ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma

[Eric the Green]

Republicans offer a choice for health care: Tums, or Advil. Or some good soup.

[Marypoza]

(03-01-2017, 03:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-01-2017, 03:44 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(03-01-2017, 02:31 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-01-2017, 01:18 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(03-01-2017, 05:11 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Unfortunately, if it goes, it will only be replaced by a private Republican system.Obamacare was

-- supposed to get rid of the single payor argument for good. "Oh look! We got this crap! Who needs single payor?"
The repugs will come up with something even more crappy, which will just beg for single payor

Maybe. Unless people were to say, we've got ACA, but it's not good enough; we need further progress toward single payer.

Quote:The most insidious thing about obummercrap, which nobody seems to want to talk about, is that it forces you to buy something whether you can afford to or not (which is why most folx have these crappy plans with sky high deductibles, so they are basically still fronting their own health care, except now they are also throwing away $x/month to the insurance companies, but l digress) This sets a dangerous precedent. For instance: a common item that many budget planners tell folx in need of budget help to cut is cable. Given these Owellian times we are entering, what if Big Brother, um l mean Congress passes a law that everybody is required to have cable/internet, whether they can afford it or not. Since most cable companies are also internet providers, well, big windfall dontcha think? What if ppl were required to have a phone, & not just your cheapo run of the mill phone, but say an i-shit? There was a thread awhile back where souped up hitech rides were being discussed & l said l would be driving under the radar in my beat up old school rides. M&L said no, l would be ride sharing, or hitching rides or some such, iow, l would not be allowed to drive my low tech old schools & neither would anybody else be allowed to drive theirs.  Keep in mind, nice cars, cable, i-shits.. like health care these are things most of us want, but not everybody can afford. Then Congress passes laws forcing everybody to buy them  

Which is why, even tho l would much rather see obummercrap razed to the ground, l would be happy if the Donald simply makes it optional. The ppl who are getting their refunds taken from them are the ones that need it the most

Eric Wrote: Given America's mindset, single payer may be decades away, at least. Unless the voters wise up in the 2020s.

-- single payer could emerge from the 4 T

Eric Wrote:Or, I suppose, since Medicare was passed in the 1960s, perhaps single payer will come in the late 2040s Awakening, when Uranus the rebel planet returns to Virgo the sign of health, where it was in the sixties.

Real progress is rare in America, so it's wise not to expect too much, and to settle for what we can get.

-- makes sense. The Millies, like the GIs are a civic generation, so once they are running things they will probably lower the Medicare age to 0, if it hasn't been already

The Donald does nothing right, ever, or at all. Or as George Carlin would say, he doesn't "care about you, at all, at all, at all!"

-- agreed, but that's beside the point l was making

Well... you did say that you hoped The Donald would ditch Obama's "care."  "l would be happy if the Donald simply makes it optional"

No, if HE does it, it won't be right  

-- actually l was referring to the Carlin thing but, whatever. Yeah, the Donald could f it up

Eri Wrote:

Quote:

Quote:Health care is not cable TV; it's a necessity.

-- my point is if the Govt can force you to buy 1 thing, what to stop it from forcing you to buy other stuff? I agree health care is a right, a necessity, & l think if the Govt is going to insist on everybody having it then they should provide it instead forcing ppl to pony up hard earned $ into some f-ing ponzi scheme     but hey l'm funny like that

That would be better, but we still have to pay one way or another.

-- well there's Rags' VAT. Or Bernie's Wall St tax. Or how about legalizing the country's #1 cash crop & taxing it? Or we don't have to tax anything or anybody- simply redirect $ from those 2 black holes called Iraq & Afghanistan into an expanded Medicare for all

[Eric the Green]

(03-01-2017, 04:06 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(03-01-2017, 03:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-01-2017, 03:44 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(03-01-2017, 02:31 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-01-2017, 01:18 PM)Marypoza Wrote: -- supposed to get rid of the single payor argument for good. "Oh look! We got this crap! Who needs single payor?"
The repugs will come up with something even more crappy, which will just beg for single payor

Maybe. Unless people were to say, we've got ACA, but it's not good enough; we need further progress toward single payer.

