ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma

[Eric the Green]

(01-19-2017, 05:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 03:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 09:59 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 07:56 AM)Odin Wrote:

(01-16-2017, 03:31 PM)The Wonkette Wrote: That is a very strong statement.  I personally find it offensive to have taxpayers compared to slaves and welfare and entitlement recipients compared to slaveowners.  Most people on welfare want to work, want to get off of welfare.  And comparing taxpayers to slaves?  Really???

I had to respond.

It's the whole white identity politics thing. A lot of conservatives associate public assistance with the myth of the "black welfare queen" and think "hard working white people" are being "exploited" by lazy minorities on welfare.

Consiidering we were talking about Medicare, it obviously nothing to do with race.  As to welfare, most conservatives dislike the use of welfare as a style of life irrespective of race.

I agree with Odin on that one. Anti-welfare is the dog-whistle for white identity racism. Conservatives often claim otherwise, but your own posts Warren earlier revealed this. So do Classic's posts. 

"Welfare as a style of life" is a revealing phrase too. The claim is that welfare creates a dependent style of life. Even though that kind of welfare went away in the 1990s, it is still the leading conservative talking point. Because it scores political points with closet racists and libertarian ideologues.

No, welfare is a protection for all of us against the greedy bosses, who will stop at nothing to fire us over nothing or take away our jobs. We will need it ever-more greatly, and as the Republican power grows, we have less and less protection from the greedy bosses who run our country. And now our new president (whom you voted for) is the leading exponent of this behavior, as exemplified by his favorite phrase, "you're fired!" Not to mention the leading practitioner of race-baiting.

You assume that's what we are doing instead of what we are actually. Now explain why, I called Odin ( a known white poster) a welfare king and associated him with the welfare system (public assistance). Why I've said, welfare is no longer just associated with minorities its now applicable to whites too . Why I told, a white racist that his skin color didn't matter much to me as far as my opinion of him and his ideology.  Who is actually blowing the dog whistle that you claim that we're blowing? Ain't me. I'm not the one making an effort to turn everything into race and drawing support of whites who have a racist view of whites that are similar to those of blacks and other races. I've never called you a racist even though you are associated with a lot of them (minority racists). Rani and I were good friends. What's your thing? Are you trying to start a race war or revolution to over throw our government? What do you think might happen to you if you found yourself stuck in the middle of a race war that you played a role in starting or a revolution of some sort? Do you think the American collective is going to remain idle? Do you think a pissed off racist minority group is going ask if you're a liberal or conservative before they bludgeon you? Dumb people do dumb things, say dumb things, associate themselves with dumb things, go along with dumb things with the hope of achieving something greater or better for themselves which smart people pick up on. Well, we have an idea as far as your amount of national appeal with the latest progressive stunt. You know that I don't care much for you, don't care much for the ideology that you represent or care much for the modern day progressives that you are associated with today. I must admit, I didn't care much for LBJ either. I must also admit, you paint a pretty picture as well. A pretty picture that covers up a lot of shit but unfortunately your pretty picture is unable to  hide the stink.

You need to change your picture of whites like us who support the ideology of welfare. Supporting welfare is supporting ourselves and our rights, all of us. We need that protection from the bosses. That is our well-founded opinion. You have frequently referred to other races besides yours as being the lazy folks who need welfare. I assume you know that whites need welfare too.

We need to resist the right-wing takeover of our country and their attempts to dismantle our public social structures, including what little we have left in the government to help our health and welfare. 

I think the blacks and hispanics are going to be increasingly unwilling to take the way they are treated. The ideology you speak for is the main ingredient in this mistreatment, more basic even than the shootings and the unfair jailings and racial profilings. We all need that social support; we can't make it in a society in which people look only after themselves. LBJ's Great Society was just some progress toward that taking care of one another. We need public institutions, not just private "charities." It is not charity to see that society takes care of its people; it's prudent policy. We all benefit when we do this; we all suffer when we don't. Our society has declined because we aren't doing it.

It doesn't matter if you don't care for me. I care for the truth.

[pbrower2a]

(01-19-2017, 05:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 03:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 09:59 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 07:56 AM)Odin Wrote:

(01-16-2017, 03:31 PM)The Wonkette Wrote: That is a very strong statement.  I personally find it offensive to have taxpayers compared to slaves and welfare and entitlement recipients compared to slaveowners.  Most people on welfare want to work, want to get off of welfare.  And comparing taxpayers to slaves?  Really???

I had to respond.

It's the whole white identity politics thing. A lot of conservatives associate public assistance with the myth of the "black welfare queen" and think "hard working white people" are being "exploited" by lazy minorities on welfare.

Consiidering we were talking about Medicare, it obviously nothing to do with race.  As to welfare, most conservatives dislike the use of welfare as a style of life irrespective of race.

I agree with Odin on that one. Anti-welfare is the dog-whistle for white identity racism. Conservatives often claim otherwise, but your own posts Warren earlier revealed this. So do Classic's posts. 

"Welfare as a style of life" is a revealing phrase too. The claim is that welfare creates a dependent style of life. Even though that kind of welfare went away in the 1990s, it is still the leading conservative talking point. Because it scores political points with closet racists and libertarian ideologues.

No, welfare is a protection for all of us against the greedy bosses, who will stop at nothing to fire us over nothing or take away our jobs. We will need it ever-more greatly, and as the Republican power grows, we have less and less protection from the greedy bosses who run our country. And now our new president (whom you voted for) is the leading exponent of this behavior, as exemplified by his favorite phrase, "you're fired!" Not to mention the leading practitioner of race-baiting.

