If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory

[Bob Butler 54]

(04-01-2017, 09:07 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Don't fool yourself. White racism is real. I hear it often enough because many white people feel free to express it so long as there are no blacks around. It's ugly. It's much the same stuff as people said a century ago everywhere in America or fifty years ago in the South.

So why does it return from the dead? Because people stupefy themselves on brain-rot and soul-rot that emanates from the television, whether broadcast or from video devices. Human nature does not change. The Greek philosophers and the Hebrew prophets remain relevant because we have the same potential for crass stupidity and selfishness as ever. We transcend our worst lest we fall for the worst.

For the most part, I'm with you.

Humans don't change.  Human cultures do.  Some changes are linear and have long term trends.  There are fewer slaves and nobles now than there were in the Agricultural Age.  Some changes, perhaps, are cyclical

Obama made some progress.  We had eight years of a black first family that quietly lived above the vile stereotypes.  There has been some of that long term progress, as the flags cartoon indicates.  But I think we're seeing some cyclical kickback.  The deplorables have been forced to hide much of their hate since the awakening, and were given an excuse to flaunt it again.

And perhaps the new media has been part of it as well.  If you have a belief or world view, one is likely to be able to go out on the web and find sites that will reinforce and enable it.  No matter what extreme partisan world view one wants to indulge in, there is a ready built alternate reality bubble ready to radicalize, or to turn one into a reactionary.  (Reactionaryize?)

The former trend seems like it may be cyclical.  The deplorables are having their time.  It may be that said time is limited, that the long term trend towards equality and decency might resume.

But the alternate reality bubbles, the ability of extreme partisans to be made more extreme, that may be new with the web, or made worse by the web.  Violent extreme partisans aren't new, but there are more tools available now to spread nonsense.

I don't know...

[Mikebert]

WTF?  Nobody is talking about Michael Flynn on the Russia thread?  I see a replay of the drama of two years ago with Flynn playing the role of David Wildstein. (Actually he is trying to emulate Oliver North, but Wildstein is more recent.)

Anyways it suggests that Flynn's lawyer things Flynn maybe be in some serious hot water.  This just goes to show how clueless Trump is.  Wildstein and North were bit players.  Flynn was Trump's primary advisor on foreign policy, a big fish.  It seems Flynn has been involved in all sorts of hinky dealings with the Russians and if he had any brains he wouldn't have gotten involved with a presidential candidate.  What, he did not think he would get scrutiny?  Now he might go to jail.  Who wants that?  A guy that colossally unwise had no business being a top figure on team Trump.  What clown brought him on board? 

But then Trump got rid of Christie.  Folks are going to jail on bridgegate, but Christie is walking away clean.  He's not stupid like Flynn, yet Trump boots Christie and keeps Flynn. What's with that?

[Eric the Green]

(04-01-2017, 03:07 PM)Mikebert Wrote: WTF?  Nobody is talking about Michael Flynn on the Russia thread?  I see a replay of the drama of two years ago with Flynn playing the role of David Wildstein. (Actually he is trying to emulate Oliver North, but Wildstein is more recent.)

Anyways it suggests that Flynn's lawyer things Flynn maybe be in some serious hot water.  This just goes to show how clueless Trump is.  Wildstein and North were bit players.  Flynn was Trump's primary advisor on foreign policy, a big fish.  It seems Flynn has been involved in all sorts of hinky dealings with the Russians and if he had any brains he wouldn't have gotten involved with a presidential candidate.  What, he did not think he would get scrutiny?  Now he might go to jail.  Who wants that?  A guy that colossally unwise had no business being a top figure on team Trump.  What clown brought him on board? 

But then Trump got rid of Christie.  Folks are going to jail on bridgegate, but Christie is walking away clean.  He's not stupid like Flynn, yet Trump boots Christie and keeps Flynn. What's with that?

Don't know who David Wildstein is. 

Well, I can look him up. He's a Christie guy. What Flynn is to Trump, Wildstein is to Christie. Or something like that.

David Wildstein (born September 1961)[note 1] is an American businessman, Republican Party politician, political blogger, and the founder of the New Jersey political news website Politicker Network. A former mayor of Livingston, New Jersey, he served as a senior official in the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey during the administration of New Jersey Governor Chris Christie until 2013, when Wildstein resigned in the midst of a scandal involving traffic lanes closures. On May 1, 2015 he pleaded guilty to two federal counts of conspiracy as part of a plea agreement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wildstein

A colossally unwise guy had no business on team Trump? Surely you jest. I would think that would be a requirement to be on team Trump.

Humans change, albeit slowly. The only things that don't change are abstract and divine things.

[Kinser79]

(04-01-2017, 03:07 PM)Mikebert Wrote: WTF?  Nobody is talking about Michael Flynn on the Russia thread?  I see a replay of the drama of two years ago with Flynn playing the role of David Wildstein. (Actually he is trying to emulate Oliver North, but Wildstein is more recent.)

Anyways it suggests that Flynn's lawyer things Flynn maybe be in some serious hot water.  This just goes to show how clueless Trump is.  Wildstein and North were bit players.  Flynn was Trump's primary advisor on foreign policy, a big fish.  It seems Flynn has been involved in all sorts of hinky dealings with the Russians and if he had any brains he wouldn't have gotten involved with a presidential candidate.  What, he did not think he would get scrutiny?  Now he might go to jail.  Who wants that?  A guy that colossally unwise had no business being a top figure on team Trump.  What clown brought him on board? 

But then Trump got rid of Christie.  Folks are going to jail on bridgegate, but Christie is walking away clean.  He's not stupid like Flynn, yet Trump boots Christie and keeps Flynn. What's with that?

Mike...

