The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Classic-Xer]

(06-15-2020, 12:01 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-14-2020, 05:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-14-2020, 03:02 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-14-2020, 02:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Me, I'd prefer to keep Trump despite his personal shortcomings personality wise. The dude is an asshole but at least he's not going to screw the entire country.

Hasn't he already screwed the country?  He is refusing to save lives against the virus?  He is refusing to listen to the people about ending racist policing?

I guess you haven't figured out that stopping a virus with no cure in its tracks without destroying the entire US economy and completely stopping American life is impossible...

Ah, no -- not really.  The obvious examples are Australia, with a very conservative government, and New Zealand, run by Socialists.  Both brought the virus to near zero and are keeping it there.  Both countries are more-or-less open, in the US meaning of the term.  So again here, the fault lies with the dickhead in the White House ... full stop.

I guess you may have to pack up and move there until COVID19 is no longer a major issue here. It could save your life. So, what did you think of all your massive amounts of protestors who ignored the Covid19 warnings and the social distancing rules and so forth? I mean, you seemed pretty pissed about a few hundred ours ignoring them. You have to be way more pissed about them because there was way more of them. Hell, according to the coroners report, George Floyd was even infected with COVID19 which also contributed to the cause of his death.

[Classic-Xer]

(06-15-2020, 04:25 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Polls right now are showing the public is on the side of justice rather than law and order now. They support black lives matter. Support for the president is falling because he represses peaceful protests with the military. The riots mostly ceased some days ago while peaceful protests continued and swayed the country to their side. If more riots happen because of more cop murders, it will reflect badly on Trump because he is the incumbent, much as it did on Johnson and Humphrey in 1968 because THEY were the incumbent. According to Lichtman, if riots continue it will not cause people to support Trump because he's for law and order, it will cause people to support Biden because the country is falling apart under Trump.

Yep. The opportunity to act is right now. You better ram through a bunch of liberal legislation that favors criminals, thugs, looters and privileged punks who like destroying property really quick. I mean, you don't want people to have time think about what the Left wants and how it will impact them and their families or what the repercussions will be for them down the road. As far as the 57 cops who resigned in Buffalo, that's 57 less cops for a dumb liberal like you to call on during a time of need. Like I said, I'm not going feel bad for a bunch of clueless blues in need who basically helped/let the Left get rid of the bulk their cops. As far a I know, Trump wasn't the person who had his knee on the back of George Floyd's neck or the person who killed the aggressive black guy running away with their taser. If the taser was a real gun, the cop would have been wounded or dead. I don't expect a dumb liberal or a clueless liberal or an emotional liberal to think about that but then again Cops Lives Don't Matter to the Left or Black Lives Matter. You just keep fucking up and keep showing us more and keep weakening law enforcement because we are waiting for you to give us the opportunity to clean house so to speak. I don't know if you'll be alive (I hope so) or if you'll be unfortunate to be reborn but either way it's not going to be nice. Personally, I prefer to see the ENTIRE tape and be presented all that facts before I way in on the situation with George Floyd.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-15-2020, 03:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I prefer to see the ENTIRE tape and be presented all that facts before I way in on the situation with George Floyd.

Gee. I thought you were fact free. You just did your worldview scattered with violent daydreams, not deal in facts. But that tape has been on record and widely interpreted for several weeks now. Judging from the response, the people are not waiting for you to interpret the facts and form your opinion. That is no way to get anywhere.

[Classic-Xer]

(06-15-2020, 03:35 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 03:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I prefer to see the ENTIRE tape and be presented all that facts before I way in on the situation with George Floyd.

Gee.  I thought you were fact free.  You just did your worldview scattered with violent daydreams, not deal in facts.  But that tape has been on record and widely interpreted for several weeks now.  Judging from the response, the people are not waiting for you to interpret the facts and form your opinion.  That is no way to get anywhere.

Do you have a problem with me believing in Due Process? Aren't you supposed to be an American like you say and often tell me and try to convince others. You may have been one at one time but your nothing more than a liberal or fascist or a communist or a remnant from the dark ages or the wild west to me today. You can bow down, submit and handover everything to a bunch of thugs and crooks like the Jews

[Classic-Xer]

(06-15-2020, 03:35 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 03:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I prefer to see the ENTIRE tape and be presented all that facts before I way in on the situation with George Floyd.

