Trump's people have founded their Party:

[pbrower2a]

Well, Trump's new Patriot Party has formed:





Needless to say, I do not endorse it.

[David Horn]

(06-12-2021, 02:04 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Well, Trump's new Patriot Party has formed:





Needless to say, I do not endorse it.

I do.  Divide and conquer requires the divide part first.

[Eric the Green]

(06-12-2021, 11:17 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-12-2021, 02:04 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Well, Trump's new Patriot Party has formed:





Needless to say, I do not endorse it.

I do.  Divide and conquer requires the divide part first.

That sounds like you agree with my suggestion that maybe it would be better for our side if Trump remains a thing. We'll see! I guess they are trying to replace the elephant with a lion. Of course, Trump has Mars in Leo rising in his chart.

[Bob Butler 54]

Interesting. We will have to see if both groups put up viable candidates. I too am of the divide and conquer mindset.

[pbrower2a]

A three-party system does not last long in a first-past-the-post system.

[Bob Butler 54]

I seems a little soon.  Trump is still dominant in the old GOP.  If he had a real desire to win, he would not be splitting the vote.

But I have a feeling it is about the money.  He wants to get his hands on the Trump donations, rather than letting the GOP have any of it.

Which is fine for me...

[Eric the Green]

I don't think we can conclude from one guy's video that a new party formed. He was just saying that the GOP is Trump's Party, and he's happy about that.

[David Horn]

(06-12-2021, 11:07 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't think we can conclude from one guy's video that a new party formed. He was just saying that the GOP is Trump's Party, and he's happy about that.

Chaos is OK too.  It looks like we'll get one or the other.

[pbrower2a]

At the county fair, their booth was opposite the Republican booth. The Republicans know who I am, and were polite enough. It was all about electing a slate of pols. The people were all adults. The "Patriot Party" had children at its booth, which is inappropriate. It was all about Donald Trump.

The Patriot Party was easy to bait. I went by with a pulled-pork sandwich and the supposed adult there got to hear my insult.

"Gee, it's really easy to eat pork after you think of Animal Farm... and this pork sandwich reminds me of the fascist pig (Orwell's Animal Farm is an allegory of the Soviet Union, but the Soviet Union had much in common with fascism, as is well known) we just had as President".

The supposed adult was steamed. How could anyone deny the reality behind the personality cult around the Great and Infallible One!

[sbarrera]

(09-07-2021, 02:37 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: At the county fair, their booth was opposite the Republican booth. The Republicans know who I am, and were polite enough. It was all about electing a slate of pols. The people were all adults. The "Patriot Party" had children at its booth, which is inappropriate. It was all about Donald Trump.

The Patriot Party was easy to bait. I went by with a pulled-pork sandwich and the supposed adult there got to hear my insult.

"Gee, it's really easy to eat pork after you think of Animal Farm... and this pork sandwich reminds me of the fascist pig (Orwell's Animal Farm is an allegory of the Soviet Union, but the Soviet Union had much in common with fascism, as is well known) we just had as President".

The supposed adult was steamed. How could anyone deny the reality behind the personality cult around the Great and Infallible One!

 great story!

What would you say are the chances of this new party making any headway in an election?

[pbrower2a]

(09-07-2021, 08:12 PM)sbarrera Wrote:

(09-07-2021, 02:37 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: At the county fair, their booth was opposite the Republican booth. The Republicans know who I am, and were polite enough. It was all about electing a slate of pols. The people were all adults. The "Patriot Party" had children at its booth, which is inappropriate. It was all about Donald Trump.

The Patriot Party was easy to bait. I went by with a pulled-pork sandwich and the supposed adult there got to hear my insult.

"Gee, it's really easy to eat pork after you think of Animal Farm... and this pork sandwich reminds me of the fascist pig (Orwell's Animal Farm is an allegory of the Soviet Union, but the Soviet Union had much in common with fascism, as is well known) we just had as President".

The supposed adult was steamed. How could anyone deny the reality behind the personality cult around the Great and Infallible One!

 great story!

What would you say are the chances of this new party making any headway in an election?

This may not be representative. I have seen only the local group, and it is heavily into an abortion ban and "gun rights".

Its heritage goes only so far back as Donald Trump. The Republican party still makes much of Lincoln. (Never mind that Franklin Roosevelt co-opted Lincoln at every possible turn as a model of wartime leadership and for a better world after the Great Struggle. But, yes, Lincoln was a Republican; Theodore Roosevelt was a Republican; Dwight Eisenhower was a Republican... and I see Trump's good predecessor Obama having much more in common with Lincoln, TR, and Ike than Trump does. 