Probably because no one actually cares.  Besides Flynn was a bit player in the Trump campaign if that.  Don't let the fake news media tell you otherwise.  Seriously dude turn off the MSDNC and turn on to some Breitbart.

[pbrower2a]

(04-01-2017, 03:07 PM)Mikebert Wrote: WTF?  Nobody is talking about Michael Flynn on the Russia thread?  I see a replay of the drama of two years ago with Flynn playing the role of David Wildstein. (Actually he is trying to emulate Oliver North, but Wildstein is more recent.)

I try to avoid discussing an issue likely to be resolved in a court of law, civil or especially criminal, the latter including topics that might result in a plea bargain. Court cases are capricious even if they might be resolved with rational processes. This, I believe, is wise practice for anyone. I have guessed wrong on many high-profile criminal cases, and the courts have gotten wrongful convictions and let offenders loose.

Good prosecutors and investigators usually let the drama unfold in a courtroom.

Quote:Anyways it suggests that Flynn's lawyer thinks Flynn maybe be in some serious hot water.  This just goes to show how clueless Trump is.  Wildstein and North were bit players.  Flynn was Trump's primary advisor on foreign policy, a big fish.  It seems Flynn has been involved in all sorts of hinky dealings with the Russians and if he had any brains he wouldn't have gotten involved with a presidential candidate.  What, he did not think he would get scrutiny?  Now he might go to jail.  Who wants that?  A guy that colossally unwise had no business being a top figure on team Trump.  What clown brought him on board?

Who but President Trump himself? Here's someone utterly in contempt of any truth that violates his will.  Here is someone who may still believe that Barack Obama was not born in the USA. Here's someone quite possibly deeply involved with organized crime, especially the wing that speaks a Slavic language. A leader who needs yes-men isn't much of a leader.

Quote:But then Trump got rid of Christie.  Folks are going to jail on bridgegate, but Christie is walking away clean.  He's not stupid like Flynn, yet Trump boots Christie and keeps Flynn. What's with that?

Maybe an exaggerated faith in the military? We may have a right-wing mirror-image of Salvador Allende as President.

[Ragnarök_62]

(03-31-2017, 12:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-30-2017, 11:58 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(03-30-2017, 08:37 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I have a different reaction. Trump has supported the Europe breakup. And many of us don't like that. And many of us DO advocate, at least in our passionate moments, that the United States break up. Actually, it would be the more-constructive of the two possibilities. It's the USA that is stagnant and stalemated by the reactionary right wing, now ironically called "red." Red states and blue states are not something Europe is saddled with. They don't have red countries and blue countries. They are all progressive compared to us. We are saddled with a group of states and rural counties who believe that God created the world in 6 days, that the most important issue we face is abortion, that climate science is a hoax, that our "liberal and socialist" government destroys character and is trying to create a global dictatorship. We are saddled with a group of states that send people to congress whose only goal is to block anything and everything, even their own president's health plan, and who can't be worked or dealt with.

No, I think that guy should not eat shit and die; we need to pay attention to the fact that what's happening between Brexit and Trump is that the two nations that led the way toward a socially-responsible, democratic, diplomatic-minded alliance won't be there to defend it from the Putins, Dugins and Bannon/Mercers of the world, and is no longer upholding it. One pundit on Charlie Rose made that point last night, and it's well taken. The current right-wing "populist" trend is destructive and dangerous. It takes us away from progress; it's like what happened in the thirties. And if Le Pen wins, all bets are off for a sustainable and prosperous future. The only way this trend makes sense, is if the resistance to it triumphs in the end.

1. the Eurozone has has a different problem. It's composed of rich countries in the north and poorer countries near the Mediterranean Sea.  Greek folks are being robbed blind by the EU. Greece has for some reason, but most likely its elites in concert with the EU are the parties involved.  IOW, the EU is the debt collector for assorted Big Banking interests within the EU. That is despicable.  Any entity that is in league with banks is to be reviled. So you are correct, there is no red/blue divide, but rather a set of countries that are creditors [liked Germany] and debtor countries like Greece. Feel free to do an internet search on how Greece is getting robbed blind. So, do you support austerity? I don't Greece, for example should never have joined the EU.

OK, your bipolar flare-up is over; a thoughtful post. Congratulations!

Greece is not clamouring to leave the EU. Merkel and Co. had to craft a balancing act between making Greece get itself solvent and helping it out. I think austerity was too strict, and that the EU needed more stimulus. As inadequate as Obama's stimulus was for the USA, at least we got one before the Repugs stopped it. AND, we have the FED, which further stimulated us out of depression, and THEY did not yet. They do have banks, of course, which helped cause the mess, and no I don't trust them. The EU should make them pay more taxes, and since these nations are progressive, maybe they are, or will; far more than the USA does with its Repugs who want to repeal Dodd-Frank. Greece also seems to have its own problem with its own rich hogs, and despite electing a socialistic government, seems not to be dealing with this.

Quote:2. US breakup:  Easy, Druncker is admitting EU interference in the domestic affair of the US.  Like I always say, nobody and nobody should be allowed to interfere in the internal affairs of any nation state. It is for that reason that I despise CIA meddling in ANY OTHER nations' internal affairs.

I don't consider expressing a point of view to be meddling. People are and should be free to express their minds in the supposedly free society. If we don't like it, toughee. Putin's is not a free society, so he was free himself to retaliate against Hillary for speaking her mind about his oligarchic disaster. And I am too. Putin's Russia is an oligarchic disaster, and the Russians should overthrow it or break it up.

Quote:3. Btexit: The British people voted for Brexit. That's democracy. The will of the people should never, ever be dismissed. Great Britain is exercising democracy in action by the elected officials in leaving.

And I hope Blair can get another referendum going, so the British can correct their mistake.

