Millennials with college degrees don’t favor censorship

[Dan '82]

http://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/05/03/millennia...ensorship/?

Quote:There’s a specter haunting the academy. The specter of “red guards” destroying lives and tearing down Western civilization and all its accomplishments in the interests of antinomian leveling impulses through denunciations and purges. (here is the latest instance; the whole thing leaves me yawning, because too few people have the courage or gall to stand up for what they know is right, so this will happen again and again and again)
I am plain in my view that this is a problem. Some of my friends in the academy agree, but in the end they make different choices about priorities. Others don’t think this is a problem at all (and honestly, they clearly think that free speech is more about speech that they think is acceptable). Ultimately I don’t think that this will end well; I’m most certainly going to be on the other side of people whom I consider friends if and when the end of our current liberal democratic order collapses of its own contradictions.
But this isn’t about that. Rather, it’s about an aspect of it: are Millennials, those born after 1980, who go to college more opposed to freedom of speech than previous generations? Is this what’s driving the flair up of campus events? The answer, as clear in the GSS is that Millennials who have gone to college are not more censorious...




http://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/05/03/millennia...ensorship/?

[Ragnarök_62]

(05-03-2017, 08:56 PM)Dan Wrote: http://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/05/03/millennia...ensorship/?

Quote:There’s a specter haunting the academy. The specter of “red guards” destroying lives and tearing down Western civilization and all its accomplishments in the interests of antinomian leveling impulses through denunciations and purges. (here is the latest instance; the whole thing leaves me yawning, because too few people have the courage or gall to stand up for what they know is right, so this will happen again and again and again)
I am plain in my view that this is a problem. Some of my friends in the academy agree, but in the end they make different choices about priorities. Others don’t think this is a problem at all (and honestly, they clearly think that free speech is more about speech that they think is acceptable). Ultimately I don’t think that this will end well; I’m most certainly going to be on the other side of people whom I consider friends if and when the end of our current liberal democratic order collapses of its own contradictions.
But this isn’t about that. Rather, it’s about an aspect of it: are Millennials, those born after 1980, who go to college more opposed to freedom of speech than previous generations? Is this what’s driving the flair up of campus events? The answer, as clear in the GSS is that Millennials who have gone to college are not more censorious...




http://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/05/03/millennia...ensorship/?

+





Dan, the man.  Perhaps, but not in Berzerkly.  Death to the antifa, the real FASCISTS,  Of course, I do agree there's a very large contingent of Millie. antifa beaters who want to fuck over these pansies.

OMG,  BAMN.  I suppose, it's too late.  Here's a nice nuke target for N. Korea. Berzerkly is a lost cause.
Either N. Korea or here's the place, yes the place for nuclear repository. Hopefully, the real fascists will get
nuked and hopefully will get evolved by radiation to a sentient lifeform.    I hope those cunts which are part of antifa get evolved via gamma rays. I hope the cucks get evolved by stray neutrons.

Transracialism:  This is a fucking joke. Don't these idiots know about DNA tests.  Why fake transracialism when you, like Rags can be the fucking real thing? I, mean if some antifa cuck got in my face about being Euro American, I'd have a print out of my own DNA results, stuff it in their face, and say, "look here, I don't have to fake this shit, you cucks/cunts.  I'm for real. " Look, when I was at an Obama rally in 2008, a nice African American woman , said , "oh, you have more 'issues' than we have, when I told here of my Native American heritage.  ... Well, OK, yeah, I guess, I do have some family/generational "issues". And... yes. It ain't child's play. Here's the deal, in the 2T, my eldest cousin ['43 cohort] confirmed Cherokee ancestry,  and my own DNA validated this, there was a lot of drama, too much drama. ] I really don't think these wanna be's get it. ... How the fuck would you like being 10 years old, and innocently told an aunt that trout tastes like shit, and then get a snappy result stating "you should like fish because you're part Cherokee!" I'm sorry, but's that's just some of the drama I've been through.
10 years old, man, and you get some heavy stuff like that. I know racial drama, big time. Look, heavy stuff laid down on 10 year olds hurts and ... still hurts. Screw these wanna be's. They have no idea what getting hit over the head with the reality is.






