Brexit Results

[Dan '82]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/...live-maps/

 Looks like "leave" has a decent chance of winning, in area where the results have come in leave is doing much better than expected.

[Ragnarök_62]

(06-23-2016, 09:06 PM)Dan Wrote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/...live-maps/

 Looks like "leave" has a decent chance of winning, in area where the results have come in leave is doing much better than expected.

W00t!!!!!!   Man, I hope this trend goes on!

I wish I may, I wish I might be able to say tomorrow:

[Eric the Green]

(06-23-2016, 09:06 PM)Dan 82 Wrote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/...live-maps/

 Looks like "leave" has a decent chance of winning, in area where the results have come in leave is doing much better than expected.

Yes; unfortunate. A boost for folks like Anthony, Classic Xer and Cynic Hero. I'm sure we'll hear from them here, trumpeting the Brits and Trump. Down with globalism; down with immigration. Blame the Muslims for everything. Deregulation. Trump is not out; fear is a big motivator for older voters. They turn out better. I have predicted that nationalism could see a resurgence in the next couple of decades. But these fearful folks can't turn back the tide in the long run. We are one species and we live on one shrinking planet.

We humans are still fools. In 1810 the romantics concluded that humanity is not yet capable of liberty, as Kenneth Clark reported. We are still not much further forward. In 2014 the Americans voted to let the lunatics take over congress. Democracy is certainly no guarantee against stupidity in government. Even in Britain. Not that royalty is any better, or the military rule that Cynic Hero wants. And assassination is still as much a campaign tactic now as it was in Caesar's time.

[Ragnarök_62]

An open letter from Greece to the common British Citizens.

Greece Wrote:Open Letter to the UK citizens about the June 2016 Referendum
Dear British voters,
United Kingdom joined the European Community in 1973 and it is worth to mention that the people have not been asked prior signing the membership agreement. Only two years later, in 1975 you decided in a referendum if you want to stay in the European Community, which was approved by 66 percent of the voters.
The basic idea, as it was explained to the people in Europe, was a community of European nations in friendship, solidarity, mutual benefit and democracy: Basic European Values.
Unfortunately, these inviting promises proved to be false or failed. There is nothing about freedom, solidarity or friendship in the European Union. The European Union has proven to act on behalf of the interest of banks, multi-national enterprises and groups in the shadow, as advised by professional think-tanks and lobbyists, not in favor of its people. In fact, the European Union is an economic union with a common market (without internal borders) which enables a free circulation of money, goods and people/workforce, and an ongoing process to harmonize business standards. The European Union is designed as a cartel and typically, there is a lack of democratic structures and processes: democracy becomes a disturbing factor.
 
Democracy, and especially direct democracy, is against any fiber of this European Union
 
