Fascism is on the ballot

[Eric the Green]

This essay was prompted by seeing Rick Steves' program on fascism, and his warning that it can still happen here.
https://youtu.be/JU1IVW6uqM0

We now have a leader who wants to abolish democracy, and he is on the ballot. Trump is the reincarnation of Mussolini, and he is using his playbook. Trump wants to "get rid of the ballots" and install himself in power. He and his henchmen under McConnell have filled the Courts with reactionaries who will install him in power. Some of them have already restricted ballots in Wisconsin, and made qualified people pay to vote in Florida. More rulings may be coming. McConnell and Trump are now ramming through a fascist Christian ideologue onto the Supreme Court before the election so she can join 4 other reactionaries already appointed by him and Bush to install him in power.

Our new fuhrer/duce, our dear leader, has called on his brown shirts to "stand by." He has sent his goons to gas protesters in DC for a photo op, to execute a prisoner without trial in a hail of bullets, and to stoke riots in Portland and other cities. He has asked that they defend his stand to stay in power in Washington and in his White House bunker. He has called on his Attorney General not only to defend him against charges about his personal behavior, and hold him above the law in his dispute with New York, but now to explicitly arrest all his political opponents and put them in jail. "Why haven't Hillary, Obama and Biden been arrested yet?" he cries, almost sounding like Hitler who shouted "Is Paris burning yet?" in 1944. 

And yet this dictator, this fascist tyrant, is still on the ballot, and currently still has 42% of deceived, angry, fearful, prejudiced Americans like Classic Xer at his beck and call, ready to march and, as Classic Xer says, wipe out all his opponents. The new fascist ideology, though it has much in common with those a century ago and others around the world today, is also uniquely American. It not only subordinates everything to the state, but conceives this state according to supposed "Americanism." It is called neo-liberalism, which has not hestitated to support dictators like Pinochet in the past, as long as they keep big business from being taxed and regulated and keep an established economic elite in power. That is the fascist goal, an untrammeled "free enterprise" system that takes away all real freedom. Only people of "good Christian character" who oppose abortion and believe in a totalitarian God above us are capable of being good capitalist Americans, who are willing and able march in lockstep with whatever their bosses command. I have described this plague in my essay on free market ideology

This neo-liberalism is largely based in racism, using it as a dog whistle or a TRUMPet to appeal to resentment against taxes for welfare for "those people" who "depend on government" and "don't work," and the neo-liberals thus encourage and stoke white supremacy. Fear of America's increasing diversity through immigration and civil rights movements is the easiest and most reliable fear and prejudice that the oligarchs and their believers can appeal to in order to get support for their all-out attack on democracy, Nature and civilization. They empower and encourage their police to kill innocent young people of color, and when these people of color and their allies object and sometimes lash out, it is the first excuse to impose martial law on everyone. Along with that is the always reliable misogyny, which they can call upon to preserve male values and keep women in subordination.

This American fascist ideology is especially anti-intellectual and against individualist thinking. Since the 1970s one of its chief goals has been to denigrate education and privatize schools. They demolish Jefferson's and Horace Mann's ideals of an informed citizenry able to attend good schools and learn civics no matter what economic class or religion you belong to, and instead insult and demean teachers and restrict their funding and their unions. More recently they have targeted America's universities, the most outstanding in the world and the source of our economic wealth and scientific prowess, as "an elite" that seeks to impose political correctness and suppress free speech. Using this phony attack, they aim to relegate our universities to oblivion and to attack, demean, insult and fire our professors. They substitute this "elite" for the real one that they support and bankroll, the real elite which seeks to put our country lock, stock and barrel under the control of a few rich plutocrats who call all the shots, and who own our congress and our government through their supreme court decisions which equate money with free speech. Using their ownership of economic power to shut down all reform in congress, and block it in our Courts and through voter suppression, American fascists increasingly allow their oligarchic leaders to impose lousy working conditions, depress wages, replace workers with robots, shut down factories, swallow up real free businesses, cut social programs, health care and safety nets, ruin the economy with unregulated speculation justified by anti-socialist slogans, despoil our environment beyond repair, keep enormous profits for themselves, and send jobs overseas. They attack the media as the enemy of the people, and eagerly get on board with rising anti-scientific conspiracy theory culture to instill substitution of fantasy for real research and data, thus furthering their own ability to deceive the people.

People must decide now whether to allow this American fascism to succeed. Are we to go the way of fascist Germany and Italy? Franco's Spain or Chile's Pinochet? Donald Trump the fascist must be defeated at the polls by the largest margin we can muster, perhaps even dwarfing previous landslides, and flip his Senate Democratic too. Trump's project of getting legislators to substitute loyal trump electors for those elected by the people must be stopped, and his Court decisions overturned if possible. His fascist project of sending his armed "poll watcher" brown shirts in MAGA hats to intimidate voters at the polls must be exposed and countered. His plan of sending his proud boys and militias to invade Washington to prop him up in power must be defeated. His new fascist supreme court must be blocked and reformed by any means necessary, and the Senate filibuster reformed, so that the people can pass the needed reforms to stop this emerging fascism, and to free our society from 40 years of trickle-down, free-market, neo-liberalism ideology which has led us to this moment of potential doom. 

The people need action. It is urgent not only because of the fascist threat that could end our democracy and our republic, but the threats to our future, our safety and our prosperity that 40 years of incipient neo-liberalism has created since the charming faux-macho actor created the culture and ideology that is now out there clamouring for their new dear leader and their nation under their exclusive "God" and against "communism." The defeat of American fascism offers the momentum and the chance to build back better: to support sustainable, renewable energy and other measures to restore our climate and revitalize the Nature which restores and supports us, to jump-start our public and civics education, to create new jobs in new industries, science and health care, to unleash full prosperity by opening up our democracy and economy to all, to cure the pandemic in which Trump has imprisoned us, and to free us from division and resentment, and foster instead a new American life of openness, love, art, spirit and celebration.