Quote:4. Dugan/Putin/Bannon:  OK, have you ever considered that this meme comes from the MIC?. The MIC is always looking for excuses to feather its nest. Here's the deal, Most European nations have a higher GDP/person than the US.;  I ask why should the we pay for Europe's defense? I think that's insane. The US needs to focus like a laser beam on fixing stuff right here.

Except that Bannon IS right here, and HE's what needs to be fixed. A pox on both the Duginists and the MIC. Neither are memes, and neither is Mercer; they are threats to our democracy and our sustainability as a nation and a planet.

Quote:5. Here's the other thing. I fear the MIC and their I-spy crap far more than Russia. I also fear ISP's selling my browsing history than Russia.  Folks who sell my internet data are just... plain... evil. Sorry. And, let me say, to  you the defense extremism for  defense of internet privacy is no vice and moderation in the pursuit of internet privacy is no virtue.

OK Barry, but "I would remind you" that Goldwater didn't get too far with that impressive line that expressed his intense Mars in Scorpio rising. I say, America first. Fear the Russians more than our own spies. Or better yet, fear them both in equal measure, enough to crack down on their abuses.

And with the abundance of evil in our new administration and congress, internet privacy is not at the top of my list of worries. But I hope this invasion is stopped; no telling where it might lead. If it arouses more people against the orange menace, so much the better. The Orange Menace and Co. also want to reduce our internet speed by letting big business have special internet privileges (abolishing internet neutrality). That will adversely affect me more, I believe. Internet companies already know what sites I visit, and recommend sites to me. If it goes no further than that, it's actually a convenience. But, of course, where greed is concerned, our American business interests are always likely to go further in the wrong directions unless stopped.

According to one report, though, GE is asking its fellow corporations to resist Drump's war on the environment, saying it's bad for business and that we need the alternatives to the fossil fuels. So, maybe as Mr. Summers recommends, some of Drump/Bannon's beloved "free enterprise" companies will exert some positive influence in favor of a modicum of common sense. It would be nice. Even corporations have some actual people in them, or so it seems.

1. Bipolar flare up:  Yeah, stuff like that happens, but then again...
http://astrophilosophy.org/post/50103918...s-in-aries 

2. Greece.  Of course Greece isn't clamoring for an exit strategy.  Greek elites love the status quo , regardless of the ruin than that rains down on the masses. Greece is no different than the US , for example. Like, I think you've mentioned, we've had roughly 40 years of the axis of evil, Neoliberalism/NeoCONS. Their agenda is to ensure their own nest feathering , and fuck the classes of [destitute/working /middle .] I'm well aware that our own elites don't give a rat's ass about my class. Greece should leave the EU, it only has its chains to lose. The best solution is for Greece to exit the EU, declare bankruptcy wrt Eurozone banks, and be done with it. If Eurozone banks make risky loans at high interest rates, they accepted the risk, let 'em crash and burn.

3. Putin: The Russian people like him. If a nation's people like a certain leader, I'm fine with that. I'm not one to meddle in Russia's internal affairs.

4. Are you sure the US has complete freedom?  What about asset forfeiture where the government can just rob you? That's why I think the DEA should be just outright abolished. It's an abomination on freedom. I'd rather have meth heads around than DEA property robbers. Besides when it comes to opioids, it's Big Pharma that's the largest pusher. Does the DEA do anything wrt Big Pharma? No.


5.  Europe, pay your own way.  Y'alls GDP is for the mostly higher than the US. Europe basically needs to grow up and take care of itself.  Uncle Sugar has a shortage of sugar.

6. You are correct wrt internet privacy/net neutrality.  Commercial interests have way too much lee way when it comes to data collection and and service provision. Trump's administration is really out there on that and on never accepting the concept of externalities. The free market basically sucks when  it comes to pricing in externalities like pollution, displaced costs, and tragedy of the commons.  There are ways to completely fuck up the data you send to ISP's.  My firewall logs have all sorts of entries of Google's servers attempting to open some random port for some reason. I built a firewall with my Linux box that blocks everything and I mean everything I don't explicitly allow
That is layered with a /etc/hosts file that sends a null response to a whole host of others. IOW, I just opt out of data sharing.  Blocking unnecessary connections also boosts my effective internet speed. Ads don't download, scripts don't download and run, or run looking at nothing on loopback [127.0.0.1] which means if a script calls another script , it gets no response.  Internet companies do not know what sites I go to. Check out http://www.duckduckgo.com.
They don't save browsing history. Then on top of that is to adjust browser settings to chuck history. Like, I said, I used to work in Marathon's extranet, which means I still after a bunch of years being deskilled, I can still go to some security web site and lock down my internet experience. You see, Eric, it takes a hacker mentality to fight off external hackers. It takes a certain mindset. I got on the extranet team after I got caught hacking the internal intranet, there. My boss , saw that as a talent, rather than a detriment, charged it off as curiosity [which was true], and stuck me on the extranet team. It worked until the CIO decided to become a lemming and outsourced IT , just like a bunch of other companies. The H1-B's came, service levels crashed, and Marathon admitted its screwup, and insourced again. That's why I don't care for "suits" and their group think.  So... yeah, I think I could get reskilled, but Corporate America never, ever thinks long term, man.

7. GE.  Yes, another instance of market failure. We need an oil import tariff to pay for defense of both the Mideast Oilfields and shipping lanes. Only then, would imported oil be priced such that the real costs are known.

8. Blair:  Sorry, no endless redos until the desired results reflect the <wishes of some political group here>
One referendum is what is required.  Voter decisions must be honored regardless of one's private views.
Sorry, I won, you lost, deal with it.

[Eric the Green]

Stupid Watergate: do these idiots even know how to breathe?

