ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma

[Eric the Green]

(03-25-2017, 01:54 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Bob,

I would have a hard time calling myself a partisan.  I'm beholden to neither the Dim-ocrats nor the Repugnicans.  By and large I find the establishments of both Parties to be awful.  Eric on the other hand is very partisan--probably for the Greens or some other type of nonsense.  Seriously if you listen to the guy long enough you come to determine that if he indeed does have a political ideology at all, he's a watermelon.

The Tea Party/Trump faction is coming to dominate the Party.  Indeed Ryan had to pull his Obamacare Light bill because he simply didn't have the votes to get it out of the House (never mind the fact that it was DOA in the Senate).  As for bending the party to the intuative style of Trump I'm not sure that is required.  What is required a rebranding of the GOP as the party of Classical Liberalism, General Social Conservatism, and economic liberty.  Those three vectors are of prime importance to Xers and Zeds.  Millies may still orbit a bit around the Dims but that remains to be seen.

HA
HA
HA!

classical liberalism = "economic liberty" So that's only two, and the Repugs already own them. To their great discredit.

And adaptive generations just conform to civics in youth, so don't expect much backing for your 3T program from them.

You are a fake partisan who likes fake news.

Quote:Essentially taking those positions leaves the Dims the dullards, the reactionaries, the NeoLiberals and the NeoCons.  In short they are and will be the losers for the next saeculum.

Neo-liberals = classical liberals = "economic liberty" = all your Repugnicans LOSERS. NeoCons, that's your militarists; on your side too. The reactionaries; that's you guys-- the worst reactionaries ever. So that leaves us Dimwits with everyone you disagree with, which for that reason you call. "dullards." EPIC FAIL AGAIN, Kinsertroll.

Quote:As to Clinton--I think her presidency would have been a disaster, and that's assuming she would have made it to 2020 (as I posted previously I'm not convinced she's in good health).  Indeed when everyone recognizes that part of the problem is the Washington Establishment running someone who is the very definition of that establishment indicates that the party in question is out of ideas.

You kiddin'? She goes for walks in the woods! That'll keep her goin!

Quote:As to tribes:  The largest possible tribe to date is in fact the nation which can have millions of individuals.  That being said the average individual only really cares about 20-30 other individuals tops.

As to threats, yes I would say an existential threat is required for a civic generation to become a hero generation.  That's about all I'll say about threats in general.  The new economic formulation and climate change though are slow moving threats and unlikely to inspire much passion apart from a few Prophet Gen wackos. 

Humans still have a relatively primitive brain structure and as such we're still going to have to contend with flight or fight responses--economic change and climate change simply don't trigger that mechanism.

How about "they're comin' to take away ma GUNS!!!" That'll get you guys goin, when gun control passes in the 2020s!

The one thing you reactionaries fear the most is emasculation!

Quote:As to Obamacare 2.0 since you brought it up.  As I said previously Ryan didn't have the votes.  Had he brought the bill to the floor it would have died and likely resulted in a push for a vote of no confidence.  The fact of the matter is he can't control the house as it stands and he probably should be replaced soon.  If he brings a clean repeal to the floor it would pass and be signed within a week.

Ryan is part of the GOP establishment so expect there to be a lot of noise and fuss about the bill.  Don't expect much to be done about it.  If he wants to save his speakership he should move on to other issues.

He will move on, but what I hear is that not only is he still respected by his fellow reactionaries, it's also the case that no-one would be foolish enough to take on his job. Even HE knew going in that it was not going to be any picnic. Imagine trying to direct or organize THAT group of roughneck, redneck, mean, ignorant goons!

Quote:As for Obamacare itself, it will collapse under its own weight anyway.  The problem is getting the Dims to own that collapse.

That WILL likely be a problem, since Drump and the GOPFERS own their defeat now. They spent 7 years wailing against a reasonably good alternative to the horrible free-enterprise status quo that you favor, and spent 0 seconds of all that time figuring out a replacement. So they come up with this last-minute scam that nobody likes, and everybody bails. The Repugs just proved how stupid they are. Fortunately for our side, that stupidity is always liable to rear its head. The Democrats should take the "blame" that Trump assigns to them for this victory over Trump/Ryancare, because it's a great victory for the people.

[Odin]

President Bannon is in over his head.

