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(01-22-2017, 07:25 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I attended a family dinner yesterday. We had three short people with us, aged from not quite terrible two through third grade. Among the adults were the father, a member of the school board, the mother, very active among the parent teacher organizations, and my sister the retired first grade teacher. I learned about one more wrinkle in the Trump affair.
Nobody was allowed to heavily criticize Trump in front of the kids.
This is Massachusetts. Nobody in the house voted for or favors Trump in any way.
However, there was a resolve not to teach the young ones to feel unsafe, to feel their world was going to fall apart, to be afraid of their own government.
Have others seen anything similar, either now with Trump, or with Obama in recent years?
I suspect a learning experience.
My then second grader came home during the primary campaign saying "I hate Trump". I asked why and she didn't have a reason. Obviously she had been exposed to pressure at school, probably mostly from the other kids, but possibly with collusion from the teachers. We knew her teacher was a strong progressive. There was apparently at least one Trump supporter on the faculty.
So I explained about the election. Apparently other parents reacted differently, by complaining to the school; I'm sure the Trump supporters felt their kids were being politically indoctrinated and perhaps the Democrats were offended that there were any Trump supporters in the district. Eventually the district established a policy of not permitting political discussions among students in class in order to limit disruption, and requested parents to tell their kids not to discuss the election in school at all.
If the parents' district is anything like our district, no doubt they had similar experiences, and of course the job of the PTA and school board would have been to tamp down any arguments. I'd expect the couple you describe would have become allergic to political discussions that might get kids spun up.
I discuss politics pretty freely with my now third grader. Of course, I'm not under the misimpression that Trump is going to make anything fall apart.
Well, other than maybe some self delusions on the part of the left. Lots of people on the left are still in denial about Trump's win, and that might help to explain what you saw as well.
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(01-22-2017, 11:43 PM)taramarie Wrote: They still have a lot of work to do. What is horrifying to me is how some Americans admire them. What do they admire?
Putin is a strong leader who puts the interests of his nation ahead of the interests of the rest of the world. Some people like that, after eight years of what they see as a weak President who seems to think his own nation is the bad guy.
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(01-22-2017, 04:12 PM)taramarie Wrote: I take it your response to me pbrower is an add on to what i was saying? Because i feel it should be directed at Gale who seems to respect Russia for some unknown reason.
Russia is a major player in the world and that always commands a certain amount of respect even if you don't necessarily like them. If you spend a little time learning about the history of Russia then you would realize that going to war with them tends not to be survivable. Ask Napoleon and Hitler how that worked out for them. Contrary to what most Americans like believe it was Operation Barbarossa that broke Hitler's Germany during the Second World War.
Always respect a worthy opponent because it will keep you from doing something stupid.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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(01-23-2017, 01:01 AM)taramarie Wrote: Put the interest of ALL of his nation or just certain people that he approves of? Can you sit and tell me honestly that he puts the interests of all of his people first? I could say the same towards Trump and his clan too.
For me personally I could not sit there and say he was a good guy for various reasons and it is CERTAINLY not because he supposedly puts his own first. Keep in mind I will be voting for Winston Peters of NZ First. The key to understanding that party is in the party name. 
Putin puts the interests of his nation as a collective first. In foreign policy, he works to increase Russia's power and influence beyond its borders. This has little to do with his repressive domestic policies.
I don't see Putin as a good guy either; I don't like to sacrifice individual liberty for the collective, and in fact I generally dislike viewing people as collectives. I'm explaining the point of view you asked about; that doesn't mean I agree with it.
To be honest, based on the Wikipedia article, New Zealand First sounds exactly like Trump, right down to siding with senior citizens and "against immigration, especially from Asia".
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(01-23-2017, 11:18 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: (01-23-2017, 01:01 AM)taramarie Wrote: Put the interest of ALL of his nation or just certain people that he approves of? Can you sit and tell me honestly that he puts the interests of all of his people first? I could say the same towards Trump and his clan too.
For me personally I could not sit there and say he was a good guy for various reasons and it is CERTAINLY not because he supposedly puts his own first.
Putin puts the interests of his nation as a collective first. In foreign policy, he works to increase Russia's power and influence beyond its borders. This has little to do with his repressive domestic policies.
Obama puts the interests of his nation as a collective first. In foreign policy, he works to protect America's power and influence beyond its borders. He needs no repressive domestic policies. (At that I consider Obama a stronger leader. Just contrast Churchill to Hitler -- Churchill did not find anyone under his rule who needed to be 'rubbed out' to enhance his power. Hitler had many real and imagined enemies to murder).
