Estimating who belongs in S&H's Millennials (not mainstream Millennials)

[Eric the Green]

If the 4T fails, the 2T will not make up for it. The USA will be in decline. I don't know why some people here think we can put things off to the 2T. There is no Awakening without decent fourth and first turnings. No foundation has been created for one, in that case. 2Ts are mainly cultural anyway. A 2T in a country still ruled by trickle-down and prejudice will probably just be an evangelical revival.

4Ts aren't guaranteed to be successful. However, every one of them in anglo-american history has been successful, meaning that the more progressive side won a clear victory, and the nation or its rulers then created conditions in which an Awakening could flourish.

Remember that half-way through a 4T, it may seem like it is failing. That is frequently how it looks. Consider Antietam, Pearl Harbor or Valley Forge. We are half-way through. The 4T will not end until about 2028. You can't say it is over in 2021 or 2025, and then call it a failure. That is not fair to ourselves.

Boomers are still some of the leaders. Blue Boomers will need to step up now and in the next 7 years and do their part, or the 4T will fail. We certainly can't leave things fully in the hands of Gen X and Millennials yet. We certainly can't leave things until an Awakening that won't come IF we leave things to it.

Let's do our part, folks. I helped in the Georgia Senate election, even though I am a youthful 71. Let's get out the youth vote in 2022.

There is no alternative to this view, if we want to have the right attitude toward our saeculum and what we need.

At a minimum: Trickle-down economics must be discarded. Democrats must win enough seats in congress to pass the House's and Biden's current program, and more. Domestic terrorists and violent right-wing rebels must be defeated. A post-conspiracy theory consensus must be created. A possible foreign challenge in circa 2025 must be handled.

[Dustinw5220]

(06-17-2021, 02:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 08:04 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 07:02 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 03:16 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 03:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Those are good questions, to be answered by future generations. Myself I would say 2003 is the start date for Gen Z, but I think Mr. Howe says 2004. The next generations after Alpha, which will be starting in 2025, should follow the pattern of starting about 3-5 years before the next turning. In my 1997 book I postulated that after Gen X, generations would be called by their letters, so if that holds, as it has so far at least partially, then if the next Awakening starts in 2047, then the next nomad Generation, Gen Beta or Gen B, should start around 2044. Since dominant generations start within a year or two of when Neptune enters a cardinal sign, then the next civic generation, Generation C for civic, should start around 2065, when Neptune enters Cancer (that's another C too). The next 3T will probably start closely after that and last until about 2090.

C for Civic, I like that!

How would you say (based on the double rhythm you described/predicted for the cycles of history) Gen Z, Gen Alpha, Gen Beta, and Gen C might be both different and similar compared to the Silent, Boomers, Gen X, and Millennials respectively in the next saeculum (based on what you already predicted, I'm guessing the next Heroes/Civics won't be nearly as tech obsessed as us Millennials, LOL)?

So if the Awakening starts in 2046 instead of 2047 (like you've been saying in the past), then the new Nomads arrive in 2043 instead of 2044, correct (that would make sense, S&H started Gen X in 1961, three years before the start of the Consciousness Revolution)? Also, if the 3T starts in 2066, would the new Heroes/Civics arrive in 2064 instead of 2065 (S&H gave the start date of 1982 for Millennials)?

There is no precise schedule for when generations and turnings start, according to S&H. It depends on events. Of course, sometimes we can look to the planetary cycles for clues about when events will occur. Not always by any means. But the fact that Uranus will oppose Pluto in about the same time during the saeculum as the previous Uranus conjunct Pluto happened, and since this planetary figure and cycle has to do with unexpected, revolutionary and awakening events, then we know the Awakening will start around 2046 or 2047. Awakening events might indeed start to unfold earlier, but these will be like the events of 1962 and 1963. Like during the now-about-to-end saeculum, this Uranus-Pluto planetary figure could again indicate events that would cut the first turning short, and accelerate the Awakening's arrival. But it can't cut it too short. There will need to be at least 18 years for a turning. So for that reason I now think the date 2047 will be the most-likely one. 