You assume that's what we are doing instead of what we are actually. Now explain why, I called Odin ( a known white poster) a welfare king and associated him with the welfare system (public assistance). Why I've said, welfare is no longer just associated with minorities its now applicable to whites too . Why I told, a white racist that his skin color didn't matter much to me as far as my opinion of him and his ideology.  Who is actually blowing the dog whistle that you claim that we're blowing? Ain't me. I'm not the one making an effort to turn everything into race and drawing support of whites who have a racist view of whites that are similar to those of blacks and other races. I've never called you a racist even though you are associated with a lot of them (minority racists). Rani and I were good friends. What's your thing? Are you trying to start a race war or revolution to over throw our government? What do you think might happen to you if you found yourself stuck in the middle of a race war that you played a role in starting or a revolution of some sort? Do you think the American collective is going to remain idle? Do you think a pissed off racist minority group is going ask if you're a liberal or conservative before they bludgeon you? Dumb people do dumb things, say dumb things, associate themselves with dumb things, go along with dumb things with the hope of achieving something greater or better for themselves which smart people pick up on. Well, we have an idea as far as your amount of national appeal with the latest progressive stunt. You know that I don't care much for you, don't care much for the ideology that you represent or care much for the modern day progressives that you are associated with today. I must admit, I didn't care much for LBJ either. I must also admit, you paint a pretty picture as well. A pretty picture that covers up a lot of shit but unfortunately your pretty picture is unable to  hide the stink.

[/quote]


In a nation with so much racial diversity as America, any 'race war' gets widespread derision as a concept. Those few who seek to start some racial war can expect suppression by the allies that they expect. They will either die in their failed uprising or be sentenced to life in prison or to death. Just think of what happened to the ludicrous Dylann Roof. Racial warfare reminds us too much of horror images collected by the victors after World War II. 

What white people think of white people killing blacks, Hispanics, Asians, or whatever in racist violence applies also to those groups in question for their own bigoted killers.

...If people are peeved about general mistreatment of them, then they are unlikely to see the white race as the cause. Certain white people? Sure. But there are white people of conscience, and the worst oppression of people for race in America turned against the racist agenda of Southern racist reactionaries. But those racists who did the worst, including the bombers of the Eighth Street Baptist Church of Birmingham, Alabama, got infamy for their putrid cause.

The hazard is not ethnicity. The hazard is either a lack of a conscience or extreme fanaticism. If one cannot judge oneself for morals, one's cause for its validity, or one's means for their consequences then one is a menace.

Donald Trump shows many signs of being a disaster as President. He's bossy, thin-skinned, vulgar, insensitive, and cruel. He shows little respect for legal formalities and well-established decencies. His values are a rejection of those of practically a majority. He's a my-way-or-the-highway sort of leader, the sort of person whose authority people either rebel against or evade. 






You are going to wish that even if America got a conservative President it would be someone else, like Romney, Kasich, or Jeb.  Mark my words -- the next four years will be a time of frequent, brash demonstrations of mass dissent on issues from feminism to the environment. Destroy unions and you will get wildcat strikes. If you thought the 1960s were rough for LBJ, those rough times were mostly for one issue: his bungled war in Vietnam. I'm not saying that Donald Trump will get us into a war, but if he does it will not go well. With a President who knows more than the generals, intelligence experts, and diplomats, and who will contradict their counsel if such fails to jibe with his wishes, one can expect disaster once the surprise fades away. Contrast President Obama, who knew his limitations and treated the military and spy chiefs with respect -- and whose star event in foreign policy was to get Osama bin Laden whacked in a gangland-style hit.

This horrible man will stir up anti-American sentiment in places in which it does not now exist. Such is not good for national security.

I promise to not say "I told you so" when any of this happens.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-19-2017, 06:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 05:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 03:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 09:59 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 07:56 AM)Odin Wrote: It's the whole white identity politics thing. A lot of conservatives associate public assistance with the myth of the "black welfare queen" and think "hard working white people" are being "exploited" by lazy minorities on welfare.

Consiidering we were talking about Medicare, it obviously nothing to do with race.  As to welfare, most conservatives dislike the use of welfare as a style of life irrespective of race.

I agree with Odin on that one. Anti-welfare is the dog-whistle for white identity racism. Conservatives often claim otherwise, but your own posts Warren earlier revealed this. So do Classic's posts. 

"Welfare as a style of life" is a revealing phrase too. The claim is that welfare creates a dependent style of life. Even though that kind of welfare went away in the 1990s, it is still the leading conservative talking point. Because it scores political points with closet racists and libertarian ideologues.

No, welfare is a protection for all of us against the greedy bosses, who will stop at nothing to fire us over nothing or take away our jobs. We will need it ever-more greatly, and as the Republican power grows, we have less and less protection from the greedy bosses who run our country. And now our new president (whom you voted for) is the leading exponent of this behavior, as exemplified by his favorite phrase, "you're fired!" Not to mention the leading practitioner of race-baiting.

You assume that's what we are doing instead of what we are actually. Now explain why, I called Odin ( a known white poster) a welfare king and associated him with the welfare system (public assistance). Why I've said, welfare is no longer just associated with minorities its now applicable to whites too . Why I told, a white racist that his skin color didn't matter much to me as far as my opinion of him and his ideology.  Who is actually blowing the dog whistle that you claim that we're blowing? Ain't me. I'm not the one making an effort to turn everything into race and drawing support of whites who have a racist view of whites that are similar to those of blacks and other races. I've never called you a racist even though you are associated with a lot of them (minority racists). Rani and I were good friends. What's your thing? Are you trying to start a race war or revolution to over throw our government? What do you think might happen to you if you found yourself stuck in the middle of a race war that you played a role in starting or a revolution of some sort? Do you think the American collective is going to remain idle? Do you think a pissed off racist minority group is going ask if you're a liberal or conservative before they bludgeon you? Dumb people do dumb things, say dumb things, associate themselves with dumb things, go along with dumb things with the hope of achieving something greater or better for themselves which smart people pick up on. Well, we have an idea as far as your amount of national appeal with the latest progressive stunt. You know that I don't care much for you, don't care much for the ideology that you represent or care much for the modern day progressives that you are associated with today. I must admit, I didn't care much for LBJ either. I must also admit, you paint a pretty picture as well. A pretty picture that covers up a lot of shit but unfortunately your pretty picture is unable to  hide the stink.