Quote:I don't see Putin as a good guy either; I don't like to sacrifice individual liberty for the collective, and in fact I generally dislike viewing people as collectives. I'm explaining the point of view you asked about; that doesn't mean I agree with it.
I see Donald Trump as neither good, strong, or effective. One can be effective at getting a simple thing done by giving simple orders in a bossy manner. For something more complex, like securing reforms of the economic order one needs persuasion. Donald Trump can order politicians, academics, media, and government bureaucrats as a hotel manager can order housekeepers and front-desk clerks about, but it will not work.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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01-23-2017, 03:29 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2017, 03:33 PM by Eric the Green.)
(01-23-2017, 12:39 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: (01-22-2017, 11:43 PM)taramarie Wrote: They still have a lot of work to do. What is horrifying to me is how some Americans admire them. What do they admire?
Putin is a strong leader who puts the interests of his nation ahead of the interests of the rest of the world. Some people like that, after eight years of what they see as a weak President who seems to think his own nation is the bad guy.
Some people like that. Of course, Putin is just a tyrant and an oligarch, not to mention a murderous war criminal, and I suppose a majority of Americans don't like that, and don't approve of behavior in that direction by Donald Trump. I and many Americans found Obama's recognition that our nation has made mistakes to be a strong and honest position. Characterizing Obama's foreign policy as "weak" is very inaccurate. If anything, he was too "strong" in sending drones to "kill terrorists" which also killed innocent people. He was very tough on Osama bin Laden and on the Taliban. He pulled out of Iraq according to the agreement reached with Iraq by George W Bush, and which the Iraq government insisted on. That was not "weak," and did not cause the rise of the IS. Obama and Hillary were not the "founders of ISIS" as Trump claimed; George W Bush arguably was. And so was Maliki. Obama stood up to Russian aggression in Ukraine too; a "stronger" approach might have meant starting a war with Russia, which it was not our perogative to do according to our alliance treaties. And he just sent troops into Eastern Europe to deter Russian aggression against NATO, which Trump may well reverse. So which would be "weak" in that case, pray tell?
Obama was too weak on Syria, in my opinion. Pundits focus on the "red line" that wasn't enforced, but that is unfair; not only did he get Syria with Russia's encouragement to get rid of chemical weapons, which was the objective of the red line to begin with, but when he asked congress for support, the Republicans that now complain about his "weak" foreign policy were weak themselves by not backing him up. Who knows what bombing would have accomplished anyway. But he should have sent more support earlier to the Syrian rebels, and maybe establish safe zones. The Left and anti-Hillary folks complain about US participation in the Libyan Revolution by protecting civilians subject to genocide by the dictator; something the US refused to do in Syria, with genocidal results. But in that Libyan case, again, that's a complaint that Obama and Hillary C's policies were too "strong," not too "weak."
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Two delights (irony intended):
Kellyanne Goebbels -- excuse me, Conway coined the spectacularly-fraudulent oxymoron "alternative facts".
The other: Donald Trump said to the CIA that it would be wise to seize the oil of counties that the United States defeats in war. Chris Matthews pointed out that the USA went to war with Saddam Hussein's Iraq over the invasion of Kuwait because Hussein intended to take Kuwaiti oil assets.
George Orwell and Hannah Arendt are becoming relevant to a country that we never expected them to be relevant.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(01-23-2017, 03:55 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (01-22-2017, 11:43 PM)taramarie Wrote: They still have a lot of work to do. What is horrifying to me is how some Americans admire them. What do they admire?
They are MANLY MEN and hate special snowflakes (BTW - I don't agree with these things as positives, but a large percentage of Americans, especially white males, do).
What's your view of liberal snowflakes?
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(01-23-2017, 11:46 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Two delights (irony intended):
Kellyanne Goebbels -- excuse me, Conway coined the spectacularly-fraudulent oxymoron "alternative facts".
The other: Donald Trump said to the CIA that it would be wise to seize the oil of counties that the United States defeats in war. Chris Matthews pointed out that the USA went to war with Saddam Hussein's Iraq over the invasion of Kuwait because Hussein intended to take Kuwaiti oil assets.
George Orwell and Hannah Arendt are becoming relevant to a country that we never expected them to be relevant.
I don't know which is worse, the Trump administration misleading people about the size of its crowd or the Obama administration misleading people about the reason and the facts associated with the death of a US ambassador considering they're both guilty of misleading. However, I do view one as being relatively insignificant compared to the other one. PB, if you find yourself alone with no political party left for you turn to or rely for support, it will be your own fault.