Gee.  I thought you were fact free.  You just did your worldview scattered with violent daydreams, not deal in facts.  But that tape has been on record and widely interpreted for several weeks now.  Judging from the response, the people are not waiting for you to interpret the facts and form your opinion.  That is no way to get anywhere.

I dunno, the stuff that I watched your folks do in Minneapolis and St Paul and other blue cities looked pretty violent. I think we may have to pass a bunch of laws that makes it legal to shoot your folks on sight and agree to pay more taxes to beef up our police forces. I mean, if we can't rely on liberals or Democrats to control their on shit then we are going have to adjust by doing the opposite. We may even have to establish borders and form mew states.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-15-2020, 04:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 03:35 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 03:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I prefer to see the ENTIRE tape and be presented all that facts before I way in on the situation with George Floyd.

Gee.  I thought you were fact free.  You just did your worldview scattered with violent daydreams, not deal in facts.  But that tape has been on record and widely interpreted for several weeks now.  Judging from the response, the people are not waiting for you to interpret the facts and form your opinion.  That is no way to get anywhere.

I dunno, the stuff that I watched your folks do in Minneapolis and St Paul and other blue cities looked pretty violent. I think we may have to pass a bunch of laws that makes it legal to shoot your folks on sight and agree to pay more taxes to beef up our police forces. I mean, if we can't rely on liberals or Democrats to control their on shit then we are going have to adjust by doing the opposite. We may even have to establish borders and form mew states.

Sure. Exaggerating violence is much better than justice or equality.

[David Horn]

(06-15-2020, 04:21 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 12:01 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-14-2020, 05:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-14-2020, 03:02 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-14-2020, 02:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Me, I'd prefer to keep Trump despite his personal shortcomings personality wise. The dude is an asshole but at least he's not going to screw the entire country.

Hasn't he already screwed the country?  He is refusing to save lives against the virus?  He is refusing to listen to the people about ending racist policing?

I guess you haven't figured out that stopping a virus with no cure in its tracks without destroying the entire US economy and completely stopping American life is impossible...

Ah, no -- not really.  The obvious examples are Australia, with a very conservative government, and New Zealand, run by Socialists.  Both brought the virus to near zero and are keeping it there.  Both countries are more-or-less open, in the US meaning of the term.  So again here, the fault lies with the dickhead in the White House ... full stop.

Run by social democratics and are centre left to be exact. (New Zealand)

Here in the USA, anything left of center is considered socialist, at least by the Trumpist crowd.  Actually, by some mainstream conservatives too.

[Classic-Xer]

(06-15-2020, 05:03 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 04:44 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 04:21 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 12:01 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-14-2020, 05:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I guess you haven't figured out that stopping a virus with no cure in its tracks without destroying the entire US economy and completely stopping American life is impossible...

Ah, no -- not really.  The obvious examples are Australia, with a very conservative government, and New Zealand, run by Socialists.  Both brought the virus to near zero and are keeping it there.  Both countries are more-or-less open, in the US meaning of the term.  So again here, the fault lies with the dickhead in the White House ... full stop.

Run by social democratics and are centre left to be exact. (New Zealand)

Here in the USA, anything left of center is considered socialist, at least by the Trumpist crowd.  Actually, by some mainstream conservatives too.

As said it is CENTRE left. So not completely left of centre. Any person regardless of political affiliation who would lump them as one group (socialist) is an idiot. There are always variations.

In America, we have the Left and the American Left. The American Left are a lot like us. They believe in the American Constitution, they value their American rights as much as we do, they value the America flag like we do, they value American tradition and they also believe in the American rule of law as well. The Left isn't paying attention as usual because the Left believes that we are to stupid to distinguish the difference between those on the American Left and them. I was pretty much educated by the American Left. I've been tangling with the Left for many years. Eric and Dave are on the Left. PB and Bob are some where in between the Left and American Left. Which isn't a good place be when the American Left see's the writing on the wall begins to move to the the American side.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-15-2020, 08:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 05:03 PM)taramarie Wrote: As said it is CENTRE left. So not completely left of centre. Any person regardless of political affiliation who would lump them as one group (socialist) is an idiot. There are always variations.