The peoples’ vote got lost in the bureaucracy of the European Union. The European Union is driven by technocrats and an agenda which will lead to the United States of Europe shortly, the loss of the national sovereignty and identity of the European countries. The national parliaments have already delegated to a large extend their responsibilities and sovereignty to the European Institutions and consequently the national voting becomes more and more irrelevant.
The European Parliament, the only institution in the European Union the people voted for, has a more or less decorative function, it cannot legislate as we know it from national parliaments. The European Commission, which is in fact the European government, is not elected. It consists of delegates from the national governments. As Horst Seehofer - Prime Minister of Bavaria - put it: Those who are elected do not decide and those who decide are not elected.
European Union has a track history of ignoring the vote of the people. Referenda are only welcome if they approve the official policy of the European Union. If the people didn’t vote as requested, the governments used to arrange an information campaign and repeat the referendum until the outcome is convenient or the referendum result is ignored or twisted.
Denmark voted in the referendum in June 1992 against the Maastricht treaty, the re-negotiated version was approved in a second referendum in May 1993.  
In 2001 Irish voters rejected the Treaty of Nice, in a second referendum 2002 it was approved.
France voted in May 2005 against the proposed European Constitution. Referenda would have also to be held in Czech, Denmark, Ireland, Poland, Portugal and the UK. As the risk of more refusals was too high, the European Union decided to modify the text and sign them as treaty by the national governments, this is what we have today as Treaty of Lisbon.
We, the Greek people, voted in July 2015 against further austerity measures required by the Troika, and our vote was ignored. Prior the referendum even highest officials of the European Union warned the Greek people not to vote NO as this would lead to a Grexit, even this is not ruled in the European treaties.
In March 2016, the European Union signed a deal with Turkey on the migration crisis. Part of the deal is that the European Union takes over a quota of migrants and distributes them by a defined key within the European countries. Hungary has announced to hold a referendum on the enforced migration, this referendum was condemned as an undemocratic measure.
Some time ago, the Dutch people voted in a referendum against the EU-Ukraine agreement. EU officials mentioned in several interviews, that obviously referenda are dangerous and a threat against the European Union. Truly, referenda are dangerous to today’s E.U., but not dangerous to the people of Europe. In the meantime, there are serious discussions to prohibit referenda within the European Union in general in order to avoid further conflicts.
Even in Switzerland, the country with the most enhanced practice of referenda, the politicians fear more than anything else the vote of the people, as it may destroy their plans in case the people do not vote as they recommend them.
The European Alliance stop-TTIP is an initiative of more than 500 organizations all over Europe and has collected more than 3.4 million signatures in order to stop TTIP and CETA. Those agreements are considered as a threat to democracy, environment, consumers and labour standards. But the European Commission ignores them…
Dear friends of democracy in the UK,
We want to express our solidarity as we know that you have to take a historical decision for your country and for your people, as we did last summer.
On 23rd June 2016 you will have to decide in a referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union. A referendum is a direct democratic element, the highest expression of the peoples will, a privilege and a rare opportunity in the European Union.
You have now the historical chance to mark your national independence day and stop the further transformation of Europe into a European dictatorship.
Democracy is the key to freedom, peace and prosperity; it protects human rights and ensures respect and tolerance.
Our thoughts are with you, we send you best wishes from Greece for a democratic voting,
* * * 
List of Greek political parties, entities and persons signing the Open Letter to the UK citizens

,

So,  in this fine hour of fucking off the British have handed the EU plutocratic nomeklatura , be proud that your letter has not fallen on  deaf ears.  

Rags has some fine words for you, my friends.  Please use this inspiration to free yourself from selfsame shackles and do an Iceland.   Just a few words of advice if you care to have it.

DEFAULT NOW AND VOTE OUT YOUR QUISLING GOVERNMENT.  Like Iceland, there will be some short term pain, but think about it.  How many years has the EU been strip mining your fine nation?

[Mikebert]

Well Brexit is happening.  Dow futures are down big.  Could it finally be starting? As a frequent commenter at The American Conservative says "This is more fun than raining pork chops on Mecca"

Like talking protectionism, I see a Brexit yes vote as a good thing.  Not because it IS a good thing (the effects of either are not really known) but because it really upsets elites and THAT is a good thing.

That said, I don't think electing Trump is a good thing, even though he affects a style of poking elites in the eye. I have two reasons, first I live here, not in Britain.  If Brexit turns out to be really bad (and it could) it will not fall on me and mine. Second is I think Trump is anti-elite.  Trump IS an elite, he's a self-proclaimed member of the "billionaire class" who, according to Sanders (who I supported) have rigged the economy against the working man.  Clinton is ALSO an elite.  However, Clinton is a constrained elite, Trump is unconstrained.  When faced with an issue Clinton will respond with one of the policy options outlined in her many white papers.  When Trump is faced with an issue outside of the two or three issues he has talking about he will reach into the bag of standard Republican policies, which will give him a choice of bad and disastrous policies.  A conventional Republican will always choose the bad policy, never the disastrous ones.  Trump will probably choose randomly, and that is worrying.

For example suppose president Trump is faced with a financial crisis,  Included in his policy bag with things like bailouts and tax cuts, and modest stimulus is this:

Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate. It will purge the rottenness out of the system. High costs of living and high living will come down. People will work harder, live a more moral life...When the people get an inflation brainstorm, the only way to get it out of their blood is to let it collapse...even a panic is not altogether a bad thing.

The last establishment Republican to do this was Secretary Mellon under Harding.  Hoover tried a "kinder, gentler" version of it which led to disaster. Since then no establishment Republican has ever used it.  But it is still in the bag, and it has a contingent of noisy advocates.  A president Trump could pull this one out.  Should he do this, it will just be more pork chops, but this time they will be raining on us.