Quote:"Guys, look. This is not a discussion. This is not a debate. You have no choice but to vote for this bill,” Bannon reportedly said.

A Freedom Caucus member reportedly replied: “You know, the last time someone ordered me to something, I was 18 years old. And it was my daddy. And I didn't listen to him, either."

Ouch!

[Eric the Green]

(03-25-2017, 03:02 PM)Odin Wrote: President Bannon is in over his head.

Quote:"Guys, look. This is not a discussion. This is not a debate. You have no choice but to vote for this bill,” Bannon reportedly said.

A Freedom Caucus member reportedly replied: “You know, the last time someone ordered me to something, I was 18 years old. And it was my daddy. And I didn't listen to him, either."

Ouch!

Reminds me of the murder victim (oil baron Jerome Klee) on Perry Mason episode #266, who said exactly that, adding "I broke his jaw for him." 

He was also the one Perry asked, "What kind of a man are you?" after consigning a hillbilly well owner to bankruptcy. "A money man" he said. "How much money do you want?" Perry asked. Jerome Klee replied: "If I can get it, all there is."

The actor who played this character, Wendell Corey, went on to run for congress as a conservative Republican in the same year as the episode (1966). He died two years later. He apparently was a lot like his character. 
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0673422/reviews




Kinda typical all around, eh?

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0179819/bio

[FLBones]

Who cares if the job is "mindless" and "dull" if it offers full time positions with decent pay, benefits and pension? I'd take a factory job in a heartbeat if they were available. The elitist attitudes towards factory/manufacturing jobs is partly what led to the demise of it here in the US. It's better than the way things are now with most jobs being in the service sector. It's predominately low paying part time jobs. And a lot of these service sector jobs have irregular working hours like working nights, weekends, holidays, etc.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-25-2017, 03:02 PM)Odin Wrote: President Bannon is in over his head.

Quote:"Guys, look. This is not a discussion. This is not a debate. You have no choice but to vote for this bill,” Bannon reportedly said.

A Freedom Caucus member reportedly replied: “You know, the last time someone ordered me to something, I was 18 years old. And it was my daddy. And I didn't listen to him, either."

Ouch!

No respect.  Maybe he should wear his SNL costume with the death mask and black robes?

[Classic-Xer]

(03-25-2017, 10:08 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I guess we might ask what's next.  A week or three of finger pointing seems inevitable.  The White House has given up.  During the campaign, the question was whether to repeal and replace, or whether to tune up and stabilize.  Repeal and replace seems to be gone, but few think it Obamacare can be left as it is.

I think the Democrats want something that will work for most everybody.  Some Republicans want to make life easier for the wealthy and healthy, and object philosophically to certain aspects.  Is there room to dicker?  I'd like to see the Democrats put together a fix it proposal, then really listen to what it would take to get enough Republicans to vote for something that works.

Then see if Trump throws around veto threats.

The blame game is creative.  One way of looking at it is that the Democrats did as they promised and to a great extent make their base happy.  The Republicans did neither.  One can wave one's hands and pretend that in a fey world loss is victory, but who delivered on their promises?

Well, I'd say the opportunity for the Democrats to tune up and stabilize has already come and gone at this point. So, we are pretty much stuck with a failing healthcare bill that will only get worse as time goes on. Woo hoo! The Democrats did a great job fucking everyone (especially those they claim to care about so much) who has healthcare by opting out of the process all together.

[Eric the Green]

(03-25-2017, 04:31 PM)FLBones Wrote: Who cares if the job is "mindless" and "dull" if it offers full time positions with decent pay, benefits and pension? I'd take a factory job in a heartbeat if they were available. The elitist attitudes towards factory/manufacturing jobs is partly what led to the demise of it here in the US. It's better than the way things are now with most jobs being in the service sector. It's predominately low paying part time jobs. And a lot of these service sector jobs have irregular working hours like working nights, weekends, holidays, etc.

They were better than the service jobs. But there was much grounds for complaint about these jobs, since they made people do robotic things which made them feel more like machines. They aren't very fulfilling, creative or stimulating jobs, so many people rebelled at having to do them. The only reward for these jobs was money, and workers had no connection to what they were making. So was life just about making money, so you could "live" by having some (also-mindless) "fun" on the weekends and on rare vacations for living? Kinda like how their man Trump views his current job? Yes, there was lots to complain about this lifestyle. But the "standard of living" was good, IF "living" meant little more than "making" a living.

