ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma

[pbrower2a]

Something else to say about race and welfare -- most people getting welfare are white.

There are plenty of messed-up people, and the drug epidemic (especially meth and opiates) will only aggravate the need for welfare -- barring of course some sort of genocide.  Where I live, the dopers are almost exclusively white even though there is a rapidly-growing Hispanic population. Just imagine what dope does to one's ability to hold a job. Just imagine what growing up with doper parents is like. It's hard to trust even well-meaning authority when parents are horrible role models who get taken away by the Big Blue Meanies (the cops) for drug offenses and something that often goes with drugs -- child abuse.

Dopers are of course mixed-up people, which is not to say that they didn't have problems before they started using drugs.  Just imagine the harm their kids get. Will the kids have healthy attitudes for learning good habits and applying themselves to even the most menial of work?

The labor market has become more demanding at every level of skill, and in view of the ultimate competition that Americans will face (not cheap labor in other countries, but robots), there will be need for welfare. We may need the cradle-to-grave welfare system that America has evaded even more than we now think.

[David Horn]

(01-18-2017, 02:00 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 01:16 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-17-2017, 03:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-17-2017, 02:41 PM)Mikebert Wrote:

(01-17-2017, 01:05 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: I'm willing to accept it because I don't pay for the drugs; my employer or the government does. 

No they don't.  They pass it along to you as lower salary.

No they don't. They add it to his hourly cost and mark it up accordingly and pass it on to the costumer. I think he's service related. Service related people aren't viewed as corporate overhead.

Every HR professional will tell you, the total cost of an employee to a company is based on pay and benefits.  Nothing gets passed on,  That's nonsense.  Customers have no vested interest in paying for employee benefits.

Or, to put it another way, everything gets passed on including pay.

Yes, I know that's the conservative mantra, but the real world works entirely on low-cost or best value basis, depending on the good or service.  Both those models contain no calculus for pay and benefits, only being cheaper and better than the competition.

[David Horn]

(01-18-2017, 02:03 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 01:11 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-17-2017, 01:05 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: ... budgets for big pharma companies show most of the cost being the trials necessary for FDA approval.  That's what the Japanese bargain not to pay, but if everyone bargains not to pay them, the drugs won't be developed.  (Which would be fine with me, but not so fine with the people that use them.)

Do you know what orphan drug subsidies are?  They are guarantees against competition for "developing" drugs to treat ailments that affect fewer than 200,000 (?) people.  Big Pharma uses this law as an ATM.  Some drugs, widely in use for years, get cited as a treatment for some other illness.  For example, Remicade has numerous orphan cites -- it was originally developed for rheumatoid arthritis.  The rest are free riders.. 

Don't cry crocodile tears for the pharmaceutical industry; they don't deserve it.

You might want to follow the thread.  I'm arguing to permit reimportation, which would completely undercut big pharma's market splitting strategy.  I agree we should get rid of orphan drug subsidies too - another Bush idea that was bad.

Sorry, but the subsidies are already in place.  So are the guarantees.  But playing along anyway, why would a US drug be cheaper if it's first sent to, say, Canada, then returned to the US for use?  The only reason: the Canadians negotiate drug prices by Province.   In other words, you hate single payer, but want to use someone else's single payer system to save you money.  Do you see the irony there?

[David Horn]

(01-18-2017, 02:06 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 12:38 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-17-2017, 02:51 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-16-2017, 09:50 AM)SomeGuy Wrote:

Quote:Third, if we're going to have a major revamp of the system, why not move to a genuinely free market system, or at least closer to it?

I'd be curious to see what you had in mind.  Not that I am necessarily opposed, mind you.

In an ideal world, the government - or the federal government, at least - would just get out of medical care entirely, limiting its role to safety regulations...

Been there.  Done that.  We have insurance now because the old model quit working when we stop using leeches for treatment.

