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Flynn's gone bye-bye!  If the Republicans in Congress don't start giving a shit about the potential risk of Russian infiltration in the White House the Dems need to be getting after them constantly for putting party before country. Use Trump's "America First" rhetoric against them.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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(02-09-2017, 01:00 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: (02-06-2017, 04:09 PM)Galen Wrote: (02-06-2017, 03:58 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Some people here have suggested that the Democrats and progressives must "pick their battles." I say no. The Democrats are going to need to block virtually everything, every day. They can't "pick their battles."
If Reid hadn't of eliminated the filibuster for most presidential appointments then the (Democrats -- insulting smear redacted) wouldn't be in this situation. McConnell would leave the filibuster intact but knowing that his opponents will eliminate the filibuster when an nominee they favor comes up provide him with the incentive to go nuclear at this point. The only reason they haven't now is because they are waiting to see if the Dims are going to be even remotely sane.
"Remotely sane" in your expression means that Democrats accept that their role in American political life is to acquiesce in whatever our would-be dictator Trump wants. America has never worked that way; I would prefer that the United States of America splinter into its fifty states even if some become fascist dictatorships than that the United States become one unitary Evil Empire as repressive as the Soviet Union at least in the Brezhnev era on non-economic matters. If you wonder what a society as repressive as the USSR under Brezhnev but with the freedom of economic indulgence for economic elites and near-serfdom for the poor looks like, then think of Chile under Pinochet.
Commie-style 'democratic centralism', which is anything but democratic, is fine with you so long as it serves your plutocratic dream. C'est vrai, n'est-ce pas?
(I really must practice my French in case I must move to Canada).
I've met people from Pinochet's Chile during the dictatorship. They made very clear to me that I didn't want to visit such a political nightmare even if it has spectacular scenery, a rich culture, and (in its most populous areas) climates analogous to those off coastal California. Should I have to flee America for my political beliefs, Chile would be near the top of my list of countries in which I would want refuge -- because I would rather be where people appreciate political freedom enough to stay clear of demagogues.
Quote:I don't think the (Democrats -- insulting smear again redacted) are even remotely in a position to block everything.
We Democrats are operating with 48% representation in a political system in which the 52% now operate on the principle "We won and you are done -- forever!" which is utterly novel, and contrary to 220+ years of Constitutional government. But it is compatible with dictatorship, as in China, where the nominal opposition gets to have an ineffective presence with but 30% representation. To be sure, the political culture has changed, at least with the Right becoming more rapacious and intolerant, something that this Crisis Era either corrects with a revival of freedom or endorses with the descent into tyranny.
Face it, Galen: you are no libertarian. You believe in a pure dominion of economic elites in political and economic life with the rest of Humanity obliged to suffer to the extent necessary for the maximal indulgence of those elites.
Who opened the door for 51% being able to call the shots dip shit? What's your feelings, the Democrat could do it with Obama but the Republicans can't do it with Trump. Here's the deal, the population of wayward blue brats/emotional blue twits/clueless blue idiots and the party of who represent them better wake up to the fact that half of America is sick and tired of the blues. What's going to happen with America down the road, I don't know and don't much care to be honest. We want the flag, we want the Constitution, we want our army, we want our monuments and all the occupied land land that isn't blue on the map. What state do the blues want? Sacrificing a star or two to give Americans some internal peace and quiet isn't a big deal to me? If this boils down to the haves vs the have nots, blues are going to freak over how many haves there are in America. According to the last election, there are 62,000,000 for sure who voted for Trump and several million more who voted Libertarian.
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(02-14-2017, 06:01 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (02-14-2017, 05:14 PM)Odin Wrote: Flynn's gone bye-bye! If the Republicans in Congress don't start giving a shit about the potential risk of Russian infiltration in the White House the Dems need to be getting after them constantly for putting party before country. Use Trump's "America First" rhetoric against them.
#RealNationalism is a key plank of the Real Regeneracy. Real Nationalism puts country before party.
The Republicans in Congress were harping on about Benghazi and Clinton's emails constantly, but when a Republican president has an actual scandal in which the NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR may have been compromised by a hostile foreign power all of a sudden "We need to move on and the Dems just need to quit playing politics". Fuck them! FUCK THEM! Fucking traitors the lot of them.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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(02-14-2017, 07:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: We want the flag, we want the Constitution, we want our army, we want our monuments and all the occupied land land that isn't blue on the map.
You guys obviously don't give a shit about a hostile foreign government helping your side, though. "Patriotic" my fucking ass. 
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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(02-14-2017, 07:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (02-09-2017, 01:00 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: (02-06-2017, 04:09 PM)Galen Wrote: (02-06-2017, 03:58 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Some people here have suggested that the Democrats and progressives must "pick their battles." I say no. The Democrats are going to need to block virtually everything, every day. They can't "pick their battles."
