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What will happen if someone lives by 3T values in the 1T?
#1
And does what people in the 3T do?
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#2
If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#3
However that person may end up being the beginning of something larger come the 2T when that voice gets louder thanks to a new prophet generation.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#4
(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)taramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

What about someone living by 2T ideals in the 1T, defending those ideals very fiercely, and saying and living what the new prophets would say and questioning the order? Would they have an easier time or a harder time than the 3T person?
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#5
(10-08-2016, 05:15 PM)disasterzone Wrote:
(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)taramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

What about someone living by 2T ideals in the 1T, defending those ideals very fiercely, and saying and living what the new prophets would say and questioning the order? Would they have an easier time or a harder time than the 3T person?

They would have a harder time however as those people would eventually have numbers on their side change will ultimately happen and some more open minded older folk may join them.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#6
How would the Civics see the 2T person? Especially one who was big and into identity politics, lamenting that their group was less discriminated against and shoved in a box before the 1T and saying they won't take it? How would the Nomads see such a person in the 1T?
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#7
(10-08-2016, 05:30 PM)disasterzone Wrote: How would the Civics see the 2T person? Especially one who was big and into identity politics, lamenting that their group has more advancement before the 1T and saying they won't take it? How would the Nomads see such a person in the 1T?

Civics:
If their ideas clash with their ideals get ready for something ugly if those new ideal begin to take hold of a new generation. They would view them as immoral, rebel rousers, destroyers of the peace and delinquent. They would want a separation of culture, church and politics I imagine given how well that has gone down from their memory and what i hear fellow civics saying now.

Nomads:
Probably more open minded to it given it is a free thought however they would be too tired to care much. Do not quote me on that though. I am only guessing as I am not a nomad. I am an Apollonian kiwi millennial who is just referring to various historical articles I have read as well as the theory and the Apollonian/Dionysian theory.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#8
(10-08-2016, 04:00 PM)disasterzone Wrote: And does what people in the 3T do?

This. Smile
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#9
(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)aramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

Precisely. The American High (1946-1963), in which nostalgia for the Roaring Twenties was unthinkable, will likely serve as a possible analogy. Trying to live as if it were the Roaring Twenties required that one live with the accoutrements of the Roaring Twenties, most of which had been scrapped, lost, unavailable, or unserviceable. In big cities, housing from the time had often become, or was about to become, slums.

By the late 1930s things were better for most Americans than they were in the late 1920s. Securities values had not recovered from the heady prices of the late 1920s, and they would not reach those prices again until the 1950s. People blamed bad behavior of the 1920s for then recent hardships and expected similar results for similar tendencies.

The last 4T was innocuous for most Americans; the few exceptions were war casualties. For some ethnic groups (like Polish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, and to a considerable extent Irish-Americans) the 4T was the time in which they started to get some respectability.

Elsewhere? For European Jews, for the Spanish Left, for political offenders who ended up in the maws of the Gestapo and OGPU, for just about anyone living between Berlin and Vienna on the west and and either Leningrad*, Moscow, or Stalingrad*, and for denizens of Rotterdam, Coventry, Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, Shanghai, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki the 4T was an unspeakable horror. This time we Americans might not be so fortunate as Americans of the last 4T. Mister, we could use a man like 'Abram' Lincoln again!

The destructive weapons of our time are far more devastating, and there are fewer places in which to hide. Should we Americans get pathological government (Donald Trump will not be the last threat of such when he loses; the stresses of a 4T have typically created openings for demagogues), then we could have a 4T that causes many American cities to look like Dresden at the end of World War II. Most of the nastiness of this time reflects efforts of privileged elites to maintain the business practices and economic inequality of the recent 3T, hoping to enshrine such for all time. Such is failure.

But I digress. The recent 3T will be mocked in humor of the next 1T when it is not faulted for all the faults of the current Crisis, let alone the tragedy and material destruction at the end of the Crisis.