[Eric the Green]

(04-02-2017, 03:28 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(03-31-2017, 12:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-30-2017, 11:58 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(03-30-2017, 08:37 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I have a different reaction. Trump has supported the Europe breakup. And many of us don't like that. And many of us DO advocate, at least in our passionate moments, that the United States break up. Actually, it would be the more-constructive of the two possibilities. It's the USA that is stagnant and stalemated by the reactionary right wing, now ironically called "red." Red states and blue states are not something Europe is saddled with. They don't have red countries and blue countries. They are all progressive compared to us. We are saddled with a group of states and rural counties who believe that God created the world in 6 days, that the most important issue we face is abortion, that climate science is a hoax, that our "liberal and socialist" government destroys character and is trying to create a global dictatorship. We are saddled with a group of states that send people to congress whose only goal is to block anything and everything, even their own president's health plan, and who can't be worked or dealt with.

No, I think that guy should not eat shit and die; we need to pay attention to the fact that what's happening between Brexit and Trump is that the two nations that led the way toward a socially-responsible, democratic, diplomatic-minded alliance won't be there to defend it from the Putins, Dugins and Bannon/Mercers of the world, and is no longer upholding it. One pundit on Charlie Rose made that point last night, and it's well taken. The current right-wing "populist" trend is destructive and dangerous. It takes us away from progress; it's like what happened in the thirties. And if Le Pen wins, all bets are off for a sustainable and prosperous future. The only way this trend makes sense, is if the resistance to it triumphs in the end.

1. the Eurozone has has a different problem. It's composed of rich countries in the north and poorer countries near the Mediterranean Sea.  Greek folks are being robbed blind by the EU. Greece has for some reason, but most likely its elites in concert with the EU are the parties involved.  IOW, the EU is the debt collector for assorted Big Banking interests within the EU. That is despicable.  Any entity that is in league with banks is to be reviled. So you are correct, there is no red/blue divide, but rather a set of countries that are creditors [liked Germany] and debtor countries like Greece. Feel free to do an internet search on how Greece is getting robbed blind. So, do you support austerity? I don't Greece, for example should never have joined the EU.

OK, your bipolar flare-up is over; a thoughtful post. Congratulations!

Greece is not clamouring to leave the EU. Merkel and Co. had to craft a balancing act between making Greece get itself solvent and helping it out. I think austerity was too strict, and that the EU needed more stimulus. As inadequate as Obama's stimulus was for the USA, at least we got one before the Repugs stopped it. AND, we have the FED, which further stimulated us out of depression, and THEY did not yet. They do have banks, of course, which helped cause the mess, and no I don't trust them. The EU should make them pay more taxes, and since these nations are progressive, maybe they are, or will; far more than the USA does with its Repugs who want to repeal Dodd-Frank. Greece also seems to have its own problem with its own rich hogs, and despite electing a socialistic government, seems not to be dealing with this.

Quote:2. US breakup:  Easy, Druncker is admitting EU interference in the domestic affair of the US.  Like I always say, nobody and nobody should be allowed to interfere in the internal affairs of any nation state. It is for that reason that I despise CIA meddling in ANY OTHER nations' internal affairs.

I don't consider expressing a point of view to be meddling. People are and should be free to express their minds in the supposedly free society. If we don't like it, toughee. Putin's is not a free society, so he was free himself to retaliate against Hillary for speaking her mind about his oligarchic disaster. And I am too. Putin's Russia is an oligarchic disaster, and the Russians should overthrow it or break it up.

Quote:3. Btexit: The British people voted for Brexit. That's democracy. The will of the people should never, ever be dismissed. Great Britain is exercising democracy in action by the elected officials in leaving.

And I hope Blair can get another referendum going, so the British can correct their mistake.

Quote:4. Dugan/Putin/Bannon:  OK, have you ever considered that this meme comes from the MIC?. The MIC is always looking for excuses to feather its nest. Here's the deal, Most European nations have a higher GDP/person than the US.;  I ask why should the we pay for Europe's defense? I think that's insane. The US needs to focus like a laser beam on fixing stuff right here.

Except that Bannon IS right here, and HE's what needs to be fixed. A pox on both the Duginists and the MIC. Neither are memes, and neither is Mercer; they are threats to our democracy and our sustainability as a nation and a planet.

Quote:5. Here's the other thing. I fear the MIC and their I-spy crap far more than Russia. I also fear ISP's selling my browsing history than Russia.  Folks who sell my internet data are just... plain... evil. Sorry. And, let me say, to  you the defense extremism for  defense of internet privacy is no vice and moderation in the pursuit of internet privacy is no virtue.

OK Barry, but "I would remind you" that Goldwater didn't get too far with that impressive line that expressed his intense Mars in Scorpio rising. I say, America first. Fear the Russians more than our own spies. Or better yet, fear them both in equal measure, enough to crack down on their abuses.

And with the abundance of evil in our new administration and congress, internet privacy is not at the top of my list of worries. But I hope this invasion is stopped; no telling where it might lead. If it arouses more people against the orange menace, so much the better. The Orange Menace and Co. also want to reduce our internet speed by letting big business have special internet privileges (abolishing internet neutrality). That will adversely affect me more, I believe. Internet companies already know what sites I visit, and recommend sites to me. If it goes no further than that, it's actually a convenience. But, of course, where greed is concerned, our American business interests are always likely to go further in the wrong directions unless stopped.

According to one report, though, GE is asking its fellow corporations to resist Drump's war on the environment, saying it's bad for business and that we need the alternatives to the fossil fuels. So, maybe as Mr. Summers recommends, some of Drump/Bannon's beloved "free enterprise" companies will exert some positive influence in favor of a modicum of common sense. It would be nice. Even corporations have some actual people in them, or so it seems.

