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http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-...can-party/
Quote:Legend has it that after leveling Carthage in the Third Punic War, Roman army generals ordered that the city’s fields be sown with salt so that they’d lie fallow for years, Roman generals not being particularly well known for their benevolence in victory.
Many Republicans think Donald Trump’s nomination is doing roughly the same thing to their party: destroying any chance for growth it once had and leaving the GOP to wither and die on Trump vineyard vines.
“My general sense, looking at this election, is that what we’re witnessing here is the end of something much more than the beginning of something,” Yuval Levin, editor of the conservative policy journal National Affairs, told me recently...
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-...can-party/
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07-18-2016, 08:58 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2016, 09:33 PM by naf140230.)
(07-18-2016, 08:42 PM)Dan Wrote: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-...can-party/
Quote:Legend has it that after leveling Carthage in the Third Punic War, Roman army generals ordered that the city’s fields be sown with salt so that they’d lie fallow for years, Roman generals not being particularly well known for their benevolence in victory.
Many Republicans think Donald Trump’s nomination is doing roughly the same thing to their party: destroying any chance for growth it once had and leaving the GOP to wither and die on Trump vineyard vines.
“My general sense, looking at this election, is that what we’re witnessing here is the end of something much more than the beginning of something,” Yuval Levin, editor of the conservative policy journal National Affairs, told me recently...
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-...can-party/
I've seen that, too. It does not say the Republican Party will cease to exist, but that is a possibility.
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But is the Democratic Party really in any better shape?
True, thanks to the hardhat takeover of the Republicans via Trump, they are no longer a threat - but the anti-neoliberal stalwarts are a threat, and are increasingly singing Bad Moon Rising:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/mi...-is-913121
"These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation" - Justice David Brewer, Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892
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(07-21-2016, 07:23 AM)Anthony Wrote: But is the Democratic Party really in any better shape?
True, thanks to the hardhat takeover of the Republicans via Trump, they are no longer a threat - but the anti-neoliberal stalwarts are a threat, and are increasingly singing Bad Moon Rising:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/mi...-is-913121
It's more likely that the two parties will morph into new entities, shedding and adding new members until an equilibrium occurs. I don't have the foggiest what that will be, but it won't mimic the European parties because we aren't operationally parliamentarians. I do know that neither party is really functional, but the first to reform successfully will have the upper hand for a decade at least.
If any of the fringe parties was strong enough to emerge, then I might feel differently, but they aren't
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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Could it be that Americans are so fed up with this system during a 4T that they will do what needs to be done, and become parliamentarians? With the other reforms along with it?
Enact a parliamentary system
Introduce proportional representation of parties in congress
Establish ranked-choice voting so your second choice counts
End gerrymandering
Take money out of politics
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(07-21-2016, 11:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Could it be that Americans are so fed up with this system during a 4T that they will do what needs to be done, and become parliamentarians? With the other reforms along with it?
Enact a parliamentary system
Introduce proportional representation of parties in congress
Establish ranked-choice voting so your second choice counts
End gerrymandering
Take money out of politics
American and British occupiers practically dictated what sort of Constitutional order would arise in western Germany, in Italy, and even in France after World War II -- Constitutions that would more rigidly thwart totalitarian tendencies.
Ruthless people have found the seams in our Constitution, and we Americans may need to amend our Constitution to close those seams. In the old days people were scared to exploit those seams because such exploitation of the seams would set a bad example for the other Party were it to take power.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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07-22-2016, 06:50 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-22-2016, 06:52 AM by Odin.)
(07-21-2016, 11:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Could it be that Americans are so fed up with this system during a 4T that they will do what needs to be done, and become parliamentarians? With the other reforms along with it?
Enact a parliamentary system
Introduce proportional representation of parties in congress
Establish ranked-choice voting so your second choice counts
End gerrymandering
Take money out of politics
I oppose Proportional Representation because people just have to vote for the party and have no power to chose who the actual individual representing them is. It would make the hold of the party bosses even stronger than it is now. I do like ranked-choice voting, though.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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Wow!
‘The party died in this room tonight’: Nicole Wallace grief-stricken as Trump’s RNC speech ends
Quote:GOP strategist Nicole Wallace reacted to Donald Trump’s ominous speech at Republican National Convention by declaring that her party was dead.
Wallace, who served on Sen. John McCain’s 2008 campaign, spoke candidly as Trump wrapped up his acceptance of the Republican nomination for president and embraced his family on the stage Thursday night.