But did the complaints kill the jobs? I doubt it. It's cheaper for the bosses to hire robots in the long run than hiring real live human robots, and also cheaper to move factories to China, Mexico or Bangladesh and hire the cheap labor available over there. The complaints were justified, but the service jobs are no more fulfilling, and pay worse, for those who can't master the high tech world, be their own boss, or fulfill their dream to be some kind of artist or inventor/scientist. 

The "elite" to complain about is not those who complained about the mindlessness of the factory jobs. The "elite" to complain about is the bosses who fired the workers for their own economic benefit, and replaced them with machines and cheaper labor abroad, and who won't cut hours and raise the pay of the workers instead of firing them. The "elite" to complain about is the Republican politicians who get votes by appealing to the prejudices of those who lost their jobs, who think that it's the fault of "elitist attitudes" or "illegal immigrants" or "affirmative action" that they lost their jobs, when it isn't. The elite to complain about is the Republican politicians and the bosses who bankroll them, who appeal to the "self reliance" ethos while throwing people out of work, and opposing as "creating dependency" the very welfare programs and income credits that are necessary because of the very unemployment which THEY cause by hogging all the rewards of the new technology that lessens the need for labor.

[Eric the Green]

(03-25-2017, 05:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 10:08 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I guess we might ask what's next.  A week or three of finger pointing seems inevitable.  The White House has given up.  During the campaign, the question was whether to repeal and replace, or whether to tune up and stabilize.  Repeal and replace seems to be gone, but few think it Obamacare can be left as it is.

I think the Democrats want something that will work for most everybody.  Some Republicans want to make life easier for the wealthy and healthy, and object philosophically to certain aspects.  Is there room to dicker?  I'd like to see the Democrats put together a fix it proposal, then really listen to what it would take to get enough Republicans to vote for something that works.

Then see if Trump throws around veto threats.

The blame game is creative.  One way of looking at it is that the Democrats did as they promised and to a great extent make their base happy.  The Republicans did neither.  One can wave one's hands and pretend that in a fey world loss is victory, but who delivered on their promises?

Well, I'd say the opportunity for the Democrats to tune up and stabilize has already come and gone at this point. So, we are pretty much stuck with a failing healthcare bill that will only get worse as time goes on. Woo hoo! The Democrats did a great job fucking everyone (especially those they claim to care about so much) who has healthcare by opting out of the process all together.

Or maybe it was the Republicans who fucked up, by never working with the Democrats on real reform, and instead doing nothing but voting to repeal it for 7 years without any replacement? Maybe it was the voters, who failed to put leaders in office who could have made Obamacare work and made it less dependent on the insurance industry, which is the cause of most of the problems in health care?

[Kinser79]

(03-25-2017, 04:57 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 03:02 PM)Odin Wrote: President Bannon is in over his head.

Quote:"Guys, look. This is not a discussion. This is not a debate. You have no choice but to vote for this bill,” Bannon reportedly said.

A Freedom Caucus member reportedly replied: “You know, the last time someone ordered me to something, I was 18 years old. And it was my daddy. And I didn't listen to him, either."

Ouch!

No respect.  Maybe he should wear his SNL costume with the death mask and black robes?

Or maybe Odin doesn't understand how the Republican mind works.  Had Bannon told me to vote for this thing and I were a Rep...I'd have been like "fuck you".  I mean it would have been a visceral and gut reaction--that would be the gut reaction on a clean repeal never mind a steaming pile of excrement that is Obamacare Lite.  All the fail of Obamacare but less spending on socialist programs.

Of course, Odin, also says that I'm delusional when I say that the fall of "Ryancare" was deliberate.

[Classic-Xer]

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 10:08 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I guess we might ask what's next.  A week or three of finger pointing seems inevitable.  The White House has given up.  During the campaign, the question was whether to repeal and replace, or whether to tune up and stabilize.  Repeal and replace seems to be gone, but few think it Obamacare can be left as it is.

I think the Democrats want something that will work for most everybody.  Some Republicans want to make life easier for the wealthy and healthy, and object philosophically to certain aspects.  Is there room to dicker?  I'd like to see the Democrats put together a fix it proposal, then really listen to what it would take to get enough Republicans to vote for something that works.