I have no idea of what the objectives of the Patriot Party are. I see it at worst as a Mordred-like or Hagen-like splinter from the GOP that can ensure a defeat of the GOP by splitting the votes of the Right. After some crippling defeats the Republican Party will beg for a merger with the Patriot Party at the expense of any independence from it. It may want the focus on "cultural" issues such as "gun rights", abortion, homosexuality, creationism, anti-vaccination ideology, and school prayer instead of on "Profits First, Profits Only" neoliberalism.  This is an anti-intellectual cult. 

Maybe it believes that it can merge with the GOP and take it over only to make it stronger. It believes that it alone represents the "Real America". 

Well, what is the "Real America"? I see multiple, equally-valid traditions that may agree on pragmatic matters. "Little Italy" and "Chinatown" may have little in common except to say that Italian cuisine is really Chinese cuisine with dairy and much more meat... and that the people of both communities may be similar in social-economic status. (Marco Polo introduced spaghetti from China to Italy). If it is politics, then much of America believes in gender equity, environmental improvement, law and order, sobriety of bloodstream and conduct, religious toleration, and the value of formal education.   

Is the world of the yeshiva as valid as that of the barrio? Of course. 

.... The generational theory implies that the Crisis Eras are the end of many antiquated practices no longer tenable (let us say Jew-hating in Europe in the last Crisis, slavery in America in the one before that, and the concept of the Divine Right of Kings in the American and French revolutions). Much that dies off is not-so-new. Fascism, for all its pretensions to be the inevitable fate of Humanity, literally died as Italian partisans executed Mussolini and as Hitler and Goebbels offed themselves in a bunker. Japan would make a sudden and complete turn to liberal democracy. Oddly, much of what seems the old practice of colonialism weakened critically during the Second World War because colonies proved indefensible. The weakness of the American defensive hold of the Philippines ensured the demise of Dutch rule in Indonesia and the swift collapse of British colonial power in Malaya. British India was in a stronger position in which to demand independence after the war than before. Many of the decisions to establish colonial powers had been made in the late 19th century, which was not that far in the past in 1945.   

"Scientific" racism, a/k/a eugenics, could be faulted as contributing to Nazi war crimes. 

Much of what will die at the end of this Crisis Era will be novelties that faced the challenge of a Crisis and proved gross failure. The anti-vax stuff (and to call it $#!+ is to insult $#!+) has literally killed many of its believers who will be unable to pass down any tradition. Will their loved ones turn away from that? It will be difficult, but necessary.  Neoliberalism seems to have been good at keeping price levels stable, which is easy to do if one isn't really paying the bulk of people necessary to do the work. Working people will want some dignity on the job. Much of contemporary mass culture will lose its appeal.

[sbarrera]

(09-08-2021, 04:10 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: This may not be representative. I have seen only the local group, and it is heavily into an abortion ban and "gun rights".

Its heritage goes only so far back as Donald Trump. The Republican party still makes much of Lincoln. (Never mind that Franklin Roosevelt co-opted Lincoln at every possible turn as a model of wartime leadership and for a better world after the Great Struggle. But, yes, Lincoln was a Republican; Theodore Roosevelt was a Republican; Dwight Eisenhower was a Republican... and I see Trump's good predecessor Obama having much more in common with Lincoln, TR, and Ike than Trump does. 

I have no idea of what the objectives of the Patriot Party are. I see it at worst as a Mordred-like or Hagen-like splinter from the GOP that can ensure a defeat of the GOP by splitting the votes of the Right. After some crippling defeats the Republican Party will beg for a merger with the Patriot Party at the expense of any independence from it. It may want the focus on "cultural" issues such as "gun rights", abortion, homosexuality, creationism, anti-vaccination ideology, and school prayer instead of on "Profits First, Profits Only" neoliberalism.  This is an anti-intellectual cult. 

Maybe it believes that it can merge with the GOP and take it over only to make it stronger. It believes that it alone represents the "Real America". 

Well, what is the "Real America"? I see multiple, equally-valid traditions that may agree on pragmatic matters. "Little Italy" and "Chinatown" may have little in common except to say that Italian cuisine is really Chinese cuisine with dairy and much more meat... and that the people of both communities may be similar in social-economic status. (Marco Polo introduced spaghetti from China to Italy). If it is politics, then much of America believes in gender equity, environmental improvement, law and order, sobriety of bloodstream and conduct, religious toleration, and the value of formal education.   