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01-24-2017, 12:59 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2017, 01:01 AM by Eric the Green.)
Trump's ridiculous and insulting behavior might be a deliberate ploy, to distract attention from all the damage he's doing to us in his mission of boosting his billionaire (and millionaire) class. Take away our easy access to the web, for example. Taking away our health insurance and medicare, and our public schools. Selling off our natural heritage to robber barons. Polluting our rivers, air and climate. Blowing up our national debt and our inequality with his tax breaks. Taking away civil rights protections so his mobs and blue thugs can beat up and kill blacks, hispanics and queers with impunity. Make more drone attacks that kill innocent people, and trying to steal Iraqi oil. Oh, and yes, taking away freedom of the press. Anything I've left out?
But his 40% followers don't care about his ridiculous behavior, although that's what the press focuses on. And the people remain ignorant about what he's really doing to them. Neat set up.
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(01-24-2017, 12:59 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump's ridiculous and insulting behavior might be a deliberate ploy, to distract attention from all the damage he's doing to us in his mission of boosting his billionaire (and millionaire) class. Take away our easy access to the web, for example. Taking away our health insurance and medicare, and our public schools. Selling off our natural heritage to robber barons. Polluting our rivers, air and climate. Blowing up our national debt and our inequality with his tax breaks. Taking away civil rights protections so his mobs and blue thugs can beat up and kill blacks, hispanics and queers with impunity. Make more drone attacks that kill innocent people, and trying to steal Iraqi oil. Oh, and yes, taking away freedom of the press. Anything I've left out?
But his 40% followers don't care about his ridiculous behavior, although that's what the press focuses on. And the people remain ignorant about what he's really doing to them. Neat set up.
Most of us will tie this together -- that only an obnoxious boor contemptuous of anyone who 'failed' to support him politically deserves severe punishment that enriches his well-heeled supporters.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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I am sure she would have found Trump to be quite banal. Putin, too. 
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01-24-2017, 02:38 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2017, 05:26 PM by Classic-Xer.)
(01-24-2017, 12:59 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump's ridiculous and insulting behavior might be a deliberate ploy, to distract attention from all the damage he's doing to us in his mission of boosting his billionaire (and millionaire) class. Take away our easy access to the web, for example. Taking away our health insurance and medicare, and our public schools. Selling off our natural heritage to robber barons. Polluting our rivers, air and climate. Blowing up our national debt and our inequality with his tax breaks. Taking away civil rights protections so his mobs and blue thugs can beat up and kill blacks, hispanics and queers with impunity. Make more drone attacks that kill innocent people, and trying to steal Iraqi oil. Oh, and yes, taking away freedom of the press. Anything I've left out?
But his 40% followers don't care about his ridiculous behavior, although that's what the press focuses on. And the people remain ignorant about what he's really doing to them. Neat set up.
It could also be a ploy to shift the focus from him to a bunch of self serving (highly partisan) people who are associated with the press who are supposed to be looking out for all of us instead of just looking out for themselves, their progressive views and political preference that's associated with themselves. As a general rule, I tend to put this group of so-called journalists/people on ignore. However, since the election of Trump, I've been watching this group more on CNN. The role of the press is not to promote fear and hatred of Republicans and smear Republican presidents. The role of the press is not to show political favoritism and advance gossip and personally connect itself with and emotionally attach itself to progressive movements. You are losing America which seems to be OK with you and those like yourself. You already know where you stand with me. You already know your value to me. You already know the value that I place on your side of the Democratic party. Just so you're clear of where we are at right now. You are OK with losing/cutting its ties with America and I'm OK with America losing/cutting its ties with people like you. I'm OK with us continuing towards that goal and allowing the natural process that's taking place to continue going on as well. Madonna is no longer a focal point/ primary image associated with a young teenage males wet dream. Values change with age.
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(01-24-2017, 02:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: However, since the election of Trump, I've been watching this group in CNN more and most of what I've been watching and seeing of them has reconfirmed my reasons for ignoring them and not trusting them for years.
How do you do this? I lost the ability to do this 15 years ago. How do you know you are not just comparing them to your own biases? Having limited time I employ this approach. I read American Conservative as it present arguments I can comprehend. I find other conservative new outlets too hard to read since there is so much asserted that ain't so. AM has less of this.
I also read Vox as my left-leaning source. Until this election I would find myself reacting adversely to AM and Vox articles in a roughly 2:1 ratio. This made sense as I was a self-identified New Deal liberal. Since the election both sites have been out of whack as far as I am concerned.
As for CNN, haven't they been a joke ever since Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370?