In America, we have the Left and the American Left. The American Left are a lot like us. They believe in the American Constitution, they value their American rights as much as we do, they value the America flag like we do, they value American tradition and they also believe in the American rule of law as well. The Left isn't paying attention as usual because the Left believes that we are to stupid to distinguish the difference between those on the American Left and them. I was pretty much educated by the American Left. I've been tangling with the Left for many years. Eric and Dave are on the Left. PB and Bob are some where in between the Left and American Left. Which isn't a good place be when the American Left see's the writing on the wall begins to move to the the American side.

The movement is not from the new values to the old.  The Republican alliance is between the racists, the elites, and those small government hedonists who expect to stay in the unravelling state forever.  If you step back to Bush 43’s war, there was the Neo Con idea of using force to institute neocolonialism, which got stepped on by insurrection and led to a conclusion that putting boots on the ground was a bad idea.

It looks like the crisis heart issues we are seeing right now are going to diminish or destroy the conservative thinking entirely, as usual in the last several crises.  The usual high dislike of the old values ought to finish the job.  Classic is sort of in denial.

But I sympathize with one culture’s opinion of what is important to another culture is often pretty simplistic.  It is not surprising that another culture will be in another place, and concerned with different issues.

[Eric the Green]

(06-15-2020, 08:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 05:03 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 04:44 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 04:21 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 12:01 PM)David Horn Wrote: Ah, no -- not really.  The obvious examples are Australia, with a very conservative government, and New Zealand, run by Socialists.  Both brought the virus to near zero and are keeping it there.  Both countries are more-or-less open, in the US meaning of the term.  So again here, the fault lies with the dickhead in the White House ... full stop.

Run by social democratics and are centre left to be exact. (New Zealand)

Here in the USA, anything left of center is considered socialist, at least by the Trumpist crowd.  Actually, by some mainstream conservatives too.

As said it is CENTRE left. So not completely left of centre. Any person regardless of political affiliation who would lump them as one group (socialist) is an idiot. There are always variations.

In America, we have the Left and the American Left. The American Left are a lot like us. They believe in the American Constitution, they value their American rights as much as we do, they value the America flag like we do, they value American tradition and they also believe in the American rule of law as well. The Left isn't paying attention as usual because the Left believes that we are to stupid to distinguish the difference between those on the American Left and them. I was pretty much educated by the American Left. I've been tangling with the Left for many years. Eric and Dave are on the Left. PB and Bob are some where in between the Left and American Left. Which isn't a good place be when the American Left see's the writing on the wall begins to move to the the American side.

Most people on the American Left support gun control, which according to you means they don't believe in the American Constitution, since the second amendment (the only invalid amendment IMO) is the only one you care about.

You right-wing guys use the word "American" a lot. Johnny Carson used to play a character named Floyd R. Turbo, who represents you guys. He would come out and give a comical, ridiculous opinion after introducing himself as Floyd R Turbo, 'merican, and give a salute. He would usually wear some kind of uniform.

I think if you were in France, you say that you believe in France. If you were in Brazil you would say you believe in Brazil. You believe in authority. That's basically what conservatives do. You guys are authoritarian personalities. You find comfort in the traditions. You like to have someone who can tell you what's right. You also like to be in authority yourself so you can tell others what to do. You believe in hierarchy, order and tradition. You like things to stay the same, according to the old authorities. Symbols of America mean more to you that the reality. If someone bends a knee during the national anthem or burns an American flag, that is an assault on your personal identity as an American. Having that group identity and the comfort that this identity provides for you is important. You are thereby sanctioned by authority. You are patriotic, which means to you that you support your country whether it does right or wrong. Protests should not be allowed; obey the authority. Except of course, when you don't.