But it depends on how soon the 4T ends. Things still look pretty unsettled in 2029-2030 according to the planets, and Mr. Howe is predicting this as well. But perhaps we will decide that the 4T is over in 2028 anyway, or even 2027, since events will be rapidly moving toward a new consensus by then. If so, then a 2046 start date is quite likely for the next 2T, and a 2043 start date for the next nomads is possible too. Sometimes things are still quite unsettled and unstable during the first few years of a first turning.

The double rhythm theory, if it holds, indicates that the next series of generations in the cycle will be more "Apollonian" than "Dionysian" according to some observers. So they will be less romantic and more rational. Crisis and awakening events could be directed more outwardly toward institutional change and foreign affairs. However, this should not be pressed too far. There is always much in common between generations and turnings of the same archetype. It is much more the case that trends jump from one turning to the next turning of the same type. The repeat of the Uranus-Pluto figure accents this probability, in our case. Since the opposition is the full moon of a cycle, the next Awakening will fulfill the ideals and cultural directions of the previous one, and bring them to fuller, more-conscious, and more-constructive and lasting expression.

By the way, experience shows that planetary aspects between the outer planets, although distant, are much more indicative of major events and generations than the closer, faster-moving ones, just because they move slowly and are not over and gone so quickly.

As much as I would HATE if the 4T lasted even a year longer than we thought, I can't say I would be surprised either (especially considering how slowly progress is currently going because of the Republicans).

It would make sense for the generations (and the archetypes applying them) to be more rational in the next saeculum, especially considering how much will still be at stake (such as climate change), how might that affect the culture (and make it either better or worse)? There will still be some passion and romance in the next saeculum though, right?

Also, do you think the double rhythm will still continue to hold even after the next saeculum? Would that mean if the next series of generations in the cycle will be more "Apollonian", the ones in the saeculum after next will be more "Dionysian" again?

Probably. But given the nature of the 22nd century as a time of expanding horizons, world organization and even crusades, maybe an anglo-american Dionysian saeculum that focuses more internally might not fit. So the rhythm might shift or become less clear in the future. Also, from my astrology point of view, the USA might not exist after this current 4T, so the chart of the nation(s) might be different, thus influencing the rhythm and my basis for conceiving the double rhythm and its nature. I know most people here don't believe astrology works, and neither did Mr. Strauss, but I post about it here anyway since it shows interesting patterns for those open to considering them.

That it does.

If the USA doesn't exist anymore by the end of this current 4T, could that be either good or bad depending on which side wins? Could something else take the USA's place even as early as the end of this 4T (circa 2028-2030), even if the Progressive side wins, and could it be better or worse (obviously it would be worse if the Republicans win, I know that all too well)? Also, even if the rhythm possibly changes after the next saeculum, I'm assuming they'll still continue to be generational archetypes and turnings in the 22nd century?

Going back to end/start dates for generations, while I agree that 1882 is probably the more appropriate time to start the Lost Generation, would you officially end the Missionaries in 1881 or 1882 (I think at the very least, FDR was a cusper and had traits of both, rather than being strictly one or the other)? Also, while I definitely agree that 1901 was when the G.I.'s first arrived, do you think it also might be appropriate to extend the Lost a bit into that year as well (there did seem to be at least some people born that year that still had Nomad/Reactive traits, S&H themselves labeled Louis Armstrong as a member of the Lost even though he was born in 1901)? Also, even though the G.I's and the Boomers officially ended and began in 1924 and 1943 respectively, when would you offically begin and end the Silent, 1924-1943 or 1925-1942 like S&H had it (I'm probably thinking WAY too much about this, but the astrology aspect has got me curious/interested and I'm sure there were probably at least still cuspers in both 1924 and 1943)?

[Tim Randal Walker]

Conceivably, a 2T might not seem distinctly Apollan or Dionysan if it was a rather weak 2T. Less intense than the Missionary Awakening, for example. (The corresponding 2T in England seems to have been such a case).

A bleached 2T.

[Tim Randal Walker]

Had a print out for what-was-then an older post to the paleo 4T site. I think I lost the print out when I moved about a decade ago. The 2T in England occurred about the same time as the Missionary Awakening. As I recall, two issues were feminism and socialism, but overall the 2T was tepid.