You need to change your picture of whites like us who support the ideology of welfare. Supporting welfare is supporting ourselves and our rights, all of us. We need that protection from the bosses. That is our well-founded opinion. You have frequently referred to other races besides yours as being the lazy folks who need welfare. I assume you know that whites need welfare too.

We need to resist the right-wing takeover of our country and their attempts to dismantle our public social structures, including what little we have left in the government to help our health and welfare. 

I think the blacks and hispanics are going to be increasingly unwilling to take the way they are treated. The ideology you speak for is the main ingredient in this mistreatment, more basic even than the shootings and the unfair jailings and racial profilings. We all need that social support; we can't make it in a society in which people look only after themselves. LBJ's Great Society was just some progress toward that taking care of one another. We need public institutions, not just private "charities." It is not charity to see that society takes care of its people; it's prudent policy. We all benefit when we do this; we all suffer when we don't. Our society has declined because we aren't doing it.

It doesn't matter if you don't care for me. I care for the truth.

Pretty hard to change a picture of whites like yourself when you associating the rest of the whites with racism and calling them racists for many years. You created a picture of us to benefit yourselves. A picture that no longer applies to most of us. Now, you keep pointing your finger screaming racist as we are looking at the minority racists behind you. You want truth. Look in a mirror, ask yourself questions about yourself and see how much truth comes out. I don't mind if you continue your efforts to divide and continue shrinking yourselves in the process.

[Eric the Green]

(01-19-2017, 11:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 06:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 05:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 03:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 09:59 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: Consiidering we were talking about Medicare, it obviously nothing to do with race.  As to welfare, most conservatives dislike the use of welfare as a style of life irrespective of race.

I agree with Odin on that one. Anti-welfare is the dog-whistle for white identity racism. Conservatives often claim otherwise, but your own posts Warren earlier revealed this. So do Classic's posts. 

"Welfare as a style of life" is a revealing phrase too. The claim is that welfare creates a dependent style of life. Even though that kind of welfare went away in the 1990s, it is still the leading conservative talking point. Because it scores political points with closet racists and libertarian ideologues.

No, welfare is a protection for all of us against the greedy bosses, who will stop at nothing to fire us over nothing or take away our jobs. We will need it ever-more greatly, and as the Republican power grows, we have less and less protection from the greedy bosses who run our country. And now our new president (whom you voted for) is the leading exponent of this behavior, as exemplified by his favorite phrase, "you're fired!" Not to mention the leading practitioner of race-baiting.

You assume that's what we are doing instead of what we are actually. Now explain why, I called Odin ( a known white poster) a welfare king and associated him with the welfare system (public assistance). Why I've said, welfare is no longer just associated with minorities its now applicable to whites too . Why I told, a white racist that his skin color didn't matter much to me as far as my opinion of him and his ideology.  Who is actually blowing the dog whistle that you claim that we're blowing? Ain't me. I'm not the one making an effort to turn everything into race and drawing support of whites who have a racist view of whites that are similar to those of blacks and other races. I've never called you a racist even though you are associated with a lot of them (minority racists). Rani and I were good friends. What's your thing? Are you trying to start a race war or revolution to over throw our government? What do you think might happen to you if you found yourself stuck in the middle of a race war that you played a role in starting or a revolution of some sort? Do you think the American collective is going to remain idle? Do you think a pissed off racist minority group is going ask if you're a liberal or conservative before they bludgeon you? Dumb people do dumb things, say dumb things, associate themselves with dumb things, go along with dumb things with the hope of achieving something greater or better for themselves which smart people pick up on. Well, we have an idea as far as your amount of national appeal with the latest progressive stunt. You know that I don't care much for you, don't care much for the ideology that you represent or care much for the modern day progressives that you are associated with today. I must admit, I didn't care much for LBJ either. I must also admit, you paint a pretty picture as well. A pretty picture that covers up a lot of shit but unfortunately your pretty picture is unable to  hide the stink.

You need to change your picture of whites like us who support the ideology of welfare. Supporting welfare is supporting ourselves and our rights, all of us. We need that protection from the bosses. That is our well-founded opinion. You have frequently referred to other races besides yours as being the lazy folks who need welfare. I assume you know that whites need welfare too.

We need to resist the right-wing takeover of our country and their attempts to dismantle our public social structures, including what little we have left in the government to help our health and welfare. 

I think the blacks and hispanics are going to be increasingly unwilling to take the way they are treated. The ideology you speak for is the main ingredient in this mistreatment, more basic even than the shootings and the unfair jailings and racial profilings. We all need that social support; we can't make it in a society in which people look only after themselves. LBJ's Great Society was just some progress toward that taking care of one another. We need public institutions, not just private "charities." It is not charity to see that society takes care of its people; it's prudent policy. We all benefit when we do this; we all suffer when we don't. Our society has declined because we aren't doing it.

It doesn't matter if you don't care for me. I care for the truth.

Pretty hard to change a picture of whites like yourself when you associating the rest of the whites with racism and calling them racists for many years. You created a picture of us to benefit yourselves. A picture that no longer applies to most of us. Now, you keep pointing your finger screaming racist as we are looking at the minority racists behind you. You want truth. Look in a mirror, ask yourself questions about yourself and see how much truth comes out. I don't mind if you continue your efforts to divide and continue shrinking yourselves in the process.