1. Bipolar flare up:  Yeah, stuff like that happens, but then again...
http://astrophilosophy.org/post/50103918...s-in-aries 

Ah, yeah that can be tough to handle. Just ask Newt Gingrich and Slobodon Milosevic. But also, Bernie Sanders.

Quote:2. Greece.  Of course Greece isn't clamoring for an exit strategy.  Greek elites love the status quo , regardless of the ruin than that rains down on the masses. Greece is no different than the US , for example. Like, I think you've mentioned, we've had roughly 40 years of the axis of evil, Neoliberalism/NeoCONS. Their agenda is to ensure their own nest feathering , and fuck the classes of [destitute/working /middle .] I'm well aware that our own elites don't give a rat's ass about my class. Greece should leave the EU, it only has its chains to lose. The best solution is for Greece to exit the EU, declare bankruptcy wrt Eurozone banks, and be done with it. If Eurozone banks make risky loans at high interest rates, they accepted the risk, let 'em crash and burn.

Possibly, that might be best for Greece, I don't know; but it hasn't happened, so at least I can hope that Greece is recovering with the EU's help, and the banks will be held accountable for their sins and allowed to crash and burn as necessary. The EU leaders are not as stupid as USA leaders. At least I hope so. I like the EU; a matter of taste I guess.

Quote:3. Putin: The Russian people like him. If a nation's people like a certain leader, I'm fine with that. I'm not one to meddle in Russia's internal affairs.

So, you're not meddling; I'm not meddling; we're just stating our opinions. Stating our opinions is not meddling.

Quote:4. Are you sure the US has complete freedom?  What about asset forfeiture where the government can just rob you? That's why I think the DEA should be just outright abolished. It's an abomination on freedom. I'd rather have meth heads around than DEA property robbers. Besides when it comes to opioids, it's Big Pharma that's the largest pusher. Does the DEA do anything wrt Big Pharma? No.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything I said, but yes I agree.

Quote:5.  Europe, pay your own way.  Y'alls GDP is for the mostly higher than the US. Europe basically needs to grow up and take care of itself.  Uncle Sugar has a shortage of sugar.

6. You are correct wrt internet privacy/net neutrality.  Commercial interests have way too much lee way when it comes to data collection and and service provision. Trump's administration is really out there on that and on never accepting the concept of externalities. The free market basically sucks when  it comes to pricing in externalities like pollution, displaced costs, and tragedy of the commons.  There are ways to completely fuck up the data you send to ISP's.  My firewall logs have all sorts of entries of Google's servers attempting to open some random port for some reason. I built a firewall with my Linux box that blocks everything and I mean everything I don't explicitly allow
That is layered with a /etc/hosts file that sends a null response to a whole host of others. IOW, I just opt out of data sharing.  Blocking unnecessary connections also boosts my effective internet speed. Ads don't download, scripts don't download and run, or run looking at nothing on loopback [127.0.0.1] which means if a script calls another script , it gets no response.  Internet companies do not know what sites I go to. Check out http://www.duckduckgo.com.
They don't save browsing history. Then on top of that is to adjust browser settings to chuck history. Like, I said, I used to work in Marathon's extranet, which means I still after a bunch of years being deskilled, I can still go to some security web site and lock down my internet experience. You see, Eric, it takes a hacker mentality to fight off external hackers. It takes a certain mindset. I got on the extranet team after I got caught hacking the internal intranet, there. My boss , saw that as a talent, rather than a detriment, charged it off as curiosity [which was true], and stuck me on the extranet team. It worked until the CIO decided to become a lemming and outsourced IT , just like a bunch of other companies. The H1-B's came, service levels crashed, and Marathon admitted its screwup, and insourced again. That's why I don't care for "suits" and their group think.  So... yeah, I think I could get reskilled, but Corporate America never, ever thinks long term, man.

7. GE.  Yes, another instance of market failure. We need an oil import tariff to pay for defense of both the Mideast Oilfields and shipping lanes. Only then, would imported oil be priced such that the real costs are known.

Absolutely.

Quote:8. Blair:  Sorry, no endless redos until the desired results reflect the <wishes of some political group here>
One referendum is what is required.  Voter decisions must be honored regardless of one's private views.
Sorry, I won, you lost, deal with it.

Voters can change their minds. I say, endless revotes until I get my way! That's the American way!

[Snowflake]

Reports are that it was Susan Rice.  That would sure make sense.
(I guess the next question is if this is just the tip of an iceberg.  )

[Kinser79]

(04-01-2017, 06:07 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I seldom watch TV news and never buy newspapers.  I get news from the web.  As many of the web sites I visit also do broadcast or hardcopy, I don't think this a big deal.  The significant difference on the web is in picking up links to the fringe extreme sources.  Forums like this one do make available alternate perspectives.

But, you have to be a bit careful.  If you want to review Black Lives Matters's agenda and policies, you visit their web site rather than trust opinions of extreme partisans.  The web is full of a lot of garbage.

Or Bob, you do what I did to discover what BLM is all about and show up at a meeting or three.  It didn't take me long to realize that the organization--and it is an organization unlike say occupy--has far more in common with the Black Panthers than it does with MLK.  Their over all goals I agree with--the problem they have is their methods are destructive.

[Bob Butler 54]

(04-04-2017, 08:25 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(04-01-2017, 06:07 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I seldom watch TV news and never buy newspapers.  I get news from the web.  As many of the web sites I visit also do broadcast or hardcopy, I don't think this a big deal.  The significant difference on the web is in picking up links to the fringe extreme sources.  Forums like this one do make available alternate perspectives.

But, you have to be a bit careful.  If you want to review Black Lives Matters's agenda and policies, you visit their web site rather than trust opinions of extreme partisans.  The web is full of a lot of garbage.