Cher,  Yeah.  You're correct.   "Half Breed" sux.

[pbrower2a]

Cher is part First Peoples in origin.

[Ragnarök_62]

(05-04-2017, 01:48 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: But you think it's OK for Trump Duginist scum to be violent?

It depends on who provoked who.






There's a pattern here. Antifa are the real fascists/terrorists. Anyone who uses violence to further some political agenda is a terrorist. If the Trumpers do that, then the same judgment goes to them. Just look at what happened in Olympia Washington on May Day. They're also fucking litterbugs who have no have no regard for mother earth. Even the Trumpers don't go and break shit like the antifa.

[Galen]

(05-04-2017, 04:20 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(05-04-2017, 01:48 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: But you think it's OK for Trump Duginist scum to be violent?

There's a pattern here. Antifa are the real fascists/terrorists. Anyone who uses violence to further some political agenda is a terrorist. If the Trumpers do that, then the same judgment goes to them. Just look at what happened in Olympia Washington on May Day. They're also  fucking litterbugs who have no have no regard for mother earth. Even the Trumpers don't go and break shit like the antifa.

When the very people you claim to be fighting for are throwing rocks at you it is time to think about what you are doing.  So far as I know the Trump crowds haven't been engaging in this kind of destructive behavior.  So far when I look into these incidents it is always the Antifa crowd that starts the violence.  Given that these people are Communists anyway, this is hardly surprising.

[pbrower2a]

(05-05-2017, 03:56 AM)Galen Wrote:

(05-04-2017, 04:20 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(05-04-2017, 01:48 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: But you think it's OK for Trump Duginist scum to be violent?

There's a pattern here. Antifa are the real fascists/terrorists. Anyone who uses violence to further some political agenda is a terrorist. If the Trumpers do that, then the same judgment goes to them. Just look at what happened in Olympia Washington on May Day. They're also  fucking litterbugs who have no have no regard for mother earth. Even the Trumpers don't go and break shit like the antifa.

When the very people you claim to be fighting for are throwing rocks at you it is time to think about what you are doing.  So far as I know the Trump crowds haven't been engaging in this kind of destructive behavior.  So far when I look into these incidents it is always the Antifa crowd that starts the violence.  Given that these people are Communists anyway, this is hardly surprising.

They are not on my side.

This said, we must remember that Donald Trump has resurrected the class struggle by a path intended to lead to the subjection of 95% of the people on behalf a Master Class of about 2%. That Master Class includes all of the traditional elites that Karl Marx said exploit Humanity to the fullest if they can get away with it:

1. big landowners, at one time simply owners of the farmland but now exploitative urban landlords like Donald Trump
2. industrialists and financiers
3. sell-out intellectuals ( lobbyists, right-wing hack writers, corrupt clergy, and political puppets of the Right)

and a class that emerged in 'Socialist' states and capitalist states alike:

4. the managerial nomenklatura which needs no property to have the means of exploiting the masses severely. See Milovan Djilas' The New Class for a description of this reality in 'Socialist' Yugoslavia but now very real in the USA. 

The merger of Government and Big Business can happen two ways: when a corrupt and tyrannical government nationalizes property in the supposed name of the workers but gives the workers no more say in economics than in politics, or when Big Business captures government, as in Italy under Mussolini or America under Donald Trump.

If we are fortunate we will get a replay of 1776 in America.

[Warren Dew]

(05-05-2017, 07:27 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: If we are fortunate we will get a replay of 1776 in America.

Where property owners destroyed and replaced the state?  We should be so lucky.

[Ragnarök_62]

(05-05-2017, 08:10 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(05-05-2017, 07:27 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: If we are fortunate we will get a replay of 1776 in America.

Where property owners destroyed and replaced the state?  We should be so lucky.

?  Let it be known that I support the destruction of plantations. Anything is better than the plantation economy Warren.
The company store is = slavery by any name.