It is not at all clear now that fascism (now called the Trumpist Republican Party) can be defeated and put out of power. All hands on deck, democrats and Democrats! Now and through the 2020s and beyond if necessary!

Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism
https://www.bremertonschools.org/cms/lib...slides.pdf

[Isoko]

I actually do have to agree with you here Eric. Trump is very much an authoritian leader modeled on the Mussolini model. Just his own comments I have observed recently are quite frankly anti-democratic and more fitting for that of a dictatorship. The only thing preventing Trump from a total take over is Congress, the military and other aspects of American governance that still want to keep the democratic project alive.

You know, my wife the other day made an interesting comment about Trump. She said that not only is he finished but also the entire movement of populism is finished in America. The country is too attached to democracy to fully go down a populist path. Europe on the other hand is a different story and regularly flitters between democracy and populism (Liberal rulership vs strong man Conservative rulership) every so many generations. Trump would do quite well in a country such as Italy, Greece, even France or Poland. Heck, even here in Russia, they say the vast majority of Russians would vote for Trump...

Now this itself is an interesting debate. Trump himself is basically a caesar. America has had a taste of it yet still feel uncomfortable with the idea. For now. However, how long until another potential caesar comes along in America? Trump was in essence quite weak as caesar. He did not tear down Congress, do a march on Washington or try to get powerful people on his side. Yet could Trump be a test drive for future American politics?

Im not sure. As I said before, caesarism always does well in Europe after several generations. Even Britain is not alien to the caesar style of leadership as was the case with both Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher. Although they acted within democratic means, they still had policies that were very caesarish. Even Tony Blair exhibited these qualities during his Premier ship.

We will have to wait and see. My prediction for America is that the country will drop Trump but the democratic mandate is too weak and fractured to handle the future problems of the country. Too many MAGA people, too many economic problems down the line and a declining empire. Whether a caesar stops this, democracy rebounds and takes it head on or the country eventually fractured and secedes is anyone's guess.

[David Horn]

(10-11-2020, 08:07 AM)Isoko Wrote: ... We will have to wait and see. My prediction for America is that the country will drop Trump but the democratic mandate is too weak and fractured to handle the future problems of the country. Too many MAGA people, too many economic problems down the line and a declining empire. Whether a caesar stops this, democracy rebounds and takes it head on or the country eventually fractured and secedes is anyone's guess.

The intellectuals who specialize in this area tend to agree that Trump may be an aberration, but the movement he triggered was coming with or without him.  Almost to a person, they expect this proto-Fascism to continue in some form for a few political cycles at the very least, but they doubt it will be able to rise to power again.  Trump poisoned the water for any follow-on types, his children included.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-11-2020, 09:50 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-11-2020, 08:07 AM)Isoko Wrote: ... We will have to wait and see. My prediction for America is that the country will drop Trump but the democratic mandate is too weak and fractured to handle the future problems of the country. Too many MAGA people, too many economic problems down the line and a declining empire. Whether a caesar stops this, democracy rebounds and takes it head on or the country eventually fractured and secedes is anyone's guess.

The intellectuals who specialize in this area tend to agree that Trump may be an aberration, but the movement he triggered was coming with or without him.  Almost to a person, they expect this proto-Fascism to continue in some form for a few political cycles at the very least, but they doubt it will be able to rise to power again.  Trump poisoned the water for any follow-on types, his children included.

I'm with Dave on this.  I don't see the establishment Republicans, Trump base and true conservatives holding the current alliance together well enough to challenge the Democrats.  If the Democrats play their cards right, helping the working man should be more potent vote wise than racist policy.  It would not shock me if the faction that came out of the Republican squabbling was the Trump Base, but I doubt they would take the White House.  We will see how the other factions respond.

Depending on whether elite money or Tea Party rejection of the elites can shake loose of Trump and the racist instinct, some sort of heir to the Republican Conservative movement might come out, but I don't see what will happen yet.

[pbrower2a]

"Establishment" Republicans have no real home in the Trump universe unless they sell out. Some have, and this has the potential to end some political careers. Trump has failed to recognize that some supporters are toxic.

No coalition remains intact indefinitely. Obviously some pols who win anomalous victories will demonstrate the next time how anomalous their wins were. Some will prove not up to the job and lose to an opponent who promises to be a competent replacement. Some may even prove to be crooks.

The Trump base is at most 40% of the American electorate (OK, someone like Classic X'er might assert that that base is the only part of America that is truly American). 40% might be enough for winning a nomination, but it is not enough for winning a nationwide election. Obviously the 2020 election must be over before we can draw any conclusions or lessons from it.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-11-2020, 11:35 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: "Establishment" Republicans have no real home in the Trump universe unless they sell out. Some have, and this has the potential to end some political careers. Trump has failed to recognize that some supporters are toxic.

No coalition remains intact indefinitely. Obviously some pols who win anomalous victories will demonstrate the next time how anomalous their wins were. Some will prove not up to the job and lose to an opponent who promises to be a competent replacement. Some may even prove to be crooks.

The Trump base is at most 40% of the American electorate (OK, someone like Classic X'er might assert that that base is the only part of America that is truly American). 40% might be enough for winning a nomination, but it is not enough for winning a nationwide election. Obviously the 2020 election must be over before we can draw any conclusions or lessons from it.

Classic can try to preempt the word 'American', but the roundhead urban principled and cavalier rural tribal fractions are about equal.  If anything, the roundhead are a bit dominant come the crisis.  The germans settled the Pennsylvania area and are worth an honorable mention.  The blacks, latinos, Irish, Italians, asians...  Well, there have been lots of honorable mentions over the years.

But, yes, if it comes down to two groups, go with the first mention two.  Always the blacks and the latest come are picked on.  In the pinch, the various 'minor' factions come together with the roundheads.

If there is a central idea of the roundhead faction, it is the coming together of the many groups creates America.  If there is a central idea of the cavaliers, it is that their tribe shall remain dominant.  It is rather clear which way I lean.

[Isoko]

To be honest, I think the Republicans will tone down on Trump's racial rhetoric but they will keep key policies that work with American voters. Combating illegal immigration, "America First" economic policies, slowly withdrawing from Europe and Asia, etc. I would say that with such policies and a smart candidate, Republicans could do well in future elections.

