disappears over night. I don't care if Washington, DC ends up being looted and burned to the ground. I don't care if a bunch of blue cities turn into war zones. America will unite, establish an interim government, organize it's armies and establish the rule of law/ law and order within its territories. We can repeat history again and boot the Liberal's like our ancestor's booted the Brits and leave the fascists and socialists fighting over the cities alone for years as they're slaughtering themselves. I feel bad for the sheeple Democrats but that's what happens to sheeple.

[Eric the Green]

(10-19-2020, 10:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-18-2020, 06:16 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Enough Americans have figured out what President Trump really is and despise him enough that they will vote for Joe Biden. "Establishment" wins against someone that the Establishment can successfully depict as a dangerous demagogue. Most polling indicates that he stands to lose in the range of 7% to 17% by margin. Such ranges between a defeat on the scale of the loser in the 1988 and 2008  for a lesser defeat and the defeat of Hoover by FDR in 1932. The larger numbers are more recent and suggest the collapse of a failing campaign.

All previous 4T's have redefined what America is, and this one will be no exception. You are welcome to believe what you want, but you would be wrong.

I doubt it, Biden isn't even close to being in the same league a FDR. FDR was handicapped but his mind was sharp. I don't think this is a good time for the media to pull off an epic hood wink myself. Like I said, you stand to lose the bulk of the country over it. I don't care if you starve to death. I don't care if the people in New York aren't free to leave their homes for years. I don't care if Wall Street goes broke and disappears over night. I don't care if Washington, DC ends up being looted and burned to the ground. I don't care if a bunch of blue cities turn into war zones. America will unite, establish an interim government, organize it's armies and establish the rule of law/ law and order within its territories. We can repeat history again and boot the Liberal's like our ancestor's booted the Brits and leave the fascists and socialists fighting over the cities alone for years as they're slaughtering themselves. I feel bad for the sheeple Democrats but that's what happens to sheeple.

Well, I guess you'll still have access to the sea through the Gulf Coast. Best wishes for your new interim government of fools.

It's true Liberals tend to squabble with each other, but there is some tendency for red Americans to do that too. Last time the Confederacy almost broke up after it got started. It's mostly the same kind of folks this time, so I dunno how well you'll stay together as your brains drain away and you are left with no-one but poor, rednecked uneducated boors.

[Eric the Green]

(10-19-2020, 10:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-18-2020, 10:49 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-18-2020, 02:39 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-17-2020, 08:43 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-16-2020, 04:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I can tell that Isoko doesn't live here.

I can say the same about you, and be more accurate in doing so.  You are part of the alternate truth squad, who have demonized fact over opinion for so long, you can't tell the difference anymore.  RW and social media have more in common with Soviet Pravda than they do with reality. I assume they are your source of "news".

You assume??? Is there a Liberal around here who really knows anything at this point?? Let's see, we have Facebook and Twitter censoring/banning  conservatives and banning press releases  related to Biden and you're telling me  that  we're associated with the alternate truth squad. I watch Fox news and I check out their competition to see if they've changed or still the same. So, what's your opinion worth to me, has it's value changed over fifteen years.

H-m-m-m.  My point made and confirmed. Thanks.

Your welcome. Now, you run a long with Facebook, Twitter, Google the national channels, a group of billionaires with interests in the Green New Deal, a group of billionaires with interests in trade with China, a group of corrupt politicians who have been selling out America for years, a bunch of Marxist institutions and a Hamlet/Macbeth government that's in over its head in debt.

Ha, I think we'll leave all the debt to you guys. Your side created it, after all.

Hamlet/MacBeth is what we've got. Your side is MacBeth, our side is Hamlet. Now that is the most obvious statement I can think of.

It's like the W.B. Yates poem Kenneth Clark and Brian Rush used to quote, although I don't think Brian quoted this part:

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity" Today is becoming more and more like "between the wars" in the last saecular go-round.

“And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,  slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?”

https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015...no-slouch/

[Classic-Xer]

(10-19-2020, 11:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-19-2020, 10:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-18-2020, 10:49 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-18-2020, 02:39 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-17-2020, 08:43 AM)David Horn Wrote: I can say the same about you, and be more accurate in doing so.  You are part of the alternate truth squad, who have demonized fact over opinion for so long, you can't tell the difference anymore.  RW and social media have more in common with Soviet Pravda than they do with reality. I assume they are your source of "news".

You assume??? Is there a Liberal around here who really knows anything at this point?? Let's see, we have Facebook and Twitter censoring/banning  conservatives and banning press releases  related to Biden and you're telling me  that  we're associated with the alternate truth squad. I watch Fox news and I check out their competition to see if they've changed or still the same. So, what's your opinion worth to me, has it's value changed over fifteen years.

H-m-m-m.  My point made and confirmed. Thanks.

Your welcome. Now, you run a long with Facebook, Twitter, Google the national channels, a group of billionaires with interests in the Green New Deal, a group of billionaires with interests in trade with China, a group of corrupt politicians who have been selling out America for years, a bunch of Marxist institutions and a Hamlet/Macbeth government that's in over its head in debt.

Ha, I think we'll leave all the debt to you guys. You side created it, after all.

Hamlet/MacBeth is what we've got. Your side is MacBeth, our side is Hamlet. Now that is the most obvious statement I can think of.