If Reid hadn't of eliminated the filibuster for most presidential appointments then the (Democrats -- insulting smear redacted) wouldn't be in this situation. McConnell would leave the filibuster intact but knowing that his opponents will eliminate the filibuster when an nominee they favor comes up provide him with the incentive to go nuclear at this point. The only reason they haven't now is because they are waiting to see if the Dims are going to be even remotely sane.
"Remotely sane" in your expression means that Democrats accept that their role in American political life is to acquiesce in whatever our would-be dictator Trump wants. America has never worked that way; I would prefer that the United States of America splinter into its fifty states even if some become fascist dictatorships than that the United States become one unitary Evil Empire as repressive as the Soviet Union at least in the Brezhnev era on non-economic matters. If you wonder what a society as repressive as the USSR under Brezhnev but with the freedom of economic indulgence for economic elites and near-serfdom for the poor looks like, then think of Chile under Pinochet.
Commie-style 'democratic centralism', which is anything but democratic, is fine with you so long as it serves your plutocratic dream. C'est vrai, n'est-ce pas?
(I really must practice my French in case I must move to Canada).
I've met people from Pinochet's Chile during the dictatorship. They made very clear to me that I didn't want to visit such a political nightmare even if it has spectacular scenery, a rich culture, and (in its most populous areas) climates analogous to those off coastal California. Should I have to flee America for my political beliefs, Chile would be near the top of my list of countries in which I would want refuge -- because I would rather be where people appreciate political freedom enough to stay clear of demagogues.
Quote:I don't think the (Democrats -- insulting smear again redacted) are even remotely in a position to block everything.
We Democrats are operating with 48% representation in a political system in which the 52% now operate on the principle "We won and you are done -- forever!" which is utterly novel, and contrary to 220+ years of Constitutional government. But it is compatible with dictatorship, as in China, where the nominal opposition gets to have an ineffective presence with but 30% representation. To be sure, the political culture has changed, at least with the Right becoming more rapacious and intolerant, something that this Crisis Era either corrects with a revival of freedom or endorses with the descent into tyranny.
Face it, Galen: you are no libertarian. You believe in a pure dominion of economic elites in political and economic life with the rest of Humanity obliged to suffer to the extent necessary for the maximal indulgence of those elites.
Who opened the door for 51% being able to call the shots (insult redacted)? What's your feelings, the Democrat could do it with Obama but the Republicans can't do it with Trump. Here's the deal, the population of wayward blue brats/emotional blue twits/clueless blue idiots and the party of who represent them better wake up to the fact that half of America is sick and tired of the blues. What's going to happen with America down the road, I don't know and don't much care to be honest. We want the flag, we want the Constitution, we want our army, we want our monuments and all the occupied land land that isn't blue on the map. What state do the blues want? Sacrificing a star or two to give Americans some internal peace and quiet isn't a big deal to me? If this boils down to the haves vs the have nots, blues are going to freak over how many haves there are in America. According to the last election, there are 62,000,000 for sure who voted for Trump and several million more who voted Libertarian.
1. We have Constitutional protections of the majority. 51% of the people do not have the right to use their power achieved in an election to exterminate, enslave, dispossess, exile, or disenfranchise the rest. Know well; even a lynch mob invariably makes its decisions on a majority vote.
2. Brats? Idiots? This time we Democrats got the smarter voters as measured in formal education. Although people can be intelligent and lack a quality education or even get a college degree (if they have an appropriate personality) while being an intellectual mediocrity, it is safe to recognize that Donald Trump made an appeal to contempt for formal learning. Donald Trump shows very infantile behavior as President.
3. A flag is just a piece of cloth. You can buy one at many stores. In America you can buy such offensive flags as those of Nazi Germany, the Confederacy, the Soviet Union, Ba'athist Iraq, Apartheid-era South Africa ... if you are into Star Trek, maybe the flags of the Klingon and Romulan Empires. Show a Nazi flag in Austria or Germany and you will be busted.
4. We liberal Democrats intend to stick around. The more that Donald Trump and Republicans in Congress and state legislatures act in crass contempt of big parts of America, the more likely it is that we will do well in the next election. Given the choice between people who act with a moral compass and people who have no moral compass, people will vote for those who show integrity. It is far safer.
5. It is not up to you to decide what the Constitution mean. We have appellate courts up to the Supreme Court to decide what due process is and to protect human rights from capricious decisions of state and federal legislation.
6. Haves versus have-nots? Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians with above-average incomes tend to vote very differently from white people in similar economic circumstances. I do not see ethnicity as a badge of honor. In any event, one might be able to divide people (not very neatly) into various economic classes - the destitute, the struggling, the people who have a little, and those who have on a big personal scale. Advantages in almost everything in life in so stratified a class society as America (and it is a class society) can be so severe that they keep people from developing their talents to the fullest.