[Eric the Green]

The Europeans can reform the EU to make it more democratic if they choose. The countries are democratic. Without Britain a voice for reform and for action on climate change is leaving. The union allowed for freer commerce and mutual support. Now Germany has a much bigger role in the EU. I don't think that will be too appealing to the other members.

I don't make a prediction right now about this; I don't remember predicting such a thing for this time. Certainly the EU is in danger now. The motivating factor, as I see reported, is not a rebellion against elites, but big business that doesn't want what are probably sensible regulations on them, and fear of immigrants through free movement within the EU, including fear of loss of national identity. These are not good and proper motives. It's more like British Trumpism.

England is going more right-wing. Cameron's big re-election already showed that, although "conservative" in Britain is more like a moderate-liberal in the USA. Scotland may well now separate from the UK, and rejoin the EU. If it does, it will have to adopt the Euro and adjust to the difference in currency across "Hadrian's Wall." The Scots are more liberal, meaning that they have much more sense about things, than the stuffy, proud and old-fashioned English-- the same folks who not long ago could not stand the thought of the Falkland Islands leaving their empire.

[radind]

The desire for more autonomy was a big factor. Looks like a bad decision that will hurt the UK economically.

Quote:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...ote-nears/
… "The UK is not alone in its preference for a less centralized union. A median of 42% of Europeans across the 10 countries surveyed say they want to reclaim some powers from Brussels, while just 19% favor greater centralization (27% prefer the status quo). Only Greece, which spent much of last summer fighting the EU over a contentious debt crisis, rivals the UK in its desire for more autonomy (68% of Greeks voice this view).”…

[Bronco80]

Wow.  The 4T marches on...

OK, fellow S&H readers, what do we make of the generational breakdown here, if anything?

[pbrower2a]

The older that people are, the more nationalistic they are... the less trusting they are of social and technological change...

Also, the UK has a rather elderly population.

[Drunken Scouser]

The rights and wrongs of this to one side for a second, this is definitely the start of the 4T in the UK. The generations are perfectly aligned for it. By my judgement, the oldest UK Millennials are reaching their mid 20s, the oldest Xers their late 40s and the oldest Boomers their late 60s.

[Bronco80]

Well, Neil doesn't think it was unexpected, so maybe I'm just not thinking this through clearly right now.

https://twitter.com/HoweGeneration/statu...6441612288

[tg63]

(06-24-2016, 08:45 AM)Bronco80 Wrote: Wow.  The 4T marches on...
OK, fellow S&H readers, what do we make of the generational breakdown here, if anything?

Indeed ... Scotland has announced that as a result they are likely to hold another referendum to exit the UK; Ireland is courting Northern Ireland to consider the same ... right wing parties in France & Netherlands are using this as leverage to call for a similar vote; and the markets worldwide are trying to adjust.  

It will be interesting in particular to see how the younger generations, millies in particular, react.  While many are calling for cooler heads to prevail, if there is ever a period where dramatic change can happen quickly, this is it.

[Dan '82]

Here's an article looking at the generational aspect of this:

Quote:Younger votes have taken to social media to express anger at baby boomers who they blame for securing a Leave vote in the EU referendum.

According to the last YouGov poll before the referendum, 72% of 18 to 24-year-olds were in favour of a Remain vote, while just 19% backed Brexit.

In contrast, 34% of pensioners were in favour of Remain, while 59% favoured Brexit...



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/...or-brexit/

[Dan '82]

Spain is calling for joint control of Gibraltar

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36618796

[Dan '82]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/stat...0992644096

Is he aware the Scotland strongly opposed the Brexit?

[Ragnarök_62]

(06-24-2016, 08:45 AM)Bronco80 Wrote: Wow.  The 4T marches on...

OK, fellow S&H readers, what do we make of the generational breakdown here, if anything?

Uh, what's the picture supposed to be?  I just see a square with white shapes in it.

[Ragnarök_62]

(06-24-2016, 08:36 AM)radind Wrote: The desire for more autonomy was a big factor. Looks like a bad decision that will hurt the UK economically.

Why on earth would anyone think that considering how the EU has been raping Greece and Club Med economically?

[Ragnarök_62]

Eric The Green Wrote:The Europeans can reform the EU to make it more democratic if they choose. The countries are democratic. Without Britain a voice for reform and for action on climate change is leaving. The union allowed for freer commerce and mutual support. Now Germany has a much bigger role in the EU. I don't think that will be too appealing to the other members.