I think Trump has done to the Republican Party what Reagan did. He has transformed what the party stands for and there is no going back. Moderate those views, include other ethnic groups rather then catering to the white only crowd and you do have a winning formula.

[Eric the Green]

(10-11-2020, 08:07 AM)Isoko Wrote: I actually do have to agree with you here Eric. Trump is very much an authoritian leader modeled on the Mussolini model. Just his own comments I have observed recently are quite frankly anti-democratic and more fitting for that of a dictatorship. The only thing preventing Trump from a total take over is Congress, the military and other aspects of American governance that still want to keep the democratic project alive.

You know, my wife the other day made an interesting comment about Trump. She said that not only is he finished but also the entire movement of populism is finished in America. The country is too attached to democracy to fully go down a populist path. Europe on the other hand is a different story and regularly flitters between democracy and populism (Liberal rulership vs strong man Conservative rulership) every so many generations. Trump would do quite well in a country such as Italy, Greece, even France or Poland. Heck, even here in Russia, they say the vast majority of Russians would vote for Trump...

Now this itself is an interesting debate. Trump himself is basically a caesar. America has had a taste of it yet still feel uncomfortable with the idea. For now. However, how long until another potential caesar comes along in America? Trump was in essence quite weak as caesar. He did not tear down Congress, do a march on Washington or try to get powerful people on his side. Yet could Trump be a test drive for future American politics?

Im not sure. As I said before, caesarism always does well in Europe after several generations. Even Britain is not alien to the caesar style of leadership as was the case with both Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher. Although they acted within democratic means, they still had policies that were very caesarish. Even Tony Blair exhibited these qualities during his Premier ship.

We will have to wait and see. My prediction for America is that the country will drop Trump but the democratic mandate is too weak and fractured to handle the future problems of the country. Too many MAGA people, too many economic problems down the line and a declining empire. Whether a caesar stops this, democracy rebounds and takes it head on or the country eventually fractured and secedes is anyone's guess.

As people here might know, I revert to the original and genuine definition of "populism" as a movement for the power of the people over the power of moneyed interests. That was the original program of the Populist Party in 1892 and their takeover of the Democrats in the election of 1896 that reshaped our political parties to where they are today, with an additional dramatic geographic and diversity/peace/ecology shift and reaction to it from the 1960s and 70s onward.

"Populism" today is used as a term to mean politicians appealing to prejudices and fears among the people in order to impose tyranny upon them, and suggests that there is a smarter and less-prejudiced group that exists only among elites and intellectuals. I feel that is a perversion of the term, and that the common people should be regarded as able to vote intelligently and not based on prejudice and fear, and should be expected to do so, even though they don't always do so.

I am thankful for your agreement on some of this, Isoko. I am not sure if caesarism and trumpism will rebound from their expected loss in 2020. I have predicted a progressive turn for this decade, which is the same as the remainder of this 4T, and I hope it happens despite the blocks Republicans have erected, but a return to more conservative policies can always happen in a first turning. As of now though, I think some activism and progress will continue too through the 2030s, and despite some power grabs by some kind of caesarism (or I just call it the economic powers and corporate globalists) in the early 2040s, the trend is for the tide of activism to swell toward the next Awakening in the later 2040s, the climax of the cycle of revolution that began in the 1960s.

I think the America First turn spearheaded by Trump is unlikely to prevail in the future. Trade deals and tariffs are still needed, but are hard to get right. Immigration could have been handled by the bipartisan senate bill under Obama that was shot down by the then-reactionary Tea Party House of Representatives. The House is now Democratic, and the Senate will likely be so too by a narrow or modest margin, so this bill could be re-introduced and passed, and this could lead to Trumpist xenophobia being a passing phase belonging to one candidate's strategy. The age of rampant refugees which I predicted for the 2010s and happened just as I predicted will be receding. So also, engagement with the world, with Europe and Asia, will be restored after Trump. The USA has world responsibilities, including restoring arms control, the Iran Agreement and the Paris Climate accord, and reopening detente with Cuba too, but the trend under both Obama and Trump should (I hope) continue back toward multi-lateral approaches rather than the USA being the self-righteous and cowboy-like policeman of the world. That job of managing conflict and restraining rogue aggression belongs to the UN, which I hope will get stronger with restored USA support. Even so, I have seen in the signs a strong likelihood of USA involvement in war at mid-decade. It could be both civil and foreign. We'll see if trends of opinion toward peace will restrain and transform this war cycle. It hasn't much so far.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-11-2020, 01:26 PM)Isoko Wrote: To be honest, I think the Republicans will tone down on Trump's racial rhetoric but they will keep key policies that work with American voters. Combating illegal immigration, "America First" economic policies, slowly withdrawing from Europe and Asia, etc. I would say that with such policies and a smart candidate, Republicans could do well in future elections.

I think Trump has done to the Republican Party what Reagan did. He has transformed what the party stands for and there is no going back. Moderate those views, include other ethnic groups rather then catering to the white only crowd and you do have a winning formula.

Trumps racial rhetoric? What racial rhetoric? As far as I know, there's nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade in this country. Trump's an older New York businessman from Queens who doesn't worry or pay attention to political correctness. In a sense, Trump is the only candidate that can keep the country together at this point. He looses. the Democrats loose most of the country and that will be very clear to everyone over the next four years. You see, the center left Republicans are nice but the center rights and the hard right aren't as nice and can do a shit load of damage and cause all kinds of problems for the Democrats without violence. So, keep that in mind. Right now, the Democrats in the middle are paying a lot lip service to portions of Trump's agenda but the Democrats in control don't care about the country and they've already made that very clear to the American people. The Democratic party is more or less a brand and a corporation of it's own device at this point. There is nothing real about it at this point. The only thing clear about it is it wants power, needs power and has to take power now and drastically change things to keep power.

