I VOTE YES ON CALEXIT!

[Galen]

(11-12-2016, 12:22 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-10-2016, 08:05 PM)Danilynn Wrote: Strange, I remember in November of 2012, a whole lot of petitions by Southern states to leave or Exit were bandied about. Then it was called traitorous, whiny, sour grapes, and a whole lot of other unflattering things usually ending in the suffix "ist".

So how come all of a sudden, it is now *ok* for California to want to do it for much the same reasons. Obama certainly didn't jive with most southerners or our values. But now it's ok?

seems like that lovely double standard the liberals have is rearing it's ugly head again.

If it is Treason for the South, it's Treason for ya'll.

Remember your arguments quoting Lincoln? Or how about Obama? "elections have consequences" and his speech on Wednesday about working together with our new President Trump.

The difference is that the Southern states left to protect slavery. Liberal states that leave a fascistic America will do so to preserve the "republican form of government" that the Constitution mandates for the states.

I seem to recall that secession was becoming more popular in Texas a couple of years ago and the liberals still started whining about it.

[Anthony '58]

If California were to leave, it could soon be joined by Oregon, Washington, and Hawaii - and if the demographic trends continue and Arizona turns blue in 2020, that would allow New Mexico and Colorado to "exit" was well (and residents of the other Western blue states could pour into Arizona during the next four years to make sure that it does happen).

Meanwhile, in the East, Hillary apparently having won New Hampshire preserves a coterminous block of blue states stretching from Maine to Virginia. Theses states could leave also, and the two blocks of states could then federate, creating a kind of latter-day "East Pakistan" and "West Pakistan."

[playwrite]

(11-11-2016, 04:00 PM)Odin Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 03:30 PM)taramarie Wrote: I see that a particular someone is posting some juvenile comments to me. Just so people know I will not respond to immature comments. It is merely bait by people who did not grow up. In fact I could easily report it. But I will never respond unless the person speaks to me in a mature fashion. Only then will you get a response. I have no time for petty games.

Playwright has a history of accusing everyone who disagrees with him of having deficient brains. He's the definition of the pretentious, elitist latte liberal, he even has a god-damned trust fund.

It's not name-calling, Odin, it's science.

When someone says the sky is blue, you can be infantile and call that name-calling but it is scientifically provable, it is descriptive.

We've been down this rabbit hole together before; I can see you haven't done your homework... again.  There are numerous behavioral science papers on the fundamental differences between those with more conservative views and those with more liberal.  More frightening, there are neurological studies linking those behavioral differences to both brain structure and processesing differences primarily associated with the relative dominance of the amgydala - the more primative area of the brain associated with the flight-or-response.

This time, I'm not going to do the work for you, it just leads to you going off and pouting.  There's this thing called "Google" - try it.

I've have had stints in teaching, both kids and adults.  One gets the usual laziness and forgetfulness of some studients - it's human nature.  The really frustrating ones however, are those with obvious intelligence and just as obvious intellectual laziness.

I can understand your jealousy of my postion in life.  I have the resources enough that I spent thousands of dollars this election trying to get good people elected. But it's more than money, I also personally phone-banked Florida voters for 60 total logged hours and traveled at my expense to do a couple days of GOTV in Prince William Co. Virginia - even at my age, I'm pretty sure I can out-hike 80-90% of the people on this forum.

Yes, I am part of an ancient extended family with members that are far far more wealthier than me.  Other than growing up in my parents house, I haven't taken a dime from that extended family wealth.  I earned my weaith. But, I also know I got lucky - in my business that's pretty much understood eventually by even the most egotistical or they die long before their time.  I've been lucky in life, but I'm pretty damn sure I've also had worse horrors in my life than you and probable most on this forum.  So yea,  I got the werewithall to live the elitist life but I don't flaunt it except perhaps in the performing arts, my industry, to keep that funded and alive.  What have you done?

As to the "trust," after this election, most people should know the big difference between good ones (Clinton Foundation) and badl ones (Trump Foundation).  The one that I'm a board member, without a chance of ever personally profiting from, is not only a good one, but predates the ones you hear about by decades.  I'm pretty damn sure you would applaud every dollar that my "trust" has spent, at least since I've been a voting board member.  Do you really want to deride me for that?