Then see if Trump throws around veto threats.

The blame game is creative.  One way of looking at it is that the Democrats did as they promised and to a great extent make their base happy.  The Republicans did neither.  One can wave one's hands and pretend that in a fey world loss is victory, but who delivered on their promises?

Well, I'd say the opportunity for the Democrats to tune up and stabilize has already come and gone at this point. So, we are pretty much stuck with a failing healthcare bill that will only get worse as time goes on. Woo hoo! The Democrats did a great job fucking everyone (especially those they claim to care about so much) who has healthcare by opting out of the process all together.

Or maybe it was the Republicans who fucked up, by never working with the Democrats on real reform, and instead doing nothing but voting to repeal it for 7 years without any replacement? Maybe it was the voters, who failed to put leaders in office who could have made Obamacare work and made it less dependent on the insurance industry, which is the cause of most of the problems in health care?

The Republicans were placed on ignore during the process associated with Obamacare. Arrogant Democrats don't have to listen to or include Republicans when they have a super majority and a rubber stamp in the White House. Trump doesn't care if Obamacare fails and a bunch of older/younger OBAMA voters who didn't vote (seem to hate him) eventually loose their free healthcare. As he said, the proper thing to do as far as political interest go would be allow it to fail as it will and move on the passing other things leaving the Democrats to deal with their own mess. Well, he tried and the Democrats didn't seem to want anything to do with it or seem to care that's it's failing. So fuck them, it's their baby. The spent seven years presenting stuff that they knew wasn't going to get passed because that's what politicians do to keep their jobs. I'm sure Trumps election surprised them as much as it surprised the Democrats. Myself, I wouldn't bailout the Democrats. I'd let them deal with their own failure.

[Classic-Xer]

(03-25-2017, 07:26 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 04:57 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 03:02 PM)Odin Wrote: President Bannon is in over his head.

Quote:"Guys, look. This is not a discussion. This is not a debate. You have no choice but to vote for this bill,” Bannon reportedly said.

A Freedom Caucus member reportedly replied: “You know, the last time someone ordered me to something, I was 18 years old. And it was my daddy. And I didn't listen to him, either."

Ouch!

No respect.  Maybe he should wear his SNL costume with the death mask and black robes?

Or maybe Odin doesn't understand how the Republican mind works.  Had Bannon told me to vote for this thing and I were a Rep...I'd have been like "fuck you".  I mean it would have been a visceral and gut reaction--that would be the gut reaction on a clean repeal never mind a steaming pile of excrement that is Obamacare Lite.  All the fail of Obamacare but less spending on socialist programs.

Of course, Odin, also says that I'm delusional when I say that the fall of "Ryancare" was deliberate.

Odin doesn't understand the ruthlessness that's commonly associated with our nature. Odin is used to squawking & getting whatever he wants from a candy ass Republican or Democrat who represents a candy ass district. I hope the Freedom Caucus understands that is nothing without the support of Republican voters like myself. Fucking liberal Dimocrats is one thing. Fucking Republican voters is another thing. I wouldn't have a problem fucking one (accepting a short term (one term Democrat) Democrat) of them out of a job. I doubt a Libertarian seat in congress pays as well and draws as much media attention as the Republican seat that they currently occupy in the Senate or Congress.

[Kinser79]

I think that I'll leave this here.  Philosopher Extraordinaire Stephan Molyneux solves the American Health Care problem.

Also he's one of those Canadians who "love" their single payer system so much that he seeks treatment in the US.

[Eric the Green]

(03-25-2017, 08:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 10:08 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I guess we might ask what's next.  A week or three of finger pointing seems inevitable.  The White House has given up.  During the campaign, the question was whether to repeal and replace, or whether to tune up and stabilize.  Repeal and replace seems to be gone, but few think it Obamacare can be left as it is.

I think the Democrats want something that will work for most everybody.  Some Republicans want to make life easier for the wealthy and healthy, and object philosophically to certain aspects.  Is there room to dicker?  I'd like to see the Democrats put together a fix it proposal, then really listen to what it would take to get enough Republicans to vote for something that works.

Then see if Trump throws around veto threats.