Or Bob, you do what I did to discover what BLM is all about and show up at a meeting or three.  It didn't take me long to realize that the organization--and it is an organization unlike say occupy--has far more in common with the Black Panthers than it does with MLK.  Their over all goals I agree with--the problem they have is their methods are destructive.

Have you some alternate sources, verifications for your opinions? In my experience, you are an extreme partisan. When you do your, “I’m right the world is wrong” thing, I am inclined to put my faith in the world.

[Eric the Green]

"I don’t know – it’s hard for me to see any U.S. ties to Russia…except for the Flynn thing and the Manafort thing
and the Tillerson thing
and the Sessions thing
and the Kushner thing
and the Carter Page thing
and the Roger Stone thing
and the Felix Sater thing
and the Boris Ephsteyn thing
and the Rosneft thing
and the Gazprom thing
and the Sergey Gorkov banker thing
and the Azerbajain thing
and the “I love Putin” thing
and the Donald Trump, Jr. thing
and the Sergey Kislyak thing
and the Russian Affiliated Interests thing
and the Russian Business Interests thing
and the Emoluments Clause thing
and the Alex Schnaider thing
and the hack of the DNC thing
and the Guccifer 2.0 thing
and the Mike Pence “I don’t know anything” thing
and the Russians mysteriously dying thing
and Trump’s public request to Russia to hack Hillary’s email thing
and the Trump house sale for $100 million at the bottom of the housing bust to the Russian fertilizer king thing
and the Russian fertilizer king’s plane showing up in Concord, NC during Trump rally campaign thing
and the Nunes sudden flight to the White House in the night thing
and the Nunes personal investments in the Russian winery thing
and the Cyprus bank thing
and Trump not releasing his tax returns thing
and the Republican Party’s rejection of an amendment to require Trump to show his taxes thing
and the election hacking thing
and the GOP platform change to the Ukraine thing
and the Steele Dossier thing
and the Leninist Bannon thing
and the Sally Yates can’t testify thing
and the intelligence community’s investigative reports thing
and Trump’s reassurance that the Russian connection is all “fake news” thing
and Spicer’s Russian Dressing “nothing’s wrong” thing
so there’s probably nothing there
since the swamp has been drained, these people would never lie
probably why Nunes cancels the investigation meetings
all of this must be normal
just a bunch of separate dots with no connection."
---Lane Crothers

[Kinser79]

(04-04-2017, 12:00 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(04-04-2017, 08:25 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(04-01-2017, 06:07 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I seldom watch TV news and never buy newspapers.  I get news from the web.  As many of the web sites I visit also do broadcast or hardcopy, I don't think this a big deal.  The significant difference on the web is in picking up links to the fringe extreme sources.  Forums like this one do make available alternate perspectives.

But, you have to be a bit careful.  If you want to review Black Lives Matters's agenda and policies, you visit their web site rather than trust opinions of extreme partisans.  The web is full of a lot of garbage.

Or Bob, you do what I did to discover what BLM is all about and show up at a meeting or three.  It didn't take me long to realize that the organization--and it is an organization unlike say occupy--has far more in common with the Black Panthers than it does with MLK.  Their over all goals I agree with--the problem they have is their methods are destructive.

Have you some alternate sources, verifications for your opinions?  In my experience, you are an extreme partisan.  When you do your, “I’m right the world is wrong” thing, I am inclined to put my faith in the world.

Bob, you can put your faith where you like.  Let me just suffice it to say I've been around BLM long enough to know what they are and what they are about.  And of course I should point out the wonderful work of Milo.

[Eric the Green]

(04-06-2017, 10:32 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Nunes has "temporarily" recused himself.

Special investigator here we come?

Good news to go with the Bannon removal from the NSC. But special investigator or commission? It seems, apparently, that this must be approved by the GOP and Trump himself. Not likely, in that case.

[pbrower2a]

If American politics had the claim to integrity that NCAA athletics or the Olympics had, then those who win with the aid of cheating would have their wins forfeited. In the Olympics, medalists discovered after the fact to have used performance-enhancing substances or to have interfered with the performance of competitors lose their medals and any recognition of their tainted achievements -- and may face consequences as being banned for life from Olympic and other competitions. The sports media comply, and the players and coaches involved in such nefarious deeds are ruined. Integrity of the game matters more. The athlete cannot claim that he did not know what was in the injection that he received.

The NCAA has far more experience with point-shaving scandals in basketball than it wishes... but corruption of the game for the gain of gamblers is assumed intolerable in college basketball and leads to the banning of players.  A climate of corruption occurred at the University of Michigan, whose men's basketball team over several years had players ineligible to play collegiate ball because they had signed professional contracts with agents. Michigan fans may remember some remarkable seasons (1993 and 1996 through 1999) that culminated in tournament play. Because of the play of ineligible players, all but 1 of 113 wins in the regular seasons and the tournament wins (including those leading to the temporary win of the NCAA championship of 1997. The University of Michigan anticipated sanctions, perhaps saving themselves worse. See below in the citation of the Wikipedia article. Michigan fans of some seemingly-spectacular seasons remember what are now phantom wins.

Of course American politics can degenerate enough that they are all about power and economic gain for the Right People, everybody else getting to get vicarious delight in the indulgent opulence of elites who can treat non-elites as livestock at best and vermin at worst. Getting aid from the Kremlin in seizing power? We now recognize Bierut, Ulbricht, Gottwald, Rakosi, Gheorgiu-Dej, and Dimitroff, puppets of Stalin, as villains of history. To be sure any comparison of Putin to Stalin is hysterical, but a government that owes its power to support from a foreign power is suspect.