[Galen]

(05-05-2017, 08:10 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(05-05-2017, 07:27 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: If we are fortunate we will get a replay of 1776 in America.

Where property owners destroyed and replaced the state?  We should be so lucky.

Indeed, they created possibly a society with more freedom for the individual than has ever been seen before.  Unfortunately it didn't stay that way.

[David Horn]

(05-06-2017, 04:53 AM)Galen Wrote:

(05-05-2017, 08:10 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(05-05-2017, 07:27 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: If we are fortunate we will get a replay of 1776 in America.

Where property owners destroyed and replaced the state?  We should be so lucky.

Indeed, they created possibly a society with more freedom for the individual than has ever been seen before.  Unfortunately it didn't stay that way.

Freedom in its extreme form is just a license for the rich and powerful to prey on the not rich and weak.  Show any example to the contrary that lasted longer than a few years and I may change my mind.

[pbrower2a]

(05-06-2017, 04:53 AM)Galen Wrote:

(05-05-2017, 08:10 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(05-05-2017, 07:27 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: If we are fortunate we will get a replay of 1776 in America.

Where property owners destroyed and replaced the state?  We should be so lucky.

Indeed, they created possibly a society with more freedom for the individual than has ever been seen before.  Unfortunately it didn't stay that way.

Hunger, exposure, ignorance. and gross exploitation are not freedom.

[Skabungus]

So, on the far left, you have antifa. It is a collection of left wing anarchist and a few (yes, very few) communists. Mostly anarchists. These people show up at demonstrations and break shit. That is what they get noted for in the news anyhow. The truth of the matter is that only the black bloc component of antifa shows up to break shit, cause trouble, etc. The vast majority of antifa are doing things like handing out water, giving first aid, directions, and serving as legal observers to document the fulfillment of/or non fulfillment of the permit. They document/witness and otherwise observe what is going on and show up in court to testify on matters concerning the demonstration. So, yes antifa black bloc assholes break shit, start fights and so on. Nothing new here! I don't endorse or participate in said actions. I find them truly counterproductive.

That said, antifa does a lot to organize the left and it is done peacefully and behind the scenes. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Antifa organized the Whitefish community (ranchers, resort owners, soccer moms and storekeeps) to stop the Neo-nazi march in Whitefish and to essentially drive Richard Spencer and his crew out of town. The network of folks antifa put in place is still together and functioning. That's right, leftwing anarchists worked to bring largely conservative rural communities in Montana together to oppose Alt-right efforts. Go figure.

Two years ago there were less than 10 antifa groups in America. There were well established groups in NYNY, Boston and a couple other east coast cities, and there were a few in California. Since August of 2016 Antifa groups have been popping up like poppies all over the country. At last I checked there were 5 in Michigan alone. That should tell you something. Antifa is comprised largely of Millies and Xers. Yes, there are a few grizzled Boomers hanging around, but the vast majority are Millies. Interesting, don't you think?

Take a look at the right and particularly the Alt-right. Collectively they've been busy lately with say, taking over wildlife refuges, burning down mosques, and various other genuinely violent displays. Frankly, this wing of the American paleo-politic has been consistently violent and threatening since Timmy McVeigh blew up a Ryder rental truck in Oklahoma City. Well, to be honest, the violent history goes back to Ruby Ridge, and The Order popping radio talk show personalities. These folks are part and parcel the tip of the Trumpian spear. They can be seen staffing Trump campaign offices, acting up at Trump rallies and now, showing up in gas masks with bats and shields at Trump victory marches, or at Berkeley face-offs with antifa. Yes, that's right, armed for combat, showing up at demonstrations to pick fights with antifa black bloc. This is what Boomer xer action looks like.

My point is, the right has been aggressive and violent for a long, long time in both physical acts and in the policies they push to marginalize large segments of society. The past 30 years has seen a constant stream of violent right activity including everything from Neo-Nazis and Christian Identity people to violent anti-abortion activism, and the burning of churches and mosques. Again, this has been a constant thing in America for some time. Violent right wing action: terrorism. Boomer terrorism. Bo Gritz and Randy Weaver, and Timmy McVeigh were not millies.