Just imagine what the world would be like had the victorious Allies decided to lighten up on reparations from a defeated German people in the shaky Weimar Republic. Hitler becomes an irrelevancy; large Jewish populations flourish in Europe, prospering in countries like Poland and Romania that never underwent Communist rule. We may have cures for cancer and prion diseases... and have life expectancies in the 110s. The Federal Republic of China 'missed out' on Maoism and catapulted into prosperity by 1970. Korea might have gotten independence in a form resembling Dominion status in Canada. The only separation in India is of Burma.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#10
(10-09-2016, 02:32 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)aramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

Precisely. The American High (1946-1963), in which nostalgia for the Roaring Twenties was unthinkable, will likely serve as a possible analogy. Trying to live as if it were the Roaring Twenties required that one live with the accoutrements of the Roaring Twenties, most of which had been scrapped, lost, unavailable, or unserviceable. In big cities, housing from the time had often become, or was about to become, slums.

By the late 1930s things were better for most Americans than they were in the late 1920s. Securities values had not recovered from the heady prices of the late 1920s, and they would not reach those prices again until the 1950s. People blamed bad behavior of the 1920s for then recent hardships and expected similar results for similar tendencies.

The last 4T was innocuous for most Americans; the few exceptions were war casualties. For some ethnic groups (like Polish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, and to a considerable extent Irish-Americans) the 4T was the time in which they started to get some respectability.  

Elsewhere? For European Jews, for the Spanish Left, for political offenders who ended up in the maws of the Gestapo and OGPU, for just about anyone living between Berlin and Vienna on the west and and either Leningrad*, Moscow, or Stalingrad*, and for denizens of Rotterdam, Coventry, Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, Shanghai, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki the 4T was an unspeakable horror. This time we Americans might not be so fortunate as Americans of the last 4T. Mister, we could use a man like 'Abram' Lincoln again!

The destructive weapons of our time are far more devastating, and there are fewer places in which to hide. Should we Americans get pathological government (Donald Trump will not be the last threat of such when he loses; the stresses of a 4T have typically created openings for demagogues), then we could have a 4T that causes many American cities to look like Dresden at the end of World War II. Most of the nastiness of this time reflects efforts of privileged elites to maintain the business practices and economic inequality of the recent 3T, hoping to enshrine such for all time. Such is failure.

But I digress. The recent 3T will be mocked in humor of the next 1T when it is not faulted for all the faults of the current Crisis, let alone the tragedy and material destruction at the end of the Crisis.

Just imagine what the world would be like had the victorious Allies decided to lighten up on reparations from a defeated German people in the shaky Weimar Republic. Hitler becomes an irrelevancy; large Jewish populations flourish in Europe, prospering in countries like Poland and Romania that never underwent Communist rule. We may have cures for cancer and prion diseases... and have life expectancies in the 110s. The Federal Republic of China 'missed out' on Maoism and catapulted into prosperity by 1970. Korea might have gotten independence in a form resembling Dominion status in Canada. The only separation in India is of Burma.
Thank you. I am also going by how my peers would take such a disturbance. As we are Apollonian civics (yours in America are Dionysian) we have more in common with your GI's due to when we were born the culture felt settled and so we focus more on cementing what we learned as children and creating more laws and can do so quicker as there tends to be mutual agreement. So progress can happen very quickly here. I think that insight is important as it may give an insight as to how they would have felt about a sudden cultural shift when they thought it was all sorted well before they were born. Now your current civics may feel differently as they are still fighting for a cultural consensus. Us Apollonian kiwi civics are not. In fact our boomers lament that we are disinterested in that sort of culture shift altogether. So, I know how the majority of your GI's would have felt. It may very well be sort of different for Dionysian civics. I do not know how they would feel as I have not lived in an environment where the culture is still being debated. Only seen it from afar and it is inconceivable to me that it is still being debated.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#11
They will get chewed out for "being stuck in the culture wars".
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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#12
(10-08-2016, 05:15 PM)disasterzone Wrote:
(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)taramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

What about someone living by 2T ideals in the 1T, defending those ideals very fiercely, and saying and living what the new prophets would say and questioning the order? Would they have an easier time or a harder time than the 3T person?

Probably so.

The 3T was culture wars. So the conformists were embattled, but powerful. All one has to do is associate with your side. In the 2T, conformists were on the ropes. So living 2T values in the conformist 1T would be a bit harder. But the beatnicks did it, toward the latter part of the 1T, and they got along pretty well and were setting trends that expanded in the 2T. Except Ginsberg, who was arrested for his poetry. The human potential movement, which expanded in the 2T, began in the First.