“You know, listening to this, I was struck by two things that I always believed during my two decades in the Republican politics,” she explained to NBC’s Lester Holt. “One, the voters always get it right. And two, the Republican Party that I worked for for two decades died in this room tonight.”
“We are now represented as a party by a man who believes in protectionism, isolationism and nativism,” Wallace continued. “And those are the forces that George W. Bush and, I belive, John McCain were most worried about during their times as the leaders of the Republican Party.”
NBC’s Chuck Todd was stunned: “You believe the party died tonight?”
“Well, the voters picked this guy, this is where the Republican Party is now,” Wallace replied. “They now are attracted to those forces of isolationism and protectionism.”
“But the party I was part of for two decades is dead.”
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More wow -
Ana Navarro Rips Into Trump's 'Disgusting' Speech
Quote:Never mind the message of making America "one again" — conservatives weredrastically split following Donald Trump's acceptance of the Republican nomination Thursday night. On CNN, things ignited when Ana Navarro stood up to Trump supporter Jeffrey Lord and former Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski.
"I'm embarrassed of my party. He sounded like a fearmonger. This is not Republicanism," Navarro said.
"Wow. Wow," Lord said over her, shaking his head.
"If you think anything that man said tonight is going to solve this crisis, you heard a different speech," she continued, raising her voice even more.
The argument continued:
Quote:[/url]
Follow
![[Image: zXdlqP3j_normal.jpg]](https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/745504937711271936/zXdlqP3j_normal.jpg) Adrian Carrasquillo
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Jeffrey Lord says to @ananavarro and @VanJones68 enough w/ identity politics
Navarro: That's easy to say as a white man.
11:51 PM - 21 Jul 2016 · Cleveland, OH, United States
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(07-22-2016, 06:50 AM)Odin Wrote: (07-21-2016, 11:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Could it be that Americans are so fed up with this system during a 4T that they will do what needs to be done, and become parliamentarians? With the other reforms along with it?
Enact a parliamentary system
Introduce proportional representation of parties in congress
Establish ranked-choice voting so your second choice counts
End gerrymandering
Take money out of politics
I oppose Proportional Representation because people just have to vote for the party and have no power to chose who the actual individual representing them is. It would make the hold of the party bosses even stronger than it is now. I do like ranked-choice voting, though.
I think in prop. rep you still vote for the person, but parties who do well get extra representatives. That's how I think it should work anyway. It's used in most democracies, which are also parliamentary. Our elected-king system is long-outdated. What difference does one vote for president out of millions make? We even set up a parliamentary system in our recent imperial colony Iraq, not our own system. Amazing, huh?
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(07-22-2016, 03:41 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: American and British occupiers practically dictated what sort of Constitutional order would arise in western Germany, in Italy, and even in France after World War II -- Constitutions that would more rigidly thwart totalitarian tendencies.
And today all of those countries have parliamentary systems.
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Quote:It's more likely that the two parties will morph into new entities, shedding and adding new members until an equilibrium occurs. I don't have the foggiest what that will be, but it won't mimic the European parties because we aren't operationally parliamentarians. I do know that neither party is really functional, but the first to reform successfully will have the upper hand for a decade at least.
I of course maintain that this process is already well under way, with the Republicans moving away from conservatism and toward national liberalism (or even National Socialism!), and the Democrats abandoning left-liberalism in favor of neoliberalism.
"These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation" - Justice David Brewer, Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892
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07-23-2016, 12:28 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-23-2016, 12:34 PM by Eric the Green.)
(07-23-2016, 10:14 AM)Anthony 58 Wrote: Quote:It's more likely that the two parties will morph into new entities, shedding and adding new members until an equilibrium occurs. I don't have the foggiest what that will be, but it won't mimic the European parties because we aren't operationally parliamentarians. I do know that neither party is really functional, but the first to reform successfully will have the upper hand for a decade at least.
I of course maintain that this process is already well under way, with the Republicans moving away from conservatism and toward national liberalism (or even National Socialism!), and the Democrats abandoning left-liberalism in favor of neoliberalism.
Only if you discount the great importance of the Sanders campaign. Bernie got more votes than The Donald, and he may push the Democrats AND the moderate neo-liberal Democratic president's wife to the Left-- and most-specifically AWAY from neo-liberalism.
Trump is a mixed bag who departs from some Republican neo-liberal shibboliths, but he's also neo-liberal to the max in his embrace of supply-side, trickle-down economics, including trashing the climate, and promises to stifle any reform of the "rigged system" of crony capitalism (which he says he's the only one who can fix because he's a crony capitalist) by appointing more Scalias to the Supreme Court. Citizens United guarantees no reform as long as it's the law.