The left hasn't been aggressive and violent since say, the Weather Underground, the Black Panthers and SLA where roaming around. America has never had a Red Brigade, or Baader Meinhof group, or Shining Path to deal with. The left has been generally peaceful, focusing on inclusiveness as opposed to division. Focusing on progressive, peaceful, inclusive action is what get's you labeled a "snowflake" .

So now, in the face of Trump and all that he represents, and all the wingnuts he has emboldened, the far left is materializing in opposition. It is taking shape in the form of marches for science, women's issues, etc., etc. At some of these black bloc elements have trashed ATM's, some windows and one limo. There have been some head wounds and a couple of stabbings (antifa being the victims). One antifa person got shot by a Milo fan with a hand gun. Really the only reasonable label to apply to these events is CIVIL UNREST. That is all it is, right now anyway. No post offices have been bombed; no GOP offices torched; antifa hasn't gunned down Rush or Sean Hannity; and no anti-abortion preachers have been shot. So, to date, the far left has created some civil unrest. Millies out for their participation ribbons?

Everyone has their panties in a knot because a bunch of angry millies are donning black and picking fights at demonstrations, yet, these same people who point in horror at left wing direct actions against ATM's and white trash in red hats, will roll their eyes and dismiss church burnings and executions (think Roof) as the acts of loners, or rogue elements, not representative of the American right.

You've been conditioned well.

[Skabungus]

Oh, and before someone says that antifa is a bunch of spoiled middle class white kids.....

https://www.facebook.com/186097080085044...=3&theater

[Galen]

(05-08-2017, 12:33 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(05-06-2017, 04:53 AM)Galen Wrote:

(05-05-2017, 08:10 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(05-05-2017, 07:27 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: If we are fortunate we will get a replay of 1776 in America.

Where property owners destroyed and replaced the state?  We should be so lucky.

Indeed, they created possibly a society with more freedom for the individual than has ever been seen before.  Unfortunately it didn't stay that way.

Hunger, exposure, ignorance. and gross exploitation  are not freedom.

You do realize that life in the nineteenth century was far better than that in earlier eras.  I would recommend a set of classroom lectures on the nineteenth and twentieth century economic history by Murray Rothbard.  Oddly enough one of books he uses was written by Gabriel Kolko, no a friend of the free market, who admitted that many of the evils attributed to lassez-faire economic were not a consequence free markets.

Unfortunately, there is zero chance that you will listen to Rothbard and then make a judgment about his ideas.

[Odin]

(05-08-2017, 01:00 PM)Skabungus Wrote: So, on the far left, you have antifa.  It is a collection of left wing anarchist and a few (yes, very few) communists.  Mostly anarchists.  These people show up at demonstrations and break shit.  That is what they get noted for in the news anyhow.  The truth of the matter is that only the black bloc component of antifa shows up to break shit, cause trouble, etc.  The vast majority of antifa are doing things like handing out water, giving first aid, directions, and serving as legal observers to document the fulfillment of/or non fulfillment of the permit.  They document/witness and otherwise observe what is going on and show up in court to testify on matters concerning the demonstration.  So, yes antifa black bloc assholes break shit, start fights and so on.  Nothing new here!  I don't endorse or participate in said actions.  I find them truly counterproductive.

That said, antifa does a lot to organize the left and it is done peacefully and behind the scenes.  Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.  Antifa organized the Whitefish community (ranchers, resort owners, soccer moms and storekeeps) to stop the Neo-nazi march in Whitefish and to essentially drive Richard Spencer and his crew out of town.  The network of folks antifa put in place is still together and functioning.  That's right, leftwing anarchists worked to bring largely conservative rural communities in Montana together to oppose Alt-right efforts.  Go figure.