If what you claim about yourself is true, then I will not see further posts from you that suggest a link between liberal welfare policies/your taxes and poor people of color. When I don't see that from you, then I will know that the racist dog-whistle does not get a response in you.

That doesn't mean it does not get a response in many other "conservatives." (if not in all)

Meanwhile, the divide has come from the right-wing. I watched PBS Frontline's "Divided States of America" last night, and was reminded of the tactics and angry fanaticism of the people you are siding with, and what they have done over the last decades and especially during Obama's term to force their will on us and shut down the government. I think the divide is pretty well baked in now until one side wins and a consensus is thereby achieved. It may not be a full consensus, but at least the nation will move on. If it moves in a progressive way, the nation will prosper. If it moves in the direction you have supported, it will not. As to who will win, sure your side is winning now. But the nation remains evenly divided, and the winner goes back and forth. You may be disappointed if you think the contest is over.

That's my opinion and my prediction. Your opinion is your right. I'm quite happy for you to post it here.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-20-2017, 12:43 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 11:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 06:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 05:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 03:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I agree with Odin on that one. Anti-welfare is the dog-whistle for white identity racism. Conservatives often claim otherwise, but your own posts Warren earlier revealed this. So do Classic's posts. 

"Welfare as a style of life" is a revealing phrase too. The claim is that welfare creates a dependent style of life. Even though that kind of welfare went away in the 1990s, it is still the leading conservative talking point. Because it scores political points with closet racists and libertarian ideologues.

No, welfare is a protection for all of us against the greedy bosses, who will stop at nothing to fire us over nothing or take away our jobs. We will need it ever-more greatly, and as the Republican power grows, we have less and less protection from the greedy bosses who run our country. And now our new president (whom you voted for) is the leading exponent of this behavior, as exemplified by his favorite phrase, "you're fired!" Not to mention the leading practitioner of race-baiting.

You assume that's what we are doing instead of what we are actually. Now explain why, I called Odin ( a known white poster) a welfare king and associated him with the welfare system (public assistance). Why I've said, welfare is no longer just associated with minorities its now applicable to whites too . Why I told, a white racist that his skin color didn't matter much to me as far as my opinion of him and his ideology.  Who is actually blowing the dog whistle that you claim that we're blowing? Ain't me. I'm not the one making an effort to turn everything into race and drawing support of whites who have a racist view of whites that are similar to those of blacks and other races. I've never called you a racist even though you are associated with a lot of them (minority racists). Rani and I were good friends. What's your thing? Are you trying to start a race war or revolution to over throw our government? What do you think might happen to you if you found yourself stuck in the middle of a race war that you played a role in starting or a revolution of some sort? Do you think the American collective is going to remain idle? Do you think a pissed off racist minority group is going ask if you're a liberal or conservative before they bludgeon you? Dumb people do dumb things, say dumb things, associate themselves with dumb things, go along with dumb things with the hope of achieving something greater or better for themselves which smart people pick up on. Well, we have an idea as far as your amount of national appeal with the latest progressive stunt. You know that I don't care much for you, don't care much for the ideology that you represent or care much for the modern day progressives that you are associated with today. I must admit, I didn't care much for LBJ either. I must also admit, you paint a pretty picture as well. A pretty picture that covers up a lot of shit but unfortunately your pretty picture is unable to  hide the stink.

You need to change your picture of whites like us who support the ideology of welfare. Supporting welfare is supporting ourselves and our rights, all of us. We need that protection from the bosses. That is our well-founded opinion. You have frequently referred to other races besides yours as being the lazy folks who need welfare. I assume you know that whites need welfare too.

We need to resist the right-wing takeover of our country and their attempts to dismantle our public social structures, including what little we have left in the government to help our health and welfare. 

I think the blacks and hispanics are going to be increasingly unwilling to take the way they are treated. The ideology you speak for is the main ingredient in this mistreatment, more basic even than the shootings and the unfair jailings and racial profilings. We all need that social support; we can't make it in a society in which people look only after themselves. LBJ's Great Society was just some progress toward that taking care of one another. We need public institutions, not just private "charities." It is not charity to see that society takes care of its people; it's prudent policy. We all benefit when we do this; we all suffer when we don't. Our society has declined because we aren't doing it.

It doesn't matter if you don't care for me. I care for the truth.

Pretty hard to change a picture of whites like yourself when you associating the rest of the whites with racism and calling them racists for many years. You created a picture of us to benefit yourselves. A picture that no longer applies to most of us. Now, you keep pointing your finger screaming racist as we are looking at the minority racists behind you. You want truth. Look in a mirror, ask yourself questions about yourself and see how much truth comes out. I don't mind if you continue your efforts to divide and continue shrinking yourselves in the process.

If what you claim about yourself is true, then I will not see further posts from you that suggest a link between liberal welfare policies/your taxes and poor people of color. When I don't see that from you, then I will know that the racist dog-whistle does not get a response in you.

That doesn't mean it does not get a response in many other "conservatives." (if not in all)

Meanwhile, the divide has come from the right-wing. I watched PBS Frontline's "Divided States of America" last night, and was reminded of the tactics and angry fanaticism of the people you are siding with, and what they have done over the last decades and especially during Obama's term to force their will on us and shut down the government. I think the divide is pretty well baked in now until one side wins and a consensus is thereby achieved. It may not be a full consensus, but at least the nation will move on. If it moves in a progressive way, the nation will prosper. If it moves in the direction you have supported, it will not. As to who will win, sure your side is winning now. But the nation remains evenly divided, and the winner goes back and forth. You may be disappointed if you think the contest is over.