Being a social conservative, you believe that your group, the real "Americans," should rule over other groups, at least here in the good ol USA. You deny that you are a racist, but the word "American" also has the connotation that you support things that come from America, not from foreign countries. You think the way things are done in America are the right way, and that the way things are thought or done in Europe or Asia or somewhere else is not American, so you oppose them. You are xenophobic; you oppose lenient immigration; you think "Americans" are the people who are already here now, or better yet, have been here for two or three hundred years or so, and are mostly white Europeans descended from the colonialists. Of course, that means they were once European too, and this also may not include the natives who were here for 13,000 years, so your "American" view makes zero sense. But that doesn't matter to you. Your views are based on your fears and your need for traditional authority, not on questioning authority, or on any kind of logic or intuition.

[Eric the Green]

(06-15-2020, 05:30 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 04:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I hate to give you the news, but a number of countries did just that; they stopped a virus with no cure, and are now re-opening their economy. The USA could not do that because we have no leadership. You and your dear leader wish to sacrifice people who are older than you just to save the economy. But what has happened is we both got more older people dying AND screwed up our economy big time because we had no leadership. We need to fix that in November.

Nitpick.  Is it the leader or the values he represents?  If you look at the bad presidents club - Buchanan, Hoover, Bush 43, Trump - is it the people or the ideas that they tried to use after their time had gone by?

Pretty much both.

[Eric the Green]

(06-15-2020, 04:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 03:35 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 03:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I prefer to see the ENTIRE tape and be presented all that facts before I way in on the situation with George Floyd.

Gee.  I thought you were fact free.  You just did your worldview scattered with violent daydreams, not deal in facts.  But that tape has been on record and widely interpreted for several weeks now.  Judging from the response, the people are not waiting for you to interpret the facts and form your opinion.  That is no way to get anywhere.

I dunno, the stuff that I watched your folks do in Minneapolis and St Paul and other blue cities looked pretty violent. I think we may have to pass a bunch of laws that makes it legal to shoot your folks on sight and agree to pay more taxes to beef up our police forces. I mean, if we can't rely on liberals or Democrats to control their on shit then we are going have to adjust by doing the opposite. We may even have to establish borders and form mew states.

Yeah, we might. Us real Americans, the blue Americans, would be free to make progress if we broke away from Red America.

Actually, as I mentioned, you are just focusing on the riots, but that is old news. Protests now are mostly peaceful. Curfews and national guards were called in when the rioting was getting out of control. Blue cities restored order just fine. The outside agitators who caused them are mostly gone now; they failed to create their race war. Blacks and whites are marching together against them. Too bad for them! The white supremacists failed. Most cities are blue anyway; your "real" red 'murica is mostly rural and ex-urban now. Two red cities are in Oklahoma, Oklahoma City, which has the most police violence, and Tulsa, which blew up black Wall Street a century ago. Of course, even in those cities, the red/blue margin is narrowing.

My grandparents were from there, and my Mom grew up in Oklahoma City. Then she went to Radcliff (Harvard) and was one of the first women to get a degree in bacteriology. I visited Tulsa in 1960. So I got there long before the drumpyhead. My grandfather built most of the bridges in Oklahoma and had an office in the capital building. My Dad was fifth-generation rural Indiana. You see, I'm from real 'merican stock

[Eric the Green]

(06-15-2020, 03:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 04:25 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Polls right now are showing the public is on the side of justice rather than law and order now. They support black lives matter. Support for the president is falling because he represses peaceful protests with the military. The riots mostly ceased some days ago while peaceful protests continued and swayed the country to their side. If more riots happen because of more cop murders, it will reflect badly on Trump because he is the incumbent, much as it did on Johnson and Humphrey in 1968 because THEY were the incumbent. According to Lichtman, if riots continue it will not cause people to support Trump because he's for law and order, it will cause people to support Biden because the country is falling apart under Trump.

