Generational Dynamics World View

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-06-2020, 11:16 AM)John J. Xenakis Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 08:42 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: So if you have any evidence of any kind of fascist violence by the Boogaloo Bois that comes anywhere close to the massive multi-city fascist violence by antifa-blm, let me know.  I'll take a look at it.

I specifically asked Butler to provide evidence of his accusations about the Boobaloo Bois, but he ignored that request.  He provided no evidence but repeated the unsupported accusations.  This is the way the left always works.

I don't believe Boogaloo Bois are into fascist violence.  Marxist violence, sort of.  Both the BB and classic marxists believe the capitalistic democratic system is broken beyond repair by means short of violence and worked / work towards revolution / boogaloo.  However, marxism has an elaborate ideology where I have seen no evidence of BB ideology beyond stating their beliefs.

Many people consider the Boogaloo Bois right wing, but I consider them akin to marxists and thus maybe properly left.  However, they are outside the usual red / blue divide.  While the left - right language works well enough within the limits established under the assumption the system has not yet broken down beyond repair, it breaks down if you go beyond that point.  I'm not sure the BB should be properly described as left or right.

Classic fascists, on the other hand, were political parties which for a time competed in elections as a step towards power.  They become the state, the establishment.  There was a reason the Nazi and the Communists disliked each other.  I don't blame them, really.  I don't much care for Nazi or Communists either.  But the two are quite different, as the BB are quite different.

I am not particular an expert on your redefinition of fascist.  It seems that 'fascist violence' is any violence you don't care for.  You use 'fascist' like another cuss word, a sign of something dirty you don't care for.  No real political meaning at all.

That being said, you might look over this bit from the Department of Justice.

The DOJ Wrote:“This case can only be understood as a disturbing example of the old adage, ‘The enemy of your enemy is your friend,’” said Assistant Attorney General John C. Demers for the National Security Division.  “As alleged in the complaint, these defendants sought to use violence against the police, other government officials and government property as part of their desire to overthrow the government.  While planning these activities, the defendants met individuals whom they believed to be members of the foreign terrorist group Hamas.  Thinking that they shared the same desire to harm the United States, they sought to join forces and provide support, including in the form of weapons accessories, to Hamas.  They failed.  No matter what witch’s brew of ideological motivations inspire those who seek to engage in terrorist activity and harm our country and our fellow citizens, the National Security Division is committed to identifying and holding them accountable.  I want to thank the agents, analysts, and prosecutors who are responsible for this case and ensuring that these defendants could not carry out their deadly plans.”

“Michael Solomon and Benjamin Teeter proclaim themselves to be members of the Boogaloo Bois, a group that espouses a violent ideology and an objective to overthrow the government.  The defendants believed their anti-U.S. government views aligned with those of Hamas, a foreign terrorist organization, and actively developed plans to carry out violence in Minnesota and elsewhere,” said U.S. Attorney Erica H. MacDonald.  “Whenever extremist ideologies, regardless of their roots, move into the realm of violence, the FBI and its Joint Terrorism Task Force stands at the ready to prevent potentially deadly and destructive plots.”

"The FBI is committed to stopping acts of violence against law enforcement officers or anyone else in our communities. According to the criminal complaint, the defendants in this case were willing to work with Hamas, a foreign terrorist organization, in order to get money for potential acts of violence here in the U.S.," said Jill Sanborn, Assistant Director of the FBI's Counterterrorism Division.  "The FBI's Minneapolis Field Office demonstrated that we will continue working with our law enforcement partners to detect and stop such activity and protect public safety."

This is quite consistent with my understanding of the Boogaloo Bois, willing to use violence to overthrow the government, a desire to start the boogaloo, a specific case where they worked with traditional foreign enemies to achieve that end.

To some extent both they and Antifa have reasons not to proclaim their motivations openly.  Both use violence.  Both have run afoul of common terms of use of social media.  Both have reasons to try to hide their immediate plans from law enforcement.  (The above DoJ quote clearly illustrates why.  If you do not keep your plans to yourself, there is a good chance the plans will fall into the hands of a government informer.)  What one believes is not necessarily what everyone believes within such organizations.  Individual groups can vary widely.

For example, the above example shows two members of a militia movement got arrested as armed felons.  They represent many Trump supporters traveling to black neighborhoods to provoke and commit violence.  While they call themselves militia, and as they are adult males of military age they actually are part of the militia, their beliefs are not that of all others who call themselves militia.  (Edit:  Or maybe not.  As felons unable to legally carry arms, they may not be welcome as members of the true militia as defined by the US Code.). This does not mean all Trump supporters or 'militia' members are members of the Boogaloo Bois.  I would not expect a Trump supporter to want to start a boogaloo against Trump.  Is the DoJ going to arrest all males of military age as a result of those two men?  I kind of doubt it.  You can't assume the motives and actions of one group applies to a wide groups of others.  

(09-06-2020, 11:16 AM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: I vaguely recall that Butler once referred to Brian Stelter as an "expert" at CNN.

I haven't made a study of Brian Stelter in particular.  I have no desire to review particular journalists.  I will comment on the 'how they all think' extended to 'how they all act' characterization you use.  That is common for an ideologue.  Smear them wholesale.  If you cannot deal well with their real and oft stated motivations, make something up that makes them look bad.  Me, if their real and oft stated motivations are more believable than the ideologues lies, I'll go with the stated motivations, especially if they are consistent with their actions.  You have proven yourself so poor at understanding motivations that I have no reason to take any motivation you claim seriously.  No one who lives outside your bubble will.  You are not taken seriously for a reason.