That's my opinion and my prediction. Your opinion is your right. I'm quite happy for you to post it here.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-20-2017, 12:43 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: If what you claim about yourself is true, then I will not see further posts from you that suggest a link between liberal welfare policies/your taxes and poor people of color. When I don't see that from you, then I will know that the racist dog-whistle does not get a response in you.

That doesn't mean it does not get a response in many other "conservatives." (if not in all)

Meanwhile, the divide has come from the right-wing. I watched PBS Frontline's "Divided States of America" last night, and was reminded of the tactics and angry fanaticism of the people you are siding with, and what they have done over the last decades and especially during Obama's term to force their will on us and shut down the government. I think the divide is pretty well baked in now until one side wins and a consensus is thereby achieved. It may not be a full consensus, but at least the nation will move on. If it moves in a progressive way, the nation will prosper. If it moves in the direction you have supported, it will not. As to who will win, sure your side is winning now. But the nation remains evenly divided, and the winner goes back and forth. You may be disappointed if you think the contest is over.

That's my opinion and my prediction. Your opinion is your right. I'm quite happy for you to post it here.

A link exists between liberal welfare policies, my taxes and the poor people of all color. I cannot deny and exclude the poor people of color from the group to appease you in order to stop your use of racism and its use by others associated with you against me. So, continue the crap you are doing but do so with the understanding that I know what you're doing and I'm going to counter it in a way that begins to turn people against you here. I've done it before and I can do it again. Hint: The hardcore Democratic barrier that once existed no longer exists between us. I eliminated it by revealing the truth to them and changing their views (the way they looked) at people like you.

[pbrower2a]

(Odin)

Quote:Meanwhile, the divide has come from the right-wing. I watched PBS Frontline's "Divided States of America" last night, and was reminded of the tactics and angry fanaticism of the people (Classic X'er is) siding with, and what they have done over the last decades and especially during Obama's term to force their will on us and shut down the government. I think the divide is pretty well baked in now until one side wins and a consensus is thereby achieved. It may not be a full consensus, but at least the nation will move on. If it moves in a progressive way, the nation will prosper. If it moves in the direction you have supported, it will not. As to who will win, sure your side is winning now. But the nation remains evenly divided, and the winner goes back and forth. You may be disappointed if you think the contest is over.

Without question the leadership of Republican Party chose to reject any cooperation or compromise with President Obama. They chose to avoid the usual practice in the legislative process that expects the minority party to try to hone the legislation. The purpose was to gut the authority of the then-majority party. The minority party of the time expected to get everything that it was going to get if it had a majority beyond any challenge.

Today the Republican Party gets almost the sort of power that the Communist Party of China has.... on behalf of people who believe that no human suffering is in excess so long as it turns, indulges, or enforces a profit... with a few scraps for the Religious Right. America becomes a country in which the modern versions of Gilded Age plutocrats, Southern agrarian magnates, and the real-life equivalents of Elmer Gantry. We have a real-life Berzelius Windrip taking an office once held by George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin Roosevelt.

We have 1461 days of what could well be the most dangerous time in American history. At the least, neither Abraham Lincoln nor Jefferson Davis had nukes. We had an ocean between ourselves and both of the demonic powers of the Axis. We face 1461 days in which every joy in life is tainted. The best one can extract from the Trump Presidency is a sort of Schadenfreude in watching a political train-wreck due to the incompetence and extremism of the Republican Party and a horrid President.

[Odin]

(01-19-2017, 12:02 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Actually many poor people still donate time or money to charity.

(01-19-2017, 12:28 PM)David Horn Wrote: Actually, the highest percentage givers are people below the median income.  The rich tend to give, but mainly for things they enjoy or value directly: opera, symphony and ballet companies, and museums, of course.

Oh, I know know that, but poor people helping other poor people doesn't really help poor people get not-poor. To do that you need more money going from the rich to the poor than there is going from the poor to the rich from capitalist exploitation, otherwise it is meaningless PR virtue signalling.

[Odin]

(01-20-2017, 04:46 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: (Odin)

Quote:Meanwhile, the divide has come from the right-wing. I watched PBS Frontline's "Divided States of America" last night, and was reminded of the tactics and angry fanaticism of the people (Classic X'er is) siding with, and what they have done over the last decades and especially during Obama's term to force their will on us and shut down the government. I think the divide is pretty well baked in now until one side wins and a consensus is thereby achieved. It may not be a full consensus, but at least the nation will move on. If it moves in a progressive way, the nation will prosper. If it moves in the direction you have supported, it will not. As to who will win, sure your side is winning now. But the nation remains evenly divided, and the winner goes back and forth. You may be disappointed if you think the contest is over.

Without question the leadership of Republican Party chose to reject any cooperation or compromise with President Obama. They chose to avoid the usual practice in the legislative process that expects the minority party to try to hone the legislation. The purpose was to gut the authority of the then-majority party. The minority party of the time expected to get everything that it was going to get if it had a majority beyond any challenge.

Today the Republican Party gets almost the sort of power that the Communist Party of China has.... on behalf of people who believe that no human suffering is in excess so long as it turns, indulges, or enforces a profit... with a few scraps for the Religious Right. America becomes a country in which the modern versions of Gilded Age plutocrats, Southern agrarian magnates, and the real-life equivalents of Elmer Gantry. We have a real-life Berzelius Windrip taking an office once held by George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin Roosevelt.

We have 1461 days of what could well be the most dangerous time in American history. At the least, neither Abraham Lincoln nor Jefferson Davis had nukes. We had an ocean between ourselves and both of the demonic powers of the Axis. We face 1461 days in which every joy in life is tainted. The best one can extract from the Trump Presidency is a sort of Schadenfreude in watching a political train-wreck due to the incompetence and extremism of the Republican Party and a horrid President.