Yep. The opportunity to act is right now. You better ram through a bunch of liberal legislation that favors criminals, thugs, looters and privileged  punks    who like destroying property really  quick. I mean, you don't want people to have time think about what the Left wants and how it will impact them and their families or what the repercussions will be for them down the road. As far as the 57 cops who resigned in Buffalo, that's 57 less cops for a dumb liberal like you to call on during a time of need. Like I said, I'm not going feel bad for a bunch of clueless blues in need who basically helped/let  the Left  get rid of the bulk  their cops. As far a I know, Trump wasn't the person who had his knee on the back of George Floyd's neck or the person who killed the aggressive black guy running away with their taser. If the taser was a real gun, the cop would have been wounded or dead. I don't expect a dumb liberal or a clueless liberal or an emotional liberal to think about that but then again Cops Lives Don't Matter to the Left or Black Lives Matter. You just keep fucking up and keep showing us more and keep weakening law enforcement because we are waiting for you to give us the opportunity to clean house so to speak. I don't know if you'll be alive (I hope so) or if you'll be unfortunate to be reborn but either way it's not going to be nice. Personally, I prefer to see the ENTIRE tape and be presented all that facts before I way in on the situation with George Floyd.

Oh well, my mayor is saying he won't defund the police. Oh well, have to vote him out! Hey, I bet Derrick Chauvin and the guy who murdered Brooks in Atlanta voted for Trump. Wanna bet? He's the one militarizing the police and promising to take back Seattle if Seattle doesn't. He's the racist president who wants to exclude everyone from coming here from "shit hole" countries.

That's "weigh" in, and I'm sure you'll find some reason to excuse Chauvin for keeping his knee on Floyd's neck for 9 minutes even after he said "I can't breathe." Cops are supposed to protect us, not kill us. Is that a distinction that eludes you, Classic Xer?  Didn't you say something about the rights of Americans? Was George Floyd an American? You think rioters should just be shot. Isn't there something in the Bill of Rights about the right to a trial and a jury?

I know we need police, but some of their work and the funds that support it could be shifted to all the social workers that resolve things without weapons. But Reaganomics cut all that back, so now we have no-one but police to settle problems in the community. Since you support Reaganomics, because that's real 'murican, you support making the police do work they are not trained to do, and resolve situations by violating our rights. But you say you favor rights? Oh yeah? You did say that. Somehow I don't want you sitting as a judge.

[Eric the Green]

(06-15-2020, 02:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 12:01 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-14-2020, 05:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-14-2020, 03:02 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-14-2020, 02:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Me, I'd prefer to keep Trump despite his personal shortcomings personality wise. The dude is an asshole but at least he's not going to screw the entire country.

Hasn't he already screwed the country?  He is refusing to save lives against the virus?  He is refusing to listen to the people about ending racist policing?

I guess you haven't figured out that stopping a virus with no cure in its tracks without destroying the entire US economy and completely stopping American life is impossible...

Ah, no -- not really.  The obvious examples are Australia, with a very conservative government, and New Zealand, run by Socialists.  Both brought the virus to near zero and are keeping it there.  Both countries are more-or-less open, in the US meaning of the term.  So again here, the fault lies with the dickhead in the White House ... full stop.

I guess you may have to pack up and move there until COVID19 is no longer a major issue here. It could save your life.  So, what did you think of all your massive amounts of protestors who ignored the Covid19 warnings and the social distancing rules and so forth? I mean, you seemed pretty pissed about a few hundred ours ignoring them. You have to be way more pissed about them because there was way more of them. Hell, according to the coroners report, George Floyd was even infected with COVID19 which also contributed to the cause of his death.

No, according to the autopsy, it did not.

We should be pissed about that I guess, but at least our guys wore masks and didn't carry guns.

Not to mention that they weren't stupid

How about this: we can be pissed at your guys, and you guys can be pissed at our guys. Fair bargain? Kinda the way it is anyway.

Hey, maybe if the trumpdick in the White House has to pack up and move out in January, we won't have to pack up and move to New Zealand!

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-16-2020, 12:31 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Hey, maybe if the trumpdick in the White House has to pack up and move out in January, we won't have to pack up and move to New Zealand!

Nitpick:  February, alas.

[pbrower2a]

(06-15-2020, 04:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 03:35 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 03:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I prefer to see the ENTIRE tape and be presented all that facts before I way in on the situation with George Floyd.

Gee.  I thought you were fact free.  You just did your worldview scattered with violent daydreams, not deal in facts.  But that tape has been on record and widely interpreted for several weeks now.  Judging from the response, the people are not waiting for you to interpret the facts and form your opinion.  That is no way to get anywhere.