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I couldn't handle Vox, it was way too dumbed-down, smug, and "Here's what you should know" for me. I am no longer willing to tolerate the NYT (which I would have to pay for), so really at this point my primary news sources for non-specialized info are the Atlantic and the American Conservative, which I react to in roughly the opposite proportion that you do.
But yes, Fox News and MSNBC are ridiculous, CNN has long been a joke (especially since that Malaysia flight, which I alluded to in the Fake News thread), and all in all I find myself earnestly wishing we could throw the present crop of journalists in a blender and start from scratch.
Which is a pity, I actually used to want to be a journalist at one point. 
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(01-24-2017, 11:47 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (01-23-2017, 11:46 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Two delights (irony intended):
Kellyanne Goebbels -- excuse me, Conway coined the spectacularly-fraudulent oxymoron "alternative facts".
The other: Donald Trump said to the CIA that it would be wise to seize the oil of counties that the United States defeats in war. Chris Matthews pointed out that the USA went to war with Saddam Hussein's Iraq over the invasion of Kuwait because Hussein intended to take Kuwaiti oil assets.
George Orwell and Hannah Arendt are becoming relevant to a country that we never expected them to be relevant.
Any current prognostication and hyperbole regarding the Trump Admin aside, most Americans might know who Orwell is, but have no clue about Arendt or her brilliant analyses. BTW - Arendt was one of my favorites.
I think most people know who Hitler was too.
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(01-24-2017, 02:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (01-24-2017, 12:59 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump's ridiculous and insulting behavior might be a deliberate ploy, to distract attention from all the damage he's doing to us in his mission of boosting his billionaire (and millionaire) class. Take away our easy access to the web, for example. Taking away our health insurance and medicare, and our public schools. Selling off our natural heritage to robber barons. Polluting our rivers, air and climate. Blowing up our national debt and our inequality with his tax breaks. Taking away civil rights protections so his mobs and blue thugs can beat up and kill blacks, hispanics and queers with impunity. Make more drone attacks that kill innocent people, and trying to steal Iraqi oil. Oh, and yes, taking away freedom of the press. Anything I've left out?
But his 40% followers don't care about his ridiculous behavior, although that's what the press focuses on. And the people remain ignorant about what he's really doing to them. Neat set up.
It could also be a ploy to shift the focus from him to a bunch of self serving (highly partisan) people who are associated with the press who are supposed to be looking out for all of us instead of just looking out for themselves, their progressive views and political preference that's associated with themselves. As a general rule, I tend to put this group of so-called journalists/people on ignore. However, since the election of Trump, I've been watching this group more on CNN. The role of the press is not to promote fear and hatred of Republicans and smear Republican presidents. The role of the press is not to show political favoritism and advance gossip and personally connect itself with and emotionally attach itself to progressive movements. You are losing America which seems to be OK with you and those like yourself. You already know where you stand with me. You already know your value to me. You already know the value that I place on your side of the Democratic party. Just so you're clear of where we are at right now. You are OK with losing/cutting its ties with America and I'm OK with America losing/cutting its ties with people like you. I'm OK with us continuing towards that goal and allowing the natural process that's taking place to continue going on as well. Madonna is no longer a focal point/ primary image associated with a young teenage males wet dream. Values change with age.
You're a sucker for the Alt-Right's Orwellian narrative about actual, legitimate news being "fake news", that is what you are.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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(01-24-2017, 06:23 PM)Odin Wrote: (01-24-2017, 02:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (01-24-2017, 12:59 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump's ridiculous and insulting behavior might be a deliberate ploy, to distract attention from all the damage he's doing to us in his mission of boosting his billionaire (and millionaire) class. Take away our easy access to the web, for example. Taking away our health insurance and medicare, and our public schools. Selling off our natural heritage to robber barons. Polluting our rivers, air and climate. Blowing up our national debt and our inequality with his tax breaks. Taking away civil rights protections so his mobs and blue thugs can beat up and kill blacks, hispanics and queers with impunity. Make more drone attacks that kill innocent people, and trying to steal Iraqi oil. Oh, and yes, taking away freedom of the press. Anything I've left out?
But his 40% followers don't care about his ridiculous behavior, although that's what the press focuses on. And the people remain ignorant about what he's really doing to them. Neat set up.