The blame game is creative.  One way of looking at it is that the Democrats did as they promised and to a great extent make their base happy.  The Republicans did neither.  One can wave one's hands and pretend that in a fey world loss is victory, but who delivered on their promises?

Well, I'd say the opportunity for the Democrats to tune up and stabilize has already come and gone at this point. So, we are pretty much stuck with a failing healthcare bill that will only get worse as time goes on. Woo hoo! The Democrats did a great job fucking everyone (especially those they claim to care about so much) who has healthcare by opting out of the process all together.

Or maybe it was the Republicans who fucked up, by never working with the Democrats on real reform, and instead doing nothing but voting to repeal it for 7 years without any replacement? Maybe it was the voters, who failed to put leaders in office who could have made Obamacare work and made it less dependent on the insurance industry, which is the cause of most of the problems in health care?

The Republicans were placed on ignore during the process associated with Obamacare. Arrogant Democrats don't have to listen to or include Republicans when they have a super majority and a rubber stamp in the White House. Trump doesn't care if Obamacare fails and a bunch of older/younger OBAMA voters who didn't vote (seem to hate him) eventually lose their free healthcare. As he said, the proper thing to do as far as political interest go would be allow it to fail as it will and move on the passing other things leaving the Democrats to deal with their own mess. Well, he tried and the Democrats didn't seem to want anything to do with it or seem to care that's it's failing. So fuck them, it's their baby. The spent seven years presenting stuff that they knew wasn't going to get passed because that's what politicians do to keep their jobs. I'm sure Trumps election surprised them as much as it surprised the Democrats. Myself, I wouldn't bailout the Democrats. I'd let them deal with their own failure.

Republicans in 2009 (and most of the time for the last several decades) are only interested in one thing: blocking anything to be done. Their project is to reduce the government they don't like so it fits inside a bathtub, and building up the government they do like into an autocracy to protect the oligarchy. The Republicans never did anything but resist a compromise health care reform bill that was patterned after their own earlier plans and those of Gov. Romney. No Democratic leader can work with today's Republicans, because their only goal is to destroy and to oppose Democrats. They do not compromise or work with Democrats.

Ryan and Trump didn't "try;" they only want to protect free enterprise, not peoples' health. Their failure is their baby now. They have the majority in the government, and could have passed it by the reconciliation process just like the Democrats passed Obamacare, but their bill was so poor and unpopular that they couldn't even get their own Republicans behind them. The Republicans spent 7 years repealing Obamacare and offering no alternative. They still don't have an alternative to offer, and that's because they never wanted reform at all.

The only hope for Trump is to dump his Republicans after many failures in the coming months, and govern from the center instead by working with Democrats. But he probably can't do that, because he has surrounded himself with extreme right wingers, and has proposed an extreme right wing budget that he has to stand behind at least for a year or two. Because he can't admit that he is ever wrong or makes mistakes, making such an adjustment is personally hard for him. And since he does not understand the issues in any depth, he lacks much of the deal making ability he promised to bring to the job. He would have to portray his adjustment as a victory, somehow; an expression of his ongoing leadership in making America great again. And then work at being a real leader, not just a showman. I'm not optimistic. Can the impulsive and brash Mars in Leo the Lion rising change his spots? Or will his priority remain having his lion-colored mane combed and groomed?

[Classic-Xer]

(03-26-2017, 01:02 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 08:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 10:08 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I guess we might ask what's next.  A week or three of finger pointing seems inevitable.  The White House has given up.  During the campaign, the question was whether to repeal and replace, or whether to tune up and stabilize.  Repeal and replace seems to be gone, but few think it Obamacare can be left as it is.

I think the Democrats want something that will work for most everybody.  Some Republicans want to make life easier for the wealthy and healthy, and object philosophically to certain aspects.  Is there room to dicker?  I'd like to see the Democrats put together a fix it proposal, then really listen to what it would take to get enough Republicans to vote for something that works.

Then see if Trump throws around veto threats.

The blame game is creative.  One way of looking at it is that the Democrats did as they promised and to a great extent make their base happy.  The Republicans did neither.  One can wave one's hands and pretend that in a fey world loss is victory, but who delivered on their promises?

