"Anti-Nationalist Civics"....What?

[JasonBlack]

Quote:I am satisfied that it will be one or the other, with anyone still connected to the 'wrong' model being damned to poverty, harassment, shame, and even imprisonment. You all know where I stand on that one, with Obama-like behavior solving more problems than it creates and Trumpism as a means to ruin of America in multiple ways.

In a nutshell, this is why I hate millennials more than boomers. The aggressive censorship we're seeing is hardly a first for a generation heavy on peer pressure, ruthless ostracism and enforcing conformity. Boomers probably haven't noticed this until recently, because, during the 80s, 90s and early 2000s we were just kiddos, and this behavior went overlooked because it had little real impact on the adult world of economics and politics. Keep in mind millennials are nowhere close to the height of their power, and the last hero generation is what brought us McCarthyism, and that paranoid, anti-individualistic culture that led to the Boom Awakening.

Put simply...millennials don't like freedom. They are attracted to concepts like LGBT culture because they value acceptance and chafe at the prospect of being judged by their peers, when in practice, they're more prudish and never really cared all that much about the individualism, self-expression or genuine sexuality that the sexual revolution was supposed to represent (you can tell it by the way they dress. It's basically been en vogue to dress deliberately ugly for about 10 years now).

[Eric the Green]

(07-14-2022, 09:24 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

Quote:I am satisfied that it will be one or the other, with anyone still connected to the 'wrong' model being damned to poverty, harassment, shame, and even imprisonment. You all know where I stand on that one, with Obama-like behavior solving more problems than it creates and Trumpism as a means to ruin of America in multiple ways.

In a nutshell, this is why I hate millennials more than boomers. The aggressive censorship we're seeing is hardly a first for a generation heavy on peer pressure, ruthless ostracism and enforcing conformity. Boomers probably haven't noticed this until recently, because, during the 80s, 90s and early 2000s we were just kiddos, and this behavior went overlooked because it had little real impact on the adult world of economics and politics. Keep in mind millennials are nowhere close to the height of their power, and the last hero generation is what brought us McCarthyism, and that paranoid, anti-individualistic culture that led to the Boom Awakening.

Put simply...millennials don't like freedom. They are attracted to concepts like LGBT culture because they value acceptance and chafe at the prospect of being judged by their peers, when in practice, they're more prudish and never really cared all that much about the individualism, self-expression or genuine sexuality that the sexual revolution was supposed to represent (you can tell it by the way they dress. It's basically been en vogue to dress deliberately ugly for about 10 years now).

I don't know what "censorship" you refer to. I of course endorse p.brower's statement. I can't form an opinion on how millennials dress. I don't see much originality there; they have simply adopted an amalgam of previous styles. Same in music; previous pop styles continue, but essentially and generally have become more superficial and commercial. I am unaware of most current and recent movies and TV shows.

That nation crumbles which does not progress. What is progress? We have made much in our history. Our Supreme Court currently wants to return us to 1789, before any progress occurred beyond our initial foundations. Back then, only white male land-owners were full citizens. Women could not even own property. Not only were black people often enslaved, but many white people had slaves. This was an abomination, and because the perennially-backward portion of our nation wanted to protect their investment in slavery, a civil war was fought. Since then over time more and more of us became full citizens. The working class gained rights too, as industry expanded. We gained factory regulations, anti-trust laws, social security and labor rights, medicare and obamacare. Our society is not the agrarian aristocracy of 1789. Enumerated rights in the Constitution are not adequate today. Libertarians are spreading delusion. Neoliberalism is false ideology.

We have been regressing for so long, for 41 years now, that we are in danger of not being able to make progress anymore. If this happens, our nation will crumble. Is that what you want?

[JasonBlack]

(07-14-2022, 11:06 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't know what "censorship" you refer to. I of course endorse p.brower's statement. I can't form an opinion on how millennials dress. I don't see much originality there; they have simply adopted an amalgam of previous styles. Same in music; previous pop styles continue, but essentially and generally have become more superficial and commercial. I am unaware of most current and recent movies and TV shows.