Quote:The most insidious thing about obummercrap, which nobody seems to want to talk about, is that it forces you to buy something whether you can afford to or not (which is why most folx have these crappy plans with sky high deductibles, so they are basically still fronting their own health care, except now they are also throwing away $x/month to the insurance companies, but l digress) This sets a dangerous precedent. For instance: a common item that many budget planners tell folx in need of budget help to cut is cable. Given these Owellian times we are entering, what if Big Brother, um l mean Congress passes a law that everybody is required to have cable/internet, whether they can afford it or not. Since most cable companies are also internet providers, well, big windfall dontcha think? What if ppl were required to have a phone, & not just your cheapo run of the mill phone, but say an i-shit? There was a thread awhile back where souped up hitech rides were being discussed & l said l would be driving under the radar in my beat up old school rides. M&L said no, l would be ride sharing, or hitching rides or some such, iow, l would not be allowed to drive my low tech old schools & neither would anybody else be allowed to drive theirs.  Keep in mind, nice cars, cable, i-shits.. like health care these are things most of us want, but not everybody can afford. Then Congress passes laws forcing everybody to buy them  

Which is why, even tho l would much rather see obummercrap razed to the ground, l would be happy if the Donald simply makes it optional. The ppl who are getting their refunds taken from them are the ones that need it the most



-- single payer could emerge from the 4 T


-- makes sense. The Millies, like the GIs are a civic generation, so once they are running things they will probably lower the Medicare age to 0, if it hasn't been already

The Donald does nothing right, ever, or at all. Or as George Carlin would say, he doesn't "care about you, at all, at all, at all!"

-- agreed, but that's beside the point l was making

Well... you did say that you hoped The Donald would ditch Obama's "care."  "l would be happy if the Donald simply makes it optional"

No, if HE does it, it won't be right  

-- actually l was referring to the Carlin thing but, whatever. Yeah, the Donald could f it up

Eri Wrote:

Quote:

Quote:Health care is not cable TV; it's a necessity.

-- my point is if the Govt can force you to buy 1 thing, what to stop it from forcing you to buy other stuff? I agree health care is a right, a necessity, & l think if the Govt is going to insist on everybody having it then they should provide it instead forcing ppl to pony up hard earned $ into some f-ing ponzi scheme     but hey l'm funny like that

That would be better, but we still have to pay one way or another.

-- well there's Rags' VAT. Or Bernie's Wall St tax. Or how about legalizing the country's #1 cash crop & taxing it? Or we don't have to tax anything or anybody- simply redirect $ from those 2 black holes called Iraq & Afghanistan into an expanded Medicare for all

All possibilities, but like I told Rags, the payroll tax has the advantage that people are earning the coverage, which makes it more acceptable in a nation of trickle-down welfare-haters. And in the case of Medicare, enrollees also pay quite a lot directly now to get Medicare Part B and maybe other Parts too. Medicare isn't much without Part B.

Oh, and the Carlin thing was not beside the point, it IS the point

[Ragnarök_62]

(03-01-2017, 09:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: All possibilities, but like I told Rags, the payroll tax has the advantage that people are earning the coverage, which makes it more acceptable in a nation of trickle-down welfare-haters. And in the case of Medicare, enrollees also pay quite a lot directly now to get Medicare Part B and maybe other Parts too. Medicare isn't much without Part B.

Oh, and the Carlin thing was not beside the point, it IS the point

The payroll tax falls only on people who work. R U suggesting a graduated payroll tax or leave it like it is now?  Now , if you do that than all income is subject to the new payroll tax.  I don't think only workers should pay this because lots of 'em make a lot less than people who do not work. Now, if you're talking rent income, capital gains income, interest income, and what the hell all income gets taxed. I do not want to see those great big fat juicy pigs like Soros and the Kochs paying nothing. Where's there's pigs, there's bacon, Eric.  OK?

[Eric the Green]

(03-01-2017, 10:30 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(03-01-2017, 09:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: All possibilities, but like I told Rags, the payroll tax has the advantage that people are earning the coverage, which makes it more acceptable in a nation of trickle-down welfare-haters. And in the case of Medicare, enrollees also pay quite a lot directly now to get Medicare Part B and maybe other Parts too. Medicare isn't much without Part B.