I'm  amazed at how everything can be so easily turned into racism or an issue relating to race by those on the Left these days. Isoko, is your country reliant upon our country for anything important these days? If it is, you better pray that Biden doesn't win. If Biden wins, there's going to be a run on the banks and a major withdraw from the market because no one wise or no one with common sense has an once of faith in either Democratic candidate or the Democratic party at this point.

The Republican side has minorities too. It just doesn't have as many of them as the Democratic side these days. Plus, they're viewed as our equals and aren't viewed as minorities by those on the Democratic side. The same goes for the women on the Republican side as well.  The reason the Democratic party has more minorities is because the Left uses the fear of racism and hatred associated with racism to its advantage and it promotes racism and teaches minorities that they are inferior and teaches the whites are the problem and they won't advance or survive without them and all their special protections and social programs and so forth. I'd say that half the country is well aware of this since it's so easy to see and figure out these days. I actually think the people participating in the polls are all Democrats and independents who lean Democrat and some independents who lean Republican these days.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-11-2020, 03:09 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: "Populism" today is used as a term to mean politicians appealing to prejudices and fears among the people in order to impose tyranny upon them, and suggests that there is a smarter and less-prejudiced group that exists only among elites and intellectuals. I feel that is a perversion of the term, and that the common people should be regarded as able to vote intelligently and not based on prejudice and fear, and should be expected to do so, even though they don't always do so.

The Left refers to populism as collectivism today. You should know about it since you've been directly involved with its advancement for many years. Trump's American populist movement is a direct counter to the Marxist movement. America is going to take you out at your knees dude and let you fall flat on your face,

[Classic-Xer]

(10-11-2020, 01:26 PM)Isoko Wrote: To be honest, I think the Republicans will tone down on Trump's racial rhetoric but they will keep key policies that work with American voters. Combating illegal immigration, "America First" economic policies, slowly withdrawing from Europe and Asia, etc. I would say that with such policies and a smart candidate, Republicans could do well in future elections.

I think Trump has done to the Republican Party what Reagan did. He has transformed what the party stands for and there is no going back. Moderate those views, include other ethnic groups rather then catering to the white only crowd and you do have a winning formula.

If Trump loses, the Republican party will become a more radical hard line American party like the Democratic party is today. I'm sorry but half the country is done fucking around and wasting time and money with the Democrats and could care less if the Democrats end up going broke and slaughtering themselves over the next decade, I don't think you quite grasp how mean and violent this country can become today. I can tell you this, what you see with the liberal media and what you see here is tame compared to what we could do and be able to get away with in real life. Nancy has never been in a real knock down drag fight with Americans. Nancy has never been called a CUNT to her face or seen an image of herself hanging from a tree with a rope around her neck or an image of her head on pike or saw one of her clans homes or business destroyed either. Basically, it's Trump or it's us and Nancy would be better off with Trump and the protections of the law than she would be answering to the lawless or answering to us.

[Eric the Green]

(10-12-2020, 03:06 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-11-2020, 01:26 PM)Isoko Wrote: To be honest, I think the Republicans will tone down on Trump's racial rhetoric but they will keep key policies that work with American voters. Combating illegal immigration, "America First" economic policies, slowly withdrawing from Europe and Asia, etc. I would say that with such policies and a smart candidate, Republicans could do well in future elections.

I think Trump has done to the Republican Party what Reagan did. He has transformed what the party stands for and there is no going back. Moderate those views, include other ethnic groups rather then catering to the white only crowd and you do have a winning formula.

If Trump loses, the Republican party will become a more radical hard line American party like the Democratic party is today. I'm sorry but half the country is done fucking around and wasting time and money with the Democrats and could care less if the Democrats end up going broke and slaughtering themselves over the next decade, I don't think you quite grasp how mean and violent this country can become today. I can tell you this, what you see with the liberal media and what you see here is tame compared to what we could do and be able to get away with in real life. Nancy has never been in a real knock down drag fight with Americans. Nancy has never been called a CUNT to her face or seen an image of herself hanging from a tree with a rope around her neck or an image of her head on pike or saw one of her clans homes or business destroyed either. Basically, it's Trump or it's us and Nancy would be better off with Trump and the protections of the law than she would be answering to the lawless or answering to us.

Well, we've seen their plot to murder Gov. Whitmer, which was quickly stopped, and we saw those creeps protesting her covid orders prancing around in their fatigues, jeans, MAGA hats, carrying guns and signs and not social distancing, and seen them parading in other places; not violent yet and perfectly legal, but insane. We've seen the violent Proud Boys whom Trump told to stand by for his orders, and Trump's threats to call on them. We have seen Boogaloo Boys shoot policemen and guards. We've seen Trump's un-uniformed goons attack peaceful protesters in Portland and shoot down a criminal in a hail of bullets before trial at Trump's apparent request. We have seen a vigilante shoot 3 protesters in cold blood in Kenosha. We saw Nazis run over and kill a counter-protester in Charlottesville. We have seen police kill and injure innocent people and get away with it, and we saw a few violent riots in response. Mass gun massacres motivated by prejudice have happened in places like the MME church in the South (by Dylann Roof), and in Pittsburg and El Paso among other places. We have seen hate crimes increase wherever Trump speaks, and lethal white supremacist violence is on the rise. Yes, there is violence in America today, but I'm not so sure it's any greater yet than in some other times in history.

We haven't seen lynchings yet. Nothing like the riots that destroyed black Tulsa in the early 1920s has happened yet. Black or white race riots have not yet happened on the scale of previous ones. And no civil war yet, or Bloody Kansas or Harper's Ferry, and no successful political assassinations yet like we saw in the 1960s and 70s and in 1865, 1881 and 1901. No labor unrest or repression on the scale of the late 19th and early-to-mid 20th century. Terrorist attacks like the one in Oklahoma City in 1995 haven't happened yet.

We will be much better off with Biden, a center-left experienced and level-headed politician who enforces, respects and abides by the law than with the amateur ignorant gangster tyrant fascist trump who does not do any of those things. If your right-wingers cannot abide by the law under Democratic rule in the 2020s and go violent, you will be crushed by the Democrats in power and by other governing officials of any party or none according to the law, and if you use guns they will be taken away and you are liable to be jailed or shot.

