Election 2020

[Eric the Green]

(11-12-2020, 08:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 10:13 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 05:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Biden represents the old values ( FDR/ LBJ/ Obama values) or failing values as you say. Popularity isn't much of a factor when it comes to ones actual abilities to get anything done. You can say what you want but Trump got things done. We're still more or less a fifty country that's more or less dead locked which is a far cry from where FDR was, LBJ was and Obama was back in 08'.

Racism and white supremacy is the old values.  Being in favor of the working man is the new.  Science over fantasy is the new.

You are sort of correct but mostly wrong in saying popularity isn’t a factor.  The dominant factor of the unraveling is that there was a bigger white supremacy vote than minority and worker vote.  As a result, jobs went overseas, benefits cut, labor unions weakened, and the younger generations sunk into poverty as domestic spending was consistently cut.  The red were centered on the Neo con, the racists, the elite, the religious.  Culture war issues were put ahead of the working man and the minorities.

It doesn’t look like that is going to continue.

Let me weigh-in with a third opinion.  The old values are the Reagan neoliberal fantasies that we're all alone and we either make it or we're failures.  It's been sold in many flavors for the last 40+ years, and is now perceived wisdom.   Trump's followers believe it, even though it hurts them every day.  But the competitive model is now the only model, so they cheer-on their side and take a hit for the team.  It's zero-sum, and they need to win!

If the Dems ever succeed, it will be with a cooperative model that allows everyone to gain, not just a few.  First, the idea needs to be believed, and that's where the challenge lies.  Remember, Goldwater sold the neoliberal fantasy in 1964 and got slaughtered. New ideas don't just take hold on their own.

You're really talking about self reliance and our commitment to self reliance and independence since the two go hand in hand. I get the impression that you don't like us very much for that reason  and view us as a threat to to an ideology which cultivates and requires the opposite for it to work. Well, guess what, there's 60 some million of us and 10 million more who want to be like us who showed up on election day during a national pandemic that half the country has been traumatized by its existence.

I tend to think that it was ideology that has played the major role. No doubt people's lifestyle in cities tends to condition people there to be less persuaded by the self-reliance ideology than people's lifestyle in rural areas. But the self-reliance ("neo-liberal, free-market") ideology has been clearly spelled out, and framed as opposition to government. Even though conservatives don't really oppose government when it comes to the things they want government to do for them, like put up various barriers to other countries, or supporting "law and order" and repressing drugs and outlawing abortion and supporting wars and the military and imposing their religion on us and stuff like that. But the temptation of the slogan is still very persuasive, because conservatives vote on their fears and their wrong values and don't bother too much with logic. So "less government", "government is the problem", means government should not be requiring a conservative to have his hard-earned, self-reliantly-earned money "stolen" from him to pay for those "lazy" (you know who) people who refuse to work and are dependent on that problematic government. And the scare-words "socialism" and "law and order" and "2nd amendment" are most effective in arousing the fears that stoke this self-reliance ideology.

And this ideology makes the believers in self-reliance and independence feel better and feel superior to those "dependent" liberals. This is Classic Xer's constant refrain. I think it is ideology, and it is also reinforced by lifestyles and greater access to culture, education and diversity in urban areas as opposed to the parochial and provincial atmosphere in rural areas, plus the sheer racial, ethnic and religious diversity in cities, and especially in many coastal and border areas that are closer to the outside world and more connected to it than the contiguous red-state heartland is. But there are also people who believe in either ideology who live in the opposing region too, although not too many in the most rural and most urban areas.

Before the sixties, and especially a century or so ago, heartland people were often genuine populists who voted for what they would now call "socialist" programs. The blacks were well-repressed and didn't alarm people with their liberation demands yet. We've always had fears of immigrants now and then, especially non-white ones. But sometimes, like in the "great" America Trump extols, it was pretty-well suppressed. There have been counter-cultures all along, but in the sixties maybe they took their liberation farther and spread it wider than before. Feminism and gay rights especially threatened the male ego. And the Cold War also had solidified anti-communist and anti-socialist opinions. So as the new stronger forces of liberation arose, somehow the neo-liberal ideology appealed to the red state and red county folks more now. And when the charming faux-macho actor appeared, they flocked to his great communication. And now they love the swindler TV star who satirically and openly proclaims his selfish disregard for others, because he gives unrepentant voice to their own similar feelings and prejudices.