We can all claim to be Progressive, but I'm actually one that has put extensive amount of money, time and career expertise over decades to actually make things happen.  You really think you're in my league to deride me?  What have your done?

[playwrite]

(11-11-2016, 04:07 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 04:00 PM)Odin Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 03:30 PM)taramarie Wrote: I see that a particular someone is posting some juvenile comments to me. Just so people know I will not respond to immature comments. It is merely bait by people who did not grow up. In fact I could easily report it. But I will never respond unless the person speaks to me in a mature fashion. Only then will you get a response. I have no time for petty games.

Playwright has a history of accusing everyone who disagrees with him of having deficient brains. He's the definition of the pretentious, elitist latte liberal, he even has a god-damned trust fund.

Maybe. I am just tired of the fighting and silly behaviour I see around me. The inability to listen. I have awoken to the reality we must notice our own actions hurt us and what we stand for. Drawing us further away. If anyone should take anything from this Trump presidency it is that message. I warned people. Now I am further determined that it is helping in the destruction. So you see why I refuse to take the bait and feed it further. If I ever go quiet during a conversation that starts to get heated you will know why. I do not have the stomach for it anymore.

Yes, I can see why your so tired.  So many posts of dripping piety chastizing others in a different country on the other side of world for their lack of civility.  I'm sure you're barely able to move out of that chair to go get another crumbcake and a spot of tea.

The problem is no one is really buying your scantimounious dribble.  Sure, you get your 'go girl' from the Ayn Rand fanboy clique upset with me for pointing out their adolescent thinking or Odin who carries his butthurt grudges a tad too long.  They play off your inanity for their own purposes but even they're not really buying into it.  Why?  Because it's cheap and hollow, deary.

From our own Harry Reid, here is what we know you are NOT living with -

Quote:“I have personally been on the ballot in Nevada for 26 elections and I have never seen anything like the reaction to the election completed last Tuesday. The election of Donald Trump has emboldened the forces of hate and bigotry in America.

“White nationalists, Vladimir Putin and ISIS are celebrating Donald Trump’s victory, while innocent, law-abiding Americans are wracked with fear – especially African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Muslim Americans, LGBT Americans and Asian Americans. Watching white nationalists celebrate while innocent Americans cry tears of fear does not feel like America.
“I have heard more stories in the past 48 hours of Americans living in fear of their own government and their fellow Americans than I can remember hearing in five decades in politics. Hispanic Americans who fear their families will be torn apart, African Americans being heckled on the street, Muslim Americans afraid to wear a headscarf, gay and lesbian couples having slurs hurled at them and feeling afraid to walk down the street holding hands. American children waking up in the middle of the night crying, terrified that Trump will take their parents away. Young girls unable to understand why a man who brags about sexually assaulting women has been elected president.
“I have a large family. I have one daughter and twelve granddaughters. The texts, emails and phone calls I have received from them have been filled with fear – fear for themselves, fear for their Hispanic and African American friends, for their Muslim and Jewish friends, for their LBGT friends, for their Asian friends. I’ve felt their tears and I’ve felt their fear.
“We as a nation must find a way to move forward without consigning those who Trump has threatened to the shadows. Their fear is entirely rational, because Donald Trump has talked openly about doing terrible things to them. Every news piece that breathlessly obsesses over inauguration preparations compounds their fear by normalizing a man who has threatened to tear families apart, who has bragged about sexually assaulting women and who has directed crowds of thousands to intimidate reporters and assault African-Americans. Their fear is legitimate and we must refuse to let it fall through the cracks between the fluff pieces.

No, you are NOT living that.  You don't live in God's country, you're ensconced in the place God goes on vacation to get away from all the stress in God's country.  Lucky you!  It's a place where you can, from 12-15 time zones away, lay little flowering turds on an Internet forum about how other people should behave because, well, you know, you watch TV and American movies.

