Trump's people have founded their Party:

[pbrower2a]

(09-16-2021, 06:48 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I haven’t been pitching in as much here lately.  From my perspective the Republican Party has considerable commitment to racism and the elite.  During the unraveling, they had a considerable advantage in seeking elite profit, tax cuts for the rich, sending jobs abroad where you don’t lose profits to high wages, benefits and environmental concerns, and attacking labor, benefits and wages in the US.  As small government and cutting domestic spending was seen as hurting minorities rather than the working poor, the racists were pleased.  As so many problems like infrastructure and the environment were more encountered and obvious in urban areas, the idea that small government didn’t have to solve problems less encountered in rural areas.  This came to hurt when Covid became one of the problems.

Unraveling ways usually are smacked down in a Crisis Era, usually because they lose elite support for being unproductive, costly, and disruptive. This time the economic elites act as if they prefer that people be divided along every imaginable line of identity, that every man be for himself, and that maximal inequality is a desirable end in itself. COVID-19 may be exactly what repudiates 3T patterns in politics and economics. 

The Right abandoned the idea of small government when Small Government no longer served Right ends. Big Government is excellent cover for crony capitalism, wars for profit, union-busting, and the prison-industrial complex. For what it is worth, the libertarian Small Government types are political orphans.        

Quote:Now these aren’t Classic’s problems.  He is not an elite.  He is not a raving racist.  He just is tied by habit to the Republicans and extrapolates his own views onto an imaginary Acirema.  These views are not what I see as the primary Republican / Red threat.  The problem is elites using money to influence government and racism gathering more votes that LBJ gained by pandering towards the blacks.  The elite money and racist votes dominated the unravelling.  With the twin Covid and Floyd triggers, these factors could be reversed in the ongoing crisis

.
At some point, the rural, under-educated part of the white Mountain and deep South will realize that it has been used and that it has gotten nothing from alignment with reactionary interests.   

Quote:But Classic has an idea that the Republicans are for the working man.  I don’t think so.  Oh, they tried to make it so for a while.  For a time when the ‘Tea Party’ was towards its peak, there was an attempt at the Republican’s main stream divorcing itself from the elite influence.  From my view, this died with Trump.  He brought the elite and racist elements back together.

Success of non-white, non-Christian, and non-straight people sticks in the craw. The problem is that whites of the Mountain and deep South are themselves oppressed people. I recognize that it was long ago, but just before he died, Dr. Martin Luther King was planning a trip to Appalachia to address the economic hardships already known in the area. I cannot say that he would have been successful at it, but oppression is oppression. At the least, middle-class Hispanics seem to care about their poorer brethren. Bourgeois blacks seek to improve the lives of poor blacks. What do middle-class and upper-class whites do for poor whites in the Mountain and Deep South? Nothing!  

Quote:But at any rate, arguing with Classic doesn’t seem to be much worth it.  Attention should stay focused on the real problems, the influence of money on government, and systematic racism.

He often shows beyond any doubt that he does not understand what he is talking about.

[Eric the Green]

(09-16-2021, 06:48 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I haven’t been pitching in as much here lately.  From my perspective the Republican Party has considerable commitment to racism and the elite.  During the unraveling, they had a considerable advantage in seeking elite profit, tax cuts for the rich, sending jobs abroad where you don’t lose profits to high wages, benefits and environmental concerns, and attacking labor, benefits and wages in the US.  As small government and cutting domestic spending was seen as hurting minorities rather than the working poor, the racists were pleased.  As so many problems like infrastructure and the environment were more encountered and obvious in urban areas, the idea that small government didn’t have to solve problems less encountered in rural areas.  This came to hurt when Covid became one of the problems.

Now these aren’t Classic’s problems.  He is not an elite.  He is not a raving racist.  He just is tied by habit to the Republicans and extrapolates his own views onto an imaginary Acirema.  These views are not what I see as the primary Republican / Red threat.  The problem is elites using money to influence government and racism gathering more votes that LBJ gained by pandering towards the blacks.  The elite money and racist votes dominated the unravelling.  With the twin Covid and Floyd triggers, these factors could be reversed in the ongoing crisis.

But Classic has an idea that the Republicans are for the working man.  I don’t think so.  Oh, they tried to make it so for a while.  For a time when the ‘Tea Party’ was towards its peak, there was an attempt at the Republican’s main stream divorcing itself from the elite influence.  From my view, this died with Trump.  He brought the elite and racist elements back together.

But at any rate, arguing with Classic doesn’t seem to be much worth it.  Attention should stay focused on the real problems, the influence of money on government, and systematic racism.