But those who had been communists in the 4T, they got slammed in the 1T. So it may be a question of some people living 4T values having a hard time in a 1T.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#13
Someone living as in a 2T way in the 3T will be pre-seasonal.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#14
(10-09-2016, 02:32 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)aramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

Precisely. The American High (1946-1963), in which nostalgia for the Roaring Twenties was unthinkable, will likely serve as a possible analogy. Trying to live as if it were the Roaring Twenties required that one live with the accoutrements of the Roaring Twenties, most of which had been scrapped, lost, unavailable, or unserviceable. In big cities, housing from the time had often become, or was about to become, slums.

By the late 1930s things were better for most Americans than they were in the late 1920s. Securities values had not recovered from the heady prices of the late 1920s, and they would not reach those prices again until the 1950s. People blamed bad behavior of the 1920s for then recent hardships and expected similar results for similar tendencies.

The last 4T was innocuous for most Americans; the few exceptions were war casualties. For some ethnic groups (like Polish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, and to a considerable extent Irish-Americans) the 4T was the time in which they started to get some respectability.  

Elsewhere? For European Jews, for the Spanish Left, for political offenders who ended up in the maws of the Gestapo and OGPU, for just about anyone living between Berlin and Vienna on the west and and either Leningrad*, Moscow, or Stalingrad*, and for denizens of Rotterdam, Coventry, Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, Shanghai, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki the 4T was an unspeakable horror. This time we Americans might not be so fortunate as Americans of the last 4T. Mister, we could use a man like 'Abram' Lincoln again!

The destructive weapons of our time are far more devastating, and there are fewer places in which to hide. Should we Americans get pathological government (Donald Trump will not be the last threat of such when he loses; the stresses of a 4T have typically created openings for demagogues), then we could have a 4T that causes many American cities to look like Dresden at the end of World War II. Most of the nastiness of this time reflects efforts of privileged elites to maintain the business practices and economic inequality of the recent 3T, hoping to enshrine such for all time. Such is failure.

But I digress. The recent 3T will be mocked in humor of the next 1T when it is not faulted for all the faults of the current Crisis, let alone the tragedy and material destruction at the end of the Crisis.

Just imagine what the world would be like had the victorious Allies decided to lighten up on reparations from a defeated German people in the shaky Weimar Republic. Hitler becomes an irrelevancy; large Jewish populations flourish in Europe, prospering in countries like Poland and Romania that never underwent Communist rule. We may have cures for cancer and prion diseases... and have life expectancies in the 110s. The Federal Republic of China 'missed out' on Maoism and catapulted into prosperity by 1970. Korea might have gotten independence in a form resembling Dominion status in Canada. The only separation in India is of Burma.


Umm, the Great Depression???  Pretty sure most Americans were worse off in the 1930s than in the 1920s.  Perhaps things were starting to ease up a little by the late thirties, but then came the war years--the rationing, the fears of fascism, the loss of loved ones in war.  Of course, the miseries of the last 4T were due to the excesses and errors of previous turnings, but I think by the following 1T people were starting to forget the inequalities of the 3T and nostalgically remember the fun and glamour. 

There's nothing wrong with remembering the fun times, if you also remember the bad times, and how they came to be.







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#15
(10-10-2016, 03:11 PM)gabrielle Wrote:
(10-09-2016, 02:32 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)aramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

Precisely. The American High (1946-1963), in which nostalgia for the Roaring Twenties was unthinkable, will likely serve as a possible analogy. Trying to live as if it were the Roaring Twenties required that one live with the accoutrements of the Roaring Twenties, most of which had been scrapped, lost, unavailable, or unserviceable. In big cities, housing from the time had often become, or was about to become, slums.

By the late 1930s things were better for most Americans than they were in the late 1920s. Securities values had not recovered from the heady prices of the late 1920s, and they would not reach those prices again until the 1950s. People blamed bad behavior of the 1920s for then recent hardships and expected similar results for similar tendencies.

The last 4T was innocuous for most Americans; the few exceptions were war casualties. For some ethnic groups (like Polish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, and to a considerable extent Irish-Americans) the 4T was the time in which they started to get some respectability.  