Two years ago there were less than 10 antifa groups in America.  There were well established groups in NYNY, Boston and a couple other east coast cities, and there were a few in California.  Since August of 2016 Antifa groups have been popping up like poppies all over the country.  At last I checked there were 5 in Michigan alone.  That should tell you something.  Antifa is comprised largely of Millies and Xers.  Yes, there are a few grizzled Boomers hanging around, but the vast majority are Millies.  Interesting, don't you think?  

Take a look at the right and particularly the Alt-right.  Collectively they've been busy lately with say, taking over wildlife refuges, burning down mosques, and various other genuinely violent displays.  Frankly, this wing of the American paleo-politic has been consistently violent and threatening since Timmy McVeigh blew up a Ryder rental truck in Oklahoma City.  Well, to be honest, the violent history goes back to Ruby Ridge, and The Order popping radio talk show personalities.  These folks are part and parcel the tip of the Trumpian spear.  They can be seen staffing Trump campaign offices, acting up at Trump rallies and now, showing up in gas masks with bats and shields at Trump victory marches, or at Berkeley face-offs with antifa.  Yes, that's right, armed for combat, showing up at demonstrations to pick fights with antifa black bloc.  This is what Boomer xer action looks like.

My point is, the right has been aggressive and violent for a long, long time in both physical acts and in the policies they push to marginalize large segments of society. The past 30 years has seen a constant stream of violent right activity including everything from Neo-Nazis and Christian Identity people to violent anti-abortion activism, and the burning of churches and mosques.  Again, this has been a constant thing in America for some time.  Violent right wing action: terrorism.  Boomer terrorism.  Bo Gritz and Randy Weaver, and Timmy McVeigh were not millies.

The left hasn't been aggressive and violent since say, the Weather Underground, the Black Panthers and SLA where roaming around.  America has never had a Red Brigade, or Baader Meinhof group, or Shining Path to deal with.  The left has been generally peaceful, focusing on inclusiveness as opposed to division.  Focusing on progressive, peaceful, inclusive action is what get's you labeled a "snowflake" .

So now, in the face of Trump and all that he represents, and all the wingnuts he has emboldened, the far left is materializing in opposition.  It is taking shape in the form of marches for science, women's issues, etc., etc.  At some of these black bloc elements have trashed ATM's, some windows and one limo.  There have been some head wounds and a couple of stabbings (antifa being the victims).  One antifa person got shot by a Milo fan with a hand gun.  Really the only reasonable label to apply to these events is CIVIL UNREST.  That is all it is, right now anyway.  No post offices have been bombed; no GOP offices torched; antifa hasn't gunned down Rush or Sean Hannity; and no anti-abortion preachers have been shot.  So, to date, the far left has created some civil unrest.  Millies out for their participation ribbons?

Everyone has their panties in a knot because a bunch of angry millies are donning black and picking fights at demonstrations, yet, these same people who point in horror at left wing direct actions against ATM's and white trash in red hats, will roll their eyes and dismiss church burnings and executions (think Roof) as the acts of loners, or rogue elements, not representative of the American right.  

You've been conditioned well.

I think the spike in Antifa groups now is comparable to all the militant "wide-awake" groups that popped up in the late 1850s in the northern states. Progressive Millennials are being radicalized the same way the northern Gilded were.

[David Horn]

(05-09-2017, 03:44 AM)Galen Wrote: You do realize that life in the nineteenth century was far better than that in earlier eras...

Better for some, bad to crushing for others.  As usual, the powerful did extremely well and those who served the powerful did OK.  The rest were either living on the frontier or being beaten down on a regular basis.  Most of the frontier dwellers were homesteaders, with very high failure rates and early deaths, or the few success stories.  Not a brilliant story, but better than earlier periods.  Also, not a model for modernity.

[Skabungus]

Odin Wrote:

Skabungus Wrote:So, on the far left, you have antifa.  It is a collection of left wing anarchist and a few (yes, very few) communists.  Mostly anarchists.  These people show up at demonstrations and break shit.  That is what they get noted for in the news anyhow.  The truth of the matter is that only the black bloc component of antifa shows up to break shit, cause trouble, etc.  The vast majority of antifa are doing things like handing out water, giving first aid, directions, and serving as legal observers to document the fulfillment of/or non fulfillment of the permit.  They document/witness and otherwise observe what is going on and show up in court to testify on matters concerning the demonstration.  So, yes antifa black bloc assholes break shit, start fights and so on.  Nothing new here!  I don't endorse or participate in said actions.  I find them truly counterproductive.