Having decisions made for one because one comes from social disadvantage is not freedom. It is subjection. Poverty is real in America , and it stands to get even more intense as people who believe that no human suffering in the service of economic elites is excessive so long as it enhances the indulgence of economic elites can use the political process to squeeze everyone else.
A class society is a travesty of the idea of incentives to do good. I have every incentive to be born into a rich family. I did not get that choice as an infant.
7. Some of the 'haves' recognize that such goodies as they have are contingent upon the rest of America accepting their class privilege. But some have a conscience and are willing to share the wealth and economic opportunity out of either conscience or the cautionary view that angry masses pose the risk of a proletarian revolution.
8. Need I remind you of Presidential elections of 2008 and 2012, when President Obama won unambiguous majorities of the vote? Need I remind you that Donald Trump got a share of the total vote just slightly more than Dukakis won in 1988 or McCain got in 2008? That John Kerry and Mitt Romney both got bigger shares of the vote in 2004 and 2012 than did Trump in 2016?
Donald Trump acts as if he got an overwhelming majority and does nothing to earn the support of those who did not vote for him. Sure, Barack Obama tried and was ineffective, but at least he showed some respect for the other side, expecting them to hone his legislative proposals. President Trump sees disagreement as gross disloyalty to America.
We are in uncharted waters with the wrong map. The Captain is navigating the 'Screaming Sixties' (the zone of nearly-unbroken waters in teh latitudes between 50 and 60 South Latitudes with very strong winds) with a map of the comparatively-gentle Mediterranean Sea. He's trying to govern as a dictator in a country with no heritage of dictatorial rule.
We Democrats did not vote for a right-wing dictatorship that treats our principled opposition with contempt. We are trying to take America back as we can. We stand for the rights of people that the President has vilified. We are the adults.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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Unthinkable. The National Security Adviser, working for the Russians.
And, the reactionaries are defending it.
Does the word "treason" have any meaning for you, my noble debate opponents? You have certainly thrown insults my way, over time.
Maybe Reagan *did* do a deal with the Iranians over *his* election....
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(02-15-2017, 07:44 AM)Odin Wrote: (02-14-2017, 07:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: We want the flag, we want the Constitution, we want our army, we want our monuments and all the occupied land land that isn't blue on the map.
You guys obviously don't give a shit about a hostile foreign government helping your side, though. "Patriotic" my fucking ass.
Do you think that I'd have an issue with bombing the Russian people, banning Russian people from entering this country or the CIA assassinating Putin? Nope. I wouldn't have an issue with any of them. As far as you guys, you guys don't give a shit about anything other than yourselves and you'd go along with anything that helps the Democratic party and keeps their programs funded and all their special rules and protections that favor minorities and women in place. I wonder how much dirt Putin had on Hilary Clinton and the entire Democratic party that he could have used to control all of them? What do you think about all these government leaks lately and all the blue foolishness that must be helping ISIS recruiting (signs of America weakening in its resolve to destroy them and the blue Muslim sob stories of them being abused and mistreated) and Russian propaganda as well?
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(02-15-2017, 02:10 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (02-15-2017, 12:17 PM)Bad Dog Wrote: Unthinkable. The National Security Adviser, working for the Russians.
And, the reactionaries are defending it.
Does the word "treason" have any meaning for you, my noble debate opponents? You have certainly thrown insults my way, over time.
Maybe Reagan *did* do a deal with the Iranians over *his* election....
Buuu ... buuu ... buuut ... Russians are fellow Christian Solders against the Muslim heathen .... Putin's a real man's manly man ... Obama was a wimp .... Cuckservatives aren't much better .... blah ... blah .... blah ....
/Duginist "Alt-Right"
I'll say one thing about the Russians, the Russians don't seem to allow political correctness/liberal qualms to get in the way of their decisions or actions when it comes to destroying radical Muslims. Me, I'd rather have them as a military ally than a military adversary in the war that's coming with radical Islam.
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(02-15-2017, 07:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (02-15-2017, 02:10 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (02-15-2017, 12:17 PM)Bad Dog Wrote: Unthinkable. The National Security Adviser, working for the Russians.
And, the reactionaries are defending it.
Does the word "treason" have any meaning for you, my noble debate opponents? You have certainly thrown insults my way, over time.
Maybe Reagan *did* do a deal with the Iranians over *his* election....
Buuu ... buuu ... buuut ... Russians are fellow Christian Solders against the Muslim heathen .... Putin's a real man's manly man ... Obama was a wimp .... Cuckservatives aren't much better .... blah ... blah .... blah ....
/Duginist "Alt-Right"
I'll say one thing about the Russians, the Russians don't seem to allow political correctness/liberal qualms to get in the way of their decisions or actions when it comes to destroying radical Muslims. Me, I'd rather have them as a military ally than a military adversary in the war that's coming with radical Islam.