Quote:the Left refers to it as collectivism today. You should know about it since you've been directly involved with its advancement for many years. Trump's American populist movement is a direct counter to the Global Marxist movement. We're going to take you out at your knees dude.

You guys are not populists. Your anti-marxist slogans are cover for your support of the greedy economic elite who run roughshod over the people thanks to your anti-populist Party.

Just who wins and by what means is unclear in the long run. Your threats are not any evidence to consider. Elections are won by the most-skilled candidate. Biden and Trump are of about equal skill, but Trump was an unskilled president and has lost the confidence of the people. Unless he can pull off some undemocratic scheme and seize power as a tyrant, he is going to lose. But if the Democrats don't keep faith and don't vote in the 2022 midterm, as they have already failed to do so seriously in 1994 and 2010, then Biden and the Democrats will accomplish little. Also they will fail if they don't pack the Court with liberals if Barrett is rammed onto it, and remove the filibuster. It will be up to Democrats to answer the ruthless Republican tactics over these last 40 years. If they continue to be weak and afraid of your side's power and threats, they will fail in the midterms in 2022. And if they nominate Harris in 2024, they will lose the White House. So much is in the air about exactly how things go politically.

Classic Xer, I would not give up and go crazy if Biden wins. Your side should cool it and regroup. It could not be more clear, if you read the polls that we post here, that Trump is not likely to win in 2020. He has largely sealed his own fate. You can't even blame the Democrats for this. But there will be other chances for the right-wing to come back into power. It depends on demographic trends, and on the willingness of Democrats and their voters to stand up and stand tall, or not.

It is our side that is under the pressure to perform. Climate change is reaching tipping points, and our encroachment and assault on Nature has exacted its price in pandemics and pollution. If Democrats cannot act now, our Earth will become a tropical diseased hothouse, and civilization as we know it will become a miserable struggle if it survives at all amid the resulting chaos and violence. The greedy powers-that-be will continue unabated to turn our country into a banana republic of haves and have-nots, as they have already been doing for 40 years. Our democracy and justice will continue to be eroded away in favor of those rich white people who can buy it and suppress it for others.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-11-2020, 11:35 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: "Establishment" Republicans have no real home in the Trump universe unless they sell out. Some have, and this has the potential to end some political careers. Trump has failed to recognize that some supporters are toxic.

No coalition remains intact indefinitely. Obviously some pols who win anomalous victories will demonstrate the next time how anomalous their wins were. Some will prove not up to the job and lose to an opponent who promises to be a competent replacement. Some may even prove to be crooks.

The Trump base is at most 40% of the American electorate (OK, someone like Classic X'er might assert that that base is the only part of America that is truly American). 40% might be enough for winning a nomination, but it is not enough for winning a nationwide election. Obviously the 2020 election must be over before we can draw any conclusions or lessons from it.

I'd say Trump's base is about equal to the Democratic base. So, who is a Libertarian voter more likely to support this year? Biden or Trump? We've had a lot of individual freedoms trampled on this year and there are freedoms at stake as well.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-11-2020, 08:07 AM)Isoko Wrote: I actually do have to agree with you here Eric. Trump is very much an authoritian leader modeled on the Mussolini model. Just his own comments I have observed recently are quite frankly anti-democratic and more fitting for that of a dictatorship. The only thing preventing Trump from a total take over is Congress, the military and other aspects of American governance that still want to keep the democratic project alive.

You know, my wife the other day made an interesting comment about Trump. She said that not only is he finished but also the entire movement of populism is finished in America. The country is too attached to democracy to fully go down a populist path. Europe on the other hand is a different story and regularly flitters between democracy and populism (Liberal rulership vs strong man Conservative rulership) every so many generations. Trump would do quite well in a country such as Italy, Greece, even France or Poland. Heck, even here in Russia, they say the vast majority of Russians would vote for Trump...

Now this itself is an interesting debate. Trump himself is basically a caesar. America has had a taste of it yet still feel uncomfortable with the idea. For now. However, how long until another potential caesar comes along in America? Trump was in essence quite weak as caesar. He did not tear down Congress, do a march on Washington or try to get powerful people on his side. Yet could Trump be a test drive for future American politics?

Im not sure. As I said before, caesarism always does well in Europe after several generations. Even Britain is not alien to the caesar style of leadership as was the case with both Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher. Although they acted within democratic means, they still had policies that were very caesarish. Even Tony Blair exhibited these qualities during his Premier ship.

We will have to wait and see. My prediction for America is that the country will drop Trump but the democratic mandate is too weak and fractured to handle the future problems of the country. Too many MAGA people, too many economic problems down the line and a declining empire. Whether a caesar stops this, democracy rebounds and takes it head on or the country eventually fractured and secedes is anyone's guess.

Dude, an authoritarian leader wouldn't hand over authority to the states and their governors like he did with the COVID19 crisis.

[Eric the Green]

(10-12-2020, 04:12 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-11-2020, 08:07 AM)Isoko Wrote: I actually do have to agree with you here Eric. Trump is very much an authoritian leader modeled on the Mussolini model. Just his own comments I have observed recently are quite frankly anti-democratic and more fitting for that of a dictatorship. The only thing preventing Trump from a total take over is Congress, the military and other aspects of American governance that still want to keep the democratic project alive.

You know, my wife the other day made an interesting comment about Trump. She said that not only is he finished but also the entire movement of populism is finished in America. The country is too attached to democracy to fully go down a populist path. Europe on the other hand is a different story and regularly flitters between democracy and populism (Liberal rulership vs strong man Conservative rulership) every so many generations. Trump would do quite well in a country such as Italy, Greece, even France or Poland. Heck, even here in Russia, they say the vast majority of Russians would vote for Trump...

Now this itself is an interesting debate. Trump himself is basically a caesar. America has had a taste of it yet still feel uncomfortable with the idea. For now. However, how long until another potential caesar comes along in America? Trump was in essence quite weak as caesar. He did not tear down Congress, do a march on Washington or try to get powerful people on his side. Yet could Trump be a test drive for future American politics?