That nation crumbles which does not progress. What is progress? We have made much in our history. Our Supreme Court currently wants to return us to 1789, before any progress occurred beyond our initial foundations. Back then, only white male land-owners were full citizens. Women could not even own property. Not only were black people often enslaved, but many white people had slaves. This was an abomination, and because the perennially-backward portion of our nation wanted to protect their investment in slavery, a civil war was fought. Since then over time more and more of us became full citizens. The working class gained rights too, as industry expanded. We gained factory regulations, anti-trust laws, social security and labor rights, medicare and obamacare. Our society is not the agragrian aristocracy of 1789. Enumerated rights in the Constitution are not adequate today. Libertarians are spreading delusion. Neoliberalism is false ideology.

We have been regressing for so long, for 41 years now, that we are in danger of not being able to make progress anymore. If this happens, our nation will crumble. Is that what you want?

Generally, it takes the form of doxxing. If you're unfamiliar with the concept, this video gives the jist of it. 







This link details some research on the nature of doxxing and the number of people affected. The biggest takeaway is that about 21% of Americans have been doxxed in their lifetime, and among millennials (who use the internet more than older generations), that number is probably higher. 

https://www.safehome.org/family-safety/d...20personal.

[Eric the Green]

(07-14-2022, 11:30 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(07-14-2022, 11:06 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't know what "censorship" you refer to. I of course endorse p.brower's statement. I can't form an opinion on how millennials dress. I don't see much originality there; they have simply adopted an amalgam of previous styles. Same in music; previous pop styles continue, but essentially and generally have become more superficial and commercial. I am unaware of most current and recent movies and TV shows.

That nation crumbles which does not progress. What is progress? We have made much in our history. Our Supreme Court currently wants to return us to 1789, before any progress occurred beyond our initial foundations. Back then, only white male land-owners were full citizens. Women could not even own property. Not only were black people often enslaved, but many white people had slaves. This was an abomination, and because the perennially-backward portion of our nation wanted to protect their investment in slavery, a civil war was fought. Since then over time more and more of us became full citizens. The working class gained rights too, as industry expanded. We gained factory regulations, anti-trust laws, social security and labor rights, medicare and obamacare. Our society is not the agrarian aristocracy of 1789. Enumerated rights in the Constitution are not adequate today. Libertarians are spreading delusion. Neoliberalism is false ideology.

We have been regressing for so long, for 41 years now, that we are in danger of not being able to make progress anymore. If this happens, our nation will crumble. Is that what you want?

Generally, it takes the form of doxxing. If you're unfamiliar with the concept, this video gives the jist of it. 







This link details some research on the nature of doxxing and the number of people affected. The biggest takeaway is that about 21% of Americans have been doxxed in their lifetime, and among millennials (who use the internet more than older generations), that number is probably higher. 

https://www.safehome.org/family-safety/d...20personal.

This sounds like the opposite of censorship. Millennials are more likely to dox because they are tech savvy. But this also makes them more collegeal, because of their networking skill. They choose Obama over Trump because they prefer Obama's policies and because he's charismatic. Youth generally favor progress historically, except for Jones Boomers and early-mid Xers.

[JasonBlack]

(07-14-2022, 11:52 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Sounds like kinda the opposite of censorship; revealing personal information. More like a revenge or intimidation tactic. Millennials are more likely to use this because they are more tech savvy. But that's also part of their version of collegeality and ability to organize, often called networking-- typical of civics.

If the purpose of doxxing is to threaten people who post unpopular opinions, then that is indeed a form of censorship, albeit censorship via mob, rather than censorship via institution.

[pbrower2a]

(07-14-2022, 09:24 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

Quote:I am satisfied that it will be one or the other, with anyone still connected to the 'wrong' model being damned to poverty, harassment, shame, and even imprisonment. You all know where I stand on that one, with Obama-like behavior solving more problems than it creates and Trumpism as a means to ruin of America in multiple ways.