Well, I'd say the opportunity for the Democrats to tune up and stabilize has already come and gone at this point. So, we are pretty much stuck with a failing healthcare bill that will only get worse as time goes on. Woo hoo! The Democrats did a great job fucking everyone (especially those they claim to care about so much) who has healthcare by opting out of the process all together.

Or maybe it was the Republicans who fucked up, by never working with the Democrats on real reform, and instead doing nothing but voting to repeal it for 7 years without any replacement? Maybe it was the voters, who failed to put leaders in office who could have made Obamacare work and made it less dependent on the insurance industry, which is the cause of most of the problems in health care?

The Republicans were placed on ignore during the process associated with Obamacare. Arrogant Democrats don't have to listen to or include Republicans when they have a super majority and a rubber stamp in the White House. Trump doesn't care if Obamacare fails and a bunch of older/younger OBAMA voters who didn't vote (seem to hate him) eventually lose their free healthcare. As he said, the proper thing to do as far as political interest go would be allow it to fail as it will and move on the passing other things leaving the Democrats to deal with their own mess. Well, he tried and the Democrats didn't seem to want anything to do with it or seem to care that's it's failing. So fuck them, it's their baby. The spent seven years presenting stuff that they knew wasn't going to get passed because that's what politicians do to keep their jobs. I'm sure Trumps election surprised them as much as it surprised the Democrats. Myself, I wouldn't bailout the Democrats. I'd let them deal with their own failure.

Republicans in 2009 (and most of the time for the last several decades) are only interested in one thing: blocking anything to be done. Their project is to reduce the government they don't like so it fits inside a bathtub, and building up the government they do like into an autocracy to protect the oligarchy. The Republicans never did anything but resist a compromise health care reform bill that was patterned after their own earlier plans and those of Gov. Romney. No Democratic leader can work with today's Republicans, because their only goal is to destroy and to oppose Democrats. They do not compromise or work with Democrats.

Ryan and Trump didn't "try;" they only want to protect free enterprise, not peoples' health. Their failure is their baby now. They have the majority in the government, and could have passed it by the reconciliation process just like the Democrats passed Obamacare, but their bill was so poor and unpopular that they couldn't even get their own Republicans behind them. The Republicans spent 7 years repealing Obamacare and offering no alternative. They still don't have an alternative to offer, and that's because they never wanted reform at all.

The only hope for Trump is to dump his Republicans after many failures in the coming months, and govern from the center instead by working with Democrats. But he probably can't do that, because he has surrounded himself with extreme right wingers, and has proposed an extreme right wing budget that he has to stand behind at least for a year or two. Because he can't admit that he is ever wrong or makes mistakes, making such an adjustment is personally hard for him. And since he does not understand the issues in any depth, he lacks much of the deal making ability he promised to bring to the job. He would have to portray his adjustment as a victory, somehow; an expression of his ongoing leadership in making America great again. And then work at being a real leader, not just a showman. I'm not optimistic. Can the impulsive and brash Mars in Leo the Lion rising change his spots? Or will his priority remain having his lion-colored mane combed and groomed?

Trump isn't going to dump Republicans as you'd hope that he would in time. That would be silly. Nope, he should just chalk it up as a loss, move on and allow the Democrats time to accept the reality of twenty million blue voters loosing their free healthcare in a few years with no other options available for them. I can only imagine how nasty the town halls are going to be in Democratic districts.

[Bob Butler 54]

Looks like Bernie is going to throw out 'Medicare for Everybody', a simple place to start if one is thinking single payer.  I feel confident that somebody on the D side will throw out a 'tune Obamacare' bill.  I'm also not totally confident that the Republicans won't try to get back in the game.

But, meanwhile, it's finger pointing and blame game time.  This forum illustrates this as well as anything.  People living in different alternate realities will viciously attack assorted straw men.  It seems wise to sit back until the garbage burns out, assuming it ever burns out.

But mild applause for Bernie for throwing out something that might be a starting point for talking.

[pbrower2a]

Quote:Classic-Xer Wrote:

Trump isn't going to dump Republicans as you'd hope that he would in time. That would be silly. Nope, he should just chalk it up as a loss, move on and allow the Democrats time to accept the reality of twenty million blue voters loosing their free healthcare in a few years with no other options available for them. I can only imagine how nasty the town halls are going to be in Democratic districts.