But no place is perfect.  I'm sure NZ has a few socioeconomic problems that a true Progressive could get their hands dirty with.  But that's not you Ms. Fluffy, is it?  How do I know?  It's your very scantimonious chastizing people on the other side of the world to join hands and sing kumbaya that's the dead give away.  Any Progressive that gets their hands dirty knows with certainty, from actual expericence, that 99 out of 100 times the problem is caused by some group of a-holes in the postion to do right but don't because they don't give a shit or worse, they're eager to try out some assinine political theory (see your Ayn Rand fanboys above) on other people but would be up in arms if someone tried it on them.  You don't convert these people with nice fluffy talk, Ms. Fluffy,  you defeat them.  You would know that if you had ever actually attempted  any social or political change.

But you don't.  That's why your scantimonious call for mutal pleasurable masturbation is cheap - just the cost of an Internet connection.

Now if you're not too exhausted, go get another crumbcake, Fluffy.

[Anthony '58]

About an hour ago, Joy Reid said, on MSNBC, that Mitch McConnell can unilaterally end the filibuster when he convenes the new Congress in January.

If this is true, the time for secession and civil war may be at hand.

[pbrower2a]

We need also remember -- Governors Rick Snyder (MI) and Scott Walker (WI) are intensely unpopular. 2018 looks like another low-turnout election, but maybe those two states....

It's too bad that Michigan didn't remain British after 1783.

[Eric the Green]

Too bad indeed. It's too late. Republicans have taken full control in the upper midwest, and it's what the voters want, no matter HOW unpopular they get, or HOW bad things get. Total denial is the order of the day.

If Walker is unpopular, why the fuck didn't they vote out that bozo Ron Johnson? It doesn't matter; they voted for him. If Scott Walker runs again, he'll win. So will Snyder. Anything's better than neo-socialism. Wisconsin is a full-bore red state in flyover country. Say goodbye to Tammy Baldwin too. Same thing in Michigan.

[Eric the Green]

(11-12-2016, 11:15 AM)Anthony 58 Wrote: About an hour ago, Joy Reid said, on MSNBC, that Mitch McConnell can unilaterally end the filibuster when he convenes the new Congress in January.

If this is true, the time for secession and civil war may be at hand.

Why did you vote for this, then?

[pbrower2a]

Maybe abortion, same-sex marriage, creationism, and school prayer.

[Warren Dew]

(11-12-2016, 11:15 AM)Anthony Wrote: About an hour ago, Joy Reid said, on MSNBC, that Mitch McConnell can unilaterally end the filibuster when he convenes the new Congress in January.

If this is true, the time for secession and civil war may be at hand.

Reid already partially ended the filibuster.  I hope that McConnell keeps it but I couldn't blame him if he ended it.

[playwrite]

(11-12-2016, 03:54 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(11-12-2016, 11:15 AM)Anthony Wrote: About an hour ago, Joy Reid said, on MSNBC, that Mitch McConnell can unilaterally end the filibuster when he convenes the new Congress in January.

If this is true, the time for secession and civil war may be at hand.

Reid already partially ended the filibuster.  I hope that McConnell keeps it but I couldn't blame him if he ended it.

Yep, very narrowly defined for Cabinet posts and Judical nominations; no exceptions at all for legislation. 

As to the Cabinet, imagine a President wanting to hire people to actually run the government?  Horrors!

As to Judiical nominations, the backlog was in terms of years at every level of the federal court system - do you have any idea of the backlog of cases that have gone nowhere as a result?

Reid finally said enough and very narrowly defined what could go through on just a majority vote.  They specifically got agreement with McConnell not to include a SCOTUS nomination with the notion that it would prevent a extremist (likely 1-term) President from leaving a legacy of extremism for decades with an extremist jurist.  How prescient was that! 

The problem of course is McConnell is GOP which means he doesn't give a shit about any promises he made or whatever has come before as long as builds the Right's power, baby.

[Eric the Green]

(11-12-2016, 03:40 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Maybe abortion, same-sex marriage, creationism, and school prayer.

All that stuff is still in the Republican platform. It don't see why they wouldn't carry it out and make it the law of the USA. (outlaw the first two, and enforce the second two). The people voted for this; that's what they'll get.

[gabrielle]

If the blue states secede from the union it will leave progressive individuals and those from groups who would be victimized in Trump's America--blacks, latinos, Muslims, gays etc--in the dirt.  So yeah, thanks a lot.