This election has showed that the greatest ally of the Right is the weakness and incoherence of the Left. The mix of turnout problems and pet-issue-ism is killing us.

[pbrower2a]

Resisting President Trump and the Reactionary Party will require courage much like that of those who resisted segregationism. We are in for unhappy times.

We resist the tyranny of someone who will act at least as despotically as George III. Only thing -- Donald Trump is elected... sort of.

It may be ironic, but we may have to limit the power of government just to prevent horrific evil.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-20-2017, 12:06 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 11:24 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Resisting President Trump and the Reactionary Party will require courage much like that of those who resisted segregationism. We are in for unhappy times.

We resist the tyranny of someone who will act at least as despotically as George III. Only thing -- Donald Trump is elected... sort of.

It may be ironic, but we may have to limit the power of government just to prevent horrific evil.

This is beyond party. The threat is civilizational. A pathogen has entered into our political system. It is of foreign origin. The pathogen is Duginism. Duginism is a shifty beast. It is a beast that was created from strains that evolved from Marxist-Leninism, Stalinism and Fascism. The strains merged and for "good" (bad) measure they also adopted various ancient Siberian shamanistic, Confucian and various other anti-Western pieces of DNA. All of this occurred while the West was barking up other trees. In the West, we remained fixated on the threats of the previous century - Soviet Communism, Nazism and Islamic Terrorism. In that construct, Westerners on the Right feared Soviet Communism infiltrating the Western Left, meanwhile, Westerners on the Left feared Nazism infiltrating the Western Right. Everyone feared Islamic Terrorism.

Over yonder, across the pond, the evil was brewing. After the reputed "fall of the Soviet Union" and with the concurrent Chinese "Socialism with Capitalist Characteristics" of Deng Xiao Ping, the substrate for the new pathogen was ready. The now CIS turned East. Dugin showed up on the scene, absolutely at the right time and place. The scene was set for Eurasianism. The 90s brought the specter of of The Trans-Asian Axis, a precursor to the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. Collectively, both Russia and China could have access to liebensraum that Hitler could have only dreamed of. Initially the conquest would be via soft power. Along the way the Trans-Asian Axis morphed into the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. Later, it would involve war. The people of Crimea and Donbas now know this all too well. Now, the people of SE Asia and the South China Sea arena are also waking up to it. In the Baltics and Central Europe, fear of it is in the air. It .... THE FOURTH REICH.

It remains to be seen if this pathogen will truly take root here in the West, making our lands into Vichy or Quisling vassal states. But there can be no doubt that the pathogen is now here. The oceans do not afford any protection.

Who/what represents the threat to our civilization? It's not you or me or anyone else who is willing to fight/die defending America. You're right, the world has changed which means we have to change in order position ourselves to meet the challenges of a new world order that will be opposed to us and seeking to destroy our civilization and other civilizations that are closely related to us. The so-called free world.

[Warren Dew]

(01-19-2017, 12:30 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 12:05 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 05:50 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-18-2017, 02:06 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: To the contrary, as discussed before, there are "magic pills" in the sense of inexpensive supplements and dietary and lifestyle strategies that would remove the need for much of the treatment.  But you're uninterested in them because you can get as much treatment as you want at others' expense ...  for now.

At least pbrower uses the cancer preventive.

Just so you know, I've buried family members who believed that nonsense.  Real magic pills will get maximum publicity it they actually work ... but carry on.  Most supplements are neutral in effect, and some improve general health for some people.

Please name the supplement and link to the randomized controlled trial published in a peer reviewed journal showing that it prevented the majority of cases of the disease they died of.  Or, admit you're just not willing to look at the evidence.

I was talking about the faith given to supplements without any of those tests.  Why not show me one or two that meet your criteria.

Now that you seem willing to take a look, sure.  Here is a writeup I've previously done on the supplement that prevents 77% of cancer.  The trial included only women over 50, but there's no reason not to believe that it would work for men, too.  A link to the peer reviewed article in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition is in the footnotes of my writeup at:

http://psychohist.livejournal.com/67372.html

Illness prevention using off patent supplements don't get "maximum publicity" because, under the current health care regime, there isn't a lot of money to be made from such supplements or from keeping people from getting sick, so there's little funding either for the trials that show the supplements are effective, or for the publicity campaigns needed to make the general population aware of them.  Obamacare actually provides a perverse incentive to avoid health insurers' publicizing these benefits since profits are limited to a percentage of medical costs, so effective preventive treatment, which reduces medical costs, also reduce allowed profit.

Making people responsible for their own health care costs, incidentally getting rid of the Obamacare regulations, would result in a much more price competitive market for health insurance, and would thus encourage insurers to facilitate inexpensive prevention mechanisms, such as this supplement, to cut the costs associated with treatment of the preventable conditions.  People who chose to manage their own medical care using fee for service would also have a bigger incentive to learn about and use such supplements, so word might get around better for that reason as well.

[Eric the Green]

Taking away health coverage, as your free enterprise, status-quo approach decrees, would not help foster preventive care. Requiring that preventive care be part of insurance coverage, as Obamacare does at least in part, is the answer; just as much as the answer is to support and use supplements and other holistic health methods that foster people taking care of their own health. As President Clinton reminded us, health care costs go down as self-care rises.

[Warren Dew]

As noted in my post, Obamacare actively disincentivizes dissemination of information on effective preventive care.