It could also be a ploy to shift the focus from him to a bunch of self serving (highly partisan) people who are associated with the press who are supposed to be looking out for all of us instead of just looking out for themselves, their progressive views and political preference that's associated with themselves. As a general rule, I tend to put this group of so-called journalists/people on ignore. However, since the election of Trump, I've been watching this group more on CNN. The role of the press is not to promote fear and hatred of Republicans and smear Republican presidents. The role of the press is not to show political favoritism and advance gossip and personally connect itself with and emotionally attach itself to progressive movements. You are losing America which seems to be OK with you and those like yourself. You already know where you stand with me. You already know your value to me. You already know the value that I place on your side of the Democratic party. Just so you're clear of where we are at right now. You are OK with losing/cutting its ties with America and I'm OK with America losing/cutting its ties with people like you. I'm OK with us continuing towards that goal and allowing the natural process that's taking place to continue going on as well. Madonna is no longer a focal point/ primary image associated with a young teenage males wet dream. Values change with age.
You're a sucker for the Alt-Right's Orwellian narrative about actual, legitimate news being "fake news", that is what you are.
I dunno, Odin, lots of "fake news" in the MSM, too. Didn't you know that you're more likely to get raped in college than in a Darfur refugee camp? 
On broken glass, no less.
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01-24-2017, 06:53 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2017, 06:57 PM by Eric the Green.)
(01-24-2017, 02:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (01-24-2017, 12:59 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump's ridiculous and insulting behavior might be a deliberate ploy, to distract attention from all the damage he's doing to us in his mission of boosting his billionaire (and millionaire) class. Take away our easy access to the web, for example. Taking away our health insurance and medicare, and our public schools. Selling off our natural heritage to robber barons. Polluting our rivers, air and climate. Blowing up our national debt and our inequality with his tax breaks. Taking away civil rights protections so his mobs and blue thugs can beat up and kill blacks, hispanics and queers with impunity. Make more drone attacks that kill innocent people, and trying to steal Iraqi oil. Oh, and yes, taking away freedom of the press. Anything I've left out?
But his 40% followers don't care about his ridiculous behavior, although that's what the press focuses on. And the people remain ignorant about what he's really doing to them. Neat set up.
It could also be a ploy to shift the focus from him to a bunch of self serving (highly partisan) people who are associated with the press who are supposed to be looking out for all of us instead of just looking out for themselves, their progressive views and political preference that's associated with themselves. As a general rule, I tend to put this group of so-called journalists/people on ignore. However, since the election of Trump, I've been watching this group more on CNN. The role of the press is not to promote fear and hatred of Republicans and smear Republican presidents. The role of the press is not to show political favoritism and advance gossip and personally connect itself with and emotionally attach itself to progressive movements. You are losing America which seems to be OK with you and those like yourself. You already know where you stand with me. You already know your value to me. You already know the value that I place on your side of the Democratic party. Just so you're clear of where we are at right now. You are OK with losing/cutting its ties with America and I'm OK with America losing/cutting its ties with people like you. I'm OK with us continuing towards that goal and allowing the natural process that's taking place to continue going on as well. Madonna is no longer a focal point/ primary image associated with a young teenage males wet dream. Values change with age.
You think extreme libertarian economics and your (semi?)-racist views are natural; I think civilization is the natural unfolding of human abilities instead, and that all people are people and have responsibilities to one another, not just to themselves. No, I don't think rugged individualism is the natural human way; the natural way is cooperation and interdependence. It's OK if people like me cut ties with your red America, although I hope enough people in red America and purple America will awaken to the truth so this won't be needed. We will need to win elections again, and depose your guys from power again. Or else America both red and blue will decline and fall rapidly.
Trump's relationship with the press is narcissitic and adversarial. He calls them the worst people. He just doesn't want them to tell the truth about him; that's all there is to it. You've got your talk radio demons to put out your lies; luckily there are still journalists who report the truth, regardless of who is in power or how they try to suppress them.
You guys honestly seek to destroy Nature on land, sea and air and all wild places for future generations, and despoil the climate indefinitely. You guys want to keep people ignorant and in poverty. All this you think serves your interests, but it really doesn't.
You guys in the rust belt were deceived once again to go back to trickle down economics, in hopes that tax cuts (especially on the rich) and deregulation allowing big business to do whatever it wants to us, will somehow "make America great again." You are sadly deceived and will reap the reward of another failing economy. Tax cuts and deregulation only empowers the bosses, not the people.
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Many people will have to hit bottom before they recognize what a raw deal Donald Trump is. People will need to associate the Republican Party with declining living standards, more work but less pay, environmental degradation, shattered dreams of youth, and people dying because they are priced out of medical care, and maybe loved ones returning in body bags from wars for profit while elites flaunt extreme wealth and power.
They get a democratic alternative or they get revolution.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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