If we as Americans are fortunate we will be able to see President Trump and those  who owe their political power, either in gaining or maintaining it, from a sordid deal with a crooked but well-meaning agent  dictatorial regime hostile to democracy anywhere else as illegitimate. Maybe we will see the acts of such politicians as void, much like 112 wins in 1993 and 1996 through 1999 as well as all tournament wins on teams for which only the losses are now recognized.

Unfortunately for us the strange actions of President Trump and the attempt of Republicans to transform our republic into a pure plutocracy will be unpleasant memories for most of us.

[Eric the Green]

I wonder if Stephen Colbert rickrolling him contributed to Nunes' rick-usal?
https://youtu.be/MmWm5gB7ico

[Bob Butler 54]

(04-05-2017, 09:16 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Bob, you can put your faith where you like.  Let me just suffice it to say I've been around BLM long enough to know what they are and what they are about.  And of course I should point out the wonderful work of Milo.

Hmm... Not going to be trusting of Alt Right sources on issues of equality. Prejudice and privilege are among their prime spinning points. Not objective.

[pbrower2a]

(04-01-2017, 03:36 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-31-2017, 11:58 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(03-31-2017, 04:44 PM)Kinser79 (to Bob Butler) Wrote: There's one problem with your theory.  They don't organize peaceful protests.  Were it merely that they would merely be annoying.  BLM mostly instigates riots and anti-police crime.  As for the police themselves statistics indicate that they are prejudiced against shooting blacks in proportion to the rate at which that race commits crimes--particularly violent crime.  Remember Blacks are 13% of the population but commit half the murders and robberies.

"Black lives matter"... or we all have a problem. That includes me, someone who could hardly be "whiter". A nasty society in which to live for any large population -- and that includes poor whites, too -- makes life more precarious for us all. Note that I did not say that violent criminals who happen to be black need a "get away from the consequences" card because some of their ancestors were slaves. Pull a gun on a cop and die, especially when the cops have body armor and almost invariably get the second shot with a more lethal aim. One reason for criminal homicides going down is that the cops now survive felonious assaults and those who commit those felonious assaults never make it to jail or the courtroom, let alone the execution chamber.

By the way -- I have a suggestion for solving many of the problems of any oppressed people in America -- more rigorous, effective s[url=http://generational-theory.com/forum/newreply.php?tid=401&replyto=24411][/url]chooling. If it works for middle-class people of every ethnic group in America, then why can't it work for...

Yes, parents must turn off the Idiot Screen and the video games.

The Tee-Vee is a dead medium PBR.  As for video games there is no concrete linkage between them and increased violence or sexism--but it is up to parents to set priories until such time as their children are capable of doing that themselves.

For people too poor for anything else, who have no access to anything else because other entertainments are unavailable (as in prison), are too lazy to find something else to do with spare time, or lack the desire for anything better, TV is very much alive and well as a medium.  The people who get the most out of TV are paradoxically the people who use it least.

Say what you want about television, but between PBS and pay channels like HBO we are having a renaissance of creativity in drama. The networks have even put live stage performances on television as they once did. But yes, the people whose sole entertainment is television watch lots of crap. I am reminded (I think it was Studs Terkel in Working) that prison inmates watch much TV. Staff recognize TV as a pacifier and time-killer, so it makes administration far easier. Men (he was not referring to women) prefer TV that shows lots of T&A and care little about story line or other intellectual qualities. No Masterpiece Theater, Great Performances, NOVA, or Nature for them! 

Quote:As to the matter with the organization known as "Black Lives Matter" (who is whom I'm referring to when I say BLM--unless I indicate otherwise) the problem is that they are calling for the removal of police from the very streets on which black people live.  I don't know what you know about crime, but criminals rarely commit said crimes right in front of the police (unless they are stupid) so removing them from our neighborhoods might reduce the extremely small numbers of people shot by police it will increase crime.  Crime breeds poverty which breeds more crime.

Wrong. They want bad cops out of black neighborhoods. There are plenty of bad cops. Police work attracts sociopaths because cops get plenty of opportunity to make life miserable for people. (So do some other occupations that give people power, access to cash, and personal authority). I obviously can't speak for black people -- I'd have to doll up like Rachel Dolezal to find out first-hand, and at my age I would not get to find out what life is like for young black men who experience racism at its worst, which is what would count, anyway. Neighborhood policing has been shown to work very well as people get to know the police as human beings.

Most crime is committed by few people -- crooks best described as one-man or one-woman crime waves. Remove the person, and the crime wave comes to an end. Washington State had a problem with seemingly-pointless murders; the causes were in turn Ted Bundy and "Green River Killer" Gary Ridgway. Note that such community organizers as Barack Obama knew well enough to heed signs of sociopathic behavior more likely to cause people to go criminal than poverty alone.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:I would also indicate again that the main cause of unnatural death amongst blacks is in fact being killed by other non-police black people.  If one wants to save black lives, black people should start by not killing each other.  In the words of RuPaul "If you don't love yourself how the hell you gonna love anyone else?".  Black on black crime is real and a serious issue but since it doesn't fit the hate the white man narrative BLM isn't interested.

What if I told you that white people use more drugs, use worse drugs, and get away with them longer?

So what?  It would seem to indicate to me that whites might have several factors going for them that blacks don't.  A greater proportion not actively poor (it is easier for a richer person to maintain an Oxy habit than it is for a poor one to maintain a crack habit--such is the difference between being richer and poorer), a lower propensity to act the fool while on drugs or trying to obtain drugs (I don't subscribe to the anti-scientific notion that evolution stopped below the neck in humans) regardless of class.  

But all of that seems to indicate to me that is a failure of the War on Drugs.  It seems to me that gangs and so on would have a harder time shooting each other up over the crack spot if one can go down to their local Walgreens and get all the base they need, and at a higher purity and cheaper price.  What drives gang violence is the profit to be made over the drugs trade, a trade created by prohibition--amazingly something that hurt the Mafia far more than RICO ever could was the repeal of the 18th amendment.