Seriously, modern medical care is complex and necessarily expensive.  To cover the costs by load sharing (i.e. insurance), everyone needs to be in the game.  A totally voluntary system guarantees failure, because only the sick will want insurance but it will be unaffordable.

Why is this still being discussed at this late date? There is no magic pill to change this.

To the contrary, as discussed before, there are "magic pills" in the sense of inexpensive supplements and dietary and lifestyle strategies that would remove the need for much of the treatment.  But you're uninterested in them because you can get as much treatment as you want at others' expense ...  for now.

At least pbrower uses the cancer preventive.

Just so you know, I've buried family members who believed that nonsense.  Real magic pills will get maximum publicity it they actually work ... but carry on.  Most supplements are neutral in effect, and some improve general health for some people.

[Warren Dew]

(01-18-2017, 03:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 01:55 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 10:12 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-15-2017, 10:58 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Expecting welfare and entitlement recipients to have respect for taxpayers is like expecting slaveowners to have respect for their slaves.

I have gotten some food aid. I show enough respect for taxpayers to not buy sweets (unless you call strawberries, oranges, grapes, or bananas 'sweets') on that aid.

I am also starting vocational rehab even before I can collect SSDI... as a hedge. I might be able to do something compatible with Asperger's at my age. I would rather be a taxpayer.

Trying to get off is good, and not rubbing it in their faces is good.  It would be nice if there were some equivalent to the "thank you for your service" that vets get, but I'm not sure how that would work.

You might try learning a computer scripting language like PHP or Python.  They are relatively easy to learn, and Asperger's is a big plus for programming, due to the perfectionistic tendencies and the ability to focus.  Java is higher end but takes more training.

How about vacations to interesting places, food such as steak and lobster, wine instead of diet colas, nice clothes, a really-good sound system, better housing, and maybe a better car....not to mention being more desirable to women if a straight male? That's how capitalism rewards middle-class and skilled-labor success. I doubt that anyone has a problem with that. Ostentatious display? I'd rather have money in a brokerage account, thank you.

Actually I was going to point out that strawberries are a luxury for most taxpayers, as are most of what you talk about for most of the middle class.  Wine might be an exception since winos seem to be able to afford it.  And, no offense, I suspect the desirability to women is more strongly affected by Asperger's; I'm sure that's why I didn't get married until 40.

Quote:I did some programming years ago in college and loved it. I went to the computer lab around 11PM and left when the computers got shut down for maintenance... and I was surprised that it was 3 AM. That was BASIC. That's how long ago it was. I was able even to create images for a mock-up call-sign screen and such a game as Yahtzee (really simple).

Honestly, learn a modern language, put your resume on LinkedIn, and you'll likely be making $80k in a year.

Quote:The poor will always be with us, and how we treat them (or any other vulnerable people) will say more of our character than will any possessions that we ever get. Anyone of base character can kiss up to the rich-and-powerful. Showing genuine compassion for poor people? Such is the true measure of us all.

Indeed.  Those of true character will donate to charity themselves, rather than trying to force others to do it through taxes at the point of a gun.  And they won't brag about it.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-18-2017, 05:43 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 02:00 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 01:16 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-17-2017, 03:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-17-2017, 02:41 PM)Mikebert Wrote: No they don't.  They pass it along to you as lower salary.

No they don't. They add it to his hourly cost and mark it up accordingly and pass it on to the costumer. I think he's service related. Service related people aren't viewed as corporate overhead.

Every HR professional will tell you, the total cost of an employee to a company is based on pay and benefits.  Nothing gets passed on,  That's nonsense.  Customers have no vested interest in paying for employee benefits.

Or, to put it another way, everything gets passed on including pay.

Yes, I know that's the conservative mantra, but the real world works entirely on low-cost or best value basis, depending on the good or service.  Both those models contain no calculus for pay and benefits, only being cheaper and better than the competition.