The many Classic Xers in Acirema are easy and willing pawns for racist neo-liberal elites and policy-makers. The damage they cause is no longer confined to urban areas. The rural voters, the ranchers and hunters etc., may still oppose the "federal land grab" and oppose regulations against motorbikes and oppose increasing wolf populations and protecting endangered species, and vote for whoever protects their guns, but the policies they vote for are causing much land erosion and degradation of their lands. Wildfires, floods, droughts and heat waves are making water ever more scarce, and farmlands and ranchlands are threatened. It is for the Republican pawns to decide whether saving their own lands and their own fates is more important than hanging on to their ethnic and religious prejudices and ideologies that appeal to their self-reliance and identity. 

It is not so much the elites now, but their willing pawns who through their votes keep in power the short-sighted, near-term focus of policy in our society. The pawns like Classic Xer are the ones who keep narrow-minded policies alive regardless of threats from pandemics and climate change, and it is they who support Republican voter suppression of democracy, even more than elites. Their heros like Larry Elder appeal to them by promising such short-sighted policies as lower gas taxes and an end to vaccine mandates. Many of the elites are smart enough now to know that environmental destruction and raging pandemics do not support their bottom line, and that dollars are not black, brown, red, yellow or white. For example, General Motors is now adapting to the need for electric cars. So I put more responsibility on the rank and file voters who in rural counties vote 80-90% Republican than upon the elites these days, even though many of the elites are still also corrupt and short-sighted as well, and still benefit greatly from neo-liberal/classic liberal policies.

But none of that means that arguing with Classic Xer is an adequate and productive strategy to create better policies that will benefit America and the world in the long-run.

[pbrower2a]

This is obscene in its blasphemy:



Source of this language, set to some wonderful music (an aria from Handel's Messiah):






It would be blasphemous even if it were applied to St. Francis of Assisi, Abraham Lincoln, Sir Winston Churchill, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, or Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Eric the Green]

Hallelujah, for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. The kingdoms of the world have become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ, and He shall reign forever. King of kings and Lord of lords. What does that mean? Not any particular politician ruling, but that the high loving Spirit of the cosmos and Truth, Beauty and Goodness directs the decisions of policy makers.

[pbrower2a]

One thing is certain: there 's nothing Christ-like about Donald Trump.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-16-2021, 09:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The Right abandoned the idea of small government when Small Government no longer served Right ends.

Not sure it is that abandoned.  When you look at environmentalism, infrastructure and Covid, they are still pushing in the don't solve the problem direction.  They may have changed their language, but they would still prefer not to pay the cost of taking action in such areas.

[pbrower2a]

(09-16-2021, 05:20 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-16-2021, 09:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The Right abandoned the idea of small government when Small Government no longer served Right ends.

Not sure it is that abandoned.  When you look at environmentalism, infrastructure and Covid, they are still pushing in the don't solve the problem direction.  They may have changed their language, but they would still prefer not to pay the cost of taking action in such areas.

They are as big spenders, if on crony capitalism, military expenditures, prisons, and business subsidies. They are all for infrastructure so long as monopolistic profiteers are in command -- and they are delighted to use the treasury to sweeten deals. They can be just as reckless in spending.

[David Horn]

(09-16-2021, 05:20 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-16-2021, 09:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The Right abandoned the idea of small government when Small Government no longer served Right ends.

Not sure it is that abandoned.  When you look at environmentalism, infrastructure and Covid, they are still pushing in the don't solve the problem direction.  They may have changed their language, but they would still prefer not to pay the cost of taking action in such areas.

This seems more a case of crony capitalism to me.  They opose anything that discomforts the comfortable, but seem to have no trouble discomforting the poor and marginalized.  Why the the second quartile seems bent on persecuting the bottom quartile has mostly to do with status.  The top 1%, on the other hand, are all about the Benjamiins

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-17-2021, 11:56 AM)David Horn Wrote: This seems more a case of crony capitalism to me.  They opose anything that discomforts the comfortable, but seem to have no trouble discomforting the poor and marginalized.  Why the the second quartile seems bent on persecuting the bottom quartile has mostly to do with status.  The top 1%, on the other hand, are all about the Benjamiins

Agreed. The Republicans have been advocates over the unraveling of military spending, the Democrats domestic. The Republicans favor the elites and the racist.

[David Horn]

(09-17-2021, 06:10 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-17-2021, 11:56 AM)David Horn Wrote: This seems more a case of crony capitalism to me.  They oppose anything that discomforts the comfortable, but seem to have no trouble discomforting the poor and marginalized.  Why the second quartile seems bent on persecuting the bottom quartile has mostly to do with status.  The top 1%, on the other hand, are all about the Benjamins

Agreed.  The Republicans have been advocates over the unraveling of military spending, the Democrats domestic.  The Republicans favor the elites and the racist.

The incessant wailing about the cost of the $3.5Trillion-over-10-years plan is humorous considering the $7 Trillion we'll certainly spend on the Pentagon.  Add the cost of Federal "law enforcement" and it's even worse.