Oh, and the Carlin thing was not beside the point, it IS the point

The payroll tax falls only on people who work. R U suggesting a graduated payroll tax or leave it like it is now?  Now , if you do that than all income is subject to the new payroll tax.  I don't think only workers should pay this because lots of 'em make a lot less than people who do not work. Now, if you're talking rent income, capital gains income, interest income, and what the hell all income gets taxed. I do not want to see those great big fat juicy pigs like Soros and the Kochs paying nothing. Where's there's pigs, there's bacon, Eric.  OK?

That makes sense.

[David Horn]

Why bother discussing this at all. The GOP is split, with the repeal-only camp having the votes needed to stop anything like 'replace' or even 'improve'. This will be a long time being addressed, and the ensuing mess will be what drives an eventual solution, whatever that will be ... if anything.

[Marypoza]

(03-02-2017, 10:28 AM)David Horn Wrote: Why bother discussing this at all.  The GOP is split, with the repeal-only camp having the votes needed to stop anything like 'replace' or even 'improve'.  This will be a long time being addressed, and the ensuing mess will be what drives an eventual solution, whatever that will be ... if anything.

-- don't hurt to get our ducks in a row now, so that when the time comes we'll be ready

[Ragnarök_62]

(03-02-2017, 10:28 AM)David Horn Wrote: Why bother discussing this at all.  The GOP is split, with the repeal-only camp having the votes needed to stop anything like 'replace' or even 'improve'.  This will be a long time being addressed, and the ensuing mess will be what drives an eventual solution, whatever that will be ... if anything.

Quote:Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.
--Albert Einstein

[Bob Butler 54]

CNN has the American Medical Association opposes GOP health care bill.  CBS has AARP opposes health care bill.

Anyone coming out for it outside of the GOP elite?

[Bob Butler 54]

CNN has listed Groups lining up in opposition to GOP health care plan.

• The AARP
  
• American Hospital Association
  
• Federation of American Hospitals
  
• America's Essential Hospitals
  
• Families USA
  
• The American Medical Association
  
• American Nurses Association
  
• American College of Physicians
  
• National Nurses United
  
• National Physicians Alliance
  
• Association of American Physicians and Surgeons
  
• Cato Institute
  
• Americans for Prosperity
  
• FreedomWorks
  
• Tea Party Patriots
  
• MoveOn.org
  
• American Bridge
  
• Center for American Progress
  
• Our Revolution
  

Quite a mix...

[The Wonkette]

(03-09-2017, 12:46 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: CNN has listed Groups lining up in opposition to GOP health care plan.

• The AARP
  
• American Hospital Association
  
• Federation of American Hospitals
  
• America's Essential Hospitals
  
• Families USA
  
• The American Medical Association
  
• American Nurses Association
  
• American College of Physicians
  
• National Nurses United
  
• National Physicians Alliance
  
• Association of American Physicians and Surgeons
  
• Cato Institute
  
• Americans for Prosperity
  
• FreedomWorks
  
• Tea Party Patriots
  
• MoveOn.org
  
• American Bridge
  
• Center for American Progress
  
• Our Revolution
  

Quite a mix...

Oh, but that is fake "lamestream media" news, right?

[David Horn]

(03-09-2017, 12:34 PM)The Wonkette Wrote:

(03-09-2017, 12:46 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: CNN has listed Groups lining up in opposition to GOP health care plan.

• The AARP
  
• American Hospital Association
  
• Federation of American Hospitals
  
• America's Essential Hospitals
  
• Families USA
  
• The American Medical Association
  
• American Nurses Association
  
• American College of Physicians
  
• National Nurses United
  
• National Physicians Alliance
  
• Association of American Physicians and Surgeons
  
• Cato Institute
  
• Americans for Prosperity
  
• FreedomWorks
  
• Tea Party Patriots
  
• MoveOn.org
  
• American Bridge
  
• Center for American Progress
  
• Our Revolution
  

Quite a mix...

Oh, but that is fake "lamestream media" news, right?

Good dig, but the scary part, or maybe the saving grace, is the diversity of the list.  Move any direction, and part of the list goes into Battle Stations mode.  Sit in the middle, and the votes aren't there, but the rage builds even further.  The Repeal Now crowd is getting some traction, based solely on embarrassment over repudiating earlier votes, but it's unclear that this is enough to trigger action.

So far, it's a comedy with tragic potential. 