The EU can't be reformed because it's infested with globalist vermin! Did Greece get any say so on its debt problem?  Hell no, it didn't ! All the EU did is bail out Eurozone banks and left nothing, nada for the Greek people.

I say burn this bitch down.

Quote:I don't make a prediction right now about this; I don't remember predicting such a thing for this time. Certainly the EU is in danger now. The motivating factor, as I see reported, is not a rebellion against elites, but big business that doesn't want what are probably sensible regulations on them, and fear of immigrants through free movement within the EU, including fear of loss of national identity. These are not good and proper motives. It's more like British Trumpism.

It is so , rebelling against a bunch of globalist elitist pond scum.  If nobody believes me, look at this:
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focu...bout-ttip/

The TTIP is just evil, plain evil.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comm...79688.html

Quote:England is going more right-wing. Cameron's big re-election already showed that, although "conservative" in Britain is more like a moderate-liberal in the USA.

Whatever, finally, some country has the balls to reject globalist crap.  May the UKIP get some sister party here in the US.  

Quote:Scotland may well now separate from the UK, and rejoin the EU. If it does, it will have to adopt the Euro and adjust to the difference in currency across "Hadrian's Wall." The Scots are more liberal, meaning that they have much more sense about things, than the stuffy, proud and old-fashioned English-- the same folks who not long ago could not stand the thought of the Falkland Islands leaving their empire.

Scotland may as well grab a tube of lube if they want to join the EU. Their economy will get strip mined just like a whole lot of other "lesser regions".

[The Wonkette]

(06-24-2016, 11:30 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-24-2016, 08:45 AM)Bronco80 Wrote: Wow.  The 4T marches on...

OK, fellow S&H readers, what do we make of the generational breakdown here, if anything?

Uh, what's the picture supposed to be?  I just see a square with white shapes in it.

Figures showing the breakdown of Brexit votes by age:

18-24 -- 25% favoring out
25-49 -- 44%
50-64 -- 56%
65+ -- 61%

[Eric the Green]

(06-24-2016, 11:41 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: It is so , rebelling against a bunch of globalist elitist pond scum.  If nobody believes me, look at this:
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focu...bout-ttip/

The TTIP is just evil, plain evil.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comm...79688.html

I don't think I agree. TTIP confers many benefits. A trade deal between countries that are on the same level, is not bad. The TPP is bad because it lowers standards and wages for the nation at the higher level (the USA). Tariffs protect a nation from the harmful results of trading with nations at a different level. Europe and the USA have better standards and wages than Vietnam, Malaysia, etc.

Quote:Whatever, finally, some country has the balls to reject globalist crap.  May the UKIP get some sister party here in the US.  

Globalism is only wrong if it is controlled by a few big corporate powers. Otherwise, it's just the fact of life today. Hiding from it is wrong. Nations are basically just lines on a map. We already have a party that includes a USIP; it's called Republican under Donald Trump. A unified Europe in which individual nations still have a lot of control over themselves is the goal here. It prevents war and boosts the economy of a group of nations that lead the world socially and politically. The freedom of movement and commerce was cool; it was liberation from centuries of barriers.

On balance the EU is (or maybe I should say was?) more beneficial than it was oppressive by big banks and corporations. I say mend it, don't end it. I hope Britain learns its lesson and applies for re-entry in a few years, if the union still exists by then. The economic community dating from 1957 probably still will. But by the time it re-applies, England could be shorn of its "united kingdom." The price of this "rebellion" by old geezers will be two broken unions.

The generational breakdown clearly shows that young people thought the union benefited them and was not "the establishment." It was just like here in the USA; older folks are afraid and old-fashioned; deceived by the idea that their identity comes from their nationality or their race. Balderdash; it does not. But the angry old white folks won this election, because they turn out more to vote. Sounds familiar to me; very familiar. The old are keeping the young tied down to the past.

Quote:Scotland may as well grab a tube of lube if they want to join the EU. Their economy will get strip mined just like a whole lot of other "lesser regions".

Greece needs to reform itself. It can't blame Germany for imposing austerity; Germany has limits on what it can give to the other nations in trouble because of the recession CAUSED BY Republicans and neo-liberal Democrats in the USA.

Things are going so badly now, maybe I'll just do what Pete and Roger recommend: "take a glass of that light brown ale, and a purple pill."