I dunno, the stuff that I watched your folks do in Minneapolis and St Paul and other blue cities looked pretty violent. I think we may have to pass a bunch of laws that makes it legal to shoot your folks on sight and agree to pay more taxes to beef up our police forces. I mean, if we can't rely on liberals or Democrats to control their on shit then we are going have to adjust by doing the opposite. We may even have to establish borders and form mew states.

Do you want a good metaphor for violence?

Quote: If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.

George Orwell

http://www.brainyquote.com/authors/george-orwell-quotes

So George Floyd endured having a boot or a knee 'stomping' on his throat for 'only' nine minutes -- enough, of course, to suffocate him. That too is violence from people that we expect to use violence against us only if we are ourselves violent. Sure, pull a gun on a cop and expect to die.  Sure, try winning a fist-fight with a cop and you might feel a taser. I would never challenge the K-9 unit, would you? 

To be sure, exceptional misconduct of government, business, and criminals can lead to excessive responses. It's time for a reasoned discourse on how the police are to behave. Bad cops need be fired; as it is with accountants, those lax enough about financial controls to make an embezzlement possible are worthless. Pointless police brutality steals something far worse than money -- people's lives.

If this discourse isn't held in Minneapolis then it will be held somewhere else. I won't say where. If you want any specific predictions... Eric does astrology. I don't.

There are places with brutal, reckless police forces swift to shoot people who seem like bad guys. I'm not naming any countries... but you do not want to live in such places. If I must choose between a mugger and Tontons Macoutes or the Gestapo, then I will take the mugger as an enemy and the cops and the legal system as an enforcer against robbery. 

OK, black parents are often having a conversation with their kids. Make sure to be deferential to cops, especially white cops, because they don't understand you... even if you are an angel. If you are playing cowboys and Indians and you see a cop car... then drop your toy guns then and there.

[pbrower2a]

(06-15-2020, 08:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 05:03 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 04:44 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 04:21 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 12:01 PM)David Horn Wrote: Ah, no -- not really.  The obvious examples are Australia, with a very conservative government, and New Zealand, run by Socialists.  Both brought the virus to near zero and are keeping it there.  Both countries are more-or-less open, in the US meaning of the term.  So again here, the fault lies with the dickhead in the White House ... full stop.

Run by social democratics and are centre left to be exact. (New Zealand)

Here in the USA, anything left of center is considered socialist, at least by the Trumpist crowd.  Actually, by some mainstream conservatives too.

As said it is CENTRE left. So not completely left of centre. Any person regardless of political affiliation who would lump them as one group (socialist) is an idiot. There are always variations.

In America, we have the Left and the American Left. The American Left are a lot like us. They believe in the American Constitution, they value their American rights as much as we do, they value the America flag like we do, they value American tradition and they also believe in the American rule of law as well. The Left isn't paying attention as usual because the Left believes that we are to stupid to distinguish the difference between those on the American Left and them. I was pretty much educated by the American Left. I've been tangling with the Left for many years. Eric and Dave are on the Left. PB and Bob are some where in between the Left and American Left. Which isn't a good place be when the American Left see's the writing on the wall begins to move to the the American side.

It is odd that I thought myself rather cosmopolitan for recognizing the legitimacy of other cultures. If I had a Japanese wife then our abode would likely have multiple bonsai trees and plentiful Japanese-style art prints. If I had an Italian wife I would probably listen to more Italian opera and fewer German and Austrian symphonies or sting quartets. OK, "American" does not define one's culture. Even in music, country music and rhythm-and-blues could hardly be more different, yet both are undeniably American -- American enough to be a taste that one acquires with difficulty if one is a Finn. 

I consider the American political heritage a good basis for any needful reform of society. We do not throw the wisdom of the Founding Fathers out just because we want a more just world. Those Founding Fathers allowed some flexibility in the system, although they did get slavery and male chauvinism wrong. Abolition of slavery was still a pipe dream in 1776 and 1787, and gender equity was outside of the realm of practical thought at that time. Then again I am not going to fault the Founding Fathers for failing to anticipate technology that would radically change their world. The Founding Fathers were extremely rigid on one thing: that despotism and dictatorship were out of the question then. Most of us concur with that. Dictatorship and despotism have been un-American since the latter part of the 18th century. But they have been "un-Swiss" and "un-Dutch" since 1815, "un-British" since the 1840's... and "un-Italian" and "un-Japanese" since 1945. Maybe a Napoleon might force institutional changes that pass the test of time only for him to do something stupid to Russia... 