[Eric the Green]

The best thing that can happen with most-anything Trump and the Gophers do, is for it to go nowhere. All the action for democracy, freedom and justice now is in the resist movement; period. Thankfully, the red menace has an orange menace as its general. Cheeto Nero Benito.

[Odin]

Looks like the GOP infighting as begun. This current plan they are floating pisses off the Freedom Caucus folks who insist on a full repeal and no replacement, but a full repeal would be opposed by GOP senators in Medicare expansion states. It will be hilarious if the ACA survives because of this, LMAO!

[Kinser79]

Not so fast skippy....Rand has already floated the same repeal that passed the Senate twice.

As for a replacement I think this is a matter that should be turned over to the states. Give them a mandate to provide universal coverage some how and how to pay for it some how. This shouldn't be a federal matter. That way Commiefornia can have what it wants and Alabama can have what it wants.

Federalism...it works...mostly

[Ragnarök_62]

(03-09-2017, 03:37 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The best thing that can happen with most-anything Trump and the Gophers do, is for it to go nowhere. All the action for democracy, freedom and justice now is in the resist movement; period. Thankfully, the red menace has an orange menace as its general. Cheeto Nero Benito.

Trump, golf courses, and gophers.  Wow, that brings back memories, man.

[Galen]

(03-09-2017, 03:37 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The best thing that can happen with most-anything Trump and the Gophers do, is for it to go nowhere. All the action for democracy, freedom and justice now is in the resist movement; period. Thankfully, the red menace has an orange menace as its general. Cheeto Nero Benito.

Ironic that you should suddenly now be in favor of gridlock.

[Galen]

(03-10-2017, 10:30 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Not so fast skippy....Rand has already floated the same repeal that passed the Senate twice.

As for a replacement I think this is a matter that should be turned over to the states.  Give them a mandate to provide universal coverage some how and how to pay for it some how.  This shouldn't be a federal matter.  That way Commiefornia can have what it wants and Alabama can have what it wants.

Federalism...it works...mostly

The modern liberal or progressive can't stand the idea of people making decisions for themselves.  If they allow this then those who are better at decision making may end up better off than those who don't and that simply can not be allowed.

[Mikebert]

(01-16-2017, 02:20 AM)of the Warren Dew Wrote: First, perhaps the main reason they are cheaper is that alll the drug research is paid for by us, and they only pay the costs of manufacture. 

I work for Pfizer.  That's bullshit.  If we no longer had the US market to gouge our gross margins would go down. We would have to close New Jersey.  Good riddance, as far as we can tell they don't do anything. We would have to stop advertising and go with life cycle pricing.  Life would go on, sales would go up in terms of kilograms (good for us) but down in terms of dollars (bad for the suits).  The drug business would once again have something to do with developing, making and selling drugs--just like in the good old days.  But that's just a pipe dream.  In another decade there won't be anyone left who can remember the good old days.

The issue is simple.  President Trump talked about having the government bargain for lower drug prices like other governments do.  A bunch of suits from industry went to see him and after a brief meeting convinced his not to pursue this.  In the span of a few hours they did more more their companies bottom line that a thousand researchers developing new products could. That's why the lion's share of the cost of drugs does not go to those who discover, develop, and make the products the drug companies sell, but to the suits.

That's why when we got taken over they closed all of our drug R&D.  And they did so for all the R&D from the other companies Pfizer had acquired.  They have closed half of the manufacturing facilities too, but they kept our corporate HQ.  Apparently they still need the suits, they can do without the drug development scientists, and the manufacturing plants, but not the suits.

[Kinser79]

(03-11-2017, 05:05 AM)Galen Wrote:

(03-10-2017, 10:30 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Not so fast skippy....Rand has already floated the same repeal that passed the Senate twice.

As for a replacement I think this is a matter that should be turned over to the states.  Give them a mandate to provide universal coverage some how and how to pay for it some how.  This shouldn't be a federal matter.  That way Commiefornia can have what it wants and Alabama can have what it wants.

Federalism...it works...mostly

The modern liberal or progressive can't stand the idea of people making decisions for themselves.  If they allow this then those who are better at decision making may end up better off than those who don't and that simply can not be allowed.

Another case of freedom being inversely proportional to equality. Strangely I've recently read a book over a century old about their mindset, of course back then, they called them the Radicals.  Honestly I think that term is far more accurate than Progressive.

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