They don't even seem to even know who the radical Muslims are, when they go a-bombin'
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Well, finally a cabinet nominee rejected. Two down, many more alligators to go.
from UFW:
We have great news to share with you. News has just broken that Trump's unqualified, anti-worker nominee to be U.S. Labor Secretary, Andy Puzder, has withdrawn his nomination in the face of growing opposition by senators from both parties.
We hope he chooses for his next nominee someone who believes in enforcing and abiding by the nation's labor laws.
---------------------
CNN: Andrew Puzder withdraws as a labor secretary nominee
(CNN)Andrew Puzder has withdrawn as President Donald Trump's choice for labor secretary, a source close to Puzder and a senior administration official said.
The decision came as Senate Republicans told the White House he was losing support, a senior GOP source said, adding there were four firm Republican no votes and possibly up to 12.
Puzder needs at least 50 votes to pass with the tie-breaking vote of Vice President Mike Pence, and Republicans only hold control of 52 seats.
Puzder, the CEO of the company that owns the Hardee's and Carl's Jr. fast food chains, has faced fierce opposition mostly from Democrats in part related to his position on labor issues as well as the fact that he employed an undocumented housekeeper.
Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer fanned the flames behind the opposition to Puzder in a statement Wednesday afternoon.
"No matter how you cut it, there is no worse pick for labor secretary than Andrew Puzder, and I'm encouraged my Republican colleagues are starting to agree," the New York Democrat said. "He does not belong anywhere near the Labor Department, let alone at the head of it. Puzder's disdain for the American worker, the very people he would be responsible for protecting, is second to none."
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(02-15-2017, 07:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (02-15-2017, 02:10 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (02-15-2017, 12:17 PM)Bad Dog Wrote: Unthinkable. The National Security Adviser, working for the Russians.
And, the reactionaries are defending it.
Does the word "treason" have any meaning for you, my noble debate opponents? You have certainly thrown insults my way, over time.
Maybe Reagan *did* do a deal with the Iranians over *his* election....
Buuu ... buuu ... buuut ... Russians are fellow Christian Solders against the Muslim heathen .... Putin's a real man's manly man ... Obama was a wimp .... Cuckservatives aren't much better .... blah ... blah .... blah ....
/Duginist "Alt-Right"
I'll say one thing about the Russians, the Russians don't seem to allow political correctness/liberal qualms to get in the way of their decisions or actions when it comes to destroying radical Muslims. Me, I'd rather have them as a military ally than a military adversary in the war that's coming with radical Islam.
They don't even seem to even know who the radical Muslims are, when they go a-bombin'
Could be. But the US just can't seem to stop meddling. Why the fuck are we still dorking around in Afghanistan, Iraq,Libya,Yemen,and Syria. If we're just counting bombing locales, the US is about 5 times as stupid as Russia since we're a-bombin in 5 countries as apposed to Russia's 1.Also, yeah, they don't do PC which gets them even more brownie points.
---Value Added 
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02-15-2017, 07:56 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-15-2017, 07:58 PM by Eric the Green.)
(02-15-2017, 07:47 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (02-15-2017, 02:10 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (02-15-2017, 12:17 PM)Bad Dog Wrote: Unthinkable. The National Security Adviser, working for the Russians.
And, the reactionaries are defending it.
Does the word "treason" have any meaning for you, my noble debate opponents? You have certainly thrown insults my way, over time.
Maybe Reagan *did* do a deal with the Iranians over *his* election....
Buuu ... buuu ... buuut ... Russians are fellow Christian Solders against the Muslim heathen .... Putin's a real man's manly man ... Obama was a wimp .... Cuckservatives aren't much better .... blah ... blah .... blah ....
/Duginist "Alt-Right"
I'll say one thing about the Russians, the Russians don't seem to allow political correctness/liberal qualms to get in the way of their decisions or actions when it comes to destroying radical Muslims. Me, I'd rather have them as a military ally than a military adversary in the war that's coming with radical Islam.
They don't even seem to even know who the radical Muslims are, when they go a-bombin'
Could be. But the US just can't seem to stop meddling. Why the fuck are we still dorking around in Afghanistan, Iraq,Libya,Yemen,and Syria. If we're just counting bombing locales, the US is about 5 times as stupid as Russia since we're a-bombin in 5 countries as apposed to Russia's 1.Also, yeah, they don't do PC which gets them even more brownie points.
I would agree, but I am on board with help in fighting the IS and other violent jihadists (in eastern Syria, northern and western Iraq, and I'm not sure about Libya now). But I'm glad Obama at least reduced the drone attacks which kill innocent people. Trump is resuming this, and without competence. And Obama finally reduced support for the bloodbath in Yemen. We don't belong in that one. Afghanistan is a cluster-fuck. I don't know if we'll ever totally get out.
PC seems irrelevant; and certainly if you don't say the right things, and if you attack Putin, in Russia your "PC" is suspect and you may even be dead. And he's a war criminal. No thanks; Putin is a creep. Black marks from me; no brownie points.