Elsewhere? For European Jews, for the Spanish Left, for political offenders who ended up in the maws of the Gestapo and OGPU, for just about anyone living between Berlin and Vienna on the west and and either Leningrad*, Moscow, or Stalingrad*, and for denizens of Rotterdam, Coventry, Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, Shanghai, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki the 4T was an unspeakable horror. This time we Americans might not be so fortunate as Americans of the last 4T. Mister, we could use a man like 'Abram' Lincoln again!

The destructive weapons of our time are far more devastating, and there are fewer places in which to hide. Should we Americans get pathological government (Donald Trump will not be the last threat of such when he loses; the stresses of a 4T have typically created openings for demagogues), then we could have a 4T that causes many American cities to look like Dresden at the end of World War II. Most of the nastiness of this time reflects efforts of privileged elites to maintain the business practices and economic inequality of the recent 3T, hoping to enshrine such for all time. Such is failure.

But I digress. The recent 3T will be mocked in humor of the next 1T when it is not faulted for all the faults of the current Crisis, let alone the tragedy and material destruction at the end of the Crisis.

Just imagine what the world would be like had the victorious Allies decided to lighten up on reparations from a defeated German people in the shaky Weimar Republic. Hitler becomes an irrelevancy; large Jewish populations flourish in Europe, prospering in countries like Poland and Romania that never underwent Communist rule. We may have cures for cancer and prion diseases... and have life expectancies in the 110s. The Federal Republic of China 'missed out' on Maoism and catapulted into prosperity by 1970. Korea might have gotten independence in a form resembling Dominion status in Canada. The only separation in India is of Burma.


Umm, the Great Depression???  Pretty sure most Americans were worse off in the 1930s than in the 1920s.  Perhaps things were starting to ease up a little by the late thirties, but then came the war years--the rationing, the fears of fascism, the loss of loved ones in war.  Of course, the miseries of the last 4T were due to the excesses and errors of previous turnings, but I think by the following 1T people were starting to forget the inequalities of the 3T and nostalgically remember the fun and glamour. 

There's nothing wrong with remembering the fun times, if you also remember the bad times, and how they came to be.








Singin' in the Rain? Some Like It Hot? Two of my favorite movies, both from the American High and depicting the latter part of the previous 3T. Nostalgia for the late 1920s? Hardly. Running away from Chicago gangsters might create some hilarious situations, but only for the audience. Watching the career demise of the full-of-herself Lena Lamont while the more rational characters like "Don Lockwood" (Gene Kelly), "Cosmo Brown" (Donald O'Connor), and Kathy Selden (Debbie Reynolds) prevail suggests something about America pnce it would become more serious and rational. And could I suggest Sunset Boulevard as the logical sequel for Singin' in the Rain, at least for the Lena Lamont character, someone (in Sunset Boulevard, Nora Desmond) who made big money in the Silent era but whose talents were terribly limited and unsuited to the "talkies"? Nora Desmond exemplifies someone trying to live in the 3T in a 1T... great story in cinematic form.

...America had not solved all its problems in the late 1930s, but in material terms it was in far better shape. People had more cars, refrigerators, and washing machines per capita, leaving little doubt that working-class and middle-class people were better off in 1939 than in 1929. The economic elites were not better off, of course. But Americans would be in better shape for the hardships of restricted consumerism in the following war. The cultural trends of the 1930s ensured that the Pearl Harbor attack would be a gigantic blunder. People who thought that America was a decadent collection of playboys found that assessment terribly wrong.

America had saved itself from its greatest threat of fascism; the KKK was dying (although, to be sure, it started to collapse before the Great Depression got underway). The mass culture had become sanitary while losing no quality. America became grossly intolerant of gangsterism (and would later compare its WWII enemies to gangsters like John Dillinger and Al Capone). The Great Depression and the Second World War had their roots in the preceding Degeneracy of World War I and the Roaring Twenties, the latter featuring one of the most destructive bubbles then possible, one that resulted from American government deciding that a speculative boom was the perfect way to accelerate economic growth.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#16
They could get the same returns as the last 3T. It's just they would have to be such extreme risk takers it wouldn't even be funny. I wonder though, since it will be mocked, how would they react to someone who lived the 3T life in the 1T and had wild business success from their risky actions and was very lavish about it? Would there be a lot of resentment?
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#17
What about someone who lived like it was the 2T in the 1T? Where they used a lot of experimental medicine/drugs, were very back to nature and technology rejecting, emphasized spirituality and close relationships, extreme individuality, self celebration, and identity politics? Where they kept disobeying society and telling them how oppressive they are and using a lot of things people consider "pseudo science" or woo.
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#18
.
(10-08-2016, 05:21 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(10-08-2016, 05:15 PM)disasterzone Wrote:
(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)taramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

What about someone living by 2T ideals in the 1T, defending those ideals very fiercely, and saying and living what the new prophets would say and questioning the order? Would they have an easier time or a harder time than the 3T person?

