If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory

[pbrower2a]

FoX News -- kicked butts that didn't need kicking when Obama was President and liked boots for Dubya and The Donald.

Integrity-free journalism.

[gabrielle]

Special Counsel Robert Mueller Impanels Washington Grand Jury in Russia Probe

Quote:Grand juries are powerful investigative tools that allow prosecutors to subpoena documents, put witnesses under oath and seek indictments, if there is evidence of a crime. Legal experts said that the decision by Mr. Mueller to impanel a grand jury suggests he believes he will need to subpoena records and take testimony from witnesses.

“This is yet a further sign that there is a long-term, large-scale series of prosecutions being contemplated and being pursued by the special counsel,” said Stephen I. Vladeck, a law professor at the University of Texas. “If there was already a grand jury in Alexandria looking at Flynn, there would be no need to reinvent the wheel for the same guy. This suggests that the investigation is bigger and wider than Flynn, perhaps substantially so.”

[pbrower2a]

Apparently the Crown Prince (Donald II of the House of Trump) is under investigation.

[David Horn]

(08-09-2017, 10:22 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Manafort was raided this morning by the FBI.

The pace is quickening.  This investigation may come to a head much sooner than I expected originally.  I'll be shocked if it leads to nothing.

[Eric the Green]

(08-09-2017, 01:31 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(08-09-2017, 12:32 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-09-2017, 10:22 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Manafort was raided this morning by the FBI.

The pace is quickening.  This investigation may come to a head much sooner than I expected originally.  I'll be shocked if it leads to nothing.

As you might have ascertained I am at times a frustrated cop. There were / are many law enforcement and government investigative personnel in my extended family. Even a few CIA spooks through the years.

From the very beginning (note my original post) I've had horse' sense about this case. If I were an actual cop I'd be smelling blood.

Your senses seem to be good about this whole situation so far, so we'll see.

[pbrower2a]

(08-09-2017, 10:22 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Manafort was raided this morning by the FBI.

It's going to take months to sort this out. It will be worth it, unless  the mess allows the third Emperor in all but name of the DPRK (and let me cite some snark on Archer in which Archer denounces North Korea as undemocratic, not representative the people, clearly not a republic, and not for the Korean People) to incinerate Seoul, Tokyo, Shanghai, Honolulu, or Guam...

In view of the contempt that President Trump has shown for the decencies of republican government (notice the small "r") I can see this investigation leading to an exposure of the corruption of our political system. Maybe we will need the scarring effect of an economic purge that sears the selfish greed out of our economic elites if imposing mass hardship far worse than any people who have lived only in America (except if blacks in the pre-1965 South or First peoples on the poorest Reservations) can know.

At the least we have probable cause, and such is upheld because charges have yet to be dropped.

[pbrower2a]

(08-09-2017, 12:32 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-09-2017, 10:22 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Manafort was raided this morning by the FBI.

The pace is quickening.  This investigation may come to a head much sooner than I expected originally.  I'll be shocked if it leads to nothing.

Speculating on possible objects of investigation: bank records, travel itineraries, and any contractual materials. If any of these were present and they look at all incriminating he might be grilled for tax evasion, being an unregistered foreign agent, or money laundering.

Even importer-exporters who deal heavily with one overseas firm often register as foreign agents.

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-14-2017, 11:01 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: The time to choose is now. You can choose to be a Real Nationalist, a Real American, upholding everything our wonderful soldiers fought for in WW2 and The Cold War. Or, you can choose to go with the God forsaken, anti American, totalitarian scum. Simple choice. You are either with us, or you are with the Red-Brown Axis.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/201...roots.html

I have my biases.  Cultures adopt to technology available and current environment.  I've listed elsewhere my arrow of progress and why adapting a new culture when a new situation comes around is often necessary and a win.  At the same time I can see where a tension can come from.  Cultures have inertia.  They developed generally for valid reason.  They don't respond lightly to forces for change.  Also, existing established elites don't lightly acknowledge new elites or release the handles of power. 