[pbrower2a]

Let's remember that the bungling of COVID-19 under Trump has already been as costly at least in lives as a war... and ventilator use isn't cheap. Trump's followers are going to cost us a pretty penny for the Michigan plot and the Capitol Putsch.

[pbrower2a]

There has been much talk on the Hard Right about a rally today on behalf of so-called political prisoners from the Capitol Putsch.

WASHINGTON (AP) — The fence around the Capitol is back up. The District of Columbia’s police department is at the ready. The U.S. Capitol Police have requested assistance from nearby law enforcement agencies including the National Guard.


The Capitol Police are taking no chances as they prepare for Saturday’s rally at the Capitol in support of rioters imprisoned after the violent Jan. 6 insurrection. They’re working to avoid a repeat of the pre-inauguration attack.

Persistent attempts to rewrite the narrative of the violence and panic of the day, and the increasing volatility behind the lie that the 2020 election was stolen have made it impossible to predict what may happen this weekend. After all, law enforcement was only expecting a free speech protest the day Trump supporters stormed the Capitol in an effort to disrupt the certification of Joe Biden’s victory.

Capitol Police Chief Tom Manger said at a news conference Friday it was difficult to say whether threats of violence for the Saturday event are credible, but “chatter” online and elsewhere has been similar to intelligence that was missed in January.


A permit for the protest allows 700 people. Manger said he believes the most likely possibility for violence will involve clashes between the protesters and counter-protesters. Police are also preparing for the possibility that some demonstrators may arrive with weapons.


On Saturday morning, police were already working to separate the handful of Trump supporters and counter-protesters who had arrived hours before the rally was supposed to kick off. Hundreds of law enforcement officers were being brought into the city and were gearing up at a staging area as large dump trucks and cement barricades lined the streets around the Capitol, outside of the fenced area.

......

Congress is out of session and no lawmakers were expected to be in the building Saturday. Biden was in Delaware for the weekend.


Many commenters on online platforms like Telegram that are popular with the far right disavowed the rally, saying they believed law enforcement was promoting the event to entrap Trump supporters. Some urged their followers not to attend an event they said was secretly organized by the FBI.

At the same time, however, some commenters continued to promote rallies planned in cities and state capitals across the country.


Online discussion before Jan. 6 was intense. But that type of chatter hasn’t been replicated so far on social media, with hashtags promoting the event gaining little traction.

https://apnews.com/article/prisons-violence-capitol-siege-law-enforcement-agencies-us-national-guard-4dd5188eeb846965b88073f549982974

[Classic-Xer]

(09-16-2021, 06:48 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: But at any rate, arguing with Classic doesn’t seem to be much worth it.  Attention should stay focused on the real problems, the influence of money on government, and systematic racism.

That's right, you can't win an argument with an American who knows better than to cling and go along with the elitist/racist Blue narrative that's being exposed and falling apart.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-18-2021, 10:15 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Let's remember that the bungling of COVID-19 under Trump has already been as costly at least in lives as a war... and ventilator use isn't cheap.  Trump's followers are going to cost us a pretty penny for the Michigan plot and the Capitol Putsch.

Once again, where's the sign of rational thought? You seem to be grasping and flailing at the moment. What's up, are you feeling desperate or something?

[pbrower2a]

(09-18-2021, 12:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-18-2021, 10:15 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Let's remember that the bungling of COVID-19 under Trump has already been as costly at least in lives as a war... and ventilator use isn't cheap.  Trump's followers are going to cost us a pretty penny for the Michigan plot and the Capitol Putsch.

Once again, where's the sign of rational thought? You seem to be grasping and flailing at the moment. What's up, are you feeling desperate or something?

More American deaths than any war in American history except for the American Civil War.

Do you know what the cost of a day's use of a ventilator is?

The Trump followers in the Michigan Plot and the January 6 Putsch are going to cost big money in prosecution, and if convicted, the cost of incarceration.

[pbrower2a]

(09-18-2021, 12:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-16-2021, 06:48 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: But at any rate, arguing with Classic doesn’t seem to be much worth it.  Attention should stay focused on the real problems, the influence of money on government, and systematic racism.

That's right, you can't win an argument with an American who knows better than to cling and  go along with the elitist/racist Blue narrative that's being exposed and  falling apart.

I'm not denying that you are an American, but I know well that you don't know as much about America as you pretend. 

Some elites are legitimate and some aren't. The Chicago Symphony Orchestra consists of elite musicians because anything less would be inadequate. The Art Institute of Chicago has no schlock paintings. Major-league athletes are as a strict rule the best of the best at their sport. College professors are the among the elite of academics because people less learned would be inadequate as college teachers. Medicine? Law? Engineering? CPA's? You guessed it. Hollywood film stars? Nobody plunks down real money to watch a cheaply-produced movie created swiftly and ineptly in someone's basement unless it is porn, in which quality is of little concern.