They get tossed out in the same gray water, flushed down the same sewer, or drained out of the same swamp. Choose your metaphor. Well, it will likely be that History chooses the metaphor for us.

[tg63]

(03-25-2017, 02:48 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 02:44 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 02:32 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: That was told to me today by a regular Snowbird.

Sure it was...

Hey just because you don't know any Canadians doesn't mean I don't.  Strange animals Canadians.  They seem to prefer our country to their own.

just FYI, our country of almost 40 million actually has a wide range of people with a wide range of perspectives ... but my experience has shown me that we're largely in agreement in that we like our own country just fine thank you.

[Eric the Green]

(03-26-2017, 05:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-26-2017, 01:02 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 08:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, I'd say the opportunity for the Democrats to tune up and stabilize has already come and gone at this point. So, we are pretty much stuck with a failing healthcare bill that will only get worse as time goes on. Woo hoo! The Democrats did a great job fucking everyone (especially those they claim to care about so much) who has healthcare by opting out of the process all together.

Or maybe it was the Republicans who fucked up, by never working with the Democrats on real reform, and instead doing nothing but voting to repeal it for 7 years without any replacement? Maybe it was the voters, who failed to put leaders in office who could have made Obamacare work and made it less dependent on the insurance industry, which is the cause of most of the problems in health care?

The Republicans were placed on ignore during the process associated with Obamacare. Arrogant Democrats don't have to listen to or include Republicans when they have a super majority and a rubber stamp in the White House. Trump doesn't care if Obamacare fails and a bunch of older/younger OBAMA voters who didn't vote (seem to hate him) eventually lose their free healthcare. As he said, the proper thing to do as far as political interest go would be allow it to fail as it will and move on the passing other things leaving the Democrats to deal with their own mess. Well, he tried and the Democrats didn't seem to want anything to do with it or seem to care that's it's failing. So fuck them, it's their baby. The spent seven years presenting stuff that they knew wasn't going to get passed because that's what politicians do to keep their jobs. I'm sure Trumps election surprised them as much as it surprised the Democrats. Myself, I wouldn't bailout the Democrats. I'd let them deal with their own failure.

Republicans in 2009 (and most of the time for the last several decades) are only interested in one thing: blocking anything to be done. Their project is to reduce the government they don't like so it fits inside a bathtub, and building up the government they do like into an autocracy to protect the oligarchy. The Republicans never did anything but resist a compromise health care reform bill that was patterned after their own earlier plans and those of Gov. Romney. No Democratic leader can work with today's Republicans, because their only goal is to destroy and to oppose Democrats. They do not compromise or work with Democrats.

Ryan and Trump didn't "try;" they only want to protect free enterprise, not peoples' health. Their failure is their baby now. They have the majority in the government, and could have passed it by the reconciliation process just like the Democrats passed Obamacare, but their bill was so poor and unpopular that they couldn't even get their own Republicans behind them. The Republicans spent 7 years repealing Obamacare and offering no alternative. They still don't have an alternative to offer, and that's because they never wanted reform at all.

The only hope for Trump is to dump his Republicans after many failures in the coming months, and govern from the center instead by working with Democrats. But he probably can't do that, because he has surrounded himself with extreme right wingers, and has proposed an extreme right wing budget that he has to stand behind at least for a year or two. Because he can't admit that he is ever wrong or makes mistakes, making such an adjustment is personally hard for him. And since he does not understand the issues in any depth, he lacks much of the deal making ability he promised to bring to the job. He would have to portray his adjustment as a victory, somehow; an expression of his ongoing leadership in making America great again. And then work at being a real leader, not just a showman. I'm not optimistic. Can the impulsive and brash Mars in Leo the Lion rising change his spots? Or will his priority remain having his lion-colored mane combed and groomed?

Trump isn't going to dump Republicans as you'd hope that he would in time. That would be silly. Nope, he should just chalk it up as a loss, move on and allow the Democrats time to accept the reality of twenty million blue voters loosing their free healthcare in a few years with no other options available for them. I can only imagine how nasty the town halls are going to be in Democratic districts.

Probably so. But the "no other options available to them" is just what they would have had either before Obamacare, or under Trumpcare.

[Classic-Xer]

(03-26-2017, 10:41 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Looks like Bernie is going to throw out 'Medicare for Everybody', a simple place to start if one is thinking single payer.  I feel confident that somebody on the D side will throw out a 'tune Obamacare' bill.  I'm also not totally confident that the Republicans won't try to get back in the game.