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(02-15-2017, 07:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:47 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (02-15-2017, 02:10 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Buuu ... buuu ... buuut ... Russians are fellow Christian Solders against the Muslim heathen .... Putin's a real man's manly man ... Obama was a wimp .... Cuckservatives aren't much better .... blah ... blah .... blah ....
/Duginist "Alt-Right"
I'll say one thing about the Russians, the Russians don't seem to allow political correctness/liberal qualms to get in the way of their decisions or actions when it comes to destroying radical Muslims. Me, I'd rather have them as a military ally than a military adversary in the war that's coming with radical Islam.
They don't even seem to even know who the radical Muslims are, when they go a-bombin'
Could be. But the US just can't seem to stop meddling. Why the fuck are we still dorking around in Afghanistan, Iraq,Libya,Yemen,and Syria. If we're just counting bombing locales, the US is about 5 times as stupid as Russia since we're a-bombin in 5 countries as apposed to Russia's 1.Also, yeah, they don't do PC which gets them even more brownie points.
I would agree, but I am on board with help in fighting the IS and other violent jihadists (in eastern Syria, northern and western Iraq, and I'm not sure about Libya now). But I'm glad Obama at least reduced the drone attacks which kill innocent people. Trump is resuming this, and without competence. And Obama finally reduced support for the bloodbath in Yemen. We don't belong in that one. Afghanistan is a cluster-fuck. I don't know if we'll ever totally get out.
PC seems irrelevant; and certainly if you don't say the right things, and if you attack Putin, in Russia your "PC" is suspect and you may even be dead. And he's a war criminal. No thanks; Putin is a creep. Black marks from me; no brownie points.
I think our main point of disagreement is that I'm willing to just charge off the whole Mideast as a bad account and move on. Sometimes in business and I've had a few home businesses long time ago doing computer stuff. Note, there's no market for that where I live, but doing it Houston wouldn't work because property taxes would have killed me there. So, you look at proposals and check if they're worth the time/effort. Even this gets messed up and you just have to cut some projects off before total ruin and take the loss straight away.
---Value Added
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(02-15-2017, 08:05 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:47 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'll say one thing about the Russians, the Russians don't seem to allow political correctness/liberal qualms to get in the way of their decisions or actions when it comes to destroying radical Muslims. Me, I'd rather have them as a military ally than a military adversary in the war that's coming with radical Islam.
They don't even seem to even know who the radical Muslims are, when they go a-bombin'
Could be. But the US just can't seem to stop meddling. Why the fuck are we still dorking around in Afghanistan, Iraq,Libya,Yemen,and Syria. If we're just counting bombing locales, the US is about 5 times as stupid as Russia since we're a-bombin in 5 countries as apposed to Russia's 1.Also, yeah, they don't do PC which gets them even more brownie points.
I would agree, but I am on board with help in fighting the IS and other violent jihadists (in eastern Syria, northern and western Iraq, and I'm not sure about Libya now). But I'm glad Obama at least reduced the drone attacks which kill innocent people. Trump is resuming this, and without competence. And Obama finally reduced support for the bloodbath in Yemen. We don't belong in that one. Afghanistan is a cluster-fuck. I don't know if we'll ever totally get out.
PC seems irrelevant; and certainly if you don't say the right things, and if you attack Putin, in Russia your "PC" is suspect and you may even be dead. And he's a war criminal. No thanks; Putin is a creep. Black marks from me; no brownie points.
I think our main point of disagreement is that I'm willing to just charge off the whole Mideast as a bad account and move on. Sometimes in business and I've had a few home businesses long time ago doing computer stuff. Note, there's no market for that where I live, but doing it Houston wouldn't work because property taxes would have killed me there. So, you look at proposals and check if they're worth the time/effort. Even this gets messed up and you just have to cut some projects off before total ruin and take the loss straight away.
I don't really disagree. It just seems to me there's no alternative if we want to be safe from attack. And I extend that "we" to our allies in Europe, who have stood with us. But, it sure would be nice if we could pack up and leave. I especially am sick of backing Israel.
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02-16-2017, 12:53 AM
(This post was last modified: 02-16-2017, 12:55 AM by Eric the Green.)
“We have at most a year to defend American democracy, perhaps less“
http://international.sueddeutsche.de/pos...d-american
Timothy Snyder is a professor of history at Yale University and the author of numerous books of European history, including „Bloodlands“ and „Black Earth“. His most recent book, “On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century“, will be published at the end of the month. This is the English version of an interview published in Süddeutsche Zeitung on February 7, with some additional information due to current developments.
By Matthias Kolb (excerpts)
SZ: Donald Trump has been president for three weeks. How would you describe his start?