Im not sure. As I said before, caesarism always does well in Europe after several generations. Even Britain is not alien to the caesar style of leadership as was the case with both Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher. Although they acted within democratic means, they still had policies that were very caesarish. Even Tony Blair exhibited these qualities during his Premier ship.

We will have to wait and see. My prediction for America is that the country will drop Trump but the democratic mandate is too weak and fractured to handle the future problems of the country. Too many MAGA people, too many economic problems down the line and a declining empire. Whether a caesar stops this, democracy rebounds and takes it head on or the country eventually fractured and secedes is anyone's guess.

Dude, an authoritarian leader wouldn't hand over authority to the states and their governors like he did with the COVID19 crisis.

But he would demand that the courts hold him above the law. He would announce that he plans to get rid of the ballots so that he will continue to stay in power. He would gas and arrest peaceful protesters. He would ram a justice onto the Court who will abuse and remove the rights of workers, consumers, women, voters, Nature and more. He would staff the government with unqualified and corrupt loyalists. He would demand that his Attorney General arrest his political opponents. He would not promise a peaceful transfer of power and would call on militias and soldiers to keep him there.

The Covid crisis is exactly where he needed to exert more authority, and he failed, which will result in his loss in the election.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-12-2020, 03:22 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-12-2020, 03:06 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-11-2020, 01:26 PM)Isoko Wrote: To be honest, I think the Republicans will tone down on Trump's racial rhetoric but they will keep key policies that work with American voters. Combating illegal immigration, "America First" economic policies, slowly withdrawing from Europe and Asia, etc. I would say that with such policies and a smart candidate, Republicans could do well in future elections.

I think Trump has done to the Republican Party what Reagan did. He has transformed what the party stands for and there is no going back. Moderate those views, include other ethnic groups rather then catering to the white only crowd and you do have a winning formula.

If Trump loses, the Republican party will become a more radical hard line American party like the Democratic party is today. I'm sorry but half the country is done fucking around and wasting time and money with the Democrats and could care less if the Democrats end up going broke and slaughtering themselves over the next decade, I don't think you quite grasp how mean and violent this country can become today. I can tell you this, what you see with the liberal media and what you see here is tame compared to what we could do and be able to get away with in real life. Nancy has never been in a real knock down drag fight with Americans. Nancy has never been called a CUNT to her face or seen an image of herself hanging from a tree with a rope around her neck or an image of her head on pike or saw one of her clans homes or business destroyed either. Basically, it's Trump or it's us and Nancy would be better off with Trump and the protections of the law than she would be answering to the lawless or answering to us.

Well, we've seen their plot to murder Gov. Whitmer, which was quickly stopped, and we saw those creeps protesting her covid orders prancing around in their fatigues, jeans, MAGA hats, carrying guns and signs and not social distancing, and seen them parading in other places; not violent yet and perfectly legal, but insane. We've seen the violent Proud Boys whom Trump told to stand by for his orders, and Trump's threats to call on them. We have seen Boogaloo Boys shoot policemen and guards. We've seen Trump's un-uniformed goons attack peaceful protesters in Portland and shoot down a criminal in a hail of bullets before trial at Trump's apparent request. We have seen a vigilante shoot 3 protesters in cold blood in Kenosha. We saw Nazis run over and kill a counter-protester in Charlottesville. We have seen police kill and injure innocent people and get away with it, and we saw a few violent riots in response. Mass gun massacres motivated by prejudice have happened in places like the MME church in the South (by Dylann Roof), and in Pittsburg and El Paso among other places. We have seen hate crimes increase wherever Trump speaks, and lethal white supremacist violence is on the rise. Yes, there is violence in America today, but I'm not so sure it's any greater yet than in some other times in history.

We haven't seen lynchings yet. Nothing like the riots that destroyed black Tulsa in the early 1920s has happened yet. Black or white race riots have not yet happened on the scale of previous ones. And no civil war yet, or Bloody Kansas or Harper's Ferry, and no successful political assassinations yet like we saw in the 1960s and 70s and in 1865, 1881 and 1901. No labor unrest or repression on the scale of the late 19th and early-to-mid 20th century. Terrorist attacks like the one in Oklahoma City in 1995 haven't happened yet.

We will be much better off with Biden, a center-left experienced and level-headed politician who enforces, respects and abides by the law than with the amateur ignorant gangster tyrant fascist trump who does not do any of those things. If your right-wingers cannot abide by the law under Democratic rule in the 2020s and go violent, you will be crushed by the Democrats in power and by other governing officials of any party or none according to the law, and if you use guns they will be taken away and you are liable to be jailed or shot.

Quote:the Left refers to it as collectivism today. You should know about it since you've been directly involved with its advancement for many years. Trump's American populist movement is a direct counter to the Global Marxist movement. We're going to take you out at your knees dude.

You guys are not populists. Your anti-marxist slogans are cover for your support of the greedy economic elite who run roughshod over the people thanks to your anti-populist Party.

Just who wins and by what means is unclear in the long run. Your threats are not any evidence to consider. Elections are won by the most-skilled candidate. Biden and Trump are of about equal skill, but Trump was an unskilled president and has lost the confidence of the people. Unless he can pull off some undemocratic scheme and seize power as a tyrant, he is going to lose. But if the Democrats don't keep faith and don't vote in the 2022 midterm, as they have already failed to do so seriously in 1994 and 2010, then Biden and the Democrats will accomplish little. Also they will fail if they don't pack the Court with liberals if Barrett is rammed onto it, and remove the filibuster. It will be up to Democrats to answer the ruthless Republican tactics over these last 40 years. If they continue to be weak and afraid of your side's power and threats, they will fail in the midterms in 2022. And if they nominate Harris in 2024, they will lose the White House. So much is in the air about exactly how things go politically.