But the above binary either or view seems shallow and partisan.  A lot of folks proclaim themselves American and apply hateful labels to those who disagree with them.  People on both sides wear red white and blue and wave the flag.

The Alt right?  You can call them all sorts of names, but not un-American.  It's very traditional for those who have been here longer to try to lock out newcomers, and do so with hate and prejudice.  It's also very American, as you say, to fight this prejudice.  Equality is one of our stronger founding virtues.  I can strongly sympathize with the more rational among the alt right that affirmative action can be taken so far, but when a subculture reserves certain roles to certain privileged groups, the time for affirmative action is not past.

The less rational of them?  Well, they can deal with the less rational of the left.  Go all out wacko if you have to.  I'll sit back and wait for things to resolve as they have tended to resolve in the past.  The self proclaimed privileged scum generally lose in the end.  Alas, the arrow of progress flies absurdly slowly for an arrow.

[David Horn]

(08-15-2017, 12:01 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The Alt right?  You can call them all sorts of names, but not un-American.  It's very traditional for those who have been here longer to try to lock out newcomers, and do so with hate and prejudice.  It's also very American, as you say, to fight this prejudice.  Equality is one of our stronger founding virtues.  I can strongly sympathize with the more rational among the alt right that affirmative action can be taken so far, but when a subculture reserves certain roles to certain privileged groups, the time for affirmative action is not past.

The less rational of them?  Well, they can deal with the less rational of the left.  Go all out wacko if you have to.  I'll sit back and wait for things to resolve as they have tended to resolve in the past.  The self proclaimed privileged scum generally lose in the end.  Alas, the arrow of progress flies absurdly slowly for an arrow.

If the theory is to hold, then a resolution must occur within a suitable timeframe.  Will it?  If we assume that the 4T started in 2008, then it followed a longer than normal 3T (unless you wish to move Reagan into the 2T).  In any case, the saeculum started at or very near the end of WW-II, so the mid-2020's would make it 80 years.  It seems that Trump will remain a distraction until 2020, so the resolution will have to be swift and decisive unless Trumpism is the resolution.  I'm doubting that strongly.

Since the fragmentation seems to be widening, and positions hardening, is that likely?  We have a economic and climate crisis to address in the interim, and the world isn't getting any less scary either.

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-15-2017, 10:14 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-15-2017, 12:01 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The Alt right?  You can call them all sorts of names, but not un-American.  It's very traditional for those who have been here longer to try to lock out newcomers, and do so with hate and prejudice.  It's also very American, as you say, to fight this prejudice.  Equality is one of our stronger founding virtues.  I can strongly sympathize with the more rational among the alt right that affirmative action can be taken so far, but when a subculture reserves certain roles to certain privileged groups, the time for affirmative action is not past.

The less rational of them?  Well, they can deal with the less rational of the left.  Go all out wacko if you have to.  I'll sit back and wait for things to resolve as they have tended to resolve in the past.  The self proclaimed privileged scum generally lose in the end.  Alas, the arrow of progress flies absurdly slowly for an arrow.

If the theory is to hold, then a resolution must occur within a suitable timeframe.  Will it?  If we assume that the 4T started in 2008, then it followed a longer than normal 3T (unless you wish to move Reagan into the 2T).  In any case, the saeculum started at or very near the end of WW-II, so the mid-2020's would make it 80 years.  It seems that Trump will remain a distraction until 2020, so the resolution will have to be swift and decisive unless Trumpism is the resolution.  I'm doubting that strongly.

Since the fragmentation seems to be widening, and positions hardening, is that likely?  We have a economic and climate crisis to address in the interim, and the world isn't getting any less scary either.

I’m not sure the theory holds, at least not well enough that you can count on precise timing.  Is there a new group of elites seeking power that must tear down the structure older elites used?  Is there a problem that a large number of people say must be solved?  I’m inclined to think the economic and climate issues will eventually go critical, but thus far quite a few seem able to ignore these things.  A crisis scale effort at solutions is on hold as the unraveling attitudes of fat, dumb and happy continue.