[Galen]

(11-12-2016, 03:54 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(11-12-2016, 11:15 AM)Anthony Wrote: About an hour ago, Joy Reid said, on MSNBC, that Mitch McConnell can unilaterally end the filibuster when he convenes the new Congress in January.

If this is true, the time for secession and civil war may be at hand.

Reid already partially ended the filibuster.  I hope that McConnell keeps it but I couldn't blame him if he ended it.

That is what I like about the left.  They never really consider the possible long term consequences of getting their way in the present.  Oops.

Looks like they should have given that notion a little more thought.

[gabrielle]

Since playwrite seems to be getting especially viscious, I think now's the time to remind him and the other smug establishment Democrats that they LOST BIGLY.  That means you went wrong somewhere.  Think about it a little bit.  Maybe Shaun King can help you out with that.  http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics...-1.2866238

Besides, I don't know why you should be attacking Odin, considering he did exactly what you wanted--he "fell in line" and voted for Clinton in the general (at least I'm assuming he did, judging from his posts leading up to the election).  I did too.

Quote:The Democratic Party is having an identity crisis. While the groundswell of grassroots support in its base is anti-police brutality, pro-environment, pro-immigrant, anti-war, pro-$15 minimum wage, for the legalization of marijuana, and strongly against the Dakota Access Pipeline — the party in general, and Hillary Clinton in particular, lack core convictions on all of these issues and it shows. I’d be that nearly every single activist and leader in each of those niche communities will tell you that they feel like strangers in the Democratic Party.

Although it already seems like ancient history, you must remember that the head of the Democratic National Committee, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, left in a shroud of scandal surrounding emails that were derogatory towards Bernie Sanders and only confirmed the anti-Bernie bias many of us knew existed for more than a year. Three other top officials from the DNC were fired for the very same thing.

Longtime Democratic operative, Donna Brazile, was brought in to replace Wasserman Schultz. It seemed like a smart move, but further email leaks have only showed us that she, too, was a part of the problem as she continually fed the Clinton campaign questions that Hillary would receive for debates during the primary. The move has all but eroded trust in her leadership from progressives who were already deeply skeptical of the party.

Before the Democratic primaries even began or any of the candidates had their first debate, Hillary Clinton and her team had already sowed up commitments from hundreds of career politicians to serve as her superdelegates — building her what often looked like an insurmountable lead. Even in states where Bernie Sanders beat Hillary Clinton by a landslide, party operatives routinely pledged their support to her anyway — all but ignoring the reality that Bernie was building the very type of populist movement that could have actually defeated Donald Trump.

As we now see, this election was not about high-skilled political operatives, polls or even national campaign experience. Trump had none of that. This campaign was about large crowds, big events, momentum, tone and social media. Bernie did those things well. Bernie was the anti-Trump. Trump lacks integrity. Bernie is known for his. Trump is a shady billionaire who has stiffed tons of everyday people. Bernie has spent his whole life fighting for working class folk. Trump is a liar and Bernie is known for his straight-to-the-point honesty.

Hillary Clinton was an absolutely terrible matchup for Donald Trump. I said as much in May when every poll that was released showed Bernie crushing Trump, but Hillary consistently struggling against him. Time and time and time again, polls showed Hillary struggling against Trump. Instead of taking the time to truly understand them, expert pundits and pollsters opted to repeatedly dismiss the validity or methodology of those polls. Clearly, polls like the LA Times/USC poll, which consistently showed Trump ahead, but was widely dismissed as junk science as a result, were on to something.

But that was the M.O. of the Democratic Party from the time the primaries began until we were all gobsmacked by a Trump victory — dismiss all evidence that says anything other than Hillary Clinton was inevitable. But here we are.

The Democratic Party can no longer ride the coattails of President Obama. The Democratic Party truly needs to start over from scratch and put people at its core. It clearly has no idea what it’s doing and has, as a result, put us all in danger.

[Eric the Green]

I more or less agree, but let's unpack this a little from my point of view.

Calling playwrite "establishment" is not fair; he was just pragmatic. There's a difference. Many really believed that Bernie was too liberal to have a chance in conservative America.

The article seems correct that it was Bernie who had the better chance, because he was a better candidate more in touch with what the people were experiencing.