Agreed that increased self care is the answer. That of course implies decreased government intervention and decreased reliance on employer provided care.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-20-2017, 09:16 AM)Odin Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 04:46 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: (Odin)

Quote:Meanwhile, the divide has come from the right-wing. I watched PBS Frontline's "Divided States of America" last night, and was reminded of the tactics and angry fanaticism of the people (Classic X'er is) siding with, and what they have done over the last decades and especially during Obama's term to force their will on us and shut down the government. I think the divide is pretty well baked in now until one side wins and a consensus is thereby achieved. It may not be a full consensus, but at least the nation will move on. If it moves in a progressive way, the nation will prosper. If it moves in the direction you have supported, it will not. As to who will win, sure your side is winning now. But the nation remains evenly divided, and the winner goes back and forth. You may be disappointed if you think the contest is over.

Without question the leadership of Republican Party chose to reject any cooperation or compromise with President Obama. They chose to avoid the usual practice in the legislative process that expects the minority party to try to hone the legislation. The purpose was to gut the authority of the then-majority party. The minority party of the time expected to get everything that it was going to get if it had a majority beyond any challenge.

Today the Republican Party gets almost the sort of power that the Communist Party of China has.... on behalf of people who believe that no human suffering is in excess so long as it turns, indulges, or enforces a profit... with a few scraps for the Religious Right. America becomes a country in which the modern versions of Gilded Age plutocrats, Southern agrarian magnates, and the real-life equivalents of Elmer Gantry. We have a real-life Berzelius Windrip taking an office once held by George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin Roosevelt.

We have 1461 days of what could well be the most dangerous time in American history. At the least, neither Abraham Lincoln nor Jefferson Davis had nukes. We had an ocean between ourselves and both of the demonic powers of the Axis. We face 1461 days in which every joy in life is tainted. The best one can extract from the Trump Presidency is a sort of Schadenfreude in watching a political train-wreck due to the incompetence and extremism of the Republican Party and a horrid President.

This election has showed that the greatest ally of the Right is the weakness and incoherence of the Left. The mix of turnout problems and pet-issue-ism is killing us.

Well, as you're watching TV and watching the ugly images of yourselves being displayed live right in front of all of us for all to see, you shouldn't be proud of what you are seeing and be thankful that you weren't there talking part in the foolishness. What do you expect from a group that's focused on different wants/goals that has no chance of stopping Trump from becoming president with one million supporters in town? I assume one million supporters coming in town to see their president could over shadow and overwhelm a few thousand anti-Trump supporters.

[Eric the Green]

(01-20-2017, 03:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 12:43 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: If what you claim about yourself is true, then I will not see further posts from you that suggest a link between liberal welfare policies/your taxes and poor people of color. When I don't see that from you, then I will know that the racist dog-whistle does not get a response in you.

That doesn't mean it does not get a response in many other "conservatives." (if not in all)

Meanwhile, the divide has come from the right-wing. I watched PBS Frontline's "Divided States of America" last night, and was reminded of the tactics and angry fanaticism of the people you are siding with, and what they have done over the last decades and especially during Obama's term to force their will on us and shut down the government. I think the divide is pretty well baked in now until one side wins and a consensus is thereby achieved. It may not be a full consensus, but at least the nation will move on. If it moves in a progressive way, the nation will prosper. If it moves in the direction you have supported, it will not. As to who will win, sure your side is winning now. But the nation remains evenly divided, and the winner goes back and forth. You may be disappointed if you think the contest is over.

That's my opinion and my prediction. Your opinion is your right. I'm quite happy for you to post it here.

A link exists between liberal welfare policies, my taxes and the poor people of all color. I cannot deny and exclude the poor people of color from the group to appease you in order to stop your use of racism and its use by others associated with you against me. So, continue the crap you are doing but do so with the understanding that I know what you're doing and I'm going to counter it in a way that begins to turn people against you here. I've done it before and I can do it again. Hint: The hardcore Democratic barrier that once existed no longer exists between us. I eliminated it by revealing the truth to them and changing their views (the way they looked) at people like you.

Good luck with that. I can't speak for others. But by admitting that you cannot deny the link "between liberal welfare policies, my taxes and the poor people of all color," you confirm your own racism, and others and well as myself will use it against you and "others associated with you" effectively.

If you choose, you and others can embrace instead a better balance between the virtues of self-reliance and the virtues of interdependence and civic responsibility, and not respond to racist dog-whistle delusions. If you deny the link between "poor people of color" and "liberal welfare policies and my taxes," then you are not vulnerable to charges of racism. It's up to you.

[Eric the Green]

(01-20-2017, 02:48 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 09:16 AM)Odin Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 04:46 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: (Odin)

Quote:Meanwhile, the divide has come from the right-wing. I watched PBS Frontline's "Divided States of America" last night, and was reminded of the tactics and angry fanaticism of the people (Classic X'er is) siding with, and what they have done over the last decades and especially during Obama's term to force their will on us and shut down the government. I think the divide is pretty well baked in now until one side wins and a consensus is thereby achieved. It may not be a full consensus, but at least the nation will move on. If it moves in a progressive way, the nation will prosper. If it moves in the direction you have supported, it will not. As to who will win, sure your side is winning now. But the nation remains evenly divided, and the winner goes back and forth. You may be disappointed if you think the contest is over.

Without question the leadership of Republican Party chose to reject any cooperation or compromise with President Obama. They chose to avoid the usual practice in the legislative process that expects the minority party to try to hone the legislation. The purpose was to gut the authority of the then-majority party. The minority party of the time expected to get everything that it was going to get if it had a majority beyond any challenge.

Today the Republican Party gets almost the sort of power that the Communist Party of China has.... on behalf of people who believe that no human suffering is in excess so long as it turns, indulges, or enforces a profit... with a few scraps for the Religious Right. America becomes a country in which the modern versions of Gilded Age plutocrats, Southern agrarian magnates, and the real-life equivalents of Elmer Gantry. We have a real-life Berzelius Windrip taking an office once held by George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin Roosevelt.