[pbrower2a]

(08-15-2017, 12:01 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-14-2017, 11:01 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: The time to choose is now. You can choose to be a Real Nationalist, a Real American, upholding everything our wonderful soldiers fought for in WW2 and The Cold War. Or, you can choose to go with the God forsaken, anti American, totalitarian scum. Simple choice. You are either with us, or you are with the Red-Brown Axis.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/201...roots.html

I have my biases.  Cultures adopt to technology available and current environment.  I've listed elsewhere my arrow of progress and why adapting a new culture when a new situation comes around is often necessary and a win.  At the same time I can see where a tension can come from.  Cultures have inertia.  They developed generally for valid reason.  They don't respond lightly to forces for change.  Also, existing established elites don't lightly acknowledge new elites or release the handles of power.

Well, the Romans did reject steam power which would have given their economic order some vitality that it lost in a few hundred years. Perhaps had the Persians gotten it...Speculative history is interesting, isn't it?

Quote:But the above binary either or view seems shallow and partisan.  A lot of folks proclaim themselves American and apply hateful labels to those who disagree with them.  People on both sides wear red white and blue and wave the flag.

But people who wave a Confederate flag as a political statement insult those who see the Confederacy as a defense of slavery. I can excuse people who honor the Confederate dead, especially if ancestors. But let us remember that the Confederates didn't round up Jews for mass murder. (Andersonville reflects in part that the Confederacy was in deep financial trouble and had higher problems than feeding Union prisoners late in the war).

Quote:The Alt right?  You can call them all sorts of names, but not un-American.  It's very traditional for those who have been here longer to try to lock out newcomers, and do so with hate and prejudice.  It's also very American, as you say, to fight this prejudice.  Equality is one of our stronger founding virtues.  I can strongly sympathize with the more rational among the alt right that affirmative action can be taken so far, but when a subculture reserves certain roles to certain privileged groups, the time for affirmative action is not past.

They are American to the extent that they were born and raised here. In that sense a tornado or a rattlesnake could be American. But this said, the typical illegal alien has values closer to the mainstream of American values.

Quote:The less rational of them?  Well, they can deal with the less rational of the left.  Go all out wacko if you have to.  I'll sit back and wait for things to resolve as they have tended to resolve in the past.  The self proclaimed privileged scum generally lose in the end.  Alas, the arrow of progress flies absurdly slowly for an arrow.

Let us all hope (and pray) that reason shall prevail. Reason may be liberal and it may be conservative. But it will certainly not be fascist.

[pbrower2a]

(08-10-2017, 12:35 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(08-09-2017, 12:32 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(08-09-2017, 10:22 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Manafort was raided this morning by the FBI.

The pace is quickening.  This investigation may come to a head much sooner than I expected originally.  I'll be shocked if it leads to nothing.

Speculating on possible objects of investigation: bank records, travel itineraries, and any contractual materials. If any of these were present and they look at all incriminating he might be grilled for tax evasion, being an unregistered foreign agent, or money laundering.

Even importer-exporters who deal heavily with one overseas firm often register as foreign agents.

I said this nearly three months ago, and events seem to be proving my speculations correct.

[pbrower2a]

Quote:One could almost pity the executives from Facebook, Google and Twitter as they were grilled on Capitol Hill earlier this week by senators upset about Russian meddling in last year’s presidential election via the posting of cleverly worded propaganda ads and messages on social media sites.

After all, how do you detect – let alone stop – a small group of determined foreign nationals manipulating and taking advantage of what’s supposed to be open, free-flowing Internet platforms idealistically designed to allow billions of people across the globe to voice their thoughts on everything from world politics to the type off pigeons in Trafalgar Square?

Of course, the Facebook, Google and Twitter executives at the Senate hearing earlier this week bowed their heads, expressed remorse and vowed to do better in combating the threat of foreign interference in our democratic elections.

But the question is: Can they do better? Is it possible? Remember: Facebook alone acknowledges that it received only about $100,000 in paid ads by those it later learned were tied to various Russian groups, but those ads were still seen by about 10 million people, according to media reports.