That said, antifa does a lot to organize the left and it is done peacefully and behind the scenes.  Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.  Antifa organized the Whitefish community (ranchers, resort owners, soccer moms and storekeeps) to stop the Neo-nazi march in Whitefish and to essentially drive Richard Spencer and his crew out of town.  The network of folks antifa put in place is still together and functioning.  That's right, leftwing anarchists worked to bring largely conservative rural communities in Montana together to oppose Alt-right efforts.  Go figure.

Two years ago there were less than 10 antifa groups in America.  There were well established groups in NYNY, Boston and a couple other east coast cities, and there were a few in California.  Since August of 2016 Antifa groups have been popping up like poppies all over the country.  At last I checked there were 5 in Michigan alone.  That should tell you something.  Antifa is comprised largely of Millies and Xers.  Yes, there are a few grizzled Boomers hanging around, but the vast majority are Millies.  Interesting, don't you think?  

Take a look at the right and particularly the Alt-right.  Collectively they've been busy lately with say, taking over wildlife refuges, burning down mosques, and various other genuinely violent displays.  Frankly, this wing of the American paleo-politic has been consistently violent and threatening since Timmy McVeigh blew up a Ryder rental truck in Oklahoma City.  Well, to be honest, the violent history goes back to Ruby Ridge, and The Order popping radio talk show personalities.  These folks are part and parcel the tip of the Trumpian spear.  They can be seen staffing Trump campaign offices, acting up at Trump rallies and now, showing up in gas masks with bats and shields at Trump victory marches, or at Berkeley face-offs with antifa.  Yes, that's right, armed for combat, showing up at demonstrations to pick fights with antifa black bloc.  This is what Boomer xer action looks like.

My point is, the right has been aggressive and violent for a long, long time in both physical acts and in the policies they push to marginalize large segments of society. The past 30 years has seen a constant stream of violent right activity including everything from Neo-Nazis and Christian Identity people to violent anti-abortion activism, and the burning of churches and mosques.  Again, this has been a constant thing in America for some time.  Violent right wing action: terrorism.  Boomer terrorism.  Bo Gritz and Randy Weaver, and Timmy McVeigh were not millies.

The left hasn't been aggressive and violent since say, the Weather Underground, the Black Panthers and SLA where roaming around.  America has never had a Red Brigade, or Baader Meinhof group, or Shining Path to deal with.  The left has been generally peaceful, focusing on inclusiveness as opposed to division.  Focusing on progressive, peaceful, inclusive action is what get's you labeled a "snowflake" .

So now, in the face of Trump and all that he represents, and all the wingnuts he has emboldened, the far left is materializing in opposition.  It is taking shape in the form of marches for science, women's issues, etc., etc.  At some of these black bloc elements have trashed ATM's, some windows and one limo.  There have been some head wounds and a couple of stabbings (antifa being the victims).  One antifa person got shot by a Milo fan with a hand gun.  Really the only reasonable label to apply to these events is CIVIL UNREST.  That is all it is, right now anyway.  No post offices have been bombed; no GOP offices torched; antifa hasn't gunned down Rush or Sean Hannity; and no anti-abortion preachers have been shot.  So, to date, the far left has created some civil unrest.  Millies out for their participation ribbons?

Everyone has their panties in a knot because a bunch of angry millies are donning black and picking fights at demonstrations, yet, these same people who point in horror at left wing direct actions against ATM's and white trash in red hats, will roll their eyes and dismiss church burnings and executions (think Roof) as the acts of loners, or rogue elements, not representative of the American right.  

You've been conditioned well.

I think the spike in Antifa groups now is comparable to all the militant "wide-awake" groups that popped up in the late 1850s in the northern states. Progressive Millennials are being radicalized the same way the northern Gilded were.