In three and a half years, Donald Trump has done much that many of us consider un-American not so much because it is right-wing but instead because it is done with a despotic manner. 

I admit to being un-American to the extent that I believe in certain things that transcend national identity. Just look at my CD collection; it would be more at home in Tara's Slovakia than here. (Maybe it comes from being raised around so many Polish-Americans that my taste in folk music has a Slavic bias even if I am not a Slav). But that is a triviality. I never did get into rhythm-and-blues, and country music is too intellectually-hollow for my taste. For something less trivial... if anything ever happened to American democracy I might want out. Dictatorships and despotic cliques have a tendency to turn up the nationalism while debasing life in every other way. 

I consider the adulation that Donald Trump gets un-American. We have no heritage of his style of government in America. The only Americans who can know that style of government are those who have lived where freedom either does not exist (let us say Cuba) or did not exist at the time (the Soviet bloc and many fascist regimes). 

I try to harmonize my liberalism with the American political heritage. Technological, social, and cultural change are inevitable until we achieve perfection... OK, perfection does not exist in real life.

[David Horn]

(06-15-2020, 05:03 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 04:44 PM)David Horn Wrote: Here in the USA, anything left of center is considered socialist, at least by the Trumpist crowd.  Actually, by some mainstream conservatives too.

As said it is CENTRE left. So not completely left of centre. Any person regardless of political affiliation who would lump them as one group (socialist) is an idiot. There are always variations.

We Americans paint with primary colors and broad brushes. Subtlety is not part of our brand. So yes, we get things wrong by going either too far or not far enough. That said, most of us head in roughly the right direction. There are exceptions, of course, and the exceptions have mostly aligned on what is nominally our fringes, and we have more than two of those. For example, the Trumpists and the Religious Right are allies (of sorts) but are quite different. The SJWs are not all alike either, with BLM and Antifa being occasional allies and occasional adversaries. We're a mess.

[David Horn]

(06-15-2020, 10:57 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 05:30 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 04:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I hate to give you the news, but a number of countries did just that; they stopped a virus with no cure, and are now re-opening their economy. The USA could not do that because we have no leadership. You and your dear leader wish to sacrifice people who are older than you just to save the economy. But what has happened is we both got more older people dying AND screwed up our economy big time because we had no leadership. We need to fix that in November.

Nitpick.  Is it the leader or the values he represents?  If you look at the bad presidents club - Buchanan, Hoover, Bush 43, Trump - is it the people or the ideas that they tried to use after their time had gone by?

Pretty much both.

Here, I agree with Eric. Trump is bad personally and ideologically.  He may be unique in that. Even Buchannan was a basically decent and worthwhile individual.  He just had ideas and methods that were well past their sell date.  Hoover, much the same.  But Trump is different.  He's personally repugnant.  He set a new low for the office -- one we're best not challenging again, ever!

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-16-2020, 10:36 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 10:57 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 05:30 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-15-2020, 04:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I hate to give you the news, but a number of countries did just that; they stopped a virus with no cure, and are now re-opening their economy. The USA could not do that because we have no leadership. You and your dear leader wish to sacrifice people who are older than you just to save the economy. But what has happened is we both got more older people dying AND screwed up our economy big time because we had no leadership. We need to fix that in November.

Nitpick.  Is it the leader or the values he represents?  If you look at the bad presidents club - Buchanan, Hoover, Bush 43, Trump - is it the people or the ideas that they tried to use after their time had gone by?

Pretty much both.

Here, I agree with Eric. Trump is bad personally and ideologically.  He may be unique in that. Even Buchannan was a basically decent and worthwhile individual.  He just had ideas and methods that were well past their sell date.  Hoover, much the same.  But Trump is different.  He's personally repugnant.  He set a new low for the office -- one we're best not challenging again, ever!

Agreed. Eric just snipped a sentence where I agreed with you.