Is the world of the yeshiva as valid as that of the barrio? Of course. 

.... The generational theory implies that the Crisis Eras are the end of many antiquated practices no longer tenable (let us say Jew-hating in Europe in the last Crisis, slavery in America in the one before that, and the concept of the Divine Right of Kings in the American and French revolutions). Much that dies off is not-so-new. Fascism, for all its pretensions to be the inevitable fate of Humanity, literally died as Italian partisans executed Mussolini and as Hitler and Goebbels offed themselves in a bunker. Japan would make a sudden and complete turn to liberal democracy. Oddly, much of what seems the old practice of colonialism weakened critically during the Second World War because colonies proved indefensible. The weakness of the American defensive hold of the Philippines ensured the demise of Dutch rule in Indonesia and the swift collapse of British colonial power in Malaya. British India was in a stronger position in which to demand independence after the war than before. Many of the decisions to establish colonial powers had been made in the late 19th century, which was not that far in the past in 1945.   

"Scientific" racism, a/k/a eugenics, could be faulted as contributing to Nazi war crimes. 

Much of what will die at the end of this Crisis Era will be novelties that faced the challenge of a Crisis and proved gross failure. The anti-vax stuff (and to call it $#!+ is to insult $#!+) has literally killed many of its believers who will be unable to pass down any tradition. Will their loved ones turn away from that? It will be difficult, but necessary.  Neoliberalism seems to have been good at keeping price levels stable, which is easy to do if one isn't really paying the bulk of people necessary to do the work. Working people will want some dignity on the job. Much of contemporary mass culture will lose its appeal.

This is a great analysis. Personally, I hope most of what you describe as the cultural issues of the Patriot party get ditched ulitmately, but it remains to be seen. I also can't help but compare the Patriot Party Trump loyalists to the Jacobites of an earlier age. Just as a Stuart King was in the thrall of France, their leader is enthralled to a foreign adversary (meaning Putin, of course), and just as remnants would remain loyal to the Stuart dynasty after the Hanoverian succession, decades after James II was booted out of England, there may be some remnant of Trumpism for generations to come.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-08-2021, 04:10 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Oddly, much of what seems the old practice of colonialism weakened critically during the Second World War because colonies proved indefensible.

Nitpick.  While colonies did prove indefensible when the mother country was pressed, colonialism died in great part when the US 'forgave' lend lease loans if the mother country would open the ports.  This let the US take full advantage of their intact manufacturing, made the source of raw materials and guaranteed market of the colonies go away.  Without them, why keep a colony?

But overall, agreed on the Patriot Party.

[David Horn]

Let's assume that the Trumpster is actually behind the Patriot Party and not just a willing participant in someone else's fantasy. If so, then having this in his back pocket makes the GOP regulars less likely to buck him out right. It appears, to them, that he has less to lose than they do, when the opposite is closer to the mark. Without the GOP, Trump is just another blowhard without an audience.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-08-2021, 01:28 PM)David Horn Wrote: Let's assume that the Trumpster is actually behind the Patriot Party and not just a willing participant in someone else's fantasy.  If so, then having this in his back pocket makes the GOP regulars less likely to buck him out right.  It appears, to them, that he has less to lose than they do, when the opposite is closer to the mark.  Without the GOP, Trump is just another blowhard without an audience.

What's the GOP without the 70 some million Trump supporters? I disagree, the GOP ain't shit without Trumps base.

[pbrower2a]

(09-08-2021, 09:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-08-2021, 01:28 PM)David Horn Wrote: Let's assume that the Trumpster is actually behind the Patriot Party and not just a willing participant in someone else's fantasy.  If so, then having this in his back pocket makes the GOP regulars less likely to buck him out right.  It appears, to them, that he has less to lose than they do, when the opposite is closer to the mark.  Without the GOP, Trump is just another blowhard without an audience.

What's the GOP without the 70 some million Trump supporters? I disagree, the GOP ain't shit without Trumps base.

Trump had no political base until he decided to run for President, largely due to spite against President Obama. (If you can think of a worse reason to seek the Presidency than to settle old scores or to get fantastically rich through corruption, then tell me). 

The GOP used to be known as the Party of Lincoln; oh, how it has fallen!

It is safe to assume that about 70 million of Trump's voters would have voted for practically any Republican nominee. In view of his old age and suspect health at the least, Republicans are going to need someone else as their exponent rather soon. 