Timothy Snyder: The first thing that we have to notice is that the institutions have not thus far restrained him. He never took them seriously, acts as if they don’t exist, and clearly wishes they didn’t. The story that Americans have told themselves from the moment he declared his candidacy for president, was that one institution or another would defeat him or at least change his behavior – he won’t get the nomination; if he gets the nomination, he will be a normal Republican; he will get defeated in the general election; if he wins the presidency will mature him (that was what Obama said). I never thought any of that was true. He doesn’t seem to care about the institutions and the laws except insofar as they appear as barriers to the goal of permanent kleptocratic authoritarianism and immediate personal gratification. It is all about him all of time, it is not about the citizens and our political traditions.
I wanted to remind my fellow Americans that intelligent people, not so different from ourselves, have experienced the collapse of a republic before. (Weimar) is one example among many. Republics, like other forms of government, exist in history and can rise and fall. The American Founding Fathers knew this, which is why there were obsessed with the history of classical republics and their decline into oligarchy and empire. We seem to have lost that tradition of learning from others, and we need it back. A quarter century ago, after the collapse of communism, we declared that history was over – and in an amazing way we forgot everything we once knew about communism, fascism and National Socialism. In this little article for Slate, I was trying to remind us about things that we once knew.
How similar is the situation between Germany of the 1930s and today’s United States?
Of course, not everything is similar. Some things are better now than they were in the 1930s but some things are worse. The media is worse, I would say. It is very polarized and it is very concentrated. In Germany before the state shut down German newspapers, there was authentic variety that we don’t have now. People in the 1930s generally had longer attention spans than we do. On the other side, the United States is a larger country, with pockets of wealth distributed widely, and it is more connected to the world. The main advantage that we have is that we can learn from the 1930s. Again, it’s very important to stress that history does not repeat. But it does offer us examples and patterns, and thereby enlarges our imaginations and creates more possibilities for anticipation and resistance.
President Trump’s political strategist, Steve Bannon, has said that he wants to "make life as exciting as it was in the 1930s“. The first two weeks have shown how big his influence is, it seems much bigger than Reince Priebus’s or Jared Kushner’s.
I can’t speak to intra-White House conflicts. I can only say that Mr. Trump’s inaugural address was extremely ideological. During the campaign he used the slogan “America First” and then was informed that this was the name of a movement that tried to prevent the United States from fighting Nazi Germany and was associated with nativists and white supremacists. He claimed then not to have known that. But in the inaugural address he made “America First” his central theme, and now he can’t say that he doesn’t know what it means. And of course Bannon knows what it means. America First is precisely the conjuration of this alternative America of the 1930s where Charles Lindbergh is the hero. This inaugural address reeked of the 1930s.
When Bannon calls himself a "Leninist“, do Americans know what is he talking about?
No, they usually have no idea. It is a good question. Americans have this idea that comes from Jefferson and the American Revolution that you have to rebel every so often. And they sometimes don’t make the distinction between a rebellion against injustice and the extinction of the whole political system, which is what Bannon says that he is after. The American Revolution actually preserved ideas from Britain: the rule of law being the most important. The whole justification of the American Revolution was that the British were not living up to their own principles, were not including Americans in their own system. In a broad way that that was also the argument of the civil rights movement: the system fails itself when it does not extend equal rights to all citizens. So there can be resistance and even revolution which is about meeting standards rather than about simple destruction. What Bannon says correctly about the Bolsheviks was that they aimed to completely destroy an old regime. We can slip from one to the other very easily, from rebelliousness to a complete negation of the system. Most Americans had a rule of law state for most of their lives, African Americans are an exception, and so most Americans think this will be there forever. They don’t get that a “disruption” can actually destroy much of what they take for granted. They have no notion what it means to destroy the state and how their lives would look like if the rule of law would no longer exist. I find it frightening that people who talk about the destruction of the American state are now in charge of the American state.
Trump put a portrait of Andrew Jackson on the wall of the Oval Office, another president that was a populist. But people around him seem to have a wider agenda.
In the same interview with the Hollywood Reporter in which Bannon talks about the “exciting 1930s”, he talks about how he is operating in the darkness. He compares himself with Satan and Darth Vader and says in essence that he misleads the public and the media deliberately.
The White House statement for the Holocaust Day on January 27 didn’t mention Jews. At first it looked like a mistake but now it is official that it was intentional.
The Holocaust reference is very important on our side of the Atlantic. If Americans have a reference point in world history, it is precisely the Holocaust, the Holocaust and let’s say Normandy, the Second World War, are the one aperture into a broader history, one where republics fall and extremes triumph. So if Steve Bannon turns the Holocaust into talk about “A lot of people have suffered” what is happening is that he is closing that aperture. The next step is to say that mainly Americans are the victims. History then dies completely and we are trapped in myth.
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(02-15-2017, 07:47 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (02-15-2017, 02:10 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (02-15-2017, 12:17 PM)Bad Dog Wrote: Unthinkable. The National Security Adviser, working for the Russians.
And, the reactionaries are defending it.
Does the word "treason" have any meaning for you, my noble debate opponents? You have certainly thrown insults my way, over time.