Do I use/need health insurance enough to pay the price for it or sacrifice something else that's already being paid for to afford it? The group that's an important real world factor that you've ignored and don't show much sympathy for and often treat me as being one. Sooner or later, you better take my age (year of birth) more seriously because we are probably on the verge of dethroning the hippies and ushering in an era of American pragmatism. I see 50 some progressive Democrats have decided to place themselves on ignore as they symbolically join hands with the stop America from uniting, shifting its focus on middle America and becoming great again.

[Eric the Green]

(01-18-2017, 11:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 05:43 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 02:00 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 01:16 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-17-2017, 03:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: No they don't. They add it to his hourly cost and mark it up accordingly and pass it on to the costumer. I think he's service related. Service related people aren't viewed as corporate overhead.

Every HR professional will tell you, the total cost of an employee to a company is based on pay and benefits.  Nothing gets passed on,  That's nonsense.  Customers have no vested interest in paying for employee benefits.

Or, to put it another way, everything gets passed on including pay.

Yes, I know that's the conservative mantra, but the real world works entirely on low-cost or best value basis, depending on the good or service.  Both those models contain no calculus for pay and benefits, only being cheaper and better than the competition.

Do I use/need health insurance enough to pay the price for it or sacrifice something else that's already being paid for to afford it? The group that's an important real world factor that you've ignored and don't show much sympathy for and often treat me as being one. Sooner or later, you better take my age (year of birth) more seriously because we are probably on the verge of dethroning the hippies and ushering in an era of American pragmatism. I see 50 some progressive Democrats have decided to place themselves on ignore as they symbolically join hands with the stop America from uniting, shifting its focus on middle America and becoming great again.

What you are ushering in, you Xers (allegedly), is an era of American Fascism. God Bless the 50 Democrats who have decided to skip the inauguration of the American Hitler. At least they are showing a modicum of courage, and standing for principle. They are the models of correct behavior during this ridiculous so-called president's reign, however long it lasts (and there's no way to tell). You rightwingers Classic have divided America. You have forced upon us a demonic, extremist ideology of hate, anarchy and deprivation that has ruined our country. You rightwingers Classic are leading our nation into being the opposite of great, and have been for 37 years and counting. Only deceived people like you refuse to see that, blinded as you are by the lens of hate, and your refusal to do your duty to anyone but your own wealth.

And the authors DID warn us that the Xers could well usher in a reign in America of such a leader as we now have got.

[Eric the Green]

[Eric the Green]

(01-18-2017, 09:26 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Indeed.  Those of true character will donate to charity themselves, rather than trying to force others to do it through taxes at the point of a gun.  And they won't brag about it.

Your libertarian economics ideology has ruined America, and will go on ruining America until it dies, and sooner rather than later. I would brag to the hilt if we could have a country which recognized that it's a great priviledge to pay a little more in taxes so that a young child can get medical treatment who would otherwise die. Those of true character will not scapegoat poor people for political gain by pandering to prejudice.

And I don't see that you have any problem with having guns pointed at people.

And the use of the word "charity" is a neat trick too. Without the government "forcing" people to contribute to the things people need for life, the big business moguls simply make them unavailable to average people, unless they are fortunate or greedy and skilled enough to become rich themselves.

Instead of complaining, deceiving and denying help to people, the rich should be happy to support taxes on themselves. Taxes are just what they would be paying anyway to the poor and the needy, if they were doing what it is their duty (and what is in their real self-interest) to do. What difference does it make, then?

The difference is, the rich do not do what is in their own interest. They deceive the middle class and poor into voting for their political henchmen by using false "dependency vs. freedom" slogans to stir up resentment against their fellows, especially other ethnic groups or genders; instead of against themselves where it needs to strike. Divide, deceive and conquer. Trump is their man; he does this the best; the TV-star successor to Reagan who did it the best in the 80s.

Republicans and their wealthy owners should pay and shut up.