Classic Xer, I would not give up and go crazy if Biden wins. Your side should cool it and regroup. It could not be more clear, if you read the polls that we post here, that Trump is not likely to win in 2020. He has largely sealed his own fate. You can't even blame the Democrats for this. But there will be other chances for the right-wing to come back into power. It depends on demographic trends, and on the willingness of Democrats and their voters to stand up and stand tall, or not.

It is our side that is under the pressure to perform. Climate change is reaching tipping points, and our encroachment and assault on Nature has exacted its price in pandemics and pollution. If Democrats cannot act now, our Earth will become a tropical diseased hothouse, and civilization as we know it will become a miserable struggle if it survives at all amid the resulting chaos and violence. The greedy powers-that-be will continue unabated to turn our country into a banana republic of haves and have-nots, as they have already been doing for 40 years. Our democracy and justice will continue to be eroded away in favor of those rich white people who can buy it and suppress it for others.

If Gumby defeats Trump, you can expect our current depression to remain a depression and plan on a national split this time.. In short, if you can't count on the Democrats and have no faith in them and their judgement at all then you begin to pressure politicians to break with the Democrats altogether and leave them to their own devices. As I've told you before, we don't rely on the Democrats for anything like their voters mainly do these days. The Earth is going to do whatever it does and there isn't anything that you or the Democrats can do to stop it at this point.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-12-2020, 04:20 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-12-2020, 04:12 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-11-2020, 08:07 AM)Isoko Wrote: I actually do have to agree with you here Eric. Trump is very much an authoritian leader modeled on the Mussolini model. Just his own comments I have observed recently are quite frankly anti-democratic and more fitting for that of a dictatorship. The only thing preventing Trump from a total take over is Congress, the military and other aspects of American governance that still want to keep the democratic project alive.

You know, my wife the other day made an interesting comment about Trump. She said that not only is he finished but also the entire movement of populism is finished in America. The country is too attached to democracy to fully go down a populist path. Europe on the other hand is a different story and regularly flitters between democracy and populism (Liberal rulership vs strong man Conservative rulership) every so many generations. Trump would do quite well in a country such as Italy, Greece, even France or Poland. Heck, even here in Russia, they say the vast majority of Russians would vote for Trump...

Now this itself is an interesting debate. Trump himself is basically a caesar. America has had a taste of it yet still feel uncomfortable with the idea. For now. However, how long until another potential caesar comes along in America? Trump was in essence quite weak as caesar. He did not tear down Congress, do a march on Washington or try to get powerful people on his side. Yet could Trump be a test drive for future American politics?

Im not sure. As I said before, caesarism always does well in Europe after several generations. Even Britain is not alien to the caesar style of leadership as was the case with both Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher. Although they acted within democratic means, they still had policies that were very caesarish. Even Tony Blair exhibited these qualities during his Premier ship.

We will have to wait and see. My prediction for America is that the country will drop Trump but the democratic mandate is too weak and fractured to handle the future problems of the country. Too many MAGA people, too many economic problems down the line and a declining empire. Whether a caesar stops this, democracy rebounds and takes it head on or the country eventually fractured and secedes is anyone's guess.

Dude, an authoritarian leader wouldn't hand over authority to the states and their governors like he did with the COVID19 crisis.

But he would demand that the courts hold him above the law. He would announce that he plans to get rid of the ballots so that he will continue to stay in power. He would gas and arrest peaceful protesters. He would ram a justice onto the Court who will abuse and remove the rights of workers, consumers, women, voters, Nature and more. He would staff the government with unqualified and corrupt loyalists. He would demand that his Attorney General arrest his political opponents. He would not promise a peaceful transfer of power and would call on militias and soldiers to keep him there.

The Covid crisis is exactly where he needed to exert more authority, and he failed, which will result in his loss in the election.

Blah, blah, blah... You know, the sad thing is that there are millions of imbeciles and morons who believe the same as you which is why we need some more time for sorting out so to speak.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-12-2020, 03:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: We've had a lot of individual freedoms trampled on this year and there are freedoms at stake as well.

The freedom to put other’s lives at risk?

The primary grumbling about ‘loss of freedom’ seems to be about people unwilling to take precautions to prevent the spread of the bug.  In the theory, we are coming from the selfish time of the unravelling and entering a crisis time of sacrifice for others.  I personally think it is not much of a sacrifice, that helping to persevere lives is absurdly worth the effort.  Still, it has become very red symbolically not to take precautions, to put people at risk.

Do you think this will stand in the long term?  Do you think this will read well in the history books?

I see it as a big part of why the old values are going to crash and burn.  The problems confronted by society are solved in the crisis.  The new values are accepted in the long term.  The old ones become anathema.  It is an attempt to stop the cycle, to freeze ourself in the unraveling mood and culture.

This doesn’t seem to be a good issue to hang yourself for.

[Eric the Green]

(10-12-2020, 05:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-12-2020, 03:22 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-12-2020, 03:06 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-11-2020, 01:26 PM)Isoko Wrote: To be honest, I think the Republicans will tone down on Trump's racial rhetoric but they will keep key policies that work with American voters. Combating illegal immigration, "America First" economic policies, slowly withdrawing from Europe and Asia, etc. I would say that with such policies and a smart candidate, Republicans could do well in future elections.

I think Trump has done to the Republican Party what Reagan did. He has transformed what the party stands for and there is no going back. Moderate those views, include other ethnic groups rather then catering to the white only crowd and you do have a winning formula.

If Trump loses, the Republican party will become a more radical hard line American party like the Democratic party is today. I'm sorry but half the country is done fucking around and wasting time and money with the Democrats and could care less if the Democrats end up going broke and slaughtering themselves over the next decade, I don't think you quite grasp how mean and violent this country can become today. I can tell you this, what you see with the liberal media and what you see here is tame compared to what we could do and be able to get away with in real life. Nancy has never been in a real knock down drag fight with Americans. Nancy has never been called a CUNT to her face or seen an image of herself hanging from a tree with a rope around her neck or an image of her head on pike or saw one of her clans homes or business destroyed either. Basically, it's Trump or it's us and Nancy would be better off with Trump and the protections of the law than she would be answering to the lawless or answering to us.