In a nutshell, this is why I hate millennials more than boomers. The aggressive censorship we're seeing is hardly a first for a generation heavy on peer pressure, ruthless ostracism and enforcing conformity. Boomers probably haven't noticed this until recently, because, during the 80s, 90s and early 2000s we were just kiddos, and this behavior went overlooked because it had little real impact on the adult world of economics and politics. Keep in mind millennials are nowhere close to the height of their power, and the last hero generation is what brought us McCarthyism, and that paranoid, anti-individualistic culture that led to the Boom Awakening.

America is extremely polarized in culture and politics. One side will use force to establish its ways upon others who will be obliged to suffer for people who believe pre-modern ideas.  You'd be surprised what ideas one can enforce if one has the tools of torture and murder or the economic power to make one hungry or homeless. The side that has those pre-modern ideas will see the world and its opportunities take off without them. One side seems willing to use brutality to impose its vision. The other will let reality not of their making set the rulse. One adapts to reality if one has the choice, or one has a miserable life.   

Your real beef may be with the leaders. I concede as a Boomer that our economic and religious leaders have often been horrible. The economic leaders have been more practitioners of vulture capitalism or the administrative style of the old Soviet nomenklatura  (a bureaucratic elite that imposes a command-and-control system over workers and customers with little meaningful choice) while the most prominent divines have either pushed the heretical Gospel of Wealth or even been involved in clerical diddling with children. Is this to say that most Boomers are like this? Of course not! Most never got the chance to do this sort of thing, and most never wanted it. I would rather revert to the GI pattern for executives in which the typical executive has been with his company since young-adulthood starting with work in the mailroom and one successful advance at a time until one is in his fifties. This fellow knows how things really work, knows something about how to deal with customers or how the product or service is made best. By the time that this person is an executive his mortgage is mostly paid off, he has a wife of similar age, and he is too old to know what to do with a sports car. Institutional and personal loyalty are big things to him, so he is not on his third wife because he has tired of her after she no longer looks as if she could be Playmate of the Month. 

That was a different, and in many respects (aside from denial of opportunities for women and persons of color) more civilized and humane. The executives were paid something more like ten times what the person on the assembly line makes instead of a thousand. 

Economic inequality within America is becoming typical of a military dictatorship or of a fascist or feudal society, and that is unhealthy for us all.   

Quote:Put simply...millennials don't like freedom. They are attracted to concepts like LGBT culture because they value acceptance and chafe at the prospect of being judged by their peers, when in practice, they're more prudish and never really cared all that much about the individualism, self-expression or genuine sexuality that the sexual revolution was supposed to represent (you can tell it by the way they dress. It's basically been en vogue to dress deliberately ugly for about 10 years now).

As with the Gilded in middle age (when they assumed the Civic/Hero role) and GI's. Millennial adults are comparatively prudish. Such is Civic expression. Flamboyant expression of sexuality (as with Liberace) is at best a joke, and few people do that. Of course I am a Boomer, so I can't say what the Millennial attitude is toward LGBT... but having been harassed for homosexuality I have decided to support LGBT rights militantly because whatever makes life safer for LGBT people makes life safer for me. I would guess that Millennial adults can abhor both homophobia and child sexual abuse  without contradiction. One need not attach to LGBT culture (most LGBT people act normally in public and don't call attention to homosexuality unless in a clearly LGBT setting. 

If you want to know what kills individualism -- it is an economic order that demands deference to existing elites in the economic order. Figure that most college grads end up as glorified clerks and find setting up a mom-and-pop business out of the question. They have brutal student loans to pay off, which is very different from the norm  up to about 1980. I remember when the cost of a college education was roughly that of a time-consuming hobby like tooling around with modified cars. That is over. The Religious Right is about as conformist a grouping as you can imagine. People live in fear of their employer because they have gigantic rent (perhaps 70% of their income) to pay. 

For America to become a truly livable place, the inequality and the ideological craziness must go. I see no positive contribution to American politics from the MAGA crowd.

[David Horn]

(07-15-2022, 12:01 AM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(07-14-2022, 11:52 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Sounds like kinda the opposite of censorship; revealing personal information. More like a revenge or intimidation tactic. Millennials are more likely to use this because they are more tech savvy. But that's also part of their version of collegeality and ability to organize, often called networking-- typical of civics.