Maybe Reagan *did* do a deal with the Iranians over *his* election....
Buuu ... buuu ... buuut ... Russians are fellow Christian Solders against the Muslim heathen .... Putin's a real man's manly man ... Obama was a wimp .... Cuckservatives aren't much better .... blah ... blah .... blah ....
/Duginist "Alt-Right"
I'll say one thing about the Russians, the Russians don't seem to allow political correctness/liberal qualms to get in the way of their decisions or actions when it comes to destroying radical Muslims. Me, I'd rather have them as a military ally than a military adversary in the war that's coming with radical Islam.
They don't even seem to even know who the radical Muslims are, when they go a-bombin'
Could be. But the US just can't seem to stop meddling. Why the fuck are we still dorking around in Afghanistan, Iraq,Libya,Yemen,and Syria. If we're just counting bombing locales, the US is about 5 times as stupid as Russia since we're a-bombin in 5 countries as apposed to Russia's 1.Also, yeah, they don't do PC which gets them even more brownie points.
Withdrawing our troops from the Middle East isn't going to stop the spread of radical Islam.
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(02-16-2017, 01:47 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:47 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (02-15-2017, 02:10 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Buuu ... buuu ... buuut ... Russians are fellow Christian Solders against the Muslim heathen .... Putin's a real man's manly man ... Obama was a wimp .... Cuckservatives aren't much better .... blah ... blah .... blah ....
/Duginist "Alt-Right"
I'll say one thing about the Russians, the Russians don't seem to allow political correctness/liberal qualms to get in the way of their decisions or actions when it comes to destroying radical Muslims. Me, I'd rather have them as a military ally than a military adversary in the war that's coming with radical Islam.
They don't even seem to even know who the radical Muslims are, when they go a-bombin'
Could be. But the US just can't seem to stop meddling. Why the fuck are we still dorking around in Afghanistan, Iraq,Libya,Yemen,and Syria. If we're just counting bombing locales, the US is about 5 times as stupid as Russia since we're a-bombin in 5 countries as apposed to Russia's 1.Also, yeah, they don't do PC which gets them even more brownie points.
Withdrawing our troops from the Middle East isn't going to stop the spread of radical Islam.
That's not my intent because military action is the wrong tool. Basically, the people there need to sort their own stuff out because we can't fix that place. It's beyond recall. I'm just demand we stop being 5 times as stupid as Russia. Besides screw Israel. I'm a citizen of Oklahoma and the United States. I'm not a citizen of the world and of course not a citizen of Israel. If Israel wants to build settlements, fine, just let them get the blow-back. We also need to stop being associated with lightning rod issues like Israel.
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(02-16-2017, 02:09 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (02-16-2017, 01:47 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:47 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'll say one thing about the Russians, the Russians don't seem to allow political correctness/liberal qualms to get in the way of their decisions or actions when it comes to destroying radical Muslims. Me, I'd rather have them as a military ally than a military adversary in the war that's coming with radical Islam.
They don't even seem to even know who the radical Muslims are, when they go a-bombin'
Could be. But the US just can't seem to stop meddling. Why the fuck are we still dorking around in Afghanistan, Iraq,Libya,Yemen,and Syria. If we're just counting bombing locales, the US is about 5 times as stupid as Russia since we're a-bombin in 5 countries as apposed to Russia's 1.Also, yeah, they don't do PC which gets them even more brownie points.
Withdrawing our troops from the Middle East isn't going to stop the spread of radical Islam.
That's not my intent because military action is the wrong tool. Basically, the people there need to sort their own stuff out because we can't fix that place. It's beyond recall. I'm just demand we stop being 5 times as stupid as Russia. Besides screw Israel. I'm a citizen of Oklahoma and the United States. I'm not a citizen of the world and of course not a citizen of Israel. If Israel wants to build settlements, fine, just let them get the blow-back. We also need to stop being associated with lightning rod issues like Israel.
What was your intent? Withdraw and watch as radical Islam takes control over most of the Middle East. Can you imagine what the world be like with radical Islamic's who are armed with nukes? A scary new world with much higher stakes than the sorta scary old world that we grew up in. I don't consider myself to be a citizen of the world either. However, I'm not foolish enough to ignore history and a couple of World Wars that could have been prevented or significantly reduced with the existence of a super power like us today. We (us and all our allies) have unbelievable military power that can be used against radical Islam within the Middle East. It's better to deal with them now over there.
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(02-16-2017, 03:10 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (02-16-2017, 02:09 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (02-16-2017, 01:47 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:47 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: They don't even seem to even know who the radical Muslims are, when they go a-bombin'
Could be. But the US just can't seem to stop meddling. Why the fuck are we still dorking around in Afghanistan, Iraq,Libya,Yemen,and Syria. If we're just counting bombing locales, the US is about 5 times as stupid as Russia since we're a-bombin in 5 countries as apposed to Russia's 1.Also, yeah, they don't do PC which gets them even more brownie points.