Demographics do not favor the Trump base. It is already old, and for that reason it is shrinking every year. It has practically no youth appeal, and practically no appeal to young adults. Millennials and Boomers can get along so long as the Boomers don't exhibit extreme narcissism as does Trump. Millennial adults loathe his anti-labor, anti-environmentalist, and anti-education stances. 

Boomers deserve some credit for shaping Millennial attitudes, and Trump does not fail the values that Millennials sought to impart upon Millennial children. Trump is a man of cruelty, greed, and bigotry. he is the most despotic person that we have ever had as President. 

In my most cynical moment I expect the GOP and the Patriot Party to merge, if on the terms of the Patriot Party. I expect a disaster.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-07-2021, 02:37 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: At the county fair, their booth was opposite the Republican booth. The Republicans know who I am, and were polite enough. It was all about electing a slate of pols. The people were all adults. The "Patriot Party" had children at its booth, which is inappropriate. It was all about Donald Trump.

The Patriot Party was easy to bait. I went by with a pulled-pork sandwich and the supposed adult there got to hear my insult.

"Gee, it's really easy to eat pork after you think of Animal Farm... and this pork sandwich reminds me of the fascist pig (Orwell's Animal Farm is an allegory of the Soviet Union, but the Soviet Union had much in common with fascism, as is well known) we just had as President".

The supposed adult was steamed. How could anyone deny the reality behind the personality cult around the Great and Infallible One!

I would be steamed about you insulting me or insulting some kid too. PB, there are adults who have to take shit from people like you and there are adults don't have to take shit from someone like you and there are adults who won't take shit from people like you? Guess which group or groups that someone like me is or could be in these days?

[Classic-Xer]

(09-08-2021, 11:15 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-08-2021, 09:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-08-2021, 01:28 PM)David Horn Wrote: Let's assume that the Trumpster is actually behind the Patriot Party and not just a willing participant in someone else's fantasy.  If so, then having this in his back pocket makes the GOP regulars less likely to buck him out right.  It appears, to them, that he has less to lose than they do, when the opposite is closer to the mark.  Without the GOP, Trump is just another blowhard without an audience.

What's the GOP without the 70 some million Trump supporters? I disagree, the GOP ain't shit without Trumps base.

Trump had no political base until he decided to run for President, largely due to spite against President Obama. (If you can think of a worse reason to seek the Presidency than to settle old scores or to get fantastically rich through corruption, then tell me). 

The GOP used to be known as the Party of Lincoln; oh, how it has fallen!

It is safe to assume that about 70 million of Trump's voters would have voted for practically any Republican nominee. In view of his old age and suspect health at the least, Republicans are going to need someone else as their exponent rather soon. 

Demographics do not favor the Trump base. It is already old, and for that reason it is shrinking every year. It has practically no youth appeal, and practically no appeal to young adults. Millennials and Boomers can get along so long as the Boomers don't exhibit extreme narcissism as does Trump. Millennial adults loathe his anti-labor, anti-environmentalist, and anti-education stances. 

Boomers deserve some credit for shaping Millennial attitudes, and Trump does not fail the values that Millennials sought to impart upon Millennial children. Trump is a man of cruelty, greed, and bigotry. he is the most despotic person that we have ever had as President. 

In my most cynical moment I expect the GOP and the Patriot Party to merge, if on the terms of the Patriot Party. I expect a disaster.

Yep, the GOP has been falling along with the Democratic party for a while now. It's just a matter of time before the American people begin to let go of them altogether. In case you're not up on current events, Trump didn't leave a bunch of Americans behind in Afghanistan. BTW, that's the primary difference between Democrats and Americans these days. You deserve what's coming dude. Biden did what an American would never do or accept as an outcome these days.

[Eric the Green]

(09-09-2021, 12:12 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-08-2021, 11:15 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-08-2021, 09:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-08-2021, 01:28 PM)David Horn Wrote: Let's assume that the Trumpster is actually behind the Patriot Party and not just a willing participant in someone else's fantasy.  If so, then having this in his back pocket makes the GOP regulars less likely to buck him out right.  It appears, to them, that he has less to lose than they do, when the opposite is closer to the mark.  Without the GOP, Trump is just another blowhard without an audience.

What's the GOP without the 70 some million Trump supporters? I disagree, the GOP ain't shit without Trumps base.

Trump had no political base until he decided to run for President, largely due to spite against President Obama. (If you can think of a worse reason to seek the Presidency than to settle old scores or to get fantastically rich through corruption, then tell me). 

The GOP used to be known as the Party of Lincoln; oh, how it has fallen!