They would have a harder time however as those people would eventually have numbers on their side change will ultimately happen and some more open minded older folk may join them.

(10-10-2016, 07:26 AM)Odin Wrote: They will get chewed out for "being stuck in the culture wars".

What about someone who lived like it was the 2T in the 1T? Where they used a lot of experimental medicine/drugs, were very back to nature and technology rejecting, emphasized spirituality and close relationships, extreme individuality, self celebration, and identity politics? Where they kept disobeying society and telling them how oppressive they are and using a lot of things people consider "pseudo science" or woo. Rejecting the pharmaceutical industry full scale and rejecting the corporate culture or conformity of the office. Speaking against people who hired robots or had sex robots. Telling the people they weren't close enough and used machines to replace humanity.
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#19
(10-12-2016, 08:06 PM)disasterzone Wrote: .
(10-08-2016, 05:21 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(10-08-2016, 05:15 PM)disasterzone Wrote:
(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)taramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

What about someone living by 2T ideals in the 1T, defending those ideals very fiercely, and saying and living what the new prophets would say and questioning the order? Would they have an easier time or a harder time than the 3T person?

They would have a harder time however as those people would eventually have numbers on their side change will ultimately happen and some more open minded older folk may join them.

(10-10-2016, 07:26 AM)Odin Wrote: They will get chewed out for "being stuck in the culture wars".

What about someone who lived like it was the 2T in the 1T? Where they used a lot of experimental medicine/drugs, were very back to nature and technology rejecting, emphasized spirituality and close relationships, extreme individuality, self celebration, and identity politics? Where they kept disobeying society and telling them how oppressive they are and using a lot of things people consider "pseudo science" or woo. Rejecting the pharmaceutical industry full scale and rejecting the corporate culture or conformity of the office. Speaking against people who hired robots or had sex robots. Telling the people they weren't close enough and used machines to replace humanity.

Early in the 1T: ignored. Later in the 1T: looked upon as pioneers, trendsetters and wayshowers by some people, and admired and influential when the 2T comes in earnest.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#20
(10-10-2016, 10:09 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(10-08-2016, 05:15 PM)disasterzone Wrote:
(10-08-2016, 04:06 PM)taramarie Wrote: If their 3T ideals go against what the majority live by and not seen as rational they will be ignored and viewed as a replica of the destructive tendencies of their parents generation as well as having the 4T fresh in their minds they will not want a return to that. They will crave order for the ideal of peace for at least the majority.

What about someone living by 2T ideals in the 1T, defending those ideals very fiercely, and saying and living what the new prophets would say and questioning the order? Would they have an easier time or a harder time than the 3T person?

Probably so.

The 3T was culture wars. So the conformists were embattled, but powerful. All one has to do is associate with your side. In the 2T, conformists were on the ropes. So living 2T values in the conformist 1T would be a bit harder. But the beatnicks did it, toward the latter part of the 1T, and they got along pretty well and were setting trends that expanded in the 2T. Except Ginsberg, who was arrested for his poetry. The human potential movement, which expanded in the 2T, began in the First.

But those who had been communists in the 4T, they got slammed in the 1T. So it may be a question of some people living 4T values having a hard time in a 1T.

I wonder if there will be the next incarnation of McCarthyism in the next 1T. I think there will be hate towards people who have holdover views from the 4T because they'll see them as disrupting the peaceful society. I think with the internet, it's definitely possible. We have witch hunts now for different people except it's on more people and it spreads faster on an online platform.

Since I wasn't there, what happened to members of the GI generation who thought like the Beats in the 1T but weren't a part of the movement? What happened to them and what did they do to cope with the era?

I also wonder what would happen to a 4T type person who's angry that the revolution they wanted never happened and thinking everything's too wishy washy and mild. Someone who wants to push their 4T ideology on the max and believes that should have been the solution.
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