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(07-23-2016, 12:28 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (07-23-2016, 10:14 AM)Anthony Wrote: Quote:It's more likely that the two parties will morph into new entities, shedding and adding new members until an equilibrium occurs. I don't have the foggiest what that will be, but it won't mimic the European parties because we aren't operationally parliamentarians. I do know that neither party is really functional, but the first to reform successfully will have the upper hand for a decade at least.
I of course maintain that this process is already well under way, with the Republicans moving away from conservatism and toward national liberalism (or even National Socialism!), and the Democrats abandoning left-liberalism in favor of neoliberalism.
Only if you discount the great important of the Sanders campaign. Bernie got more votes than The Donald, and he may push the Democrats AND the neo-liberal Democratic president's wife to the Left and most-specifically AWAY from neo-liberalism.
Seconding the importance of Sanders, what is needed is solutions to today's problems. To win elections then not disappoint the voters when one's policy is implemented you need something that will work and be perceived of as working. Thus, I am doubtful about answers supposing a return to an old philosophy. If one can only anticipate what the future will be like by supposing it will resemble some point in the past, one is apt to miss something.
Sanders approach can be picked up by another progressive, but Trump to a great degree is leading a personality cult. The Republican base is really discouraged by their Establishment. The Democrats can still more or less stomach theirs. I don't see the Democrats winning a filibuster proof Congress in November. I'm seeing a Clinton 45 victory with no Congress that can back her up, thus more of the same, with Hillary as an incumbent in 2020. As I see it, the problem isn't that the Democratic establishment isn't progressive enough, it's that they only try for what they can achieve, and they can't achieve much without a filibuster proof Congress.
While a lot of folks, partisans from both sides, and perhaps there might even be some non-partisans here, would like to see a regeneracy and some real shift in values and policy. Include me in that. I'm just not clear on how to get there from here.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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Quote:Trump is a mixed bag who departs from some Republican neo-liberal shibboliths, but he's also neo-liberal to the max in his embrace of supply-side, trickle-down economics, including trashing the climate, and promises to stifle any reform of the "rigged system" of crony capitalism (which he says he's the only one who can fix because he's a crony capitalist) by appointing more Scalias to the Supreme Court. Citizens United guarantees no reform as long as it's the law.
Supply-side, trickle-down economics - like slamming on the door on immigration to create labor shortages that will send low-end wages into the ionosphere - then the semi-skilled demand a raise to maintain a differential, and after they get it, the highly skilled do the same - banning the outsourcing of jobs, and slapping tariffs on foreign-made goods?
Trump is a complete demand-sider - and an ardent advocate of trickle-up economics.
"These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation" - Justice David Brewer, Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892
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(07-23-2016, 03:46 PM)Anthony 58 Wrote: Supply-side, trickle-down economics - like slamming on the door on immigration to create labor shortages that will send low-end wages into the ionosphere - then the semi-skilled demand a raise to maintain a differential, and after they get it, the highly skilled do the same - banning the outsourcing of jobs, and slapping tariffs on foreign-made goods?
Trump is a complete demand-sider - and an ardent advocate of trickle-up economics.
No, trickle-down economics is giving breaks to the rich in the hope benefits will trickle down. That's Trump's policy.
There is no immigration today, so only deportation will work for the Malthusian strategy. Even so, population increase has always been a pro-growth strategy that works. Trump opposes minimum wage hikes, just like Reagan/Bush-- which is why the benefits of supply-side tax and regulation policy didn't create a trickle-down effect.
To be a true demand-sider, Trump would have to be a Democrat, and oppose all those giveaways and tax relief to the rich. That's the essential ingredient. Trade and immigration policy don't make up for it.
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The logic is simple: the super-rich get even richer, spend more money on high-end goods, and above all hire more household staff (domestic servants).
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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Quote:There is no immigration today, so only deportation will work for the Malthusian strategy. Even so, population increase has always been a pro-growth strategy that works.
Guess you have never heard of Japan - or the Czech Republic.
"These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation" - Justice David Brewer, Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892
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John Dingell has gotten pretty old (90!), but he's still pretty sharp, and enjoying it -
![[Image: jiPHasvn_normal.jpg]](https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/751796404864122880/jiPHasvn_normal.jpg) John Dingell
✔@JohnDingell
Trump's greatest sacrifice, it appears, is the Republican Party as we know it.
9:31 AM - 1 Aug 2016
- [/url]
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