When you include free Facebook messages posted on bogus accounts taken out by Russians – and the corresponding “like” endorsements by almost countless readers – the number of people exposed to manipulative Russian antics ballooned to about 126 million, Facebook admits, according to media reports.

Now think about it: A swing of only 100,000 votes or less in last year’s presidential election could have put Hillary Clinton in the White House, not Donald Trump. So you get the picture. It doesn’t take much on social media to effectively “interfere” in a presidential election.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tak...ontributor#

We are under the rule, for all practical purposes, of people on the same level  as those who ruled Russia a bit more than a century ago: people who believed that no human suffering was excessive so long as they got to live pampered lives. Imperial Russia was in no way a democracy. If the Tsar had an absolute veto on any legislation (which makes legislative activity meaningless except as obedience to the Leader), our system is a bit more sophisticated. Lobbyists loyal only to their super-rich paymasters are the real power in the legislative process.  We are still free to gripe about it, but for now we can do little.

People like Donald Trump go to Russia and are awed -- certainly not by the Soviet era, but instead the Tsarist era. That is what they want, and all that President Trump lacks that a Tsar lacked is a crown, throne, and scepter. Putin may be ex-KGB, but he can more effectively dazzle foreigners with the relics of the tsarist order than with crude Bolshevik propaganda.  But even Gorbachev knew how to dazzle Donald Trump. Putin has been good at reinforcing the dazzle.


....It may be ironic, but think of all the efforts that the Soviet Union made to get military and technological secrets through espionage, and to corrupt American life through the pathetic appeals of the Communist Party. That did not work. The Soviet Union never got the means with which to overpower the western democracies or to develop a Communist cause in America capable of overthrowing so much as a school board.

But the Russian government has found other weaknesses in America in its educational system and its culture.  People simply do not fact-check. We had to know that something was wrong in America when millions believed that Barack Obama was born in Kenya, or even that the Moon Landing was faked -- or that vaccinations cause autism. It could supply the definitive fake news -- black propaganda -- through Facebook and other social media.

Facebook is a nice way to keep in touch with friends. It's a not a news source; it is a rumor mill. "I saw this on Facebook" is less credible than "I read this on the New York Times website", "I saw this on CBS News", or even "I read this on Breitbart or saw it on FoX News".  (OK, FoX Newspeak Channel and Breitbart are suspect... but at least one knows the source).

When I got a suspect piece of news on Facebook I returned it  with a polite notification that it is fake.

The Russians have plenty of people learning about American mass culture and how to use it against Americans. It may be ironic that they love American ways. They speak and write English better than many Americans do. They can dress like Americans and even know such things as sports affiliations. They watch American movies and TV, and ... don't for a moment believe that they are listening to Mussorgsky, Tchaikovsky, or Shostakovich. And they even look much like typical white Americans. Or they find some exchange students from Africa or Latin America to serve other communities.

...And there are people in the Russian secret services who use such people to supply black propaganda. Thus "Jenna Abrams".

OK. I haven't explained "black propaganda".

propaganda is categorized based on the methods it uses to shape its argument.  These categories are traditionally labelled as white, black, and gray propaganda.  While there are discrepancies in the way these terms are defined, Garth S. Jowett and Victoria O’Donnell (Propaganda and Persuasion) use the following labels:

“White propaganda comes from a source that is identified correctly, and the information in the message tends to be accurate…Although what listeners hear is reasonably close to the truth, it is presented in a manner that attempts to convince the audience that the sender is the ‘good guy’ with the best ideas and political ideology.”

“Black propaganda is credited to a false source, and it spreads lies, fabrications, and deceptions.”

“Gray propaganda is somewhere between white and black propaganda.  The source may or may not be correctly identified, and the accuracy of information is uncertain.”


https://thepropagandaproject.wordpress.com/types-of-propaganda/

[pbrower2a]

Paul Man-o'-Fraud was caught violating terms of bail by having contacts with people connected to the Russian intelligence services.

Lock him up!

At that he is no better than the drug suspect who, ordered to avoid alcohol while on bail, is seen buying booze at the local Wal*Mart.

Lock him up!

Bail is a privilege.