It is safe to assume that about 70 million of Trump's voters would have voted for practically any Republican nominee. In view of his old age and suspect health at the least, Republicans are going to need someone else as their exponent rather soon. 

Demographics do not favor the Trump base. It is already old, and for that reason it is shrinking every year. It has practically no youth appeal, and practically no appeal to young adults. Millennials and Boomers can get along so long as the Boomers don't exhibit extreme narcissism as does Trump. Millennial adults loathe his anti-labor, anti-environmentalist, and anti-education stances. 

Boomers deserve some credit for shaping Millennial attitudes, and Trump does not fail the values that Millennials sought to impart upon Millennial children. Trump is a man of cruelty, greed, and bigotry. he is the most despotic person that we have ever had as President. 

In my most cynical moment I expect the GOP and the Patriot Party to merge, if on the terms of the Patriot Party. I expect a disaster.

Yep, the GOP has been falling along with the Democratic party for a while now. It's just a matter of time before the American people begin to let go of them altogether. In case you're not up on current events, Trump didn't leave a bunch of Americans behind in Afghanistan. BTW, that's the primary difference between Democrats and Americans these days. You deserve what's coming dude. Biden did what an American would never do or accept as an outcome these days.

Most Americans are out. Those 100 or so left behind left their decision until it was too late. Those left behind were mostly Afghans with green cards who had helped the American occupation and mission. Many of those were brought out. Now your side does not want them in the USA, which has a duty to them. Biden would have done better to bring all these folks out before bringing the US soldiers out. For some reason 2500 American soldiers made it possible for 300,000 Afghan troops to do their duty, but when the US soldiers left, the Afghan troops left the field. Biden and many others (including me) thought the Afghan troops would keep fighting and keep the Taliban at bay. There was a lack of intelligence there. Much of the USA's investment had been taken by Afghan leaders and corrupt officials, and the troops did not have enough equipment or morale.

Of course right-winger Trump nuts like yourself say Biden didn't just make a mistake; for you he's not an American. But your version of "America" is bullshit.

[pbrower2a]

(09-08-2021, 11:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-07-2021, 02:37 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: At the county fair, their booth was opposite the Republican booth. The Republicans know who I am, and were polite enough. It was all about electing a slate of pols. The people were all adults. The "Patriot Party" had children at its booth, which is inappropriate. It was all about Donald Trump.

The Patriot Party was easy to bait. I went by with a pulled-pork sandwich and the supposed adult there got to hear my insult.

"Gee, it's really easy to eat pork after you think of Animal Farm... and this pork sandwich reminds me of the fascist pig (Orwell's Animal Farm is an allegory of the Soviet Union, but the Soviet Union had much in common with fascism, as is well known) we just had as President".

The supposed adult was steamed. How could anyone deny the reality behind the personality cult around the Great and Infallible One!

I would be steamed about you insulting me or insulting some kid too. PB, there are adults who have to take shit from people like you and there are adults don't have to take shit from someone like you and there are adults who won't take shit from people like you? Guess which group or groups that someone like me is or could be in these days?

I made sure to make the insult about Donald Trump so that the cultists' children didn't see it. The insult was about Donald Trump and not at the person. It is about nobody else... and not the cultist, who could be a perfectly good person about things other than Trump. 

Donald Trump was the one talking trash by insulting the handicapped, women, and non-Christians. He is the one who cannot accept that women can be chilly rationalists. Maybe you think of women who aren't meek and servile as "dragon ladies"... well, women are the majority, and the vast majority of the smart ones are feminists and not "dragon ladies"). Maybe you are scared to call the modern woman who does not take Trump-like humiliation and abuse meekly "bitches"... but just remember that literal bitches, female dogs, are wonderful mothers who will do anything to protect their puppies. Do something incredibly stupid, and a female dog becomes a tigress.

What I saw as a response from him showed something quite uncharacteristic of all the competent adults that I know: a lack of impulse control. Stupidity? Well, Trump lost the college graduates of America; it is safe to say that people with college degrees are smarter on the whole than people without them. Trump did well among white males, but he couldn't even win white males who had college degrees in 2020.

I see myself more likely to turn someone who tries to convert me into a Trump supporter than to be turned. I know Trump's type all too well: a liar with delusions of grandeur, an insatiable lust for flattery and indulgence, and no empathy. If truth should get in the way, then he casts truth aside.

We are all free to have big dreams, but most of us know that if we are to ever achieve those dreams we need others working competently for us. No cardinal ever built a cathedral on his own. No lord ever built a castle or palace on his own. No plutocrat ever built a skyscraper or mansion on his own.