[Odin]

(01-18-2017, 10:04 AM)Anthony Wrote: But if the Catholic Church gets involved in this - and remember that we have a Hispanic pope! - it has the potential to destroy the evangelical right's stranglehold on Christianity in American politics (and probably provoke a nasty anti-Catholic backlash not seen in America in nearly a century).  Then, if progressives can merely tone down their reflexive fawning over all the freaks and geeks, there's your prescription - no pun intended since we're talking about health care here - for a Democratic landslide in 2020 (and what more do they want?  They got what they wanted in Obergefell v. Hodges - and even if Roe v. Wade were to be overturned only about 1 out of 10 women live in states that would enact blanket bans on abortion).

I even have a catchy slogan for this campaign:

OUR JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD
THEIR JESUS IS THE SON OF JOHN GALT!

Speaking of John Galt, I'm surprised Paul Ryan hasn't been excommunicated yet given his enthusiastic love for Rand.

[Odin]

(01-18-2017, 04:17 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Something else to say about race and welfare -- most people getting welfare are white.

There are plenty of messed-up people, and the drug epidemic (especially meth and opiates) will only aggravate the need for welfare -- barring of course some sort of genocide.  Where I live, the dopers are almost exclusively white even though there is a rapidly-growing Hispanic population. Just imagine what dope does to one's ability to hold a job. Just imagine what growing up with doper parents is like. It's hard to trust even well-meaning authority when parents are horrible role models who get taken away by the Big Blue Meanies (the cops) for drug offenses and something that often goes with drugs -- child abuse.

Dopers are of course mixed-up people, which is not to say that they didn't have problems before they started using drugs.  Just imagine the harm their kids get. Will the kids have healthy attitudes for learning good habits and applying themselves to even the most menial of work?

The labor market has become more demanding at every level of skill, and in view of the ultimate competition that Americans will face (not cheap labor in other countries, but robots), there will be need for welfare. We may need the cradle-to-grave welfare system that America has evaded even more than we now think.

There is a common stereotype around here about rural whites on public assistance justifying it because "they earned it", all the while ranting about all the lazy black welfare queens.

[Odin]

(01-18-2017, 09:26 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Indeed.  Those of true character will donate to charity themselves, rather than trying to force others to do it through taxes at the point of a gun.  And they won't brag about it.

So we poors can never have "true character" is what you are saying?

[Anthony '58]

(01-19-2017, 07:50 AM)Odin Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 09:26 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Indeed.  Those of true character will donate to charity themselves, rather than trying to force others to do it through taxes at the point of a gun.  And they won't brag about it.

So we poors can never have "true character" is what you are saying?

No - but it what it does mean is that any aid to them must at least carry the appearance/stigma of being "charity" - as packaging health care to the low-income uninsured as "charity care" would do, and preferably funding it in some fashion that can be sold as "regressive."

Speaking of which, how about bringing back the Federal Excise Tax? If it was a good enough to fund the Spanish-American War ... and this time around it can be extended to include an item whose purchase is heavily skewed toward the lowest income groups: Prepaid phone cards.

[Warren Dew]

(01-19-2017, 07:50 AM)Odin Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 09:26 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Indeed.  Those of true character will donate to charity themselves, rather than trying to force others to do it through taxes at the point of a gun.  And they won't brag about it.

So we poors can never have "true character" is what you are saying?

Actually many poor people still donate time or money to charity.

[Warren Dew]

(01-18-2017, 05:50 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 02:06 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 12:38 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-17-2017, 02:51 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-16-2017, 09:50 AM)SomeGuy Wrote: I'd be curious to see what you had in mind.  Not that I am necessarily opposed, mind you.

In an ideal world, the government - or the federal government, at least - would just get out of medical care entirely, limiting its role to safety regulations...

Been there.  Done that.  We have insurance now because the old model quit working when we stop using leeches for treatment.

Seriously, modern medical care is complex and necessarily expensive.  To cover the costs by load sharing (i.e. insurance), everyone needs to be in the game.  A totally voluntary system guarantees failure, because only the sick will want insurance but it will be unaffordable.