It's like the W.B. Yates poem Kenneth Clark and Brian Rush used to quote, although I don't think Brian quoted this part:

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity" Today is becoming more and more like "between the wars" in the last saecular go-round.

“And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,  slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?”

https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015...no-slouch/

I'd say 80 years of Progressive politics/policies and agreements with foreign powers and foreign institutions created most of it myself. I always thought the American capitol should be located further inland myself. We aren't the GOP/ the Macbeth's. We're the independent Republican base that the GOP needs to win national elections that the GOP has already lost in a way. I don't know what makes them think they can have it both ways but they'll learn when they lose their jobs. America will also get a much clearer picture of what the Democrats and the elites are about as well. Like I said, a strong group of Republican Senators and a strong group of Republican Congressmen is all we need in Washington vs the Fascist Marxist/DNC/GOP coalition representing the Democratic party these days. You're right about Fascism being on the ballot, you're just wrong about the side that truly represents it today.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-19-2020, 11:13 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-19-2020, 10:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-18-2020, 06:16 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Enough Americans have figured out what President Trump really is and despise him enough that they will vote for Joe Biden. "Establishment" wins against someone that the Establishment can successfully depict as a dangerous demagogue. Most polling indicates that he stands to lose in the range of 7% to 17% by margin. Such ranges between a defeat on the scale of the loser in the 1988 and 2008  for a lesser defeat and the defeat of Hoover by FDR in 1932. The larger numbers are more recent and suggest the collapse of a failing campaign.

All previous 4T's have redefined what America is, and this one will be no exception. You are welcome to believe what you want, but you would be wrong.

I doubt it, Biden isn't even close to being in the same league a FDR. FDR was handicapped but his mind was sharp. I don't think this is a good time for the media to pull off an epic hood wink myself. Like I said, you stand to lose the bulk of the country over it. I don't care if you starve to death. I don't care if the people in New York aren't free to leave their homes for years. I don't care if Wall Street goes broke and disappears over night. I don't care if Washington, DC ends up being looted and burned to the ground. I don't care if a bunch of blue cities turn into war zones. America will unite, establish an interim government, organize it's armies and establish the rule of law/ law and order within its territories. We can repeat history again and boot the Liberal's like our ancestor's booted the Brits and leave the fascists and socialists fighting over the cities alone for years as they're slaughtering themselves. I feel bad for the sheeple Democrats but that's what happens to sheeple.

Well, I guess you'll still have access to the sea through the Gulf Coast. Best wishes for your new interim government of fools.

It's true Liberals tend to squabble with each other, but there is some tendency for red Americans to do that too. Last time the Confederacy almost broke up after it got started. It's mostly the same kind of folks this time, so I dunno how well you'll stay together as your brains drain away and you are left with no-one but poor, rednecked uneducated boors.

We are like oil and water and so is the Democratic party. The glue that keep the Democratic party together is federal funding and the power and authority that the federal government represents today.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-20-2020, 12:56 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: We are like oil and water and so is the Democratic party. The glue that keep the Democratic party together is federal funding and the power and authority that the federal government represents today.

We can agree on the oil and water observation.  Not a lot else.

At the end of LBJ's time, the Democrats had been In power too long, and they had taken their philosophy too far.  Now, the shoe is on the other foot.  There ought to be somebody arguing for low taxes and small government, but the argument ought to be taken seriously not settled out of habit.  It can be taken too far, and has been.  The Republicans have an affinity for the elites and racists.  As a result we have endured the extreme division of wealth, an oppression of minorities that came to effect the working poor, and effect even those who wanted to join the professional elites by going to college.  It is past time to work for the worker.

Now these are old arguments.  You will ignore them as usual, and repeat your arguments that the Democrats have done a rotten job during the time the Republicans were dominant.  Yes, it was a pain fighting against the tide.  Well, the tide turns.  Time to talk policy, not party.

[David Horn]

(10-19-2020, 09:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-18-2020, 10:47 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-18-2020, 12:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: We already came out on top of the struggle for control over the party. The Republican party knows that it can't win without us and the Trump supporters and the Evangelicals these days. You really have to start paying attention to what you write about us and our so called tendencies compared to the tendencies that we can see and directly associate with you and the Democratic side.

There's more than a grain of truth in this.  Bill Clinton singlehandedly destroyed the bond between the working class and the Democratic Party.  The people who suffered then haven't forgotten.  On the other hand, it's getting more and more obvious that the Trump Train was and remains a massive confidence game, and that will have implications in the future.  Bernie Sanders already has the code to reverse this faux pas, and someone both younger and equally charismatic will emerge -- of that I'm certain. When and who are the only unknowns.

Well, I figure if we come out of this with a rock solid Republican Senate and a rock solid Republican House then it's just a matter of time before the party of the Hamlets and Macbeth's implode. I hope you're prepared for violence and a very rough 4T as the American Right begins to pull the rug out from under the feet of the Washington elite and opts to remain idle as Rome burns. I don't think its going to matter how young and charismatic a Marxist is at this point or down the road either.

Today, the GOP is the problem. Its been the problem for a long time.  The Dems are a problem too, but a smaller one.  The GOP has been in bed with big business since the day it was formed. Big business doesn't need an advocate.  Everyone else does -- especially lower paid employees everywhere.  I know you feel that the GOP represents you, but putting yourself in the same class with the known problem will be a net negative in the future -- one you might not escape.

Expect a higher minimum wage, major tax increases and tighter regulation.  All are overdue.