Well, we've seen their plot to murder Gov. Whitmer, which was quickly stopped, and we saw those creeps protesting her covid orders prancing around in their fatigues, jeans, MAGA hats, carrying guns and signs and not social distancing, and seen them parading in other places; not violent yet and perfectly legal, but insane. We've seen the violent Proud Boys whom Trump told to stand by for his orders, and Trump's threats to call on them. We have seen Boogaloo Boys shoot policemen and guards. We've seen Trump's un-uniformed goons attack peaceful protesters in Portland and shoot down a criminal in a hail of bullets before trial at Trump's apparent request. We have seen a vigilante shoot 3 protesters in cold blood in Kenosha. We saw Nazis run over and kill a counter-protester in Charlottesville. We have seen police kill and injure innocent people and get away with it, and we saw a few violent riots in response. Mass gun massacres motivated by prejudice have happened in places like the MME church in the South (by Dylann Roof), and in Pittsburg and El Paso among other places. We have seen hate crimes increase wherever Trump speaks, and lethal white supremacist violence is on the rise. Yes, there is violence in America today, but I'm not so sure it's any greater yet than in some other times in history.

We haven't seen lynchings yet. Nothing like the riots that destroyed black Tulsa in the early 1920s has happened yet. Black or white race riots have not yet happened on the scale of previous ones. And no civil war yet, or Bloody Kansas or Harper's Ferry, and no successful political assassinations yet like we saw in the 1960s and 70s and in 1865, 1881 and 1901. No labor unrest or repression on the scale of the late 19th and early-to-mid 20th century. Terrorist attacks like the one in Oklahoma City in 1995 haven't happened yet.

We will be much better off with Biden, a center-left experienced and level-headed politician who enforces, respects and abides by the law than with the amateur ignorant gangster tyrant fascist trump who does not do any of those things. If your right-wingers cannot abide by the law under Democratic rule in the 2020s and go violent, you will be crushed by the Democrats in power and by other governing officials of any party or none according to the law, and if you use guns they will be taken away and you are liable to be jailed or shot.

Quote:the Left refers to it as collectivism today. You should know about it since you've been directly involved with its advancement for many years. Trump's American populist movement is a direct counter to the Global Marxist movement. We're going to take you out at your knees dude.

You guys are not populists. Your anti-marxist slogans are cover for your support of the greedy economic elite who run roughshod over the people thanks to your anti-populist Party.

Just who wins and by what means is unclear in the long run. Your threats are not any evidence to consider. Elections are won by the most-skilled candidate. Biden and Trump are of about equal skill, but Trump was an unskilled president and has lost the confidence of the people. Unless he can pull off some undemocratic scheme and seize power as a tyrant, he is going to lose. But if the Democrats don't keep faith and don't vote in the 2022 midterm, as they have already failed to do so seriously in 1994 and 2010, then Biden and the Democrats will accomplish little. Also they will fail if they don't pack the Court with liberals if Barrett is rammed onto it, and remove the filibuster. It will be up to Democrats to answer the ruthless Republican tactics over these last 40 years. If they continue to be weak and afraid of your side's power and threats, they will fail in the midterms in 2022. And if they nominate Harris in 2024, they will lose the White House. So much is in the air about exactly how things go politically.

Classic Xer, I would not give up and go crazy if Biden wins. Your side should cool it and regroup. It could not be more clear, if you read the polls that we post here, that Trump is not likely to win in 2020. He has largely sealed his own fate. You can't even blame the Democrats for this. But there will be other chances for the right-wing to come back into power. It depends on demographic trends, and on the willingness of Democrats and their voters to stand up and stand tall, or not.

It is our side that is under the pressure to perform. Climate change is reaching tipping points, and our encroachment and assault on Nature has exacted its price in pandemics and pollution. If Democrats cannot act now, our Earth will become a tropical diseased hothouse, and civilization as we know it will become a miserable struggle if it survives at all amid the resulting chaos and violence. The greedy powers-that-be will continue unabated to turn our country into a banana republic of haves and have-nots, as they have already been doing for 40 years. Our democracy and justice will continue to be eroded away in favor of those rich white people who can buy it and suppress it for others.

If Gumby defeats Trump, you can expect our current depression to remain a depression and plan on a national split this time.. In short, if you can't count on the Democrats and have no faith in them and  their judgement at all then you begin to pressure politicians to break with the Democrats altogether and leave them to their own devices. As I've told you before, we don't rely on the Democrats for anything like their voters mainly do these days. The Earth is going to do whatever it does and there isn't anything that you or the Democrats can do to stop it at this point.

The Democrats may fail, and if they do, it is curtains for the USA. How long the crumbling takes is up in the air. The Democrats don't answer to your prejudices and false values, that is true. But they must do something about what humans have done to the Earth, and they can. But it may put you out of business if you can't adapt.

Democrats always do better with the economy, because they include government spending and don't rely on the trickle-down theory.

Quote:Blah, blah, blah... You know, the sad thing is that there are millions of imbeciles and morons who believe the same as you which is why we need some more time for sorting out so to speak.

And some of them are Republicans like those former Republican activists in the Lincoln Project, and a lot of them are independents. They have had it with Trump's caesarism. 

Trump is a reincarnate of a bad Roman Emperor and a would-be Roman Emperor fascist.

[David Horn]

(10-11-2020, 01:26 PM)Isoko Wrote: To be honest, I think the Republicans will tone down on Trump's racial rhetoric but they will keep key policies that work with American voters. Combating illegal immigration, "America First" economic policies, slowly withdrawing from Europe and Asia, etc. I would say that with such policies and a smart candidate, Republicans could do well in future elections.

I think Trump has done to the Republican Party what Reagan did. He has transformed what the party stands for and there is no going back. Moderate those views, include other ethnic groups rather then catering to the white only crowd and you do have a winning formula.

I'm not sure that there is a moderating force in the Trumpsphere that can do what you suggest.  When your message is fear and hate, you need someone to fear and hate ... period.