Have you ever read Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers?  It explains much. By now the standards of achievements in many fields of endeavor are so high that only those who have prepared extensively so that they can have a credible presence in those endeavors have a chance to perform at the top level and get paid well for it. Whether one speaks of ballet dancers, Hollywood film stars, members of first-rate symphony orchestras, one needs on average 10,000 hours of preparation. Such comes at great sacrifice, mostly of not doing other things. If one is to be a concert pianist one doesn't watch huge amounts of TV or play lots of video games, tool around in cars, or get involved in something incompatible, like playing soccer. The great soccer stars and auto racers don't spend much time playing a piano, either. One can excel -- but only at the expense of a normal life, and possibly a varied life. Raw talent is not enough; there are no "naturals" at anything requiring consummate skill. 

A rap on classical musicians is that they are lousy lovers. Obviously they are more involved in practicing their instruments than in dating. 

The price of a normal or even varied life is that one fails to excel at anything. Many have no chance because they have spent all their lives doing things at which mediocrity is acceptable because society needs multitudes of people doing those tasks. Think of fast-food workers; nobody needs great skill to work in such places. People able to do something else typically leave for something else  that pays better and allows one to develop more lucrative skills. That's fine for McDonalds'. The food that it offers is highly standardized and predictable, which means that a Big Mac will be just the same in Springfield, Missouri as in Springfield, Massachusetts. If you want to be a great chef you will need to go into some other place. If you want really good food you will need to go some place where the chefs run the kitchen and nobody needs a manual. You will also pay more to eat in such a place, because the chefs are well paid and the raw food is more costly. You will also remember your experience in that high-priced restaurant, and if you are making anything like what I think you are making as a skilled blue-collar worker, then you have surely experienced that. "Chez Mac" is convenient, predictable, safe, and inexpensive. If I am going on a road trip I eat much in fast-food places. On some fall colors tour I am going to take pictures of glorious fall foliage, and food will not matter that much except that I have some.  

We obviously need far more farm workers (which may explain why farm families had lots of children about a century ago), cashiers and checkers, people doing minor maintenance on cars, insurance clerks, merchandise stockers, call-center workers, cabbies, truck drivers, and movie ushers. Far more people in the movie business are movie ushers, ticket takers, or sellers of snacks than are actors. Seemingly anyone can dispense popcorn and sodas... and not many people can meet the high standards of acting at a major movie studio. 

Remember: you must eat. You do not need to listen to the Chicago Symphony live. 

Much that we need done we want done cheaply, inexpensively, and predictably. That's how it is with an oil change. I could probably learn to do that in less than a week. Racing a car at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway? Absolutely not.

[Bob Butler 54]

Today's demonstration turned into a dud. It looks like the security outnumbered the protestors.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-18-2021, 08:22 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Not sure it is that abandoned.  When you look at environmentalism, infrastructure and Covid, they are still pushing in the don't solve the problem direction.  They may have changed their language, but they would still prefer not to pay the cost of taking action in such areas.

So, how do you solve the Covid problem without a cure? How do you solve the unvaccinated problem with thousands of unvaccinated entering the country illegally and being released by authorities to enter it every day? How do you solve the issue of poverty when the amount of poor people is increasing every day? Bob, you're not thinking very clearly and neither are the others these day. So, where do you want us to ship them to eventually? Do you have plenty of room in Cape Cod? How bout Manhattan or Napa or Martha's Vineyard or Washington DC? You must know that when the country turns to us, Acirema is going to be stuck with damn near all of them right?

[Classic-Xer]

(09-18-2021, 08:22 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Today's demonstration turned into a dud.  It looks like the security outnumbered the protestors.

Duh, there were only 700 protestors expected to show up.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-18-2021, 04:35 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-18-2021, 12:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-18-2021, 10:15 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Let's remember that the bungling of COVID-19 under Trump has already been as costly at least in lives as a war... and ventilator use isn't cheap.  Trump's followers are going to cost us a pretty penny for the Michigan plot and the Capitol Putsch.

Once again, where's the sign of rational thought? You seem to be grasping and flailing at the moment. What's up, are you feeling desperate or something?

More American deaths than any war in American history except for the American Civil War.

Do you know what the cost of a day's use of a ventilator is?

The Trump followers in the Michigan Plot and the January 6 Putsch are going to cost big money in prosecution, and if convicted, the cost of incarceration.

You know the thousands of people entering the country each day with only the clothes on their backs and the millions that we've been supporting ( yourself included) for years and the thousands of refuges who have been entering for many years are/will be costing us a lot more than those on ventilators and the cost of less than a thousand people being charged for the ruckus that occurred on Jan 6 and the plot to kidnap you're precious blue governor. Did you know the FBI was directly involved with the plot to kidnap your precious blue governor and the plot was actually an FBI sting? I thought that was pretty interesting myself.