Withdrawing our troops from the Middle East isn't going to stop the spread of radical Islam.
That's not my intent because military action is the wrong tool. Basically, the people there need to sort their own stuff out because we can't fix that place. It's beyond recall. I'm just demand we stop being 5 times as stupid as Russia. Besides screw Israel. I'm a citizen of Oklahoma and the United States. I'm not a citizen of the world and of course not a citizen of Israel. If Israel wants to build settlements, fine, just let them get the blow-back. We also need to stop being associated with lightning rod issues like Israel.
What was your intent? Withdraw and watch as radical Islam takes control over most of the Middle East. Can you imagine what the world be like with radical Islamic's who are armed with nukes? A scary new world with much higher stakes than the sorta scary old world that we grew up in. I don't consider myself to be a citizen of the world either. However, I'm not foolish enough to ignore history and a couple of World Wars that could have been prevented or significantly reduced with the existence of a super power like us today. We (us and all our allies) have unbelievable military power that can be used against radical Islam within the Middle East. It's better to deal with them now over there.
1. Like I told Eric, I'd just let Russia and Iran take care of Syria. Both of those countries do not want radical Islam, like IS. So, for Syria, just let Assad,Russia, and Iran handle that situation. Now, since they'll screw up IS in Syria, that takes the pressure of the pieces of Iraq. Iraq isn't even a proper country. So. let's just let the Kurds or Turkey have that one. You can't pick both, it has to be either Turkey or the Kurds. I'd just let the spooks decide which one is best to support with arm shipments. No bombings , drones, etc. Afghanistan, what do you think will work? We've been there a long time and nothing's worked so far. Libya is a real stupid thing. We killed Qaddafi and left a vacuum for IS. That was just so brilliant. I can't fix that either. That's why I just said, let it go. There's nothing to fix it. The Super Power thingie is a myth. Do superpowers have 3rd world infrastructure like that damn in California and I-35 in the twin cities? The US spends more on "defense" than the rest of the world. Of course we're not dealing with them "over there". Orlando's proof of that. The best way to keep 'em out is to not let them in to begin with. I do not want the US to suffer the same fate as Europe. Europe just fucked itself in the ass with Merkel's madness. The best thing we can do wrt safety from radical Islam is to keep it out. That means no refugees allowed. Let's learn that lesson from Europe. Yeah, I know I might have triggered any special snowflakes, but oh well. This is where outcomes determine the means. Now, you ask, about retaliation. Yeah, sure, that's what drones and the Spec/OPS are for. It's 4th generation warfare, so 4th generation tactics are how you do it.
3. Uh, you indicated earlier a concern about balanced budgets. How about we cut military spending to achieve balanced budgets. I'd of course use taxes to achieve some balance. How about debt free money? And of course getting rid health insurance commpanies,VA,medicaid and just have a single proven program do all that stuff?
4. I think the meme of "if we don't meddle in a bunch of places" .... that we'll get another World War. Papa Uncle Sam has to keep all the children of the world in their place. I find that attitude rather weird and probably a meme brought into being by PNAC or something. PNAC thinks just like that. Their platform is the US always , always knows what's best for a country because we're a benevolent leech that steals with the help of assorted local elites other countries' stuff.
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(02-16-2017, 01:47 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:47 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-15-2017, 07:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (02-15-2017, 02:10 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Buuu ... buuu ... buuut ... Russians are fellow Christian Solders against the Muslim heathen .... Putin's a real man's manly man ... Obama was a wimp .... Cuckservatives aren't much better .... blah ... blah .... blah ....
/Duginist "Alt-Right"
I'll say one thing about the Russians, the Russians don't seem to allow political correctness/liberal qualms to get in the way of their decisions or actions when it comes to destroying radical Muslims. Me, I'd rather have them as a military ally than a military adversary in the war that's coming with radical Islam.
They don't even seem to even know who the radical Muslims are, when they go a-bombin'
Could be. But the US just can't seem to stop meddling. Why the fuck are we still dorking around in Afghanistan, Iraq,Libya,Yemen,and Syria. If we're just counting bombing locales, the US is about 5 times as stupid as Russia since we're a-bombin in 5 countries as apposed to Russia's 1.Also, yeah, they don't do PC which gets them even more brownie points.
Withdrawing our troops from the Middle East isn't going to stop the spread of radical Islam.
The only thing that is going to stop Islamist terrorism is when the West moves away from fossil fuels and Saudi Arabia's oil wealth dries up. It's that Saudi oil wealth that is the primary driver of Islamist terrorism through their using it to fund the proselytizing of extremist Wahhabi and Salafist doctrines, the ideological basis of groups like AQ and ISIS. Islam in Pakistan and Indonesia, for example, used to be extremely tolerant until the Saudi-funded mosques and Islamic schools started showing up.
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