We have 1461 days of what could well be the most dangerous time in American history. At the least, neither Abraham Lincoln nor Jefferson Davis had nukes. We had an ocean between ourselves and both of the demonic powers of the Axis. We face 1461 days in which every joy in life is tainted. The best one can extract from the Trump Presidency is a sort of Schadenfreude in watching a political train-wreck due to the incompetence and extremism of the Republican Party and a horrid President.

This election has showed that the greatest ally of the Right is the weakness and incoherence of the Left. The mix of turnout problems and pet-issue-ism is killing us.

Well, as you're watching TV and watching the ugly images of yourselves being displayed live right in front of all of us for all to see, you shouldn't be proud of what you are seeing and be thankful that you weren't there talking part in the foolishness. What do you expect from a group that's focused on different wants/goals that has no chance of stopping Trump from becoming president with one million supporters in town? I assume one million supporters coming in town to see their president could over shadow and overwhelm a few thousand anti-Trump supporters.

What I remember is that as soon as Obama was elected, the Tea Party rabble loudly insulted and resisted him with street protests, and organized candidates for elections, and they handicapped progressives in the 2010 elections for the foreseeable future. The Left now must do similar things. Not with the same hatred and delusions, but with the truth and the passion for justice that has always fueled Left movements. And what I see is advocates of various causes joining together. Your numbers are wrong, but it's true we cannot stop Trump from becoming president. It will be up to him how much fuel he gives to us to use against him, and how effective the Left will be in dethroning him if it happens. I know it will take a lot of fuel, because most Republicans have little respect for the law or the constitution, but only in getting their way.

[Eric the Green]

(01-20-2017, 02:35 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: As noted in my post, Obamacare actively disincentivizes dissemination of information on effective preventive care.

Agreed that increased self care is the answer.  That of course implies decreased government intervention and decreased reliance on employer provided care.

I don't agree that Obamacare does that. Increased self-care does not "of course" imply decreased government intervention and decreased reliance on employer provided care." Most people cannot afford health care without insurance regulated by or provided by the state. Libertarian economics is wrong. Reaganomics is wrong. Neo-liberalism or whatever else you call it is wrong. Free enterprise alone does not work; never did and never will. Reverting to the situation before Obamacare will just be reverting to the crisis in which people and businesses alike were going bankrupt and going to the cemetery before their time.

It is the health insurance industry that profits from more people being sick. Real health care will decrease sickness and will bring down costs with preventive and holistic care and Western medicine when needed, made available to all with affordable insurance guided by or provided by the government. I hope someday it can be established.

[Eric the Green]

(01-20-2017, 03:51 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 03:17 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 02:35 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: As noted in my post, Obamacare actively disincentivizes dissemination of information on effective preventive care.

Agreed that increased self care is the answer.  That of course implies decreased government intervention and decreased reliance on employer provided care.

I don't agree that Obamacare does that. Increased self-care does not "of course" imply decreased government intervention and decreased reliance on employer provided care." Most people cannot afford health care without insurance regulated by or provided by the state. Libertarian economics is wrong. Reaganomics is wrong. Neo-liberalism or whatever else you call it is wrong. Free enterprise alone does not work; never did and never will. Reverting to the situation before Obamacare will just be reverting to the crisis in which people and businesses alike were going bankrupt and going to the cemetery before their time.

It is the health insurance industry that profits from more people being sick. Real health care will decrease sickness and will bring down costs with preventive and holistic care and Western medicine when needed, made available to all with affordable insurance guided by or provided by the government. I hope someday it can be established.

It's not the insurance companies who profit from illness it's a subset of the care providers. The insurance companies want you to pay your premiums but make no claims. That's why they make it so painful to have actual claims and why they deny or reduce claims. Meanwhile, certain providers (especially ones that don't take Medicare and who are very selective about which insurance plans they accept) rake it in. Now to be fair, I know some providers who do take Medicare and are being short paid by insurance - they are not exactly raking it in.

The insurance companies jack up premiums to the hilt. As for providers, I don't think doctors are necessarily greedy, and medicare and insurance companies tamper it down. But some doctors are very wealthy, and hospitals charge too much unless restrained. So it's a mixed bag with them.

[Warren Dew]

(01-20-2017, 03:51 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 03:17 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 02:35 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: As noted in my post, Obamacare actively disincentivizes dissemination of information on effective preventive care.

Agreed that increased self care is the answer.  That of course implies decreased government intervention and decreased reliance on employer provided care.

I don't agree that Obamacare does that. Increased self-care does not "of course" imply decreased government intervention and decreased reliance on employer provided care." Most people cannot afford health care without insurance regulated by or provided by the state. Libertarian economics is wrong. Reaganomics is wrong. Neo-liberalism or whatever else you call it is wrong. Free enterprise alone does not work; never did and never will. Reverting to the situation before Obamacare will just be reverting to the crisis in which people and businesses alike were going bankrupt and going to the cemetery before their time.

It is the health insurance industry that profits from more people being sick. Real health care will decrease sickness and will bring down costs with preventive and holistic care and Western medicine when needed, made available to all with affordable insurance guided by or provided by the government. I hope someday it can be established.

It's not the insurance companies who profit from illness it's a subset of the care providers. The insurance companies want you to pay your premiums but make no claims. That's why they make it so painful to have actual claims and why they deny or reduce claims. Meanwhile, certain providers (especially ones that don't take Medicare and who are very selective about which insurance plans they accept) rake it in. Now to be fair, I know some providers who do take Medicare and are being short paid by insurance - they are not exactly raking it in.

I agree with respect to the care providers, and I agree that's how it used to work - and should work - with insurance companies.  However, Obamacare limited insurance company profits to a percentage of medical payouts, giving the insurance companies an incentive to increase overall costs as well.