That very well could be, but I still feel it is a different animal.  I'm getting to say "I told you so" to my moderate (both R and D) colleagues who said the left would never radicalize the way the right has been doing.  It has far from peaked out.  Look for further escalation from the left. 

The knee jerk reaction most people take is to ask, "so, you are saying we're going to have a civil war between radical leftists and Alt-right wackos?"  To wit I can only say, if it happens it will make great TV.

My sincere hope is a swelling of the center.  Please let there be a waking up of sane people prepared to get off their asses.

[The Wonkette]

(05-09-2017, 10:06 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(05-09-2017, 03:44 AM)Galen Wrote: You do realize that life in the nineteenth century was far better than that in earlier eras...

Better for some, bad to crushing for others.  As usual, the powerful did extremely well and those who served the powerful did OK.  The rest were either living on the frontier or being beaten down on a regular basis.  Most of the frontier dwellers were homesteaders, with very high failure rates and early deaths, or the few success stories.  Not a brilliant story, but better than earlier periods.  Also, not a model for modernity.

Even for the rich and well-connected, the 19th century medical tool set had definite drawbacks. Compare two assassination attempts, 100 years apart, James Garfield versus Ronald Reagan. Although Garfield's injury was far less serious, he eventually succumbed to it because of the limits of medical treatment in 1881; Reagan came close to death but with late 20th century technology, fully recovered and served out the remaining 7 years 10 months of his term, living ultimately to the ripe age of 94.

[Galen]

(05-09-2017, 11:40 AM)The Wonkette Wrote:

(05-09-2017, 10:06 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(05-09-2017, 03:44 AM)Galen Wrote: You do realize that life in the nineteenth century was far better than that in earlier eras...

Better for some, bad to crushing for others.  As usual, the powerful did extremely well and those who served the powerful did OK.  The rest were either living on the frontier or being beaten down on a regular basis.  Most of the frontier dwellers were homesteaders, with very high failure rates and early deaths, or the few success stories.  Not a brilliant story, but better than earlier periods.  Also, not a model for modernity.

Even for the rich and well-connected, the 19th century medical tool set had definite drawbacks.  Compare two assassination attempts, 100 years apart, James Garfield versus Ronald Reagan.  Although Garfield's injury was far less serious, he eventually succumbed to it because of the limits of medical treatment in 1881; Reagan came close to death but with late 20th century technology, fully recovered and served out the remaining 7 years 10 months of his term, living ultimately to the ripe age of 94.

The two of you are missing the point as usual.  The general rise in living standards of the nineteenth-century that lasted well into the twentieth century was a consequence of laisse-faire economics.  Now that we have pretty much had crony capitalism, a consequence of bitg government, for about the last thirty years it seems that living standards are decreasing.  You might want to spend some time contemplating the economic freedom index and the effects of the loss of economic freedom.

[David Horn]

(05-09-2017, 11:40 AM)The Wonkette Wrote:

(05-09-2017, 10:06 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(05-09-2017, 03:44 AM)Galen Wrote: You do realize that life in the nineteenth century was far better than that in earlier eras...

Better for some, bad to crushing for others.  As usual, the powerful did extremely well and those who served the powerful did OK.  The rest were either living on the frontier or being beaten down on a regular basis.  Most of the frontier dwellers were homesteaders, with very high failure rates and early deaths, or the few success stories.  Not a brilliant story, but better than earlier periods.  Also, not a model for modernity.

Even for the rich and well-connected, the 19th century medical tool set had definite drawbacks.  Compare two assassination attempts, 100 years apart, James Garfield versus Ronald Reagan.  Although Garfield's injury was far less serious, he eventually succumbed to it because of the limits of medical treatment in 1881; Reagan came close to death but with late 20th century technology, fully recovered and served out the remaining 7 years 10 months of his term, living ultimately to the ripe age of 94.

Good point.  There are so many ways modernity is preferable, that longing for the past seems foolish on its face.