But, meanwhile, it's finger pointing and blame game time.  This forum illustrates this as well as anything.  People living in different alternate realities will viciously attack assorted straw men.  It seems wise to sit back until the garbage burns out, assuming it ever burns out.

But mild applause for Bernie for throwing out something that might be a starting point for talking.

I'm not happy with either party at the moment. I can't stand (prefer to eliminate and replace it with a different party) one of them. I'm very disappointed with a portion of the other one right now.

[Classic-Xer]

(03-27-2017, 11:40 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-26-2017, 05:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-26-2017, 01:02 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 08:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2017, 05:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Or maybe it was the Republicans who fucked up, by never working with the Democrats on real reform, and instead doing nothing but voting to repeal it for 7 years without any replacement? Maybe it was the voters, who failed to put leaders in office who could have made Obamacare work and made it less dependent on the insurance industry, which is the cause of most of the problems in health care?

The Republicans were placed on ignore during the process associated with Obamacare. Arrogant Democrats don't have to listen to or include Republicans when they have a super majority and a rubber stamp in the White House. Trump doesn't care if Obamacare fails and a bunch of older/younger OBAMA voters who didn't vote (seem to hate him) eventually lose their free healthcare. As he said, the proper thing to do as far as political interest go would be allow it to fail as it will and move on the passing other things leaving the Democrats to deal with their own mess. Well, he tried and the Democrats didn't seem to want anything to do with it or seem to care that's it's failing. So fuck them, it's their baby. The spent seven years presenting stuff that they knew wasn't going to get passed because that's what politicians do to keep their jobs. I'm sure Trumps election surprised them as much as it surprised the Democrats. Myself, I wouldn't bailout the Democrats. I'd let them deal with their own failure.

Republicans in 2009 (and most of the time for the last several decades) are only interested in one thing: blocking anything to be done. Their project is to reduce the government they don't like so it fits inside a bathtub, and building up the government they do like into an autocracy to protect the oligarchy. The Republicans never did anything but resist a compromise health care reform bill that was patterned after their own earlier plans and those of Gov. Romney. No Democratic leader can work with today's Republicans, because their only goal is to destroy and to oppose Democrats. They do not compromise or work with Democrats.

Ryan and Trump didn't "try;" they only want to protect free enterprise, not peoples' health. Their failure is their baby now. They have the majority in the government, and could have passed it by the reconciliation process just like the Democrats passed Obamacare, but their bill was so poor and unpopular that they couldn't even get their own Republicans behind them. The Republicans spent 7 years repealing Obamacare and offering no alternative. They still don't have an alternative to offer, and that's because they never wanted reform at all.

The only hope for Trump is to dump his Republicans after many failures in the coming months, and govern from the center instead by working with Democrats. But he probably can't do that, because he has surrounded himself with extreme right wingers, and has proposed an extreme right wing budget that he has to stand behind at least for a year or two. Because he can't admit that he is ever wrong or makes mistakes, making such an adjustment is personally hard for him. And since he does not understand the issues in any depth, he lacks much of the deal making ability he promised to bring to the job. He would have to portray his adjustment as a victory, somehow; an expression of his ongoing leadership in making America great again. And then work at being a real leader, not just a showman. I'm not optimistic. Can the impulsive and brash Mars in Leo the Lion rising change his spots? Or will his priority remain having his lion-colored mane combed and groomed?

Trump isn't going to dump Republicans as you'd hope that he would in time. That would be silly. Nope, he should just chalk it up as a loss, move on and allow the Democrats time to accept the reality of twenty million blue voters loosing their free healthcare in a few years with no other options available for them. I can only imagine how nasty the town halls are going to be in Democratic districts.

Probably so. But the "no other options available to them" is just what they would have had either before Obamacare, or under Trumpcare.

Trumpcare would have at least given them a heads up and a gradual transition period vs being completely blindsided when Obamacare abruptly comes to an end. I hope you're not foolish enough to believe a Democratic voter (union worker or a yuppi) is going to be willing to sacrifice trips to Cancun that were paid for with hard earned dollars that Obamacare turns into tax dollars to support those who are now entitled to free healthcare.