If the purpose of doxxing is to threaten people who post unpopular opinions, then that is indeed a form of censorship, albeit censorship via mob, rather than censorship via institution.

Doxxing isn't censorsip, though the purpose is to silence the one being doxxed.  Look at the poor OB/GYN from Indiana who was totally outraged by the need to perfom an abortion on a 10 year old rape victim from Ohio, because Ohio had made the procedure illegal even in a case so obviously jusified.  First, she was called a liar and a fabulist by the conservative media -- virtually of them, including the Wall Street Journal.  When the rapist was apprehended and confessed, that didn't stop.  Instead, she was 'charged' with being a self-promoting jerk -- never mind that the story was important and true.  Next, the Attorney General of Indiana decided that she need to be investigated, on what basis is a total mystery.  She's hired an attorney; she may be forced to move.

This isn't just about Millennials.  Every scumbag is doing it if he (mostly ''he') tinks it gets him something.  It's slander just this side of illegal.  The dividing line needs to be moved to make it legally what is in fact: slander, pure and simple.  BTW, don't hold your breath.

[pbrower2a]

(07-16-2022, 08:04 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-15-2022, 12:01 AM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(07-14-2022, 11:52 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Sounds like kinda the opposite of censorship; revealing personal information. More like a revenge or intimidation tactic. Millennials are more likely to use this because they are more tech savvy. But that's also part of their version of collegeality and ability to organize, often called networking-- typical of civics.

If the purpose of doxxing is to threaten people who post unpopular opinions, then that is indeed a form of censorship, albeit censorship via mob, rather than censorship via institution.

Doxxing isn't censorsip, though the purpose is to silence the one being doxxed.  Look at the poor OB/GYN from Indiana who was totally outraged by the need to perfom an abortion on a 10 year old rape victim from Ohio, because Ohio had made the procedure illegal even in a case so obviously jusified.  First, she was called a liar and a fabulist by the conservative media -- virtually of them, including the Wall Street Journal.  When the rapist was apprehended and confessed, that didn't stop.  Instead, she was 'charged' with being a self-promoting jerk -- never mind that the story was important and true.  Next, the Attorney General of Indiana decided that she need to be investigated, on what basis is a total mystery.  She's hired an attorney; she may be forced to move.

This isn't just about Millennials.  Every scumbag is doing it if he (mostly ''he') tinks it gets him something.  It's slander just this side of illegal.  The dividing line needs to be moved to make it legally what is in fact: slander, pure and simple.  BTW, don't hold your breath.

Doxxing is scummy and immoral (a veritable rape of privacy). If I know details about someone that could hurt an innocent person if exposed, I at least have the decency to keep quiet about it. People are violating personal privacy at times with such tricks as putting a hidden camera in a toilet stall. I can't understand why anyone would be interested, but some people have their fetishes. Even if it is legal or indetectable it is horribly wrong and hurtful.  

As for abortion -- it is time for the adults to take charge, meaning the people who contemplate the issue before making moral pronouncements as blanket statements. Sure, I am pro-choice, but I could imagine trying to talk someone out of having an abortion (you can put the baby up for adoption!) if such is a valid option. On the other hand if a woman was raped or tricked into a pregnancy by some scummy sociopath I might not be so certain. Inviability, threat to the life or health (including reproductive health!) of the woman or girl? Don't get me into that argument against abortion.

[Eric the Green]

(07-15-2022, 12:01 AM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(07-14-2022, 11:52 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Sounds like kinda the opposite of censorship; revealing personal information. More like a revenge or intimidation tactic. Millennials are more likely to use this because they are more tech savvy. But that's also part of their version of collegeality and ability to organize, often called networking-- typical of civics.

If the purpose of doxxing is to threaten people who post unpopular opinions, then that is indeed a form of censorship, albeit censorship via mob, rather than censorship via institution.

Censorship via intimidation online. I agree, but I am not so sure Millennials are to be singled out. As I said, they may use it more than other generations because they are more tech-savvy in all different ways than others.