Why is this still being discussed at this late date? There is no magic pill to change this.

To the contrary, as discussed before, there are "magic pills" in the sense of inexpensive supplements and dietary and lifestyle strategies that would remove the need for much of the treatment.  But you're uninterested in them because you can get as much treatment as you want at others' expense ...  for now.

At least pbrower uses the cancer preventive.

Just so you know, I've buried family members who believed that nonsense.  Real magic pills will get maximum publicity it they actually work ... but carry on.  Most supplements are neutral in effect, and some improve general health for some people.

Please name the supplement and link to the randomized controlled trial published in a peer reviewed journal showing that it prevented the majority of cases of the disease they died of.  Or, admit you're just not willing to look at the evidence.

[David Horn]

(01-18-2017, 11:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Do I use/need health insurance enough to pay the price for it or sacrifice something else that's already being paid for to afford it? The group that's an important real world factor that you've ignored and don't show much sympathy for and often treat me as being one. Sooner or later, you better take my age (year of birth) more seriously because we are probably on the verge of dethroning the hippies and ushering in an era of American pragmatism. I see 50 some progressive Democrats have decided to place themselves on ignore as they symbolically join hands with the stop America from uniting, shifting its focus on middle America and becoming great again.

Like police protection, healthcare is a massive and interlocking system.  The closer to 100% involvement, the more efficient and effective it is.  That's especially true now, because things like MRIs are expensive and need to be used to justify their existence.  That's the same argument we use for universal security.  Would you like to live in a world where security consisted of a basket of private contracts, with only some people participating, instead of our current system of local, state and national police and investigative services?

[David Horn]

(01-19-2017, 07:50 AM)Odin Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 09:26 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Indeed.  Those of true character will donate to charity themselves, rather than trying to force others to do it through taxes at the point of a gun.  And they won't brag about it.

So we poors can never have "true character" is what you are saying?

Actually, the highest percentage givers are people below the median income.  The rich tend to give, but mainly for things they enjoy or value directly: opera, symphony and ballet companies, and museums, of course.

[David Horn]

(01-19-2017, 12:05 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 05:50 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 02:06 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: To the contrary, as discussed before, there are "magic pills" in the sense of inexpensive supplements and dietary and lifestyle strategies that would remove the need for much of the treatment.  But you're uninterested in them because you can get as much treatment as you want at others' expense ...  for now.

At least pbrower uses the cancer preventive.

Just so you know, I've buried family members who believed that nonsense.  Real magic pills will get maximum publicity it they actually work ... but carry on.  Most supplements are neutral in effect, and some improve general health for some people.

Please name the supplement and link to the randomized controlled trial published in a peer reviewed journal showing that it prevented the majority of cases of the disease they died of.  Or, admit you're just not willing to look at the evidence.

I was talking about the faith given to supplements without any of those tests.  Why not show me one or two that meet your criteria.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-19-2017, 12:24 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 11:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Do I use/need health insurance enough to pay the price for it or sacrifice something else that's already being paid for to afford it? The group that's an important real world factor that you've ignored and don't show much sympathy for and often treat me as being one. Sooner or later, you better take my age (year of birth) more seriously because we are probably on the verge of dethroning the hippies and ushering in an era of American pragmatism. I see 50 some progressive Democrats have decided to place themselves on ignore as they symbolically join hands with the stop America from uniting, shifting its focus on middle America and becoming great again.

Like police protection, healthcare is a massive and interlocking system.  The closer to 100% involvement, the more efficient and effective it is.  That's especially true now, because things like MRIs are expensive and need to be used to justify their existence.  That's the same argument we use for universal security.  Would you like to live in a world where security consisted of a basket of private contracts, with only some people participating, instead of our current system of local, state and national police and investigative services?