There are certain drugs that you just do not want out on the street. The British may have the right solution -- addicts get the doses that they need in a clinical setting practically free of charge. A medical professional administers the drug. That takes away any need for street dealing and takes the profit out of street drugs. There are no pushers trying to make addicts out of non-users.

That said, heroin, cocaine, and meth are stilll horrible.

Quote:

Quote:OK, whatever one's ethnicity, poverty makes life far harder and personal decisions more difficult. I recall seeing a study in which much murder was over money. Middle-class people burned for $20 simply abandon their losses if they can't get them corrected.  For them, $20 is easy to come by. Poor people were more likely to act violently to being burned. Tellingly, middle-class people asked to draw dollar bills drew them at the right size. Poorer people tended to draw them bigger than they really are.

I have no solution to the class problem other than to increase police presence and liberalize the availability of starting businesses.  I've told people repeatedly if the black community wants to get out of poverty the solution isn't more welfare, the solution is to get a job, and if you can't find a job to make one up.  Of course after that I'm told I'm an Uncle Tom and that I should stop "acting white".

More police presence is appropriate for stopping crime. Much of the heavy police presence in some areas is to reassure out-of-town people that they are safe despite being in a statistically-dangerous place (like Detroit). Sales taxes on people buying souvenirs at Detroit sports teams or paying for parking are a big chunk of local revenue. The cops are there to signal to people from Kalamazoo or Lansing that they are safe at or near the stadium. But I get on the freeway as fast as possible to get out of town, and I am delighted to see a sign that reads "Dearborn city limit". I know what happens in the not-so-touristy parts of Detroit.

Enterprise? That has been a traditional escape from poverty in urban America.

Quote:I would argue that there is an other factor that Blacks have that whites don't.  There is the whole "Thug Culture" thing.  It literally takes the very worst aspects of a culture and promotes it.  I'm going to refer again to Chris Rock's statements:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3PJF0YE-x4

It has a perverse appeal... when it is uniformly treated as repugnant, it will vanish.

[Kinser79]

(04-07-2017, 11:23 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(04-05-2017, 09:16 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Bob, you can put your faith where you like.  Let me just suffice it to say I've been around BLM long enough to know what they are and what they are about.  And of course I should point out the wonderful work of Milo.

Hmm...  Not going to be trusting of Alt Right sources on issues of equality.  Prejudice and privilege are among their prime spinning points.  Not objective.

Milo is about as Alt-Right as John Major.

[Kinser79]

PBR Wrote:For people too poor for anything else, who have no access to anything else because other entertainments are unavailable (as in prison), are too lazy to find something else to do with spare time, or lack the desire for anything better, TV is very much alive and well as a medium.

 

Just about everyone has a smart phone these days.  Computers and internet connections are dirt cheap.  Seriously TV is dead, and has been dead for a long time.  Like I said I have cable for my mother--were she not alive I wouldn't even have it because she's the one who uses it.  So I would say if people are still watching TV, it has to be the over 60 crowd.  Everyone else is on the internet watching what they want, when they want.

Quote:Say what you want about television, but between PBS and pay channels like HBO we are having a renaissance of creativity in drama.

If you look at where and who is producing this Drama it isn't Hollyweird.  And I don't watch Game of Thrones on the Tee-Vee either.  I refuse to pay for HBO and would rather watch it pirated.

Quote:No Masterpiece Theater, Great Performances, NOVA, or Nature for them!

Apparently he's not been to my house.  I'm pretty sure that three quarters of the occupants are owners of penises and we all watch those programs.

That being said there is and always have been those who have had no interest in entertainments that are more cerebral.

Quote:<snip>Muh BLM</snip>

You are utterly clueless.  The vast majority of police officers are not racist, are not sociopathic, and are not bad.  The facts simply are not on your side here. 

Trans-race isn't a thing.  That woman is just disturbed.  I think she may have some sort of race based dysphoria.  But a a Black man who once was young I can tell you first hand that I have never experienced overt racism from the police.  Or whites in general.  No I get my racism from other blacks--cause I like to do "white thangz" like speaking English correctly, reading, wearing my trousers correctly and having a disdain for thug "culture".

I refer you again to Chris Rock's statements on the differences between Black People and well that other word.

Finally you failed to address my point.  If police are removed, do you expect crime to go up or go down.  If you plan on saying down--that's not how reality works.  For many people they will behave themselves without an external reminder that there are consequences for their actions, for others that external reminder is absolutely necessary.

Quote:<snip>Muh Drugs War</snip>

While I do agree that heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine are all things people should not do, I do not think that prohibition of those items has caused any decrease in their use.  In fact prohibition has made the use of these substances a lucrative criminal enterprise for organized crime, lessened the purity of the substances themselves, and enabled young people inclined to use them have far greater access to them.

In short prohibition isn't working, so instead of trying more of that thing that isn't working, lets try doing something else.  Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Quote:Enterprise? That has been a traditional escape from poverty in urban America.

It is the only escape from poverty in urban, suburban or rural America.  If you don't like being poor do something, anything about it. 

Quote:It has a perverse appeal... when it is uniformly treated as repugnant, it will vanish.

Thug "culture" has absolutely no appeal what-so-ever.  Being a thug results in only two outcomes: Prison or the cemetery.  Like I said it is a glorification of the absolute worse elements of Black American culture--were I a conspiracy theorist I would say that it is promoted to keep blacks in a lower societal position.  But as with most things I find it imprudent to attribute to malice that which is more easily explained by ignorance.  I refer you again to the link I provided.  Chris Rock explains it very well.

I will say that the welfare state and single parenthood have not helped in this area,