We lost bigly, but not because we lost by a big margin. All the defeats were close.

It's not fair to say Hillary was weak on all of those issues. Some of them, yes.

In 2008, when it appeared that Barack Obama was going to win the majority of delegates decided by elections and caucuses, the superdelegates switched their allegiance from Hillary to him. Don't you think that would have happened this time?

There was no evidence that any "rigging" would have made any difference in the outcome of the primaries; not by a long shot. Those who failed to vote for Hillary because of that accusation, helped to give us Trump.

Bernie would have been a stronger candidate. That was indicated by the polls, and by my horoscope system as well.

But the reason Bernie was not chosen, was not because someone ignored the polls. The voters chose Hillary because they knew her and her record and respected her.

The LA Times poll was a consistent outlier for Trump and did not come close to the national vote. It was not "on to something" at all. Ironically, the Rasmussen poll, which usually favors Republicans, came the closest. There are many reasons polls fail. Lichtman summed it up by saying polls measure the current state of opinion; they don't make predictions. They also are very poor at deciding who is actually a likely voter.

Yes the Democratic Party somehow didn't connect with certain groups that used to support it. Partly this is because Hillary was not an inspiring candidate and didn't connect. The message was not clear enough that the Democratic Party represents the needs of the average person for economic fairness. But some of Trump's voters may have misled themselves by not paying enough attention to what really mattered, whether this was because they were cultural conservatives, or didn't unpack Trump's promises enough to see the trickle-down pro-billionaire message at its core, or let themselves be deluded into thinking that Hillary was "corrupt" and "crooked" when that was not the case. Or a combination of all three.

Yes, the main responsibility of putting us all in danger now, rests with the voters themselves. Very much so.

[Eric the Green]

(11-12-2016, 10:25 PM)gabrielle Wrote: If the blue states secede from the union it will leave progressive individuals and those from groups who would be victimized in Trump's America--blacks, latinos, Muslims, gays etc--in the dirt.  So yeah, thanks a lot.

It will be time for them to move to blue America.

[Galen]

(11-13-2016, 01:08 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-13-2016, 12:59 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-12-2016, 10:25 PM)gabrielle Wrote: If the blue states secede from the union it will leave progressive individuals and those from groups who would be victimized in Trump's America--blacks, latinos, Muslims, gays etc--in the dirt.  So yeah, thanks a lot.

It will be time for them to move to blue America.

Easier said than done more than likely...expenses and all that. Some people can not easily pack up and move for various reasons.

That before they get taxed in to oblivion for all of "free" shit they hope to receive.  I expect them to go the way of Venezuela in about the same amount of time Chavez and Maduro took to do the job.

[Eric the Green]

(11-13-2016, 01:12 AM)Galen Wrote:

(11-13-2016, 01:08 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-13-2016, 12:59 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-12-2016, 10:25 PM)gabrielle Wrote: If the blue states secede from the union it will leave progressive individuals and those from groups who would be victimized in Trump's America--blacks, latinos, Muslims, gays etc--in the dirt.  So yeah, thanks a lot.

It will be time for them to move to blue America.

Easier said than done more than likely...expenses and all that. Some people can not easily pack up and move for various reasons.

That before they get taxed in to oblivion for all of "free" shit they hope to receive.  I expect them to go the way of Venezuela in about the same amount of time Chavez and Maduro took to do the job.

Gabrielle, none of this would be easy. It's not easy now, and things are going to get much worse now. There's no illusions on that.

Interesting though isn't it. Your concern is valid. However, we blue states have not had much luck helping the soon-to-be victims of Trump's America, have we? The red states have blocked our every move for 36 years and counting. If we stay in the union, there will be no difference in the level of help you get under the Trumps. What we have now is total stalemate and regression. It's only the blue states who provide any help or protection for their residents. If you live in a red state, you are already shit outta luck.

Oh Galen, California has already had its full of all that. We're still doing OK. But it's a big challenge as it is, no doubt. Immigration from down south is slow now, and no doubt Trump will slow it down more. So we'll be ready for a smaller wave from red America.

I hear your cry though, Galen. It looks like you'll have to move too. Oregon will likely come along with us. You might as well move so you don't have to endure all the snowflakes.

[gabrielle]

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.