Compact disc players and microwave ovens were expensive at first. How many MRI's, CT's,Colonoscopy's and medications would it take to surpass the amount that you pay for healthcare coverage? I'm giving you credit (respect)/cutting you some slack for the amount of years you've worked and financially contributed to the Medicare system that you are enjoying right now. You appear to be willing to give Oden what you have as far as healthcare coverage but would you be willing to share your healthcare and double the amount that you pay in order to accommodate him. I'm ok with contributing a percentage or two for me and any future employees.

We both have worked for many years. We both have owned business's. We both have children. We both have wives. We've both experienced all the crap, the headaches, the heartaches, the ups and downs and the endless list of responsibilities that are associated with all of them. I'm sure you looked forward to the day when the stress's associated with all them would be significantly reduced and you'd be able to kick back and enjoy your golden years like my mother. She deserved it. You deserved it. I'll deserve it too some day.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-18-2017, 03:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 09:59 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 07:56 AM)Odin Wrote:

(01-16-2017, 03:31 PM)The Wonkette Wrote:

(01-15-2017, 10:58 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Expecting welfare and entitlement recipients to have respect for taxpayers is like expecting slaveowners to have respect for their slaves.

That is a very strong statement.  I personally find it offensive to have taxpayers compared to slaves and welfare and entitlement recipients compared to slaveowners.  Most people on welfare want to work, want to get off of welfare.  And comparing taxpayers to slaves?  Really???

I had to respond.

It's the whole white identity politics thing. A lot of conservatives associate public assistance with the myth of the "black welfare queen" and think "hard working white people" are being "exploited" by lazy minorities on welfare.

Consiidering we were talking about Medicare, it obviously nothing to do with race.  As to welfare, most conservatives dislike the use of welfare as a style of life irrespective of race.

I agree with Odin on that one. Anti-welfare is the dog-whistle for white identity racism. Conservatives often claim otherwise, but your own posts Warren earlier revealed this. So do Classic's posts. 

"Welfare as a style of life" is a revealing phrase too. The claim is that welfare creates a dependent style of life. Even though that kind of welfare went away in the 1990s, it is still the leading conservative talking point. Because it scores political points with closet racists and libertarian ideologues.

No, welfare is a protection for all of us against the greedy bosses, who will stop at nothing to fire us over nothing or take away our jobs. We will need it ever-more greatly, and as the Republican power grows, we have less and less protection from the greedy bosses who run our country. And now our new president (whom you voted for) is the leading exponent of this behavior, as exemplified by his favorite phrase, "you're fired!" Not to mention the leading practitioner of race-baiting.

You assume that's what we are doing instead of what we are actually. Now explain why, I called Odin ( a known white poster) a welfare king and associated him with the welfare system (public assistance). Why I've said, welfare is no longer just associated with minorities its now applicable to whites too . Why I told, a white racist that his skin color didn't matter much to me as far as my opinion of him and his ideology.  Who is actually blowing the dog whistle that you claim that we're blowing? Ain't me. I'm not the one making an effort to turn everything into race and drawing support of whites who have a racist view of whites that are similar to those of blacks and other races. I've never called you a racist even though you are associated with a lot of them (minority racists). Rani and I were good friends. What's your thing? Are you trying to start a race war or revolution to over throw our government? What do you think might happen to you if you found yourself stuck in the middle of a race war that you played a role in starting or a revolution of some sort? Do you think the American collective is going to remain idle? Do you think a pissed off racist minority group is going ask if you're a liberal or conservative before they bludgeon you? Dumb people do dumb things, say dumb things, associate themselves with dumb things, go along with dumb things with the hope of achieving something greater or better for themselves which smart people pick up on. Well, we have an idea as far as your amount of national appeal with the latest progressive stunt. You know that I don't care much for you, don't care much for the ideology that you represent or care much for the modern day progressives that you are associated with today. I must admit, I didn't care much for LBJ either. I must also admit, you paint a pretty picture as well. A pretty picture that covers up a lot of shit but unfortunately your pretty picture is unable to hide the stink.